Question To Akhbaris

[Aabiss_Shakari]

(salam)

I have few question from Akhbaris. As Akhbaris claim that there is no need of Taqleed of a Mujtahid in Islam and one can recourse to Quran and Hadiths of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s for knowing about any verdict on a issue. Therefore, i want to know what is Akhbari reply on the basis of Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s in the following Issues.

1. Is heart transplant or liver transplant allowed or not? Please provide Quranic reference or reference from hadiths of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s.

2. What is the ruling for a person who forgot to offer Tashud in prayer. As taqleed is not allowed please provide direct reference from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl ul bait a.s.

3. If you have answer from Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s regarding the aforementioned issues and you paste them here with relevant references (as i do not have direct access to so many books and i have not specialized in Islamic knowledge) and i accept this then will it not mean that I have literally followed you though you have just informed me about hadiths and Quranic verses regarding the matter in question. Will it not mean that you have taught me and I did your "Taqleed" in this issue?

I shall put more questions as the thread will proceed. Looking forward for the response of those who are against Ijtehad and Taqleed and Pseudo-Akhbaris.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

If u want to say Allah azwj has not mentioned it in quran and neither has rasool Allah saws mentioned it in ahadees. Where the heck will any ghair masoom mujtahid get his ruling from.

And if u say they have then akhbarism will b proven right.

When u want to debate then ask about the correctness and proofs for a school of thought rather than act like a sunni questioning shias.

I have Seen that u have blamed akhbaris for not Contibuting anything to shiism and that shows ur knowledge.

Ya Ali madad

[Orion]

(bismillah)

Dear Brother Aabiss_Shakari,

These pseudo-Akhbaris are here to attack Shias and disrespect our scholars. You will find them incapable of solving problems or answering any real questions. In fact if you ever want them to run away, start asking them questions. :wacko:

WS

[Aabiss_Shakari]

If u want to say Allah azwj has not mentioned it in quran and neither has rasool Allah saws mentioned it in ahadees. Where the heck will any ghair masoom mujtahid get his ruling from.

And if u say they have then akhbarism will b proven right.

When u want to debate then ask about the correctness and proofs for a school of thought rather than act like a sunni questioning shias.

I have Seen that u have blamed akhbaris for not Contibuting anything to shiism and that shows ur knowledge.

Ya Ali madad

Dear brother, I have no intention to create hatred or taunt some one. Let us come to the point and remain positive. Leave the ijtehad of Ghair e Masoom Mujtahid aside. Let us assume that "I want to get liver transplant and want to know about its legality in Islam. What is Akhbari stance on the subject? What is the approach of Akhbaris on this issue and many such like issues?"

[Aabiss_Shakari]

The correct way by which this thread can move is point-wise answers to my questions. Once these three questions are answered then i can proceed and analyse and understand Akhbaris approach. Otherwise there is no point of taunting and disrespecting each other. I hope my learned brothers will understand my point and will not reply in left and right manner.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Looking forward for the response

What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

[baradar_jackson]

What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

TAKBIR!

Allahu akbar!

Allahu akbar!

Allahu akbar!

[Kismet110]

Br Aabiss, I will insha'Allah endeavour to answer two of the questions you've posited and research on the other.

What is the ruling for a person who forgot to offer Tashud in prayer. As taqleed is not allowed please provide direct reference from Quran and sayings of Prophet (pbuh) and AhlulBayt (as).

If a person forgets to read tashahud after the first two rakats, if he remembers before the rukoo of the third rakat, then he should sit down and read tashahud. If he remembers after performing rukoo, then he should complete his prayer and make qaza of tashahud and perform two sajda sahv before speaking to anyone.

Sayings of Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) Wasail ul Shia Fourth Edition page 332 chapter 7 hadith 3

If you have answer from Quran and sayings of Ahl ul bait a.s regarding the aforementioned issues and you paste them here with relevant references (as i do not have direct access to so many books and i have not specialized in Islamic knowledge) and i accept this then will it not mean that I have literally followed you though you have just informed me about hadiths and Quranic verses regarding the matter in question. Will it not mean that you have taught me and I did your "Taqleed" in this issue?

No my good brother, you haven't done taqlid (blind emulation), just enquired on something you weren't sure of and recieved an answer per Quran or Narration. If you weren't satisfied with the answer or didn't recieve one then you'd be free to ask another person but best course would be to seek for yourself of course (and I'm sure Usoolis do the same for most day to day issues).

When Akhbari school was prominent they had scholars, laypersons went to them for advice and knowledge for issues that perplexed them.

I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

ALI

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

The correct way by which this thread can move is point-wise answers to my questions. Once these three questions are answered then i can proceed and analyse and understand Akhbaris approach. Otherwise there is no point of taunting and disrespecting each other. I hope my learned brothers will understand my point and will not reply in left and right manner.

if u have ever debated then tell me if this is the right approach?

For e.g., with Sunnis: U prove them that our imams a.s are right and their imams are wrong and there is a door from which everyone seeks. In case of usooli akhbari issue; we have believe in 12 imams a.s. In common each thinking to be following the aimma a.s and in this case u would look at differences in the way of following them and the correct way is to be found.

If we debate about fiqhi issues then I am sorry to say only a majnoon fallible will have all answers.

So chalk out differences. I will give u a hint. I say u guys are ahle usool wal ijtehaad and this is biddah. You, prove me wrong by quoting ahadis which are sahih according to ur alims(a big discount?)

or show proof of 5 usool e deen I.e., tauheed adl nabuwwat imamat qiyamat. Show me any hadees or ayat of Quran that says imams a.s have said usool e deen of Islam are these five ?

Ya Ali madad

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

JazakAllah. Anxiously waiting for your fatwa inshAllah.

[Orion]

So chalk out differences. I will give u a hint. I say u guys are ahle usool wal ijtehaad and this is biddah. You, prove me wrong by quoting ahadis which are sahih according to ur alims(a big discount?)

or show proof of 5 usool e deen I.e., tauheed adl nabuwwat imamat qiyamat. Show me any hadees or ayat of Quran that says imams a.s have said usool e deen of Islam are these five ?

