Sex With Female Slaves?

[Guest]

Salaams,

i came across this verse from the Quran, 4:24:

"And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise".

This verse is in reference to masters marrying their female slaves.

Im having trouble understanding the meaning of this verse.

1) can the "right hand possesses" i.e the slave, still have a husband while under her master?

2) what happens to the husband?

3) what happens to the children of the woman and her first husband?

4) Also, this verse refers to the marrying of the slaves (right hand), does that mean that if the captive is married she is still halaal for the owner?

Please help me understand this verse because if the slave is already married then gets married to the owner, isnt that polygamy and zina? does it make the last marriage void? and taking away the rights of the husband and the slave wife?

i just want to understand this verse, so if anyone knows how to interpret this then please let me know,

JazakAllah

Edited August 27, 2011 by AlHamdulillah110

[Rohani]

Salam Alaykom

When did that happen? i know freeing slaves is highly encouraged in islam but even the mothers of some of our imams (as) were bought slave girls.

Edited August 27, 2011 by AlMuttaqi

[La fata illa Ali]

@ Mushu:

when was slavery outlawed????

Slavery sort of died down sure...But

I mean to say, when did the Prophet (pbuh) or Imam's (as) or Imam (atfs) outlaw it???

I was under the impression when Imam (atfs) returns and we inshallah fight with him, those ppl we capture, just as it is in islamic law, will be our slaves.

Canu tell me when Aimmah outlawed it with refernces from Quran and Hadith?

Thanks.

[Guest Mushu]

Salam Alaykom

When did that happen? i know freeing slaves is highly encouraged in islam but even the mothers of some of our imams (as) were bought slave girls.

@ Mushu:

when was slavery outlawed????

Slavery sort of died down sure...But

I mean to say, when did the Prophet (pbuh) or Imam's (as) or Imam (atfs) outlaw it???

I was under the impression when Imam (atfs) returns and we inshallah fight with him, those ppl we capture, just as it is in islamic law, will be our slaves.

Canu tell me when Aimmah outlawed it with refernces from Quran and Hadith?

Thanks.

My bad guys! I confused the outlawing of it with the reduction of it!

However,

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves;

[JimJam]

[Yusufali 90:1] I do call to witness this City;-

[Yusufali 90:2] And thou art a freeman of this City;-

[Yusufali 90:3] And (the mystic ties of) parent and child;-

[Yusufali 90:4] Verily We have created man into toil and struggle.

[Yusufali 90:5] Thinketh he, that none hath power over him?

[Yusufali 90:6] He may say (boastfully); Wealth have I squandered in abundance!

[Yusufali 90:7] Thinketh he that none beholdeth him?

[Yusufali 90:8] Have We not made for him a pair of eyes?-

[Yusufali 90:9] And a tongue, and a pair of lips?-

[Yusufali 90:10] And shown him the two highways?

[Yusufali 90:11] But he hath made no haste on the path that is steep.

[Yusufali 90:12] And what will explain to thee the path that is steep?-

[Yusufali 90:13] (It is:) freeing the bondman;

[Yusufali 90:14] Or the giving of food in a day of privation

[Yusufali 90:15] To the orphan with claims of relationship,

[Yusufali 90:16] Or to the indigent (down) in the dust.

[Yusufali 90:17] Then will he be of those who believe, and enjoin patience, (constancy, and self-restraint), and enjoin deeds of kindness and compassion.

[Yusufali 90:18] Such are the Companions of the Right Hand.

[Yusufali 90:19] But those who reject Our Signs, they are the (unhappy) Companions of the Left Hand.

[Yusufali 90:20] On them will be Fire vaulted over (all round).

[hasani]

Three sons of imam hasan(As) were from female slaves they include. Qasim, Abdullah and Abu bakr bin imam Hasan(as)

[Pascal]

I always found this section quiet particularly disturbing...it could be more or less sex slavery (and people did buy slaves for these purposes, at least some, im sure no one will deny this)

It's obviously open to abuse when you are a slave owner and have a position of power over your slave. My interpretation of the verse was that you did not even need to marry them but i guess i was wrong.

I'd also like to draw your attention to this article - https://secure.wikim...lam#Concubinage

People will shoot me down for this, however, i think you should read the quran in the 7th century context in which it was given to humanity. Not necessarily a steadfast book to be obeyed letter by letter for all time. For instance the quran talks about saabians as being people of the book and there are only a handful of them left.

