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Ali Hussain

Ameen After Fatiha

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Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

Secondly it was a bidah added much later on.

here is some more depth on this word

Historical records do indicate that the ancient Egyptians had, among their many gods, a god called Amen (the presumed personification of air or breath, represented by a ram or goose). However, no evidence can be found, linking the word amen (Hebrew: “truth”, “so be it”) to this, or any other, pagan god.

http://www.thercg.org/questions/p028.a.html

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[ 7362 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة ، عن جميل ، عن أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إذا كنت خلف إمام فقرأ الحمد وفرغ من قراءتها فقل أنت : الحمد لله ربّ العالمين ، ولا تقل : آمين.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-Hamdu lillaahi rabbi 'l-`aalameen", and do not say "ameen."

http://www.tashayyu....after-al-fatiha

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[ 7362 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن عبد الله بن المغيرة ، عن جميل ، عن أبي عبد الله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إذا كنت خلف إمام فقرأ الحمد وفرغ من قراءتها فقل أنت : الحمد لله ربّ العالمين ، ولا تقل : آمين.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-Hamdu lillaahi rabbi 'l-`aalameen", and do not say "ameen."

http://www.tashayyu....after-al-fatiha

Jaakallah it is quite evident that the first 3 caliphs or Mawiya (LA) made changes in Islam. I guess they made up their mind that whatever the Prophet (pbuh) or Ahlul bayt say they would do the opposite.

It is so evident whether be Tarawih or this biddah of Ammeen in Sunnis.

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First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

Secondly it was a bidah added much later on.

here is some more depth on this word

Historical records do indicate that the ancient Egyptians had, among their many gods, a god called Amen (the presumed personification of air or breath, represented by a ram or goose). However, no evidence can be found, linking the word amen (Hebrew: “truth”, “so be it”) to this, or any other, pagan god.

http://www.thercg.or...ons/p028.a.html

Then why do we say "Ameen" to duas?

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well we say "elahey ameen" don't we?

Yes but elahi means in aabic "My Allah" and we simply do not say Ameen like the Christians, which means the pagan God.

I am still waiting for the proof of the word present in Quran and hadith.

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Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

There seems to be an ijmaa` in our sect on "Ameen" invalidating (baaTil) your prayers. al-Mufeed, al-MurtaDa and al-Toosi all claim that it is an ijmaa` (consensus) that Ameen invalidates/breaks your Salaah.

al-Toosi says:

Þæá Âãíä íÞØÚ ÇáÕáÇÉ ÓæÇÁ ßÇä Ðáß Ýí ÎáÇá ÇáÍãÏ Ãæ ÈÚÏå ááÅãÇã æ ÇáãÃãæãíä æ Úáì ßá ÍÇá Ýí ÌåÑ ßÇä Ðáß Ãæ ÅÎÝÇÊ

"Saying Ameen breaks your Salaah whether during Al-Hamd (Al-FaatiHah) or after the Imaam and followers (in the jamaa'ah) and in EVERY situation whether (it is) outloud or done softly"

Source:

  • Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT fee fiqh Al-Imaamiyyah, vol. 1, pg. 106

al-Toosi also says:

ÏáíáäÇ: ÅÌãÇÚ ÇáÝÑÞÉ ÝÅäåã áÇ íÎÊáÝæä Ýí Çä Ðáß íÈØá ÇáÕáÇÉ¡ æ ÃíÖÇ ÝáÇ ÎáÇÝ Çäå ÅÐÇ áã íÞá Ðáß Çä ÕáÇÊå ÕÍíÍÉ ãÇÖíÉ.

æ ÇÎÊáÝæÇ ÅÐÇ ÞÇá Ðáß¡ ÝíäÈÛí ÇáÚãá Úáì ÇáÇÍÊíÇØ ÈÊÑßå.

æ Ñæí Úä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æ Âáå Çäå ÞÇá: Çä åÐå ÇáÕáÇÉ áÇ íÕáÍ ÝíåÇ Ôí‏Á ãä ßáÇã ÇáÂÏãííä æ Þæá Âãíä ãä ßáÇã ÇáÂÏãííä.

æ Ñæì ãÍãÏ ÇáÍáÈí ÞÇá: ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÃÞæá ÅÐÇ ÝÑÛÊ ãä ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ Âãíä ÞÇá: áÇ.

Our Proofs: The consensus of the sect, and there is no difference in that that it makes your salaah baaTil. And also, there is no difference of opinion that if you do not say it that your salah is still SaHeeH. And there are differences over if one should say it, but it is appropriate for one to abandon it out of precaution.