(bismillah)

Br. Aabiss_Shakari, see what is going on here. To avoid answering your questions, he wants to ask you questions.

Dont fall in this trap. Keep insisting that he and other pseudo-Akhbaris answer your questions.

WS

Edited August 31, 2011 by Orion

[Maula Dha Mallang]

we have to remember that the main scholars in shia-ism were akhbari, including shaykh saduq and allama hilli.

to mock akhbarism is therefore to mock the earliest/ original model of shiaism. global internet based usoolism came along much later.

to say akhbaris havent contributed anything to our madhab is absurd.

having said that, im not akhbari nor usooli. i believe the right was is somewhere in the middle (and dont know any akhbari mujtaheds)

Edited August 31, 2011 by Maula Dha Mallang

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Br Aabiss, I will insha'Allah endeavour to answer two of the questions you've posited and research on the other.

If a person forgets to read tashahud after the first two rakats, if he remembers before the rukoo of the third rakat, then he should sit down and read tashahud. If he remembers after performing rukoo, then he should complete his prayer and make qaza of tashahud and perform two sajda sahv before speaking to anyone.

Sayings of Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) Wasail ul Shia Fourth Edition page 332 chapter 7 hadith 3

No my good brother, you haven't done taqlid (blind emulation), just enquired on something you weren't sure of and recieved an answer per Quran or Narration. If you weren't satisfied with the answer or didn't recieve one then you'd be free to ask another person but best course would be to seek for yourself of course (and I'm sure Usoolis do the same for most day to day issues).

Brother the case is not so simple often. There are often overlapping and some apparent contradictions which could not be rectified without recourse to other research tools like Rijal, mantaq and fiqh etc.

When Akhbari school was prominent they had scholars, laypersons went to them for advice and knowledge for issues that perplexed them.

Then what taqleed is brother? Obviously Usooli scholars guide the public at large in the similar manner? What is this noise about it?

I will look for the information about transplants; their is mention in Holy Quran about sanctity of human body (hence why post-mortems are a no-no) so my feeling would incline towards the negative but will check.

Do not you think this is your "Ijtehaid"? You deduced a principle from Quran "Sanctity of human body" and on the basis of you issued the fatwa that "so my feeling would incline towards the negative". But the problem is that you are not religiously qualified to do this and there is alot of chance of error and mistake but a person who is expert in this there is very much less chance of error and chance therefore, it is always advised to follow the most learned (Aalam). Akhbari methodology is self destruction and acceptance of Usooli principles.

[La fata illa Ali]

What you must realize is, only the a minority group will even attempt to answer your questions.

What the minority group will do is the following:

1. Get out their books and search tools.

2. Get the Arabic dictionary handy.

3. Get the rijaal books ready.

4. Sit for a few hours researching what you've asked.

Now this is the problem:

1. Most are likely to make an error in verdicts, because their research wasn't as thorough as it could be.

2. The research wasn't as thorough because they haven't spent a great part of their lives studying the sciences of ahadith.

3. And if they are well versed, then they are only a very small proportion of the Shia.

What happens next is:

1. They'll paste the ahadith for you.

2. They will say Scholar A says, and Scholar B says and Scholar C says from Book X and Book Y and Book Z.

What actually happened was:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris did their research in a similar way to what a Mujtahid would have.

2. They in fact practiced Ijtihad because a less knowledgeable individual who can't figure out the questions himself, asked someone who has some knowledge in the sciences.

The result is:

1. Little psuedo-akhbaris that can't tell their right hand from their left will say "hahaha see, no need for taqleed"

2. The impression that's then spread is that Taqleed isn't needed.

3. The respect for our great scholars is lost.

4. Our leadership starts coming into question as there's a breakdown in our Ummah's structure.

5. Everyone starts questioning the ability of the scholars.

6. The people are misguided.

7. The misguided help to misguide others.

We can conclude therefore that:

1. The pseudo-akhbaris are ignorant of the damage that they're doing; or

2. They know what they're doing; and/or

3. Are doing it on purpose due to politically motivated purposes or are a remnant/bi-product of previous politically motivated individuals that misguided less knowledgeable individuals.

And finally what must be done is:

1. Educate the masses about the inherent flaws of laymen self-declared Mujtahids conjuring up their own fatwas.

2. Putting a stop to such misguidance.

Alhamdulillah there seems to be a reversing trend here as more members are becoming aware of what's happening.

Good luck getting your answers :)

Long live our righteous Scholars, the ropes of our religion and the guides of our people.

Brother, This is so well written, u should make just this post a sticky. But as MDM said, lest we forget some of our greatest scholars were 'akhbaris' and not to mention, Sheikh Al-Hurr al-Aamili as well. The Author of Wasael al Shia, without which, we would be lost today.

I think the question has to be asked, Some of our greatest scholars were akhbari??? in fact, if i am misinformed, for a while, akhabarism was shiasm for an extended period of shia history.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

I think the question has to be asked, Some of our greatest scholars were akhbari??? in fact, if i am misinformed, for a while, akhabarism was shiasm for an extended period of shia history.

its a pretty safe bet that the original (akhbari) scholars were greater than any living/ recent history scholars. in fact i dont think there is any doubt about that whatsoever

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

its a pretty safe bet that the original (akhbari) scholars were greater than any living/ recent history scholars. in fact i dont think there is any doubt about that whatsoever

Allamah hilli cannot be counted as akhbari. Sheik mufeed and tusi rejected ijtehad were under the influence of mutazilla school of thought.

Sheik kulaynu, abu zaynab numani, sudooq, al astarabadi, hurr al ameli, mohsin faydh kashani, taqi majlisi, hashinm al bahraini, yusuf al bahraini were staunch akhbaris to name a few.

Baqir majlisi and nematullah jazaeri were inclined towards akhbaris but tried to maintain a middle path.

