Ameen After Fatiha

[Ali Hussain 1]

Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

[zakzaki 142]

Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

Secondly it was a bidah added much later on.

here is some more depth on this word

Historical records do indicate that the ancient Egyptians had, among their many gods, a god called Amen (the presumed personification of air or breath, represented by a ram or goose). However, no evidence can be found, linking the word amen (Hebrew: “truth”, “so be it”) to this, or any other, pagan god.

http://www.thercg.org/questions/p028.a.html

[guest 34193 36]

[ 7362 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة ، عن جميل ، عن أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إذا كنت خلف إمام فقرأ الحمد وفرغ من قراءتها فقل أنت : الحمد لله ربّ العالمين ، ولا تقل : آمين.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-Hamdu lillaahi rabbi 'l-`aalameen", and do not say "ameen."

http://www.tashayyu....after-al-fatiha

[zakzaki 142]

[ 7362 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة ، عن جميل ، عن أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إذا كنت خلف إمام فقرأ الحمد وفرغ من قراءتها فقل أنت : الحمد لله ربّ العالمين ، ولا تقل : آمين.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-Hamdu lillaahi rabbi 'l-`aalameen", and do not say "ameen."

http://www.tashayyu....after-al-fatiha

Jaakallah it is quite evident that the first 3 caliphs or Mawiya (LA) made changes in Islam. I guess they made up their mind that whatever the Prophet (pbuh) or Ahlul bayt say they would do the opposite.

It is so evident whether be Tarawih or this biddah of Ammeen in Sunnis.

[Ali Hussain 1]

First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

Secondly it was a bidah added much later on.

here is some more depth on this word

Historical records do indicate that the ancient Egyptians had, among their many gods, a god called Amen (the presumed personification of air or breath, represented by a ram or goose). However, no evidence can be found, linking the word amen (Hebrew: “truth”, “so be it”) to this, or any other, pagan god.

http://www.thercg.or...ons/p028.a.html

Then why do we say "Ameen" to duas?

[zakzaki 142]

Then why do we say "Ameen" to duas?

which duas we say amen?

I guess Christains say Amen

[Ali Hussain 1]

which duas we say amen?

I guess Christains say Amen

well we say "elahey ameen" don't we?

[zakzaki 142]

well we say "elahey ameen" don't we?

Yes but elahi means in aabic "My Allah" and we simply do not say Ameen like the Christians, which means the pagan God.

I am still waiting for the proof of the word present in Quran and hadith.

[Nader Zaveri 1,365]

Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

There seems to be an ijmaa` in our sect on "Ameen" invalidating (baaTil) your prayers. al-Mufeed, al-MurtaDa and al-Toosi all claim that it is an ijmaa` (consensus) that Ameen invalidates/breaks your Salaah.

al-Toosi says:

Þæá Âãíä íÞØÚ ÇáÕáÇÉ ÓæÇÁ ßÇä Ðáß Ýí ÎáÇá ÇáÍãÏ Ãæ ÈÚÏå ááÅãÇã æ ÇáãÃãæãíä æ Úáì ßá ÍÇá Ýí ÌåÑ ßÇä Ðáß Ãæ ÅÎÝÇÊ

"Saying Ameen breaks your Salaah whether during Al-Hamd (Al-FaatiHah) or after the Imaam and followers (in the jamaa'ah) and in EVERY situation whether (it is) outloud or done softly"

Source:

• Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT fee fiqh Al-Imaamiyyah, vol. 1, pg. 106
  

al-Toosi also says:

ÏáíáäÇ: ÅÌãÇÚ ÇáÝÑÞÉ ÝÅäåã áÇ íÎÊáÝæä Ýí Çä Ðáß íÈØá ÇáÕáÇÉ¡ æ ÃíÖÇ ÝáÇ ÎáÇÝ Çäå ÅÐÇ áã íÞá Ðáß Çä ÕáÇÊå ÕÍíÍÉ ãÇÖíÉ.

æ ÇÎÊáÝæÇ ÅÐÇ ÞÇá Ðáß¡ ÝíäÈÛí ÇáÚãá Úáì ÇáÇÍÊíÇØ ÈÊÑßå.