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "In prayer it is not correct that you speak from the words of humans in it. And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans."

And it is narrated from Muhamamd al-Halibee said, I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah about saying ameen when finishing al-Fatihah? He said: No."

Source:

  • al-Toosi, al-Khilaaf, vol. 1, pg. 334, ruling # 84

I am not able to find the hadeeth that al-Toosi has cited (in red) in our hadeeth books, so I am not able to check its authenticity.

al-Sadooq says:

æó áóÇ íóÌõæÒõ Ãóäú íõÞóÇáó ÈóÚúÏó ÞöÑóÇÁóÉö ÝóÇÊöÍóÉö ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö Âãöíäó áöÃóäóø Ðóáößó ßóÇäóÊú ÊóÞõæáõåõ ÇáäóøÕóÇÑóì

"And it is not permissible that he says after FaatiHah al-Kitaab: Ameen, because that is the saying of the Christians"

Source:

  • al-Sadooq, Man Laa YaHDuruh al-Faqeeh, vol. 1, pg. 390

Muhaqqiq al-Hilli says:

áÇ íÌæÒ Þæá Âãíä ÂÎÑ ÇáÍãÏ æ Þíá åæ ãßÑæå

"It is NOT premissible to say 'Ameen' after Al-Hamd (Al-FaatiHah), and (some scholars) say it is makrooh (disliked)."

Source:

  • Al-Muhaqqiq Al-Hillee (d. 676 AH), Sharaa-i' Al-Islaam fee Masaa-il Al-Halaal wa Al-Haraam, vol. 1, pg. 73

I believe the "some scholars" who Muhaqqiq al-Hilli is referring to is most likely Ibn Junayd, who said: Ãäå ÌæÒ ÇáÊÃãíä ÚÞíÈ ÇáÍãÏ æ ÛíÑåÇ æ ÇáÇÍÊíÇØ Ýí ÇáÊÑß ãØáÞÇ (That it is permissible to say Ameen after al-Hamd (al-Faatihah) and other (situations), and iHtiyaat (precaution) is to abandon it unconditionally (in all cases)"

There is no problem with saying Ameen outside of prayer after you recite a du`aa. As we have many aHaadeeth that our A'immah told us to say "Ameen" after reciting du`aa.

Wallaahu A`lim.

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

.....

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "In prayer it is not correct that you speak from the words of humans in it. And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans."

...

Source:

  • al-Toosi, al-Khilaaf, vol. 1, pg. 334, ruling # 84

I have made a slight mistake. The correct translation is as follows:

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

And it has been narated from the Prophet (pbuh) that he said: "That in this prayer it is not correct that you speak anything from the words of humans." (al-Toosi says) 'And the saying of Ameen is from words of the humans.'

Why does saying "Ameen" after Sura Fatiha in Salah make Salah batil (void)? Please provide some ayat/ahadith. Thank u!

If you are looking for an explicit hadeeth from our books that says "Saying Ameen voids your Salaah", you will not find that specific hadeeth. This ruling is more of an inferred ruling, mainly from the hadeeth that al-Toosi has mentioned (that is in red).

Wallaahu A`lim

(wasalam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Question: is it legitimate to say amen after the recitation of Al-faateha Sura?

Answer: unlike other schools of law, which think Amen should be said after the recitation of Al-faateha Sura and consider it as tradition, Shia has belief in not saying that. (1)

Sheikh Tusi said in <Khelaaf> that “saying amen invalidates the prayer, there is no difference, whether it is said quietly or loudly, after Al-faateha Sura or before that, from Imam (who leads congregation prayer) or Ma’mum (follower of prayer)”

Abu Easfaraayeni has said “if Imam recites Al-faateha Sura, before Ma’mums, they shouldn’t say amen, and if they do, should recite Al-faateha Sura again”. Some of Shaafii have the same belief. (2)

by the narratives which were about <placing hand over the other> we mentioned the quality of the prayer of the prophet –s.a-, in these narratives there isn’t mentioned anything about saying amen. That’s why, we say this is not part of prayer, nor Mustahab (recommended). In a narrative from Abu Hamid Saa’edi, it is said that “when he decided to perform prayer, raised his hands near the shoulders, uttered Takbir, afterwards he recited Al-faateha Sura, then uttered Takbir, and raised his hands up to his shoulders, then performed Ruku’ and put his palms on the knees”. (3)

As you see, in this narrative there isn’t anything about saying amen neither in Quran.