Then there were many others like mirza mohammad akhbari etc.ol

[MysticKnight]

its a pretty safe bet that the original (akhbari) scholars were greater than any living/ recent history scholars. in fact i dont think there is any doubt about that whatsoever

Why do you conclude that? On what basis and standard do you declare one superior to the other?

[Kismet110]

Brother the case is not so simple often. There are often overlapping and some apparent contradictions which could not be rectified without recourse to other research tools like Rijal, mantaq and fiqh etc.

Then what taqleed is brother? Obviously Usooli scholars guide the public at large in the similar manner? What is this noise about it?

Do not you think this is your "Ijtehaid"? You deduced a principle from Quran "Sanctity of human body" and on the basis of you issued the fatwa that "so my feeling would incline towards the negative". But the problem is that you are not religiously qualified to do this and there is alot of chance of error and mistake but a person who is expert in this there is very much less chance of error and chance therefore, it is always advised to follow the most learned (Aalam). Akhbari methodology is self destruction and acceptance of Usooli principles.

Brother, non-Usoolis don't have issue with researching to understand better, where did this myth come from?

My dear brother, I've not issued a fatwa or given an answer, that's a comment directed only at your good self coupled with my personal thought on it and nothing more for the moment. It's not binding on you or anyone else nor is it conclusive.

As br MDM has mentioned (and I alluded to) please be wary some of the great scholars of our faith were 'Akhbari' so to slander the methodology is not a good stance.

Now, on to taqlid! This is from Sayyid Sistani's risala'ah (can be viewed at http://www.al-islam.org/laws/) in the section titled "Taqlid : Following a Mujtahid":

14. If a person performs his acts for some time without taqlid of a Mujtahid, and later follows a Mujtahid, his former actions will be valid if that Mujtahid declares them to be valid, otherwise they will be treated as void.

I find the above statement shocking on many levels. How can a non-Masoom make judgement on a person's previous actions? Since when have I been responsible for your deeds and you for mine? When did Allah (SWT) pass the right to judge deeds to humans?

Allah (SWT) will hold us accountable for our beliefs & actions on the Day of Reckoning, no-one else can carry that burden for us.

May Almighty Allah (SWT) in His Infinite Wisdom and Majesty guide us all and forgive our mistakes.

ALI

Edited August 31, 2011 by Kismet110

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

mr Abbis ibn shakiri plz read this and I will tell you how akhbaris deal with issues which cannot be found in quran and sunna

Allamah Syed Baqir Musavi Khownsari in his book, 'Rowzat Ul Jannat Fi Ahwal E Ulama O Sadaat' says:

Muhammad ibin Junaid who was a resident of Baghdad, and was known by the title of KATIB (Writer), was the first person who laid the foundation of Ijtihad in the Shiite world by adopting the principles of Jurisprudence from the adversaries.

The first person to say that truth can only be reached by four sources – The Holy Quran, Coincidental traditions (Hadees), The Evidence of Reason (Aqal) and Consensus (Ijma), was Abu Huzaifa Wasil Bin Ata who was the first one to be referred to as a Mu'tazilite. He is the leader of the misguided and the father of the Mu'tazilites. He used to live in Medina and has the title Abu Huzaifa Ghazali.

It is the unanimously accepted view of all the scholars that it was Imam Shafei who first made up the principles of jurisprudence.

Note: By the way the author mentioned is a hardcore usooli and gave fatwas against akhbaris. And if you want to read more of Ibn Junaid then please refer to the introduction of Al Kafi of Sheikh Yaqub Kulayni and/or his student Abu zainab an Numani's Al Ghayba's Introdution (They both disliked ibn junaid for his Biddat)

AL KAFI - H 169, Ch. 19, h13

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn 'Isa ibn 'Ubayd from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman from Sama'a ibn Mihran who has said the following: "Once I said to (Imam) abu al-Hassan Musa, recipient of divine supreme covenant, 'May Allah keep you well, did the Messenger of Allah bring everything that people needed?' The Imam said, 'Yes, and all that they will need up to the Day of Judgment.' I then said, 'Is anything lost from it?' The Imam replied, 'No, it all is with the people to whom they belong.'"

Note: And by the way this hadees is mutawatir according to Usooli system of Ilm e Rijaal.

Hasan, Maalim, p. 268.

Shaykh Hasan's statement that the gate to knowledge (bab al ilm al-qati) is closed, because the indicators found in the extant books of hadees give nothing but zann, and mutawatir sunna has been lost.

[shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.

AL KAFI - H 1160, Ch. 108, h 83

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn abu Nasr from Hammad ibn 'Uthman from abu 'Ubayda al-Hadhdha' who has said the following: "Once I asked abu Ja'far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the capability and the words of people. The Imam recited this verse of the Holy Quran: '. . . they still have different beliefs (11:118) except those upon whom Allah has granted His mercy. For this reason He has created them. . . .' (11:119) 'O abu 'Ubayda, people face differences in search for truth and all of them will be destroyed,' said the Imam. 'I (the narrator) then asked, "What about the words of Allah: '. . . except those who receive mercy from your Lord. . . .?'" (11:119) 'The Imam said, "Such people are our followers whom He has created for His mercy. '. . . For this reason He has created them. . . .'" (11:119) '[He (Allah) has said that they are created to obey the Imam of 'Blessings' that He has mentioned in His words]: ". . . My mercy and blessings have encompassed all things. . . ." (7:156) [such 'Blessing' is the knowledge of Imam. The knowledge of 'A'immah (Leaders with Divine Authority) is from His knowledge, which has encompassed all things. They (all things) stand for our Shi'a, followers]. '[Then He has said], ". . . I shall grant mercy to those who maintain piety [do not acknowledge the authority of and obedience to those who are not of 'A'immah] . . ." (7:156)

In Ikmaal U Deen of Sheykh Saduq, it is narrated from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that: Whosoever regarded the people who do Istimbaat to be those who are other that the Prophets (a.s.) and their Households, has gone against the Commands of Allah (s.w.t.), and regarded the ignorant as their commanders (Ul Il Amr), and those devoid of guidance to be their guides, and conjecture that these are the one who do Istambaat. They thus forged lies about Allah (s.w.t.) and strayed away from the Commands of Allah (s.w.t.) and did not stay where Allah (s.w.t.) had placed His Grace. The result was that they went astray and led their followers astray as well. On the day of judgement, in from of Allah (s.w.t.) no excuse will be of any use to them.

