If God Doesn't Need Our Prayer, Why Get Punished?

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 26, 2011

If God is needless of anything, even our prayer, then why does he want us to pray? You might say that, yes, it doesn't benefit God but it benefits "us". Well ok, let's go with this...

What if I don't want this benefit? Why would I be punished for it? Its like me Telling someone to do a chore, but it doesn't affect or benefit me in the slightest bit. Though, I tell the person that if he doesn't do this chore then I will kill him. Wheres the logic in this?

Thanks.

**Muhammed Ali** · August 26, 2011

When you love a child you tell them to do something (or to refrain from something) otherwise you threaten punishment. That act will benefit the child and if the child does not want that benefit then you still tell them to do it because you love them. Later in life the child will thank their parents for making them do those things. Allah is the parent and the benefit.

The threat of punishment is one of the things that allows for the existence of freewill and intelligence.

I have really simplified the first point and not elaborated on the second one. If you want I can say more about this subject.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Muhammed Ali

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 26, 2011

But.. If the child doesn't want this specific benefit and decides to disobey, is it Just for the parents to burn their child inside an inferno? Not only would this be unjust, but it wouldn't make sense to begin with because the parents would love their child way too much to do such an abhorrent act. What difference would it make to the parents? Yes, they would be upset but they wouldn't chastise their child eternally as they are way to merciful and loving to do such a thing. Instead, they would send their child for counselling or on some sort of disciplinary course. Even then, if the child doesn't want to listen and doesn't want the benefit, the child does not warrant eternal punishment as obeying or disobeying this benefit wouldn't really make a difference, because the parents would want it for the child but not NEED it. Hence the child can come back home and obey his parents on all matters except this specific benefit.

Please elaborate on your second point, please. Thanks.

Jay · August 26, 2011

But.. If the child doesn't want this specific benefit and decides to disobey, is it Just for the parents to burn their child inside an inferno? Not only would this be unjust, but it wouldn't make sense to begin with because the parents would love their child way too much to do such an abhorrent act.

God is not a parent, and we aren't children. Punishment isn't unjust, it's a price to pay. It's unjust for Allah (swt) to punish you for doing something you didn't know, but if you are well aware of the consequences, it's perfectly just for him to execute the punishment. If anything, it's unjust for him NOT to punish you, because you deliberately disobeyed him.

What difference would it make to the parents?

In life, our intelligence is our parent, and our desire is our child. You take responsibility for what your child does. That is the difference. You are the parent for your child and God is the parent for your child's parent.

The difference between God and a parent is he doesn't take responsibility for our actions, nor does he lose anything if we disobey; his warnings are simple, and disobedience is just as simple. So with God, its always neutral, whether you obey or disobey. But we, as human beings, can only benefit from him. In disobedience, we will always lose and must be the price (i.e. punishment).

Yes, they would be upset but they wouldn't chastise their child eternally as they are way to merciful and loving to do such a thing. Instead, they would send their child for counselling or on some sort of disciplinary course. Even then, if the child doesn't want to listen and doesn't want the benefit, the child does not warrant eternal punishment as obeying or disobeying this benefit wouldn't really make a difference, because the parents would want it for the child but not NEED it. Hence the child can come back home and obey his parents on all matters except this specific benefit.
Please elaborate on your second point, please. Thanks.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at here.

MysticKnight · August 26, 2011

Reality is Islam has very unmerciful unforgiving non-forbearing thought of God. He has very little tolerance. You desire this world at all, and you earn eternal hell. You disobey God and you deserve hell.

I don't know what it even means to say "most merciful" when there are humans whom are more merciful towards disobedience then what is attributed to God in Islam.

We also make so huge any evil and make so little of good. That is why people of other faiths can do good, but if they reject Islam, would still be deemed evil deserving of eternal torment. Their one crime of disbelieving is made so huge that no matter what good they do, it can never be good enough.

It has nothing to do with justice, it's everything to do with adjusting one thought of justice and morality to what one is taught in religion.

.IceMan. · August 26, 2011

"I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me". (Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:56)

Calm · August 27, 2011

A teacher does not need the student. The student is in dire need of the teacher.The teacher will takes marks off as a punishment when you don't well in your test regardless of their needlessness of you. The student who strives to get the good marks is the winner. Goes unpunished. Nothing goes in the pocket of the teacher, the student's effort goes to pay himself back.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Calm

faith200 · August 27, 2011

we need Allah, if we dont pray then we will not be clean, to be divine u need prayer

Pascal · August 27, 2011

If God is needless of anything, even our prayer, then why does he want us to pray? You might say that, yes, it doesn't benefit God but it benefits "us". Well ok, let's go with this...
What if I don't want this benefit? Why would I be punished for it? Its like me Telling someone to do a chore, but it doesn't affect or benefit me in the slightest bit. Though, I tell the person that if he doesn't do this chore then I will kill him. Wheres the logic in this?
Thanks.