æ Ñæí Úä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æ Âáå Çäå ÞÇá: Çä åÐå ÇáÕáÇÉ áÇ íÕáÍ ÝíåÇ Ôí‏Á ãä ßáÇã ÇáÂÏãííä æ Þæá Âãíä ãä ßáÇã ÇáÂÏãííä.

æ Ñæì ãÍãÏ ÇáÍáÈí ÞÇá: ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÃÞæá ÅÐÇ ÝÑÛÊ ãä ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ Âãíä ÞÇá: áÇ.

Our Proofs: The consensus of the sect, and there is no difference in that that it makes your salaah baaTil. And also, there is no difference of opinion that if you do not say it that your salah is still SaHeeH. And there are differences over if one should say it, but it is appropriate for one to abandon it out of precaution.

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "In prayer it is not correct that you speak from the words of humans in it. And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans."

And it is narrated from Muhamamd al-Halibee said, I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah about saying ameen when finishing al-Fatihah? He said: No."

Source:

• al-Toosi, al-Khilaaf, vol. 1, pg. 334, ruling # 84
  

I am not able to find the hadeeth that al-Toosi has cited (in red) in our hadeeth books, so I am not able to check its authenticity.

al-Sadooq says:

æó áóÇ íóÌõæÒõ Ãóäú íõÞóÇáó ÈóÚúÏó ÞöÑóÇÁóÉö ÝóÇÊöÍóÉö ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö Âãöíäó áöÃóäóø Ðóáößó ßóÇäóÊú ÊóÞõæáõåõ ÇáäóøÕóÇÑóì

"And it is not permissible that he says after FaatiHah al-Kitaab: Ameen, because that is the saying of the Christians"

Source:

• al-Sadooq, Man Laa YaHDuruh al-Faqeeh, vol. 1, pg. 390
  

Muhaqqiq al-Hilli says:

áÇ íÌæÒ Þæá Âãíä ÂÎÑ ÇáÍãÏ æ Þíá åæ ãßÑæå

"It is NOT premissible to say 'Ameen' after Al-Hamd (Al-FaatiHah), and (some scholars) say it is makrooh (disliked)."

Source:

• Al-Muhaqqiq Al-Hillee (d. 676 AH), Sharaa-i' Al-Islaam fee Masaa-il Al-Halaal wa Al-Haraam, vol. 1, pg. 73
  

I believe the "some scholars" who Muhaqqiq al-Hilli is referring to is most likely Ibn Junayd, who said: Ãäå ÌæÒ ÇáÊÃãíä ÚÞíÈ ÇáÍãÏ æ ÛíÑåÇ æ ÇáÇÍÊíÇØ Ýí ÇáÊÑß ãØáÞÇ (That it is permissible to say Ameen after al-Hamd (al-Faatihah) and other (situations), and iHtiyaat (precaution) is to abandon it unconditionally (in all cases)"

There is no problem with saying Ameen outside of prayer after you recite a du`aa. As we have many aHaadeeth that our A'immah told us to say "Ameen" after reciting du`aa.

Wallaahu A`lim.

(salam)

[Nader Zaveri 1,365]

(salam)

(bismillah)

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

.....

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "In prayer it is not correct that you speak from the words of humans in it. And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans."

...

Source:

• al-Toosi, al-Khilaaf, vol. 1, pg. 334, ruling # 84
  

I have made a slight mistake. The correct translation is as follows:

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "That in this prayer it is not correct that you speak anything from the words of humans." (al-Toosi says) 'And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans.'

Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

If you are looking for an explicit hadeeth from our books that says "Saying Ameen voids your Salaah", you will not find that specific hadeeth. This ruling is more of an inferred ruling, mainly from the hadeeth that al-Toosi has mentioned (that is in red).

Wallaahu A`lim

(wasalam)

Edited August 28, 2011 by Nader Zaveri

[Aabiss_Shakari 1,400]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Question: is it legitimate to say amen after the recitation of Al-faateha Sura?

