Did Imam Ali (عليه السلام) pray behind caliphs?

[zedman]

Salaam,

I am new to the forum but have recently been involved in many discussion re: Imam Ali(AS) and the relationship he had with the Caliphs following the demise of the Prophet (SAAW).

The main questions that I am searching for answers:

1) Did Imam Ali (as) pray behind them in jamma'a?

2) Where are the references that he was forced to give bay'aa an dhow was he forced?

3) How did Imam Ali (as) react when changes were being made by them to the religion eg. Adhan, taraweeh etc

I will also point you to the below article which has confused me even more.

http://www.aimislam.com/resources/15-beliefs/1915-imam-ali-and-the-caliphs-their-relationship-and-interaction-.html

the above article does seem to show Imam Ali(as) to be a pragmatist and it is written by our own Scholars

[Mehek]

Here are the references which suggest that Imam Ali (as) reminded them Prayer of Prophet (pbuh)

Sahih Bokhari Volume:1. Book:12. Book of:Characteristics of Prayer. Number:751 :Narrated Imran bin Husain: I offered the prayer with 'Ali in Basra and he made us remember the prayer which we used to pray with Allah's Apostle. 'Ali said Takbir on each rising and bowing.

Sahih Bokhari Volume:1. Book:12. Book of:Characteristics of Prayer. Number:753 :Narrated Mutarrif bin 'Abdullah: 'Imran bin Husain and I offered the prayer behind Ali bin Abi Talib. When 'Ali prostrated, he said the Takbir, when he raised his head, he said the Takbir and when he got up for the third Rak'a he said the Takbir. On completion of the prayer Imran took my hand and said, "This (i.e. 'Ali) made me remember the prayer of Muhammad" Or he said, "He led us in a prayer like that of Muhammad."

Sahih Bokhari Volume:1. Book:12. Book of:Characteristics of Prayer. Number:789 :Narrated Mutarrif: 'Imran and I prayed behind 'Ali bin Abi Talib and he said Takbir on prostrating, on rising and on getting up after the two Rakat (i.e. after the second Rak'a). When the prayer was finished, 'Imran took me by the hand and said, "He ('Ali) has prayed the prayer of Muhammad" (or said, "He made us remember the prayer of Muhammad)."

And a lot more discussed here

http://www.shiachat....ged-the-prayer/

So you decide can a person whose prayers resemble the prayers of Prophet (pbuh) pray behind ignorant people who said that if they make mistakes to correct them?

Edited August 29, 2011 by Mehek

[14infallibles]

(salam)

The Master of the Faithful had no choice but to suffer patiently and wait. In a famous sermon (widely referred to as the Shaqshaqiyyah Sermon), he thus describes this period: “I realized that to wait patiently was more prudent, so I suffered as one who suffers a thorn in his eye and a bone caught in his throat.”

... Did they just quote the Shaqshaqiya Sermon ... :o

[Aly ReZa]

(salam)

... Did they just quote the Shaqshaqiya Sermon ... :o

Can u provide the reference for the above sermon

Which I can read online.

[Ali Hayder]

Can u provide the reference for the above sermon

Which I can read online.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/

Sermon no. 3

[ktmnabi]

be careful of that al islam shia site it omits anything from texts that it feels uncomfortable with

[zakzaki]

Did Imam Ali(as) Pray Behind Caliphs?

According to rule of a person who leads a prayer one should not be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest

but Imam Ali (as) according to Sunni Sahih hadith thought Umar and Abubakr to be

a liars, sinful, treacherous and dishonest people.

that is why we do not have a single hadith that Imam Ali (as) prayed behind them, nor did Imam Ali (as) read their burial namaz.

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349:

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:,,,,, Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. ,,,,,, When the Messenger of Allah pbuh passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor(arabic wali ) of the Messenger of Allah pbuh." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr said: The Messenger of Allah pbuh had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest . And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah pbuh and Abu Bakr, you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property ,,

[zedman]

Salaam,

Thank you all for your posts. I know your references well. However if you read the link I have posted the article by one of our own scholars paints a different picture of Imam Ali (as) in the period of the Caliphs.

Please can someone commentate on it.

An example of what its refers to: Wasa’il al-Shi‘ah, vol. 5, p. 383 ‘Allamah al-Sayyid ‘Abd al-Husayn Sharaf al-Din provides the following explanation on this topic:

Imam Ali (as) performed his prayer behind [the Caliphs] sincerely for God. Thus we submit to him and seek proximity to God by praying in congregation behind Sunni imams. This is approved by the school of the Ahlulbayt: worshippers are rewarded for praying in congregation behind Sunni imams just as they are rewarded for praying behind Shia imams. Those aware of our school know that in relation to Shia imams, we consider ‘idalah (righteousness) a condition and as such regard praying behind a Shia imam who is fasiq (unrighteous) or unknown impermissible. We, however, allow praying behind any Sunni imam

Sayid Sharaf Al-Din is the author of al-muraja'at, one of our greatest books

[pakistanyar]

well did any of you read that Aim Islam article? Can someone knowledgeable confirm or explain what is written in the AIM article. Some Mods perhaps, MacIssac?

[zedman]

Salaam,

Thank-you pakistanyar. I think anyone who has read the article would agree it is essential admin or mods be able to comment on the aimislam article regarding Imam Ali (as) relationship with the Caliphs as this is a fundamental shift from our mainstream opinion.