And it is narrated that the prophet –s.a- said “when you decides to perform prayer, turn to Qibla, utter Takbir and recite whatever you know from Quran by heart”. (4)

In the preceded narrative, it is not referred to saying amen neither in this phrase < whatever you know from Quran by heart >.

In a hadith from ‘Aayeshah, the prophet’s prayer is described as follows “the prophet –s.a- used to commence his prayer by uttering Takbir and reciting Al-faateha Sura. And while performing Ruku’, he kept his back and head at same level”. (5)

In other narratives which regard the quality of the prophet’s prayer, it isn’t mentioned anything about saying amen.

Confirming saying amen in prayer by some people is because of this Du’a (the act of supplication) < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>.

Here we refer to some points:

First: Du’a is an intentional act. The one, who utters Al-faateha Sura, has intended to recite from the holy Quran, not Du’a. And the peoples are obligated to recite this Sura, because the prayers without that are invalid.

Second: even if saying amen is on account of that Du’a < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, some of people <especially non-Arabs> who perform prayer, don’t know there is a Du’a among the verses of Al-faateha Sura that they should say amen.

Third: even if saying amen is for that Du’a < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, it should be clarified (like the word of Abu Haamed Esfaraayeni) it is not legitimate that Imam recites Al-faateha Sura before Ma’mums (followers of prayer), and when Imam recites < اهْدِنَا الصِّراطَ الْمُسْتَقِیمَ>, ma’mums should not start prayer.

Saying amen in prayer can be legitimate, if we do not consider it as the word of human, if we do, the prayer will be invalid. This is quoted from the prophet –s.a- that “words of the people shouldn’t be uttered in the prayer”. (6)

All of the above-mentioned words are based on the rules of Islam. So the pure Imams of Ahlul-Bayt are one of Thaqalayn, which is not separate from the holy Book of God. And they (pure Imams of Ahlul-Bayt) have made it unlawful to say amen in prayer.

Muhammad Halabi said “I questioned Imam Saadeq –pbuh- that “should I say amen after reciting Al-faateha Sura?”, “no” he answered. (7) (8)

1. Al-intisaar: page 144

2. Al-khilaf: volume 1, page 333

3. Sunan Baihaqi: volume 2, page 72, 73, 101, 102

4. Boluq Al-maraam: 92, number 2/250

5. Boluq Al-maraam: 99, number 8/257

6. Sahih Moslim: volume1, page 381, number 537

7. Wasaa’el Al-shia: volume 4, chapter 17 of prayer recitation chapters, hadith 3

8. The aspect of Shia’s creed, page 415

http://english.makarem.ir/squestions/index.php?qid=584&gro=2638&sw=

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Jaakallah it is quite evident that the first 3 caliphs or Mawiya (LA) made changes in Islam. I guess they made up their mind that whatever the Prophet (pbuh) or Ahlul bayt say they would do the opposite.

It is so evident whether be Tarawih or this biddah of Ammeen in Sunnis.

Do you hear yourself? The reactionary hadith is the one attributed to the Imams. Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

و روي عن النبي صلى الله عليه و آله انه قال: ان هذه الصلاة لا يصلح فيها شي‏ء من كلام الآدميين و قول آمين من كلام الآدميين.

...

I am not able to find the hadeeth that al-Toosi has cited (in red) in our hadeeth books, so I am not able to check its authenticity.

Assuming it's saheeh, why wouldn't Abu Abdullah mention this important fact when he ambiguously told his follower (i.e. without specifying that the saying was to be from Qur'an only and not the "words of man") "محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال، عن ابن بكير، عن زرارة قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): أكون مع الامام فأفرغ من القرأة قبل أن يفرغ قال: ابق آية ومجد الله واثن عليه فإذا فرغ فاقرء الآية واركع"?

If you are looking for an explicit hadeeth from our books that says "Saying Ameen voids your Salaah", you will not find that specific hadeeth. This ruling is more of an inferred ruling, mainly from the hadeeth that al-Toosi has mentioned (that is in red).

First of all the word Amen is not an arabic word but a pagan God name and is not found in Quran and hadith.

The word has it's roots in Hebrew for all intents and purposes. If you play the pagan God game, you can find similarities between a number of words and names of "pagan" Gods in random, unrelated periods. As far as suggesting that the word isn't rooted in 'Arabic, that's not a problem - if you pick up any substantial book on the words even used in Qur'an like al-Suyuti's itqaan, you'll see for yourself the different words that are adopted into 'Arabic. The Qur'an doesn't contain all the words used by 'Arabs at the time of it's revelation and it would be folly to suggest that - Clearly the 'Arabs at least knew it early on as (1) it's used in traditions attributed to the Prophet (saaw), (2) there were non-Muslims in 'Arabia that are known to have used it.