Islam did bring about a bettering of the rights and conditions of slaves, the slaves were slightly better off under islamic law but they were still slaves. Unpaid, unfree, labourers for the benefit of their master, traded like a commodity. It did not say slavery is not permissible, which would of been the next logical step. I mean how would you like to be sold and made to work against your will, without living out your life or any of your dreams ever?

Obviously slavery has no place in the modern world but if you interpret the quran a certain way you could use it as justification for owning slaves and indeed many people in Africa still do.

Give that wikipedia article a read though, gives a decent summary.

I want to see other peoples views, this is one particular verse that has interested (and shocked me) for some time.

Edited August 28, 2011 by kingpomba

[Haji 2003]

This topic has been previously discussed at length and also fairly recently. Here some of the threads, some of them are quite long:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

I'd recommend people read at least some of that material.

[Guest]

I always found this section quiet particularly disturbing...it could be more or less sex slavery (and people did buy slaves for these purposes, at least some, im sure no one will deny this) It's obviously open to abuse when you are a slave owner and have a position of power over your slave. My interpretation of the verse was that you did not even need to marry them but i guess i was wrong. I'd also like to draw your attention to this article - https://secure.wikim...lam#Concubinage People will shoot me down for this, however, i think you should read the quran in the 7th century context in which it was given to humanity. Not necessarily a steadfast book to be obeyed letter by letter for all time. For instance the quran talks about saabians as being people of the book and there are only a handful of them left. Islam did bring about a bettering of the rights and conditions of slaves, the slaves were slightly better off under islamic law but they were still slaves. Unpaid, unfree, labourers for the benefit of their master, traded like a commodity. It did not say slavery is not permissible, which would of been the next logical step. I mean how would you like to be sold and made to work against your will, without living out your life or any of your dreams ever? Obviously slavery has no place in the modern world but if you interpret the quran a certain way you could use it as justification for owning slaves and indeed many people in Africa still do. Give that wikipedia article a read though, gives a decent summary. I want to see other peoples views, this is one particular verse that has interested (and shocked me) for some time.

Hi there,

Slavery was not umcommon in those days, however after the Islamic movement the 'slaves' were no longer treated in harsh conditions, they were more like servents and has many more rights. Nevertheless slavery did continue, and Islam did try to reform it, for example, not fulfiling a religious obligation would mean that the person would have to free a slave. its a lengthy subject to delve into, but i found this in hope that it might promote the Islamic stand on slavery.

just forward it one minute in

Also, upon doing some research into this topic of female servents marrying their masters. I found that that verse 4:24 refers to women captured during battle as servents, and if their husbands did not want them back the 'masters' were allowed to marry (mutah or temporory marriage) these women, giving them the status of a wife and giving her the dowry of her choice. This verse also continues to say that it is a marriage contract agreeable to both sides, and the man cannot fornicate with her before marriage. This was also done to protect the women at that time because women were treated harshly and marriage was a way of protecting them.

Also, thank you everyone for your posts. :)

Edited August 28, 2011 by AlHamdulillah110

[Haydar Husayn]

Also, upon doing some research into this topic of female servents marrying their masters. I found that that verse 4:24 refers to women captured during battle as servents, and if their husbands did not want them back the 'masters' were allowed to marry (mutah or temporory marriage) these women, giving them the status of a wife and giving her the dowry of her choice. This verse also continues to say that it is a marriage contract agreeable to both sides, and the man cannot fornicate with her before marriage. This was also done to protect the women at that time because women were treated harshly and marriage was a way of protecting them.

This isn't true. Read Sayyid Tabatabai's tafsir of the verse at http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/. In particular, he says that " It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband." And generally there is no need for any kind of marriage contract with one's slave, neither do they receive the status of a wife, or receive any dowry. On the other hand, a man could choose to free his slave and marry her if he wanted to.

[Guest]

This isn't true. Read Sayyid Tabatabai's tafsir of the verse at http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/. In particular, he says that " It has been narrated in traditions that the master of a married slave woman may take away that woman from her husband, keep her untouched for the prescribed term, then have sexual relation with her, and thereafter return her to her husband." And generally there is no need for any kind of marriage contract with one's slave, neither do they receive the status of a wife, or receive any dowry. On the other hand, a man could choose to free his slave and marry her if he wanted to.

the verse refers to 'mutah' which is a temporory marriage, i got the tafsir of the verse from agha Mahdi Pooyas Quran translation from the al islam website.