AL KAFI - H 166, Ch. 19, h10

Muhammad ibn abu 'Abd Allah has narrated in a marfu' manner from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman who has said the following: "Once I asked (Imam) abu al-Hassan the First, 'How can I prove that Allah is one?' The Imam replied, 'O Yunus, do not be an innovator (heretic). One who depends on his personal opinion is destroyed. One who abandons the members of the family of his Prophet goes astray. Whoever abandons the book of Allah and the words of His prophet becomes an unbeliever.'"

The fourth issue concerns the probative force of qiyas al-awlawiyya and mansus al illa.

1. The mujtahids—may God be pleased with them—say that both have probative force. They make them the reason (manaat) underlying many of the legal rulings in such a way that, on some occasions, they give them priority over akhbaar which have a sanad which is classified as unsound under the new method of ˜ahadith classification.

2. As for the Akhbaris—may God sanctify their spirits—they deny probative force to both of them. They say that deducing rulings from either qiyas al-awlawiyya or mansus al illa came about because of ˜the influence of· the Sunni method ˜of deriving rulings·, since ˜for the Sunnis·, at times, the texts are unable ˜to provide rulings·.

3. Sheikh Jazaeri: I say that the true position here is that of the Akhbaris, for there are many akhbaar which declare both ˜types of analogical reasoning to be invalid in principle

Sheikh Nematullah al Jazaeri, Manba al Hayat P. 45-47

what is Qiyas mansus al illa

Qiyas mansus al illa

Qiyas mansus al illa—cases where the reason (illa) for a ruling was explicitly stated (mansusa) in a text, thereby (supposedly) enabling a simple transfer of the ruling from recorded to novel cases.

It is for this reason that Astarabadi condemns the Sunni juristic mechanism known as qiyas (analogy) in which it is necessary to know the reason behind a ruling so that this reason (illa) can be detected in a novel case, and the law extended. To know the reason behind a ruling is to know it as God knows it”, and this is impossible. For Astarabadi’s refutation of qiyas generally, see Astarabad, al-Fawaid, p. 269

An E.g. of qiyas mansus al illa

CHESS became halal recently:

Alim says: Sayed Khamanei states that it is permissable for the mukhallif to play only when he believes it is no longer a tool of gambling.

So, they thought that the illa (reason) behind chess is only gambling so if the gambling part is removed from chess then the rulings may change, so Khomeini and Khamanei did qiyas mansus al illa and applied aslaat al baraa( Imam sadiq a.s. said: Everything is Halal until proven haram)

Another example: Artificial insemination halal fatwa

Q1267: Is it permissible for a woman, whose husband is sterile, to be artificially inseminated with sperm from a non-maḥram man (other than her husband), i.e., through placing the sperm in her womb?

A: In itself there is no legal impediment to inseminating a woman with the sperm of a non-maḥram man. However, it is obligatory to avoid the preliminary steps which are ḥarām, such as looking and touching. However, the born child in this way does not belong to the husband of the woman, rather to the person who donated the sperm and the woman whose egg and womb were used in the process

So the “illa” (reason) here is that Sex did not occur and it happened without touching so Asalaat al Baraa (see above) has been applied. And the child now belongs to the donor but he probably did not think that if the baby born is a girl then she will become Na Mahram to the Husband and Mahram to the Donor.

Another example of Qiyas Mansus al Illa: 2 Women in place of 1 Man testimony is void

Question: Are they (the women) regarded equals in giving testimony?

Answer: They have equality. In ' The cow’, the first chapter of Quran, two women are found necessary to testify in the court of law where one man suffices. The reason is one of them can serve as a reminder to help vivid remembrance. There, we come to understand that women are more likely to forget a past event in this special case. Now, This Quranic verse was revealed with relevance to commercial affairs. Having few social associations, women mostly did not know much about financial and commercial subjects.

To guarantee a fair judgment, two women would testify. Similarly, to provide assurance, the testimony of two men is essential when they are more likely to forget a past event than women are.

The criterion is knowledge and awareness. Both men and women can be of equal number when they have equal knowledge.

http://saanei4.org/?view=02,01,02,6,0

Note: The illa (reason ) given by aimma a.s is that the woman can forget so there is need of another woman to remind however there could be other reasons too but Sanaei sahib just wanted to give a fatwa and void a verse of Quran by stating the Illa of Commercial transactions.

AL KAFI - H 963, Ch. 86, h 1

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad (from) ibn abu Nasr who has said the following: "About the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious: 'Who strays more than one who follows his desires without guidance from Allah? . . .' (28:50), abu al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, 'It refers to those who consider their own opinions as their religion without a true Imam from the 'A'immah (Leaders with Divine Authority).'

Al Allama defines ijtehad as exhausting effort in speculating on those legal questions which permit opinion such that no more ˜effort· can be made" Allama's book Mabadi p.240.

and

Istifragh al-faqih wusahu fi tahsill al zann bi hukm shari : Hasan's book , Maalim, p. 238).

Variants in wording of this definition are found in works of Usooli (and Sunni) usuli al fiqh, though the basic elements are retained.

Al-Muhaqqiq al-Hilli defines ijtehad as the exertion of effort to extract (istikhraj ) the legal ruling" from the texts.

Muhaqqiq, Maarij, p. 179.