Answer: unlike other schools of law, which think Amen should be said after the recitation of Al-faateha Sura and consider it as tradition, Shia has belief in not saying that. (1)

Sheikh Tusi said in <Khelaaf> that “saying amen invalidates the prayer, there is no difference, whether it is said quietly or loudly, after Al-faateha Sura or before that, from Imam (who leads congregation prayer) or Ma’mum (follower of prayer)”

Abu Easfaraayeni has said “if Imam recites Al-faateha Sura, before Ma’mums, they shouldn’t say amen, and if they do, should recite Al-faateha Sura again”. Some of Shaafii have the same belief. (2)

by the narratives which were about <placing hand over the other> we mentioned the quality of the prayer of the prophet –s.a-, in these narratives there isn’t mentioned anything about saying amen. That’s why, we say this is not part of prayer, nor Mustahab (recommended). In a narrative from Abu Hamid Saa’edi, it is said that “when he decided to perform prayer, raised his hands near the shoulders, uttered Takbir, afterwards he recited Al-faateha Sura, then uttered Takbir, and raised his hands up to his shoulders, then performed Ruku’ and put his palms on the knees”. (3)

As you see, in this narrative there isn’t anything about saying amen neither in Quran.

And it is narrated that the prophet –s.a- said “when you decides to perform prayer, turn to Qibla, utter Takbir and recite whatever you know from Quran by heart”. (4)

In the preceded narrative, it is not referred to saying amen neither in this phrase < whatever you know from Quran by heart >.

In a hadith from ‘Aayeshah, the prophet’s prayer is described as follows “the prophet –s.a- used to commence his prayer by uttering Takbir and reciting Al-faateha Sura. And while performing Ruku’, he kept his back and head at same level”. (5)

In other narratives which regard the quality of the prophet’s prayer, it isn’t mentioned anything about saying amen.

Confirming saying amen in prayer by some people is because of this Du’a (the act of supplication) < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>.

Here we refer to some points:

First: Du’a is an intentional act. The one, who utters Al-faateha Sura, has intended to recite from the holy Quran, not Du’a. And the peoples are obligated to recite this Sura, because the prayers without that are invalid.

Second: even if saying amen is on account of that Du’a < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, some of people <especially non-Arabs> who perform prayer, don’t know there is a Du’a among the verses of Al-faateha Sura that they should say amen.

Third: even if saying amen is for that Du’a < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, it should be clarified (like the word of Abu Haamed Esfaraayeni) it is not legitimate that Imam recites Al-faateha Sura before Ma’mums (followers of prayer), and when Imam recites < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, ma’mums should not start prayer.

Saying amen in prayer can be legitimate, if we do not consider it as the word of human, if we do, the prayer will be invalid. This is quoted from the prophet –s.a- that “words of the people shouldn’t be uttered in the prayer”. (6)

All of the above-mentioned words are based on the rules of Islam. So the pure Imams of Ahlul-Bayt are one of Thaqalayn, which is not separate from the holy Book of God. And they (pure Imams of Ahlul-Bayt) have made it unlawful to say amen in prayer.

Muhammad Halabi said “I questioned Imam Saadeq –pbuh- that “should I say amen after reciting Al-faateha Sura?”, “no” he answered. (7) (8)

1. Al-intisaar: page 144

2. Al-khilaf: volume 1, page 333

3. Sunan Baihaqi: volume 2, page 72, 73, 101, 102

4. Boluq Al-maraam: 92, number 2/250

5. Boluq Al-maraam: 99, number 8/257

6. Sahih Moslim: volume1, page 381, number 537

7. Wasaa’el Al-shia: volume 4, chapter 17 of prayer recitation chapters, hadith 3

8. The aspect of Shia’s creed, page 415

http://english.makarem.ir/squestions/index.php?qid=584&gro=2638&sw=

[twoblade 2]

Jaakallah it is quite evident that the first 3 caliphs or Mawiya (LA) made changes in Islam. I guess they made up their mind that whatever the Prophet (pbuh) or Ahlul bayt say they would do the opposite.

It is so evident whether be Tarawih or this biddah of Ammeen in Sunnis.

Do you hear yourself? The reactionary hadith is the one attributed to the Imams. Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

...

I am not able to find the hadeeth that al-Toosi has cited (in red) in our hadeeth books, so I am not able to check its authenticity.

Assuming it's saheeh, why wouldn't Abu Abdullah mention this important fact when he ambiguously told his follower (i.e. without specifying that the saying was to be from Qur'an only and not the "words of man") "محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال، عن ابن بكير، عن زرارة قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): أكون مع الامام فأفرغ من القرأة قبل أن يفرغ قال: ابق آية ومجد الله واثن عليه فإذا فرغ فاقرء الآية واركع"?