[Haydar Husayn]

the verse refers to 'mutah' which is a temporory marriage, i got the tafsir of the verse from agha Mahdi Pooyas Quran translation from the al islam website.

The verse refers to many things, with one of them being muta. However, when the Quran speaks of 'whom your right hand possess', it is talking about slave girls, and you do not need to marry (permanently or temporarily) slave girls in order to have sex with them. You should read the thread linked to by brother Haji 2003 to get more of an understanding of the Islamic position on slavery.

Regarding the right to seperate a slave girl from her husband, Sayyid Tabatabei cites the following narrations:

Muhammad ibn Muslim said: "I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the word of Allah: and all married women except those whom your right hands possess. He said: 'It is [like] this, that a man orders his slave (whom is married to his slave girl), and tells him, "Put aside your wife and do not go near her". Then he keeps her confined until she sees her blood; after that he touches her. Thereafter when she again sees blood after his touching her, he returns her to him [i.e., to her slave husband] without [any need of anew] marriage.'" (al-Kafi; at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

Ibn Muskan has narrated through Abu Basir, from one of the two Imams (a.s.), about the word of Allah: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess, that he said: "They are the women having husbands except those whom your right hands possess. If you have give a your slave girl in marriage to your slave boy, you may remove her from him if you so wish." "I said: 'Do you see, if he has given her in marriage to other than his own slave boy?' He said: '(Then) he has no right to remove (her from him) until she is sold away; then if he sells her, her affair is transferred to other than him (i.e, to the buyer); then the buyer may separate (her from her husband) if he so desires, and may reconfirm (the marriage) if he so wishes." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

[Guest]

The verse refers to many things, with one of them being muta. However, when the Quran speaks of 'whom your right hand possess', it is talking about slave girls, and you do not need to marry (permanently or temporarily) slave girls in order to have sex with them. You should read the thread linked to by brother Haji 2003 to get more of an understanding of the Islamic position on slavery.

Regarding the right to seperate a slave girl from her husband, Sayyid Tabatabei cites the following narrations:

Muhammad ibn Muslim said: "I asked Abu Ja'far (a.s.) about the word of Allah: and all married women except those whom your right hands possess. He said: 'It is [like] this, that a man orders his slave (whom is married to his slave girl), and tells him, "Put aside your wife and do not go near her". Then he keeps her confined until she sees her blood; after that he touches her. Thereafter when she again sees blood after his touching her, he returns her to him [i.e., to her slave husband] without [any need of anew] marriage.'" (al-Kafi; at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

Ibn Muskan has narrated through Abu Basir, from one of the two Imams (a.s.), about the word of Allah: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess, that he said: "They are the women having husbands except those whom your right hands possess. If you have give a your slave girl in marriage to your slave boy, you may remove her from him if you so wish." "I said: 'Do you see, if he has given her in marriage to other than his own slave boy?' He said: '(Then) he has no right to remove (her from him) until she is sold away; then if he sells her, her affair is transferred to other than him (i.e, to the buyer); then the buyer may separate (her from her husband) if he so desires, and may reconfirm (the marriage) if he so wishes." (at-Tafsir, al-'Ayyashi)

but thats cruel, wheres the justice and fairness in using someone elses wife? dont they get a say in it at all? this needs to be discussed in detail with an aalim because it doesnt make sense. It is not a form of zina? and what about the masters wife, doesnt she have a say eithier? what if its a female master with a male servent, does the same rule apply? it just doesnt make any sense to me. Maybe the answers given to us by our alims are to vague and not clear enough, because the verse is quite deep and needs proper analysing. Im going to consult an alim about this. Ill keep you posted on what happens.

Edited August 29, 2011 by AlHamdulillah110

[Haydar Husayn]

but thats cruel, wheres the justice and fairness in using someone elses wife?

If someone is your slave, it means you own them. Arguably, it would be unjust if they weren't 'available' to their master.

dont they get a say in it at all?

No. Why would they? If they had a say, they wouldn't be slaves.

this needs to be discussed in detail with an aalim because it doesnt make sense.

Fine. Just make sure he backs up his position with the Qur'an and hadiths, and not some wishy-washy apologetic nonsense.

It is not a form of zina?

No. Zina is when you have sex with someone you are not lawfully allow to have sex with. Marriage (permanent or temporary) or ownership give you that lawful right. In fact, from the point of view of sexual availability, your wife is like your slave, since she must be available at all times and can't really refuse under normal circumstances.

and what about the masters wife, doesnt she have a say eithier?