Sheikh Hurr describes Zayn al Din's (a famour alim and restorer of Kaaba) regarding his own grandfather in more detail:

He used to say, The modern scholars have written much, and in their works there are many errors—may God forgive them and us. This has even caused some of them to be killed. " He was amazed that his grandfather, Shahid II, and Shahid I and al Allama used to read to Sunni scholars (qiratuhum ala ulama al amma), following their ˜that is, the Sunnis· works of Fiqh, hadith, the two usuls ( usul al fiqh and usul al din) and studying with them. He used to criticise them for this, saying, the results of this are as they are' ˜that is, the results ofthis are plain to see·. May God forgive them

Sheikh hurr al ameli's book, Amal al amil, v. 1, p. 93

Edited August 31, 2011 by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

[MysticKnight]

14. If a person performs his acts for some time without taqlid of a Mujtahid, and later follows a Mujtahid, his former actions will be valid if that Mujtahid declares them to be valid, otherwise they will be treated as void.

I find the above statement shocking on many levels. How can a non-Masoom make judgement on a person's previous actions? Since when have I been responsible for your deeds and you for mine? When did Allah (SWT) pass the right to judge deeds to humans?

Allah (SWT) will hold us accountable for our beliefs & actions on the Day of Reckoning, no-one else can carry that burden for us.

May Allah (SWT) in His Infinite Wisdom and Majesty guide us all and forgive our mistakes.

ALI

I think it means if by Shariah you have to repeat Salahs or fasts or not. That is why the Scholar based on his research decides what stance to take. I don't think he meant in the way you think.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

Allamah hilli cannot be counted as akhbari. Sheik mufeed and tusi rejected ijtehad were under the influence of mutazilla school of thought.

Sheik kulaynu, abu zaynab numani, sudooq, al astarabadi, hurr al ameli, mohsin faydh kashani, taqi majlisi, hashinm al bahraini, yusuf al bahraini were staunch akhbaris to name a few.

Baqir majlisi and nematullah jazaeri were inclined towards akhbaris but tried to maintain a middle path.

Then there were many others like mirza mohammad akhbari etc.ol

thanks for the heads up yara

Why do you conclude that? On what basis and standard do you declare one superior to the other?

after the imams, it was their work which kept the shia madhab alive, not the modern model of usoolism path.

14. If a person performs his acts for some time without taqlid of a Mujtahid, and later follows a Mujtahid, his former actions will be valid if that Mujtahid declares them to be valid, otherwise they will be treated as void.

I find the above statement shocking on many levels. How can a non-Masoom make judgement on a person's previous actions? Since when have I been responsible for your deeds and you for mine? When did Allah (SWT) pass the right to judge deeds to humans?

shocking isnt the right word, i can think of many more fitting words, but it is against site rules. does Allah accept our actions, or do our mujtahids? are we suddenly catholics, that cannot approach Allah/ masomeen without a priest in the way?

AL KAFI - H 169, Ch. 19, h13

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn 'Isa ibn 'Ubayd from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman from Sama'a ibn Mihran who has said the following: "Once I said to (Imam) abu al-Hassan Musa, recipient of divine supreme covenant, 'May Allah keep you well, did the Messenger of Allah bring everything that people needed?' The Imam said, 'Yes, and all that they will need up to the Day of Judgment.' I then said, 'Is anything lost from it?' The Imam replied, 'No, it all is with the people to whom they belong.'"

Note: And by the way this hadees is mutawatir according to Usooli system of Ilm e Rijaal.

so for the case of, say, a liver transplant, would you say that in the quran, we are allowed to eat swine/ drink alcohol if we need to in order to save our life, but we cannot transfer this to the case of the liver transplant, since we are forbidden to do qiyaas, so the liver transplant is not allowed?

Edited August 31, 2011 by Maula Dha Mallang

[MysticKnight]

after the imams, it was their work which kept the shia madhab alive, not the modern model of usoolism path.

I don't see how that can judge their level of piety, intelligence, and wisdom. That's just saying their works were important. Also, how do you know the Shia mathhab would not be kept alive, how do you know it wouldn't just be a different set of scholars you inherited from? There is many books that haven't survived, many scholars you never heard of, their books and legacy simply has been passed on for various reasons.

It's the same when it comes to the hadiths, if you didn't have these set of hadiths, you were probably bound to have another set of hadiths, the amount of hadiths that remain is very few compared to how much hadiths were narrated.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

I don't see how that can judge their level of piety, intelligence, and wisdom. That's just saying their works were important. Also, how do you know the Shia mathhab would not be kept alive, how do you know it wouldn't just be a different set of scholars you inherited from? There is many books that haven't survived, many scholars you never heard of, their books and legacy simply has been passed on for various reasons.

It's the same when it comes to the hadiths, if you didn't have these set of hadiths, you were probably bound to have another set of hadiths, the amount of hadiths that remain is very few compared to how much hadiths were narrated.

brother i dont think this is a case of "what if so and so happened" - their works are the foundation stones upon which many of the modern shia institutions (such as usoolism) are built. for this reason alone i believe that they are greater. if they were not....then im sure modern scholars would gain their teaching and their learning and their resources from other places.

[MysticKnight]

brother i dont think this is a case of "what if so and so happened" - their works are the foundation stones upon which many of the modern shia institutions (such as usoolism) are built. for this reason alone i believe that they are greater. if they were not....then im sure modern scholars would gain their teaching and their learning and their resources from other places.

I don't see the connection between your reasoning. Just because their institutions were based on these books, doesn't mean anything regarding the level of piety of these people, the level of intelligence or the level of wisdom. There is no co relationship. Also the point that other scholars and books existed that we didn't inherit from is valid.

Also I think this make the religion of God depended on fallible people. Were it not for a few fallible people, the religion would not have been established. I think that is a flaw in the system.

What if these few fallible people are not trustworthy and you assume they are trustworthy? Is the religion depended on accepting a few scholars as trustworthy?

Basically the religion being founded on a few fallibles seems not to be a strong concept.

[Orion]

Now, on to taqlid! This is from Sayyid Sistani's risala'ah (can be viewed at http://www.al-islam.org/laws/) in the section titled "Taqlid : Following a Mujtahid":

14. If a person performs his acts for some time without taqlid of a Mujtahid, and later follows a Mujtahid, his former actions will be valid if that Mujtahid declares them to be valid, otherwise they will be treated as void.