If you are looking for an explicit hadeeth from our books that says "Saying Ameen voids your Salaah", you will not find that specific hadeeth. This ruling is more of an inferred ruling, mainly from the hadeeth that al-Toosi has mentioned (that is in red).

First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

The word has it's roots in Hebrew for all intents and purposes. If you play the pagan God game, you can find similarities between a number of words and names of "pagan" Gods in random, unrelated periods. As far as suggesting that the word isn't rooted in 'Arabic, that's not a problem - if you pick up any substantial book on the words even used in Qur'an like al-Suyuti's itqaan, you'll see for yourself the different words that are adopted into 'Arabic. The Qur'an doesn't contain all the words used by 'Arabs at the time of it's revelation and it would be folly to suggest that - Clearly the 'Arabs at least knew it early on as (1) it's used in traditions attributed to the Prophet (saaw), (2) there were non-Muslims in 'Arabia that are known to have used it.

[Ace Abbas 43]

This thread is supposed to be in Laws forum.

[zakzaki 142]

Do you hear yourself? The reactionary hadith is the one attributed to the Imams. Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

Not only the word Amen coined by Mawiya (LA) but also the word Sunna wal Jamah, which does not exist in the Quran.

The ahlulbayt Imam (as) has clearly advised us not to use Amen in namaz.

Should'nt we follow the Prophet (pbuh) who said follow Quran and Ahlul bayt (as) after me. Is that not in your Sahih?

[twoblade 2]

Not only the word Amen coined by Mawiya (LA)

Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat?

Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

which does not exist in the Quran.

You are an expert from the Mufasireen and I'm just an ignorant so please enlighten me as to where in the Qur'an does Allah use takbeer which is also a part of salaat?

The ahlulbayt Imam (as) has clearly advised us not to use Amen in namaz.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254118

Should'nt we follow the Prophet (pbuh) who said follow Quran and Ahlul bayt (as) after me. Is that not in your Sahih?

Is it?

In any case, it's hard to follow people when one day they say "ما أحسنها واخفض الصوت بها" and the other day they say "ولا تقل : آمين". Looks like Sunnis are just following the lie they told to everybody and you are following the truth which they only told secretly to a handful of followers :)

Edited August 31, 2011 by twoblade

[Saved 28]

Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat? Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

Destroying the true teachings of Islaam gave people like 'Umar and Mu'aawiyah a lot of satisfaction. If adding an "ameen" after Faatihah serves that purposes then I bet they would do it :huh:

[zakzaki 142]

Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat?

Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

You were the first person to possibly claim that Mawiya (la) added it

Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

and I then confirmed it possibly because the word is

1) not Arabic,

2) not used in Quran or Sahih Hadith.

I am sure it is come from biddah's of Umar and Mawiya (LA) or included by Abu Hurraira who was a proven liar.

[twoblade 2]

You were the first person to possibly claim that Mawiya (la) added it

and I then confirmed it possibly because the word is

1) not Arabic,

2) not used in Quran or Sahih Hadith.

I am sure it is come from biddah's of Umar and Mawiya (LA)

- You're wrong about two. It's accepted that there were Christians/Jews in Haramayn at the time of Rasulallah (saw) and this word is in their books. These people were 'Arabs so the word is considered an adopted 'Arabic word same as many words used in the Qur'an. You should do some research on those words in general before making up such claims (refer to the book I mentioned).

- It might not be in Qur'an, but again:

Is "Allahu Akbar" - which you say in Salaat - in Qur'an?

- You said this word is not in any saheeh ahadith (I'm assuming Saheeh Shi'i ahadith). You are an expert of ahadith and I'm just an ignorant - but are you so sure about that? :)

- You're an expert faqih as well, and you're sure, 100% positive, that this is a bid'a of the people you believe hated 'Ali's (ra) descendants. You said so yourself in the top link. So can you please explain to me what benefit these nefarious people gained by doing this evil bid'a?