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Do you hear yourself? The reactionary hadith is the one attributed to the Imams. Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

Not only the word Amen coined by Mawiya (LA) but also the word Sunna wal Jamah, which does not exist in the Quran.

The ahlulbayt Imam (as) has clearly advised us not to use Amen in namaz.

Should'nt we follow the Prophet (pbuh) who said follow Quran and Ahlul bayt (as) after me. Is that not in your Sahih?

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Not only the word Amen coined by Mawiya (LA)

Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat?

Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

which does not exist in the Quran.

You are an expert from the Mufasireen and I'm just an ignorant so please enlighten me as to where in the Qur'an does Allah use takbeer which is also a part of salaat?

The ahlulbayt Imam (as) has clearly advised us not to use Amen in namaz.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2254118

Should'nt we follow the Prophet (pbuh) who said follow Quran and Ahlul bayt (as) after me. Is that not in your Sahih?

Is it?

In any case, it's hard to follow people when one day they say "ما أحسنها واخفض الصوت بها" and the other day they say "ولا تقل : آمين". Looks like Sunnis are just following the lie they told to everybody and you are following the truth which they only told secretly to a handful of followers :)

Edited by twoblade

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Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat? Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

Destroying the true teachings of Islaam gave people like 'Umar and Mu'aawiyah a lot of satisfaction. If adding an "ameen" after Faatihah serves that purposes then I bet they would do it :huh:

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Can you prove this? Or is everything not accepted in Twelver Fiqh part of the nefarious schemes of Mu'awiyah? I asked a simple question as well, so be honest with yourself: What purpose does it serve the supposed enemies of these particular individuals to invent this term and add it to one particular part of salaat?

Ameen is just a word invented by (or copied by) Mu'awiyah and the Sunnis?

You were the first person to possibly claim that Mawiya (la) added it

Even if "ameen" is in fact a bid'a (and God knows what benefit Mu'awiyah and friends got from this bid'a....), it wouldn't have cropped up as a result of the Prophet (saaw) forbidding it. He (saaw) wouldn't have made a prohibition for an action that had no reason to be taking place.

and I then confirmed it possibly because the word is

1) not Arabic,

2) not used in Quran or Sahih Hadith.

I am sure it is come from biddah's of Umar and Mawiya (LA) or included by Abu Hurraira who was a proven liar.

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You were the first person to possibly claim that Mawiya (la) added it

and I then confirmed it possibly because the word is

1) not Arabic,

2) not used in Quran or Sahih Hadith.

I am sure it is come from biddah's of Umar and Mawiya (LA)

- You're wrong about two. It's accepted that there were Christians/Jews in Haramayn at the time of Rasulallah (saw) and this word is in their books. These people were 'Arabs so the word is considered an adopted 'Arabic word same as many words used in the Qur'an. You should do some research on those words in general before making up such claims (refer to the book I mentioned).

- It might not be in Qur'an, but again:

Is "Allahu Akbar" - which you say in Salaat - in Qur'an?

- You said this word is not in any saheeh ahadith (I'm assuming Saheeh Shi'i ahadith). You are an expert of ahadith and I'm just an ignorant - but are you so sure about that? :)

- You're an expert faqih as well, and you're sure, 100% positive, that this is a bid'a of the people you believe hated 'Ali's (ra) descendants. You said so yourself in the top link. So can you please explain to me what benefit these nefarious people gained by doing this evil bid'a?

Destroying the true teachings of Islaam gave people like 'Umar and Mu'aawiyah a lot of satisfaction. If adding an "ameen" after Faatihah serves that purposes then I bet they would do it :huh:

Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

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Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

You've never seen Sunnis removing the Salawaat from their Salaah :o ? Mr. twoblade, the Umayyads did that too :rolleyes: . They shortened the Salawaat and removed it from Salah. Instead, they CURSED the Ahl al-Bayt (as). You know these things already.

Today, the issue of Salawaat in Salah is a matter of dispute among Sunnees, thanks to the Umayyads.

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Personally, if I wanted to destroy the true teachings of Islam, I'd do something more substantial in salaat. For example, why not remove "Allahum Sali 3la Muhammad..." which some people believe is meant for literal 3al. That'd be a far greater blow than adding "ameen". But if you're satisfied with that being their motive and this being their crime, alhamdulillah.

They had no problem with the nabi. They hated ahlul bayt because every single caliph that becomes the ruler after nabi starting from Abu Bakr were illegitime. The rightful caliphs were Ali (as) and his descendent, and these were the 12 Imams based on the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

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