I find the above statement shocking on many levels. How can a non-Masoom make judgement on a person's previous actions? Since when have I been responsible for your deeds and you for mine? When did Allah (SWT) pass the right to judge deeds to humans?

Allah (SWT) will hold us accountable for our beliefs & actions on the Day of Reckoning, no-one else can carry that burden for us.

I dont think that fatwa is properly written in English nor is it complete. Its probably a typo.

I have checked it in Urdu, and the clarifies the issue.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

^^ mystic i think our wires are getting crossed somewhere bro

Edited August 31, 2011 by Maula Dha Mallang

[Kismet110]

^^^

I see. The website in question is a well established one but I digress, it's not unusual for translations to be inaccurate on occasion.

If you have the Urdu please post/link, thanks.

ALI

[Orion]

(bismillah)

Detailed fatwa of Ayatullah Sistani in Urdu. See # 12:

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

so for the case of, say, a liver transplant, would you say that in the quran, we are allowed to eat swine/ drink alcohol if we need to in order to save our life, but we cannot transfer this to the case of the liver transplant, since we are forbidden to do qiyaas, so the liver transplant is not allowed?

Yes Qiyas Mansus al illa is an instrument which is forbidden by Aimma a.s. and as I said it is used by usooli mujtahideen and the proofs were chess fatwa, testimony fatwa etc.

But there are certain other principles which one must be aware of to understand the difference and application of ahadees

ASL al Baraa

Originally a Sunni term adapted by Usoolis but it has a basis in our ahadees e.g.

Everything is Halal until proven Haram

كتاب من لا يحضره الفقيه — الجزء الاول

للشيخ الجليل الاقدم الصدوق أبى جعفر محمد بن على بن الحسين بن بابويه القمى

المتوفى سنة

Man la Yahdhuruhul Faqih by Shaikh Sadooq (ra) (381 AH), Volume 1

937 - عن الصادق عليه السلام أنه قال : كل شئ مطلق حتى يرد فيه نهي

937- From Imam al Sadiq(as) who said "Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."

وسائل الشيعة (آل البيت) للحر العاملي (1104 هـ) الجزء6 صفحة289

Wasail al Shia by Shaikh Hurr al Amili (1104 AH) Volume 6 Page 289

[ 7997 ] 3- قال : وقال الصادق ( عليه السلام ) : كلّ شيء مطلق حتّى يرد فيه نهي

[7997] 3- He said: Imam al Sadiq(as) said: "Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."

As I have quoted earlier this hadees

AL KAFI - H 169, Ch. 19, h13

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn 'Isa ibn 'Ubayd from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman from Sama'a ibn Mihran who has said the following: "Once I said to (Imam) abu al-Hassan Musa, recipient of divine supreme covenant, 'May Allah keep you well, did the Messenger of Allah bring everything that people needed?' The Imam said, 'Yes, and all that they will need up to the Day of Judgment.' I then said, 'Is anything lost from it?' The Imam replied, 'No, it all is with the people to whom they belong.'"

You can clearly see that Allah azwh has given everything the people needed until day of Judgment however there is another hadees so please bear up with me

Al Tauheed

حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن يحيى العطار رضي الله عنه، عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن فضال، عن داود بن فرقد، عن أبي الحسن زكريا بن يحيى، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ما حجب الله علمه عن العباد فهو موضوع عنهم

Told us Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Yahya al Attar (ra), from his father, from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Easa, from ibn Fudhal, from Dawood b. Furqad, from abi al Hasan Zakariya b. Yahya, from abi Abdullah (as) who said: "Whatever Allah(swt) concealed of His(swt) knowledge from His(swt) slaves, so it is subject/set apart (not required) from them

SO this means that we have been given those things in Quran and Sunna which we are to be questioned about and the things that we cannot find then we have this principle.

1. Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."
   

The akhbaris said that they will not issue fatwas on issues which are not mentioned in ahadees however this is a permission given by Allah azwj as an individual obligation to make our lives easier and obedience compatible with changing times.

The usoolis on the other hand gave fatwas on the issues of asl al baraa (1) to maintain their authority and the famous principle that the fatwa dies with the mujtahid is also to maintain the authority. The akhbaris don’t agree with it because fatwa based on hadees cannot die with the alim so they compiled all ahadees available together and left it for momineen as a choice either to do ehtiyaat from it or unrestrict it as there is no prohibition given on it.

So some of the major problems with usoolism today are

1. Different types of Qiyas that they use (qiyas al awalliya and qiyas mansua al illa) from an existing hadees or an ayat of quran.
   
2. Ijtehad
   
3. Ijma of ulema to derive fatwa
   
4. There is no proof of Taqleed being Wajib.
   
5. Sheikh Hurr al Ameli said: For the Usoolis, it is obligatory to act in accordance with ˜the mujtahid’s zann, even if it opposes caution. Those who argue for ijtihåd mostly rule on issues without reference to the text (al-nass (ahadees‚), and then give fatwas upon ˜those issues·. If one studies ˜the sources·, one finds that at times ˜answers to· those issues are recorded in the ˜revelatory· texts. ˜Sometimes· these differ from the fatwas ˜of the mujtahid·, and ˜at other times· they agree. (fawaid at tusiya page 449)
   

An example of point 5

i HAVE uploaded a pic so make sure compare the ahadees given below with the pic of mujtahideen

محمد بن يعقوب، عن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن سنان، عن

زياد بن المنذر قال: دخلت

على أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) وعلي خف مقشور فقال: يا زياد ما ھذا الخف

الذي أراه عليك ؟ قلت: خف

اتخذته، قال: أما علمت أن البيض من الخفاف - يعني المقشورة - من لباس

الجبابرة، وھم أول من اتخذھا

والحمر من لباس الاكاسرة وھم أول من اتخذھا ؟ والسود من لباس بني ھاشم وسنة ؟.