Destroying the true teachings of Islaam gave people like 'Umar and Mu'aawiyah a lot of satisfaction. If adding an "ameen" after Faatihah serves that purposes then I bet they would do it :huh:

Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

[Saved 28]

Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

You've never seen Sunnis removing the Salawaat from their Salaah :o ? Mr. twoblade, the Umayyads did that too :rolleyes: . They shortened the Salawaat and removed it from Salah. Instead, they CURSED the Ahl al-Bayt (as). You know these things already.

Today, the issue of Salawaat in Salah is a matter of dispute among Sunnees, thanks to the Umayyads.

[Gypsy 3,163]

Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

They had no problem with the nabi. They hated ahlul bayt because every single caliph that becomes the ruler after nabi starting from Abu Bakr were illegitime. The rightful caliphs were Ali (as) and his descendent, and these were the 12 Imams based on the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

[twoblade 2]

They had no problem with the nabi. They hated ahlul bayt because every single caliph that becomes the ruler after nabi starting from Abu Bakr were illegitime. The rightful caliphs were Ali (as) and his descendent, and these were the 12 Imams based on the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

How insightful and related.

Anyways, you mention the Prophet's aal when you say salawat in Sunni salaat. If adding ameen after recitation of al-Fatiha was part of the devious plans of the people that hated them, can you please explain what purpose that accomplished? Versus an alternative bid'a, like removing mention of salawat from Salat altogether?

Edited September 1, 2011 by twoblade

[zakzaki 142]

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254120

Oh okay then show me proof that it has been used in the prayers of the Prophet (pbuh) by showing a Sahih hadith.

You're wrong about two. It's accepted that there were Christians/Jews in Haramayn at the time of Rasulallah (saw) and this word is in their books. These people were 'Arabs so the word is considered an adopted 'Arabic word same as many words used in the Qur'an. You should do some research on those words in general before making up such claims (refer to the book I mentioned).

- It might not be in Qur'an, but again:

Is "Allahu Akbar" - which you say in Salaat - in Qur'an?

If Allah, his name, and his praise are not great, then what else is great in the world? And here is the Quranic verse

اتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ ۖ إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ تَنْهَىٰ عَنِ الْفَحْشَاءِ وَالْمُنْكَرِ ۗ وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَصْنَعُونَ

[29:45] Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.

[twoblade 2]

Oh okay then show me proof that it has been used in the prayers of the Prophet (pbuh) by showing a Sahih hadith.

Non-Twelver books aren't a hujja for you so...

In any case, you didn't seem so bothered about authenticity when Mac presented you the hadith forbidding saying ameen after al-Fatiha. Nor were you bothered to open the link and see on the same site that there was a tradition from an Imam encouraging saying ameen. So why the fascination with authenticity now? :)

If Allah, his name, and his praise are not great, then what else is great in the world? And here is the Quranic verse

اتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ ۖ إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ تَنْهَىٰ عَنِ الْفَحْشَاءِ وَالْمُنْكَرِ ۗ وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَصْنَعُونَ

[29:45] Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.

Guess that wasn't a good example :P

[guest 34193 36]

How insightful and related.

Anyways, you mention the Prophet's aal when you say salawat in Sunni salaat. If adding ameen after recitation of al-Fatiha was part of the devious plans of the people that hated them, can you please explain what purpose that accomplished? Versus an alternative bid'a, like removing mention of salawat from Salat altogether?

Who said it was a conspiracy as such? When the Muslims started expanding to different lands outside of the Arabian peninsula and getting into more contact with other peoples and religions, there was undoubtedly a cross-polination that was going on on both ends. Witness for instance the plethora of Israiliyyat that were getting used to do tafsir of the book of Allah. (We believe the case of qabd/takfir is likewise, with some Muslims imitating the habits of the Majus, for instance it not being done as such in Madina but rather showing up in lands that had till then been under Zoroastrian control). So with Ameen, it's not at all a stretch to conceive some Muslims would have seen the Kitabis use this in their prayers and decided to copy the habit from them, as they were clearly incorporating their material with regards to such things as tafsir and even copying architectural styles for masjids (witness the usage of the Byzantine dome early on).

[Haydar Husayn 9,678]

There is no problem with saying Ameen outside of prayer after you recite a du`aa. As we have many aHaadeeth that our A'immah told us to say "Ameen" after reciting du`aa.

Could you give some examples?

[twoblade 2]

Who said it was a conspiracy as such?