No.

what if its a female master with a male servent, does the same rule apply?

No.

it just doesnt make any sense to me.

Inshallah it will make more sense when you reflect on the issue with a clear head.

Maybe the answers given to us by our alims are to vague and not clear enough, because the verse is quite deep and needs proper analysing. Im going to consult an alim about this. Ill keep you posted on what happens.

Like I said, go ahead, but I doubt your alim will be more learned than Sayyid Tabatabei, and remember that he gave proofs.

By the way, here is a thread you might want to read, that have some good references (that you can perhaps take to your alim):

http://www.shiachat....ex-with-slaves/

There are some other good ones, but I can't locate them right now.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[Flowers91]

this is so disturbing.........................

[Significance of 12]

I always found this section quiet particularly disturbing...it could be more or less sex slavery (and people did buy slaves for these purposes, at least some, im sure no one will deny this)

It's obviously open to abuse when you are a slave owner and have a position of power over your slave. My interpretation of the verse was that you did not even need to marry them but i guess i was wrong.

I'd also like to draw your attention to this article - https://secure.wikim...lam#Concubinage

People will shoot me down for this, however, i think you should read the quran in the 7th century context in which it was given to humanity. Not necessarily a steadfast book to be obeyed letter by letter for all time. For instance the quran talks about saabians as being people of the book and there are only a handful of them left.

Islam did bring about a bettering of the rights and conditions of slaves, the slaves were slightly better off under islamic law but they were still slaves. Unpaid, unfree, labourers for the benefit of their master, traded like a commodity. It did not say slavery is not permissible, which would of been the next logical step. I mean how would you like to be sold and made to work against your will, without living out your life or any of your dreams ever?

Obviously slavery has no place in the modern world but if you interpret the quran a certain way you could use it as justification for owning slaves and indeed many people in Africa still do.

Slavery was obviously the luxury for Arabs at that time ( everywhere for that matter), and Our Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) wanted to abolish it but it wouldn't be that easy. slavery is the worst way of treating a human and its after effects stays for generations and even millenniums. Like the case of United states, Ibrahim Lincoln did the best he could by making it illegal (atleast for confederacy) and finally long after his death, it was made unlawful. but you see the effects are still there and ever growing. the hate and animosity is never relieved. because the person dignity, self respect and human values are at stake.

so our holy prophet had a better plan by the will of Allah. he didn't abolish it. but he said who ever buys a slave, should feed him, shelter him, clothe him, protect him.....secondly educate them, thirdly teach them skills and trades and finally release them after one year

As far as sex slavery is concerned, it was at high peaks among Arabs but the prophet abolished that completely. slaves were there to make your life easier not to quench your thirst and desire for sex just because you were bored of your wife.

[satyaban]

For some they only way they would ever have sex is to commit the most abhorant and odios of offenses to God, that is to own another person. I can't believe there are men in this century who can even have a reasoned conversation about it. Maybe someday you can share the experience of being owned by gay Bubba.

this is so disturbing.........................

If the Quran condones it perhaps you must accept it. Perhaps one of these cretins would like to place a bid for you?

Hi there,

Slavery was not umcommon in those days, however after the Islamic movement the 'slaves' were no longer treated in harsh conditions, they were more like servents and has many more rights. Nevertheless slavery did continue, and Islam did try to reform it, for example, not fulfiling a religious obligation would mean that the person would have to free a slave. its a lengthy subject to delve into, but i found this in hope that it might promote the Islamic stand on slavery.

just forward it one minute in

Also, upon doing some research into this topic of female servents marrying their masters. I found that that verse 4:24 refers to women captured during battle as servents, and if their husbands did not want them back the 'masters' were allowed to marry (mutah or temporory marriage) these women, giving them the status of a wife and giving her the dowry of her choice. This verse also continues to say that it is a marriage contract agreeable to both sides, and the man cannot fornicate with her before marriage. This was also done to protect the women at that time because women were treated harshly and marriage was a way of protecting them.

Also, thank you everyone for your posts. :)

What do you think would be a reasonable bid for a Sunni woman captured in Syria who is in her twenties, remember she could give you many years of service.

@ Mushu:

when was slavery outlawed????

Slavery sort of died down sure...But

I mean to say, when did the Prophet (pbuh) or Imam's (as) or Imam (atfs) outlaw it???