[Ali Hayder]

well did any of you read that Aim Islam article? Can someone knowledgeable confirm or explain what is written in the AIM article. Some Mods perhaps, MacIssac?

The references are incomplete and most are Sunni sources. Not much to say other than its a pretty lame attempt to rewrite history.

[zedman]

Salaam,

I think we need a more in depth analysis brother Ali Hayder. Your input will be useful.

If you can comment on the references particularly the below which is definitely a Shia source:

An example of what its refers to: Wasa’il al-Shi‘ah, vol. 5, p. 383 ‘Allamah al-Sayyid ‘Abd al-Husayn Sharaf al-Din provides the following explanation on this topic:

Imam Ali (as) performed his prayer behind [the Caliphs] sincerely for God. Thus we submit to him and seek proximity to God by praying in congregation behind Sunni imams. This is approved by the school of the Ahlulbayt: worshippers are rewarded for praying in congregation behind Sunni imams just as they are rewarded for praying behind Shia imams. Those aware of our school know that in relation to Shia imams, we consider ‘idalah (righteousness) a condition and as such regard praying behind a Shia imam who is fasiq (unrighteous) or unknown impermissible. We, however, allow praying behind any Sunni imam

[Ali_Hussain]

Just because you stand behind someone, doesn't mean you are following them in your prayer. There are ahadith that talk about the great reward for standing and praying with sunnis, but at the end of the day, you are still praying alone and just moving at the same time as them.

[Ali Hayder]

Salaam,

I think we need a more in depth analysis brother Ali Hayder. Your input will be useful.

If you can comment on the references particularly the below which is definitely a Shia source:

An example of what its refers to: Wasa’il al-Shi‘ah, vol. 5, p. 383 ‘Allamah al-Sayyid ‘Abd al-Husayn Sharaf al-Din provides the following explanation on this topic:

Imam Ali (as) performed his prayer behind [the Caliphs] sincerely for God. Thus we submit to him and seek proximity to God by praying in congregation behind Sunni imams. This is approved by the school of the Ahlulbayt: worshippers are rewarded for praying in congregation behind Sunni imams just as they are rewarded for praying behind Shia imams. Those aware of our school know that in relation to Shia imams, we consider ‘idalah (righteousness) a condition and as such regard praying behind a Shia imam who is fasiq (unrighteous) or unknown impermissible. We, however, allow praying behind any Sunni imam

If we see the meaning and purpose of an Imam it is to lead. Literary "amam" means in front, and thus "Imam" is the one who stands in front. Now if Imam Ali (as) is rightful Imam and leader (as we believe) then his salaah is fine wherever he prays. It is those who prayed in front of him whose salaah is batil.

[Merdan]

Zakzaki, Kindly do not take sunni hadiths out of context.

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349:

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): “Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them.” I said: “I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job.” He said: “Malik, take it (and do what you have been told).” At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa’ came in and said: “Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. ‘Auf, Zubair and Sa’d (who have come to seek an audience with you)?” He said: “Yes, and permitted them.” So they entered. Then he (Yarfa’) came again and said: “What do you say about ‘Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)?” He said: “Yes,” and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: “Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar (Ali).” The people (who were present) also said: “Yes, Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them.” Malik b. Aus said: “I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by ‘Ali and Abbas).” ‘Umar said: “Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They said: “Yes.” Then he turned to Abbas and ‘Ali and said: “I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity?’” They (too) said: “Yes.” (Then) Umar said: “Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (may peace be upon him) a special favor that He has not done to anyone else except him.” He quoted the Quranic verse: “What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger.” The narrator said: “I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not.” Umar continued: “The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) distributed among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over.

“The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal.” (Continuing further) he said: “I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this?” They said: “Yes.” Then he adjured Abbas and ‘All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: “Do you both know this?” They said: “Yes.” He said: “When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said: ‘I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).’ Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah).” (Referring to Hadrat ‘Abbas), he said: “You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: ‘The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said: We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.’ So both of you (Ali and Abbas) thought him (Abu Bakr) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him),you (Ali and Abbas) thought me (Umar) to be a liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. So both of you got it.” He said: “Wasn’t it like this?” They said: “Yes.” He said: “Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.”

Omer RA is using ibn Abbas's RA words against Ali RA to make the point that Ali RA is in the right.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Merdan

[Guest kareem abdur raheem]

786...when a comment is made and it is incorrect such as the statement by brother zakzaki about we do not have a single hadith about showing imam ali ((عليه السلام).) praying behind the sunni it should be noted that it is an error in his statement so that if a muslim happened not to go any further to the next submission it would be duly noted and erase a possible error from occuring and get moderator approval before being posted

[Hameedeh]

22 hours ago, Guest kareem abdur raheem said:

786...when a comment is made and it is incorrect such as the statement by brother zakzaki about we do not have a single hadith about showing imam ali ((عليه السلام).) praying behind the sunni it should be noted that it is an error in his statement so that if a muslim happened not to go any further to the next submission it would be duly noted and erase a possible error from occuring and get moderator approval before being posted

Salam. This topic is at least 11 years old and you are assuming that the member zakzaki needed his reply to be approved and since you think it was wrong, that Moderators should not have approved it. Just so you know: New members need a Moderator to approve their posts. Members who have raised their status to Advanced level don't need Mod approval. It is up to others to reply to refute someone, politely, if they posted something wrong. Mods sometimes approve wrong posts because the person believes something and wants to discuss it. However, Mods cannot reply to every wrong post.