"Jaakallah it is quite evident that the first 3 caliphs or Mawiya (LA) made changes in Islam. I guess they made up their mind that whatever the Prophet (pbuh) or Ahlul bayt say they would do the opposite."

When the Muslims started expanding to different lands outside of the Arabian peninsula and getting into more contact with other peoples and religions, there was undoubtedly a cross-polination that was going on on both ends. Witness for instance the plethora of Israiliyyat that were getting used to do tafsir of the book of Allah. (We believe the case of qabd/takfir is likewise, with some Muslims imitating the habits of the Majus, for instance it not being done as such in Madina but rather showing up in lands that had till then been under Zoroastrian control). So with Ameen, it's not at all a stretch to conceive some Muslims would have seen the Kitabis use this in their prayers and decided to copy the habit from them, as they were clearly incorporating their material with regards to such things as tafsir and even copying architectural styles for masjids (witness the usage of the Byzantine dome early on).

I don't disagree with you about that possibility. However, considering that "سألت أبا عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) عن قول الناس في الصلاة جماعة حين يقرأ فاتحة الكتاب : آمين ؟ قال : ما أحسنها واخفض الصوت بها" is saheeh (too?), with a more reliable and shorter source - and also considering that this action has certain routes that are uniquely Madinan (so the only inter-mixing should've been at the time of the Prophet (saw)) amongst Sunnis, I'd think there would be other possibilities as well.

Edited September 1, 2011 by twoblade

[guest 34193 36]

I don't disagree with you about that possibility. However, considering that "سألت أبا عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) عن قول الناس في الصلاة جماعة حين يقرأ فاتحة الكتاب : آمين ؟ قال : ما أحسنها واخفض الصوت بها" is saheeh (too?), with a more reliable and shorter source - and also considering that this action has certain routes that are uniquely Madinan (so the only inter-mixing should've been at the time of the Prophet (saw)) amongst Sunnis, I'd think there would be other possibilities as well.

Sure but this is not uncommon in our hadiths. Have a number that say one thing, then an outlier that goes against it. In this case (as in a number of others) we clearly see the outlier hadith is in agreement with the `Aammi position. Hence, it's not hard for us to decide which of the two would be representing the taqiyya position. Keep in mind also, Jamil b. Darraj is the primary narrator on both the narration you are mentioning and the one I cited, so there's obviously more than meets the eye here.

[Righteous 128]

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/amen.html

[twoblade 2]

Sure but this is not uncommon in our hadiths. Have a number that say one thing, then an outlier that goes against it. In this case (as in a number of others) we clearly see the outlier hadith is in agreement with the `Aammi position. Hence, it's not hard for us to decide which of the two would be representing the taqiyya position. Keep in mind also, Jamil b. Darraj is the primary narrator on both the narration you are mentioning and the one I cited, so there's obviously more than meets the eye here.

I did notice that, but I went in one different direction as to what exactly is "more than meets the eye" when I considered the possibilities. There are only two traditions with clear prohibition, and one of them has a known liar in the sanad according to Shi'i biographers who either related a correct tradition this time or felt the need to defend a particular tradition (by inventing a supporting one). The fact that an alternative was sought out, rather than simple omission is also interesting. imo, Wasael is a very limited scope to draw conclusions on which tradition is the outlier from. There are other traditions on this topic as well, but Shi'i scholars probably considered those as well so it might be a moot point.

Edited September 1, 2011 by twoblade

[guest 34193 36]

I did notice that, but I went in one different direction as to what exactly is "more than meets the eye" when I considered the possibilities. There are only two traditions with clear prohibition, and one of them has a known liar in the sanad according to Shi'i biographers who either related a correct tradition this time or felt the need to defend a particular tradition (by inventing a supporting one). Also, this is a very limited scope to draw conclusions on which tradition is the outlier from. There are other traditions on this topic as well.

I'm seeing three clearly prohibitive ones here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/qiraah/amin-after-al-fatiha

(I think you might have missed the narration of Zurara?)

You asked us why would the rulers (though I don't say it was necessarily them) would invent such a tradition as saying ameen, but let me reverse it for you. Why would we have invented (and overwhelmingly acted on as it is the agreement of the ta'ifa not to say ameen after al-Fatiha) such narrations from our end? If the Imams (as) instead were teaching their followers to say Ameen, why would we have gone against that when we believe they are ma`sum? It's not like everything we do is contrary to the `Aamma, like we don't do four rak`at maghrib prayers or something. So why would we (against the teachings of our Imams) invent such a thing?