I was under the impression when Imam (atfs) returns and we inshallah fight with him, those ppl we capture, just as it is in islamic law, will be our slaves.

Canu tell me when Aimmah outlawed it with refernces from Quran and Hadith?

Thanks.

What do you think would be a reasonable bid for a Sunni woman captured in Syria who is in her twenties, remember she could give you many years of service?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

^^lol why do people who have no clue about Islamic rulings come to section like this?

[Basra]

For some they only way they would ever have sex is to commit the most abhorant and odios of offenses to God, that is to own another person. I can't believe there are men in this century who can even have a reasoned conversation about it. Maybe someday you can share the experience of being owned by gay Bubba.

If the Quran condones it perhaps you must accept it. Perhaps one of these cretins would like to place a bid for you?

What do you think would be a reasonable bid for a Sunni woman captured in Syria who is in her twenties, remember she could give you many years of service.

What do you think would be a reasonable bid for a Sunni woman captured in Syria who is in her twenties, remember she could give you many years of service?

Your a fool, Islam laid down protections for "slaves" (that were only allowed to be captured in just defensive Jihad warfare against an enemy that already attacked or oppressed us Muslims) and that is why Islam called for feeding the "slaves" from our own food, clothing them in our own clothes, working with them as brothers, and freeing them you clown.

Sahih Muslim Book 015, Number 4092

Al-Ma'rur b. Suwaid said: We went to Abu Dharr (Ghifari) in Rabadha and he had a mantle over him, and his slave had one like it. We said: Abu Dharr, had you joined them together, it would have been a complete garment. Thereupon he said: There was an altercation between me and one of the persons among my brothers. His mother was a non-Arab. I reproached him for his mother. He complained against me to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him). As I met Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) he said: Abu Dharr, you are a person who still has (in him the remnants) of the days (of Ignorance). Thereupon I said: Allah's Messenger, he who abuses (other) persons, they abuse (in return) his father and mother. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Abu Dharr, you are a person who still has (the remnants) of Ignorance in him They (your servants and slaves) are your brothers. Allah has put them in your care, so feed them with what you eat, clothe them with what you wear. and do not burden them beyond their capacities; but if you burden them (with an unbearable burden), then help them (by sharing their extra burden).

end quote.

And also: Holy Qur'an Surah 24:33-

Qur'an 24:33- YUSUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

end quote.

Islam came to reform the genocidal laws of the racist Biblical "Old Testament"

Deuteronomy 7:1-3

¹ When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga[Edited Out]es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— ² and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.^[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. ³ Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, (NIV Bible)

Deuteronomy 20:16- However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. (NIV Bible)

Islam treated our "slaves" (that we must treat as complete equals that wear our clothes, eat our food, and female "slaves" which we cannot force in to either sex or the even worse crime of prostitution again see Holy Qur'an Surah 24:33, that again also calls for freeing all slaves) that were only from legitimate defensive warfare, wherein the Muslims fought those attacking and oppressing us first, better than your murderous Amerikkkan Empire even treats those your Amerikkkan mega corporations abuse in sweatshops around the so-called "Third World" today as we speak.

http://articles.cnn....ntists?_s=PM:US

Wealthy (from theft, slaver, colonialism, and genocide) Amerikkkan imperialist Empire uses the majority of the world's natural resources

http://www.ecofuture...k/pkar9506.html

Quote- Percentage of the word's population comprised of Americans: 5%

Percentage of the world's resources consumed by Americans: 30% [38]

• 
  

The amount of energy used by one American is equivalent to that used by:

3 Japanese

6 Mexicans

14 Chinese

38 Indians

168 Bengalis

531 Ethiopians [39]

end quote.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Basra

[satyaban]

Basra

There you go again, you respond to a post with 98% having nothing to do with the topic. But why expect more from a child. You want to have sex so bad and can't you just wish you had a sex slave. You better be saving money because any women who gets to know you will never have sex with you so you will have to buy it. LMAO

You don't have many friends do you? I am not surprised.

Edited August 29, 2011 by satyaban

[Basra]

Basra

There you go again, you respond to a post with 98% having nothing to do with the topic. But why expect more from a child. You want to have sex so bad and can't you just wish you had a sex slave. You better be saving money because any women who gets to know you will never have sex with you so you will have to buy it. LMAO

You don't have many friends do you? I am not surprised.