Ziyad bin alManzar says Imam AbiJaffar asws saw me wearing white socks when I came inside. Imam a/s said: O Ziad! what colour socks you are wearing? I replied: these socks I have got specially made for me. Imamasws said: Don’t you know pure white socks are the symbol of arrogance and so and so ( may refer to Umar and Abubakar or Phiraun and samri) are the first who used this colour. The Persian rulers first used red socks. And the black coloured socks are the tradition of the family of Hashem and it is our tradition (sunnath).

Wasailushia Vol-5,Page-63

وسمعت مشائخنا رضي الله عنهم يقولون : لا تجوز الصلاة في الطابقية ( 6 ) ولا يجوزللمعتم أن يصلي إلا وهو متحنك

( 6 ) الطابقية : العمامة التي لا حنك لها

And I (Shaikh Sadooq) heard from our blessed mashaikh (senior teachers) saying: "Not valid is the prayer in tabqiyah* and not valid is it for the amama wearer to pray unless he does tahannuk(drop an end of the turban between the shoulders).

*Tabqiyah: Amama without hanak (end of the turban dropping down between shoulders).

وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : الفرق بين المسلمين والمشركين التلحي بالعمائ

وذلك في أول الاسلام وابتدائه

And Prophet(PBUH) said "The difference between muslims and mushriks (polytheists) is hanaks (dropping an end of turban down) in turbans."

So, the case of wearing white socks is clearly against sunna however by applying Qiyas Masus al Illa; they said the Mushrikeen do not wear it now(illa=reason) so it is halal to wear it therby going against a mentioned Sunna

Note: My personal commentary has been bolded.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited August 31, 2011 by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

[Orion]

Can you see guys. Instead of answering the Questions. siraat is trying his best to convert this thread into an attack on Usoolis.

I say, ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS..

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Can you see guys. Instead of answering the Questions. siraat is trying his best to convert this thread into an attack on Usoolis.

I say, ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS..

did you read it? I answered the questiones

[Maula Dha Mallang]

wow....mashallah siraat bhaijaan, what an incredible post :huh: lol @ the pic

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Brother, This is so well written, u should make just this post a sticky. But as MDM said, lest we forget some of our greatest scholars were 'akhbaris' and not to mention, Sheikh Al-Hurr al-Aamili as well. The Author of Wasael al Shia, without which, we would be lost today.

I think the question has to be asked, Some of our greatest scholars were akhbari??? in fact, if i am misinformed, for a while, akhabarism was shiasm for an extended period of shia history.

Yes, some of the great scholars were Akhbaris. And they remain to this day some of our best scholars. This was already explained in the latter part of the post where Shahid Baqir As-Sadr (qas) was quoted -> where he explained the natural transition of the sciences between the time of the source of Akhbar (the Imams) to the transmitters (Ashaab) to those that scripted them to those that collected them (Akhbaris) to those that validated them to those that derive fatwas from them (Usoulis).

Akhbaris only had a limited role, and that was in the collection of the ahadith and validating them.

That collection has finished hundreds of years ago. There is no more hadith collection. Akhbaris no longer have a role today. New ahadith cannot be found unless archeological digs shed some new light. Therefore no real Akhbaris exist today, they're psuedo-akhbaris, or fakes. There's no purpose to psuedo-akhbaris other than regurgitate ahadith. But they'll still practice Ijtihad without admitting it, by getting Hadiths A,B,C from Books X,Y,Z and making their own fatwas. That's not Akhbarism by a long shot. Akhbaris died out, just as ahadith transmitters died out. They will both be reborn with the reappearance of Imam Al-Hujjah (ajf) ash-Shareef.

Just keep watching this thread and see how they derive fatwas from ahadith to answer the questions in the OP as if they're Mujtahids, it's pretty funny.

[Aabiss_Shakari]

Yes Qiyas Mansus al illa is an instrument which is forbidden by Aimma a.s. and as I said it is used by usooli mujtahideen and the proofs were chess fatwa, testimony fatwa etc.

But there are certain other principles which one must be aware of to understand the difference and application of ahadees

ASL al Baraa

Originally a Sunni term adapted by Usoolis but it has a basis in our ahadees e.g.

Everything is Halal until proven Haram

كتاب من لا يحضره الفقيه — الجزء الاول

للشيخ الجليل الاقدم الصدوق أبى جعفر محمد بن على بن الحسين بن بابويه القمى

المتوفى سنة

Man la Yahdhuruhul Faqih by Shaikh Sadooq (ra) (381 AH), Volume 1

937 - عن الصادق عليه السلام أنه قال : كل شئ مطلق حتى يرد فيه نهي

937- From Imam al Sadiq(as) who said "Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."

وسائل الشيعة (آل البيت) للحر العاملي (1104 هـ) الجزء6 صفحة289

Wasail al Shia by Shaikh Hurr al Amili (1104 AH) Volume 6 Page 289

[ 7997 ] 3- قال : وقال الصادق ( عليه السلام ) : كلّ شيء مطلق حتّى يرد فيه نهي

[7997] 3- He said: Imam al Sadiq(as) said: "Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."

As I have quoted earlier this hadees

AL KAFI - H 169, Ch. 19, h13

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn 'Isa ibn 'Ubayd from Yunus ibn 'Abd al-Rahman from Sama'a ibn Mihran who has said the following: "Once I said to (Imam) abu al-Hassan Musa, recipient of divine supreme covenant, 'May Allah keep you well, did the Messenger of Allah bring everything that people needed?' The Imam said, 'Yes, and all that they will need up to the Day of Judgment.' I then said, 'Is anything lost from it?' The Imam replied, 'No, it all is with the people to whom they belong.'"

You can clearly see that Allah azwh has given everything the people needed until day of Judgment however there is another hadees so please bear up with me

Al Tauheed

حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن يحيى العطار رضي الله عنه، عن أبيه، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن ابن فضال، عن داود بن فرقد، عن أبي الحسن زكريا بن يحيى، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: ما حجب الله علمه عن العباد فهو موضوع عنهم

Told us Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Yahya al Attar (ra), from his father, from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Easa, from ibn Fudhal, from Dawood b. Furqad, from abi al Hasan Zakariya b. Yahya, from abi Abdullah (as) who said: "Whatever Allah(swt) concealed of His(swt) knowledge from His(swt) slaves, so it is subject/set apart (not required) from them

SO this means that we have been given those things in Quran and Sunna which we are to be questioned about and the things that we cannot find then we have this principle.