[twoblade 2]

I'm seeing three clearly prohibitive ones here:

http://www.tashayyu....after-al-fatiha

(I think you might have missed the narration of Zurara?)

I didn't count that one till I was sure it was unique. I don't know if there are any common narrators in it and the ones we have present with full details.

You asked us why would the rulers (though I don't say it was necessarily them) would invent such a tradition as saying ameen, but let me reverse it for you. Why would we have invented (and overwhelmingly acted on as it is the agreement of the ta'ifa not to say ameen after al-Fatiha) such narrations from our end? If the Imams (as) instead were teaching their followers to say Ameen, why would we have gone against that when we believe they are ma`sum? It's not like everything we do is contrary to the `Aamma, like we don't do four rak`at maghrib prayers or something. So why would we (against the teachings of our Imams) invent such a thing?

It seems like differentiation to me. Whereas it makes absolutely no sense for, say, Mu'awiyah to do something like this to hurt aal Muhammad (saw), the opposite is true for the possibility you suggested but also for a small group wanting to distinguish itself from the majority as offering something unique, having a secret knowledge that only those privy and their students can access. I've personally seen people who have benefited from promoting such beliefs about themselves even today.

Ameen makes sense with the Surah even if it is a bid'a as it's something the Imams are known to have said even through tawattur in duas amongst other places - which is why I'm not buying the whole 'they forbade it because it's imitation" story. The fact that some of the traditions on your site also offer an alternative that doesn't seem to even flow with the surah, almost as if to fill a gap left by the other saying, suggests to me that it came later. Even if we assume "Ameen" is a bid'a that was adopted by the certain individuals, and it became common, hamd seems like a bid'a that was meant to replace it in a less natural/flowing way by a group/individuals looking to distinguish themselves.

If we assume the ta'ifa were generally honest, and I would assume as much, than they'd come to their conclusion based on the evidence they received. When there's contradictory reports from the Imams, you suggested that because the number of non-Ameen reports was greater that this is why the scholars leaned in that direction. I don't know the numbers and I don't think we can use Wasael especially for that, but it seems to be common (irrespective of numbers) for Shi'i scholars to dismiss the reports that agree with the majority when there are contradictory reports, irrespective of quantity.

Edited September 1, 2011 by twoblade

[Ace Abbas 43]

I'm sorry to say this but this thread is somehow stupid.

Just because of the word "amin", you guys are arguing each other. Shame on you.

The conclusion is let the Shiites be with what they believe in (whether to say "amin" or not).

And let the Sunns be with what they believe in (whether to say "amin" or not).

This thread is more to Shia law, so it is supposed to be in laws forum (hope the mods take action).

In regarding to the first post, I don't see it has anything to do with Sunni.

Thank you.

[zakzaki 142]

I'm sorry to say this but this thread is somehow stupid.

Just because of the word "amin", you guys are arguing each other. Shame on you.

The conclusion is let the Shiites be with what they believe in (whether to say "amin" or not).

And let the Sunns be with what they believe in (whether to say "amin" or not).

This thread is more to Shia law, so it is supposed to be in laws forum (hope the mods take action).

In regarding to the first post, I don't see it has anything to do with Sunni.

Thank you.

Why should this thread be in the shia law when all shias are unanimously agree that it is a biddah to use this word after Surah Fatiha or Alhamd in the prayers but Sunnis use the word Amin after it? so it is wholly a Sunni issue. Do you also use it after Sura Fatiha?

I am asking its justification again and again to TwoBlades multiple times but he is dodging this question and could not show me the word existing in Quran again I ask him can he show a Sahih hadith of its usage in prayers (namaz) after surah Al Fatiha?

[twoblade 2]

can he show a Sahih hadith of its usage in prayers (namaz) after surah Al Fatiha?

[Philip 519]

Makes sense .. Been saying ameeen all my life and actually never questioned y .. Will stop doing that isA .. Unless there is evidence proving otherwise

To me the word amin in the end was always meant as "honestly" or "amant" bilLah