Again another completely worthless post by you. I post tons of information, including hadith and verses from the Holy Qur'an, and all you do is throw out some cheap attempts at insults. I think anyone actually seriously reading this can see the truth is on my side, and you are a cheap imperialist apologist, Islamophobe, and idiot.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Basra

[Guest]

Basra

There you go again, you respond to a post with 98% having nothing to do with the topic. But why expect more from a child. You want to have sex so bad and can't you just wish you had a sex slave. You better be saving money because any women who gets to know you will never have sex with you so you will have to buy it. LMAO

You don't have many friends do you? I am not surprised.

please do not insult one another by acting like children, this is a sensative topic which i just wanted some explanation on, a discussion, not abusing someones faith or someones comments. Please show respect for onr another.

The ayat from the Quran also states "....and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed..." showing that its a mutual discision, not to be forced on women, and these women have the status of wives through marriage, when have you ever heard of a slave having the same status of a wife? men in those days use to rape, abuse, kill, sell their female slaves for sex or money, they were a form of currency, at least Islam brought something to give those women some status and support.

Edited August 29, 2011 by AlHamdulillah110

[satyaban]

please do not insult one another by acting like children, this is a sensative topic which i just wanted some explanation on, a discussion, not abusing someones faith or someones comments. Please show respect for onr another.

The ayat from the Quran also states "....and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed..." showing that its a mutual discision, not to be forced on women, and these women have the status of wives through marriage, when have you ever heard of a slave having the same status of a wife? men in those days use to rape, abuse, kill, sell their female slaves for sex or money, they were a form of currency, at least Islam brought something to give those women some status and support.

The point is that the women being talked about are slaves which invalidates everything being said about them.

[ImAli]

Can I ask why do some people on here know every hadith there is to know about mutah, sex, and polygamy? Do you know all of the other hadiths or just those? This is not to start conflict but a serious question.

[Haydar Husayn]

Can I ask why do some people on here know every hadith there is to know about mutah, sex, and polygamy? Do you know all of the other hadiths or just those? This is not to start conflict but a serious question.

I guess you are talking about me, although I don't know even a fraction of the hadiths on the subjects you mention. The reason for knowing about some of the hadiths on these topics is in order to know what Islam's real position is on them. Not everyone wants to take an apologetic approach to Islam, and pretend that some things aren't in the religion, when they clearly are (or to pretend Islam says something different than it really does).

Obviously, these are not the only hadiths I am interested in, but the difference between someone like me and perhaps some like you is that you would probably welcome all those 'feel-good' hadiths on subjects such as charity, prayer, family relations, etc, but would rather the hadiths on the more 'controversial' subjects not be brought up. On the other hand, I welcome hadiths on all subjects, and prefer that people back up their views with islamic sources and not so much their personal opinion.

[ImAli]

I guess you are talking about me, although I don't know even a fraction of the hadiths on the subjects you mention. The reason for knowing about some of the hadiths on these topics is in order to know what Islam's real position is on them. Not everyone wants to take an apologetic approach to Islam, and pretend that some things aren't in the religion, when they clearly are (or to pretend Islam says something different than it really does).

Obviously, these are not the only hadiths I am interested in, but the difference between someone like me and perhaps some like you is that you would probably welcome all those 'feel-good' hadiths on subjects such as charity, prayer, family relations, etc, but would rather the hadiths on the more 'controversial' subjects not be brought up. On the other hand, I welcome hadiths on all subjects, and prefer that people back up their views with islamic sources and not so much their personal opinion.

Actually I wasn't thinking about YOU so stop being paranoid....I was asking about quite a few people on here who have seem to made it their life's mission. I even had a guy admit to me once that when he was younger he looked for every hadith he could that had anything to do with sex or women. So there you go this is why I asked that...not in order to avoid the controversial topics but for them to ask themselves why they are so obsessed with sex when there are millions of other things they could be learning.

[Haydar Husayn]

Actually I wasn't thinking about YOU so stop being paranoid....I was asking about quite a few people on here who have seem to made it their life's mission. I even had a guy admit to me once that when he was younger he looked for every hadith he could that had anything to do with sex or women. So there you go this is why I asked that...not in order to avoid the controversial topics but for them to ask themselves why they are so obsessed with sex when there are millions of other things they could be learning.

Sounds like you have already made you mind up on why people research such hadiths, so why ask?