1. Everything is unrestricted until a prohibition is given on it."
   

The akhbaris said that they will not issue fatwas on issues which are not mentioned in ahadees however this is a permission given by Allah azwj as an individual obligation to make our lives easier and obedience compatible with changing times.

The usoolis on the other hand gave fatwas on the issues of asl al baraa (1) to maintain their authority and the famous principle that the fatwa dies with the mujtahid is also to maintain the authority. The akhbaris don’t agree with it because fatwa based on hadees cannot die with the alim so they compiled all ahadees available together and left it for momineen as a choice either to do ehtiyaat from it or unrestrict it as there is no prohibition given on it.

So some of the major problems with usoolism today are

1. Different types of Qiyas that they use (qiyas al awalliya and qiyas mansua al illa) from an existing hadees or an ayat of quran.
   
2. Ijtehad
   
3. Ijma of ulema to derive fatwa
   
4. There is no proof of Taqleed being Wajib.
   
5. Sheikh Hurr al Ameli said: For the Usoolis, it is obligatory to act in accordance with ˜the mujtahid’s zann, even if it opposes caution. Those who argue for ijtihåd mostly rule on issues without reference to the text (al-nass (ahadees‚), and then give fatwas upon ˜those issues·. If one studies ˜the sources·, one finds that at times ˜answers to· those issues are recorded in the ˜revelatory· texts. ˜Sometimes· these differ from the fatwas ˜of the mujtahid·, and ˜at other times· they agree. (fawaid at tusiya page 449)
   

An example of point 5

i HAVE uploaded a pic so make sure compare the ahadees given below with the pic of mujtahideen

محمد بن يعقوب، عن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن سنان، عن

زياد بن المنذر قال: دخلت

على أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) وعلي خف مقشور فقال: يا زياد ما ھذا الخف

الذي أراه عليك ؟ قلت: خف

اتخذته، قال: أما علمت أن البيض من الخفاف - يعني المقشورة - من لباس

الجبابرة، وھم أول من اتخذھا

والحمر من لباس الاكاسرة وھم أول من اتخذھا ؟ والسود من لباس بني ھاشم وسنة ؟.

Ziyad bin alManzar says Imam AbiJaffar asws saw me wearing white socks when I came inside. Imam a/s said: O Ziad! what colour socks you are wearing? I replied: these socks I have got specially made for me. Imamasws said: Don’t you know pure white socks are the symbol of arrogance and so and so ( may refer to Umar and Abubakar or Phiraun and samri) are the first who used this colour. The Persian rulers first used red socks. And the black coloured socks are the tradition of the family of Hashem and it is our tradition (sunnath).

Wasailushia Vol-5,Page-63

وسمعت مشائخنا رضي الله عنهم يقولون : لا تجوز الصلاة في الطابقية ( 6 ) ولا يجوزللمعتم أن يصلي إلا وهو متحنك

( 6 ) الطابقية : العمامة التي لا حنك لها

And I (Shaikh Sadooq) heard from our blessed mashaikh (senior teachers) saying: "Not valid is the prayer in tabqiyah* and not valid is it for the amama wearer to pray unless he does tahannuk(drop an end of the turban between the shoulders).

*Tabqiyah: Amama without hanak (end of the turban dropping down between shoulders).

وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : الفرق بين المسلمين والمشركين التلحي بالعمائ

وذلك في أول الاسلام وابتدائه

And Prophet(PBUH) said "The difference between muslims and mushriks (polytheists) is hanaks (dropping an end of turban down) in turbans."

So, the case of wearing white socks is clearly against sunna however by applying Qiyas Masus al Illa; they said the Mushrikeen do not wear it now(illa=reason) so it is halal to wear it therby going against a mentioned Sunna

Note: My personal commentary has been bolded.

Ya Ali Madad

Brother i welcome your criticism on Usooli methodology. But do not you think that picking out flaws in a system while defending one's own system is not a just method? The question is not "What are the flaws in Usooli methodology?". The Question is what replacement Akhbari methodology provides?. In your two major posts i did not get a one line statement or order of Shariah about "Liver Transplant" instead you attacked Usooli methodology and blamed them of using "Qiyas". While it is yet another misinformation about usooli methodology that they use "Qiyas" for deriving any Shariah rule from Quran and Sunnah while the fact is that they use "Aql" and "Mantaq" for deriving any Shariah rule from Quran and Sunnah. The problem in liver transplant issue will not stop here then my subsequent question is that if the liver is of a Kafir/Najis? Then the question would be that if that Kafir Najis is from Ahl ul Kitab.

[Orion]

(bismillah)

An example of point 5

i HAVE uploaded a pic so make sure compare the ahadees given below with the pic of mujtahideen

So, the case of wearing white socks is clearly against sunna however by applying Qiyas Masus al Illa; they said the Mushrikeen do not wear it now(illa=reason) so it is halal to wear it therby going against a mentioned Sunna

How do you know that the socks they are wearing are white and not gray?

And I (Shaikh Sadooq) heard from our blessed mashaikh (senior teachers) saying: "Not valid is the prayer in tabqiyah* and not valid is it for the amama wearer to pray unless he does tahannuk(drop an end of the turban between the shoulders).

*Tabqiyah: Amama without hanak (end of the turban dropping down between shoulders).

وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله : الفرق بين المسلمين والمشركين التلحي بالعمائ

وذلك في أول الاسلام وابتدائه

And Prophet(PBUH) said "The difference between muslims and mushriks (polytheists) is hanaks (dropping an end of turban down) in turbans."

Note the end of turban dropped in the following pics:

:)

Edited September 1, 2011 by Orion