I can't speak for everyone, but to me your assumption that people read these hadiths because they are obsessed with sex is ridiculous (especially considering the world we live in, which is saturated with sex). However, I will admit that watching apologetic Muslims squirm when confronted with some 'uncomfortable' realities about the religion is sometimes enjoyable in its own way. More and more though, I'm wondering if it is better some people stay in the dark, because they clearly have some problems handling the truth.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[ImAli]

Sounds like you have already made you mind up on why people research such hadiths, so why ask?

I can't speak for everyone, but to me your assumption that people read these hadiths because they are obsessed with sex is ridiculous (especially considering the world we live in, which is saturated with sex). However, I will admit that watching apologetic Muslims squirm when confronted with some 'uncomfortable' realities about the religion is sometimes enjoyable in its own way. More and more though, I'm wondering if it is better some people stay in the dark, because they clearly have some problems handling the truth.

To be honest I wasn't thinking anything about you when I asked the question so why are you so angry? ;)

Edited August 29, 2011 by ImAli

[Haydar Husayn]

To be honest I wasn't thinking anything about you when I asked the question so why are you so angry? ;)

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as angry. Maybe I should use more emoticons. :)

Considering recent threads, and the fact that I think I'm the only one who posted any kind of 'pro-slavery' hadiths on this subject, it's wasn't unreasonable to conclude you were talking about me (amongst others). The fact that you weren't doesn't really change anything though.

[ImAli]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as angry. Maybe I should use more emoticons. :)

Considering recent threads, and the fact that I think I'm the only one who posted any kind of 'pro-slavery' hadiths on this subject, it's wasn't unreasonable to conclude you were talking about me (amongst others). The fact that you weren't doesn't really change anything though.

Actually I am talking about one person in particular on this forum who has seemed to have made a certain thing his life's mission and it isn't you. I am hoping he will pay a visit later.

[Waiting for HIM]

Actually I am talking about one person in particular on this forum who has seemed to have made a certain thing his life's mission and it isn't you. I am hoping he will pay a visit later.

Sister ImAli, "beware" he is watching from a distance, and he is soon going to convert you into thinking like him. <repeat 40 times> ~Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated~

Not to mention, the rest of us do agree with him to some extent, after all he comes laced with all the proofs and etc. :)

[Haydar Husayn]

Actually I am talking about one person in particular on this forum who has seemed to have made a certain thing his life's mission and it isn't you. I am hoping he will pay a visit later.

Oh, I see who you are talking about. I don't think he has that much interest in slavery threads though, but I could be wrong.

Not to mention, the rest of us do agree with him to some extent, after all he comes laced with all the proofs and etc. :)

Yeah, I don't find what he says to be that controversial to be honest. He just sometimes words things in a slightly confrontational way.

[ImAli]

Sister ImAli, "beware" he is watching from a distance, and he is soon going to convert you into thinking like him. <repeat 40 times> ~Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated~

Not to mention, the rest of us do agree with him to some extent, after all he comes laced with all the proofs and etc. :)

Waiting For HIM while he does have proofs there are others who could twist it into meaning something completely different, then yet another person can twist it into another thing. Why else would there be so many disagreements on ShiaChat since just about everything on here is interpreted and viewed differently. I mean really the only thing written in stone is that there is only one God. Everything else in this world has exceptions depending on the circumstances and people would still disagree. For example it is haram to kill someone.....but not always..........and then people would disagree on if killing was the appropriate action and all would have different hadiths on why it was or wasn't appropriate.

Edited August 29, 2011 by ImAli

[Waiting for HIM]

Waiting For HIM while he does have proofs there are others who could twist it into meaning something completely different, then yet another person can twist it into another thing. Why else would there be so many disagreements on ShiaChat since just about everything on here is interpreted and viewed differently. I mean really the only thing written in stone is that there is only one God. Everything else in this world has exceptions depending on the circumstances and people would still disagree. For example it is haram to kill someone.....but not always..........and then people would disagree on if killing was the appropriate action and all would have different hadiths on why it was or wasn't appropriate.

Precisely the reason that Islam has the concept of Marjaia' in absence of the last Imam (atf) so not everybody does his/her own ijtehad and all be wrong all at the same time (unfortunately what we see in our Sunni brothers).

[ImAli]

Precisely the reason that Islam has the concept of Marjaia' in absence of the last Imam (atf) so not everybody does his/her own ijtehad and all be wrong all at the same time (unfortunately what we see in our Sunni brothers).

Exactly :D but it is a sad fact that this is often forgotten and people are attacked for asking questions and bringing up what if situations on here.