My analysis of the whole idea is thus - God doesn't need your prayer (obviously).

I think the idea of prayer, as you said, is more to benefit yourself. It reminds you of God, sort of how looking at pictures of your family reminds you of them. It not only reminds you of God, it reminds you of all the other things that go along with your religion like the impetus to be a moral and good person. It is also more of a spiritual thing (which i haven't experienced, so i cant really comment) about a connection with the divine as well. Some of my religious friends tell me "praying feels so good", so theres that as well.

If God doesn't need your prayers(he is all powerful), my belief is you certainly don't *need* to pray.

If strolling around nature or seeing human love reminds you of God enough for yourself, then that is fine.

If you like praying or want a little more reminding, then, go for that as well.

So, i think, personally, prayer is suggested but shouldn't be mandatory.

Why would a all loving all powerful divine being create an arbitrary rule "Pray to me(even though i need no worship) or you will go to hell." with the express purpose to punish you if you violate said rule? Surely such a rule does not need to exist in the first place. So, i think, it is suggested but not mandatory (for any conception of a monotheistic God, not one particular conception of islam/judaism/ect).

I don't believe God made us exclusively for his worship, why would an all powerful being bother bringing us into life and going through all of lifes experiences with the express and exclusive purpose of only worshiping him, if he does not need worship? Seems like a pointless and contradictory action from a divine being. If our only purpose was to worship him, he would of been much better served by robots who constantly worship, not that he needs that anyway.

Edited August 27, 2011 by kingpomba

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 27, 2011

My analysis of the whole idea is thus - God doesn't need your prayer (obviously).
I think the idea of prayer, as you said, is more to benefit yourself. It reminds you of God, sort of how looking at pictures of your family reminds you of them. It not only reminds you of God, it reminds you of all the other things that go along with your religion like the impetus to be a moral and good person. It is also more of a spiritual thing (which i haven't experienced, so i cant really comment) about a connection with the divine as well. Some of my religious friends tell me "praying feels so good", so theres that as well.
If God doesn't need your prayers(he is all powerful), my belief is you certainly don't *need* to pray.
If strolling around nature or seeing human love reminds you of God enough for yourself, then that is fine.
If you like praying or want a little more reminding, then, go for that as well.
So, i think, personally, prayer is suggested but shouldn't be mandatory.
Why would a all loving all powerful divine being create an arbitrary rule "Pray to me(even though i need no worship) or you will go to hell." with the express purpose to punish you if you violate said rule? Surely such a rule does not need to exist in the first place. So, i think, it is suggested but not mandatory (for any conception of a monotheistic God, not one particular conception of islam/judaism/ect).
I don't believe God made us exclusively for his worship, why would an all powerful being bother bringing us into life and going through all of lifes experiences with the express and exclusive purpose of only worshiping him, if he does not need worship? Seems like a pointless and contradictory action from a divine being. If our only purpose was to worship him, he would of been much better served by robots who constantly worship, not that he needs that anyway.

Very good point and reasoning. I don't think i could refute you, even if I wanted to. In fact, there are many people who pray and don't benefit from it at all, it's a mere ritual for them and it doesn't change who they are. This proves what you said, that praying isn't for everyone and there are different effective ways of reaching spirituality and reminding yourself of God. To me, remembering AhlulBayt makes me wary of God and it's a form of worship to God, anyway.

True, God can't be that petty that he would punish you in the inferno forever just because you failed to do an act which He doesn't need in the first place. God is the most understanding and most wise, so he is well aware that there are other ways for His creation of remembering Him, not just ritualistic prayers.

**Abbas.** · August 27, 2011

If God is needless of anything, even our prayer, then why does he want us to pray?

One of religion's main goal is moral education and progression. A society cannot progress, as a whole, if it is extremely material or spiritual. That is why, Islam has proposed a balanced lifestyle which entails a bit of both. Islam considers such a balanced lifestyle as 'worship of Allah' since we (muslims) are obeying God in all aspects.

Now ofcourse we have certain programs (secondary principles) in Islam which need to be practised. If one chooses not to practise them, there is likelihood of one being either punished or forgiven by Almighty. Since we do not know of one anothers' circumstances of life and every hidden secret and intention behind our acts, we cannot do much other than leave the judgement to our Creator. However, in regards to the reasoning behind the punishment for not practising certain practical programs of Islam such as Salaat, Zakaat e.t.c, I believe it is because we humans are naturally motivated in different ways and since our Creator knows us more than we know ourselves, He has left many options for us to utilise so that we be encouraged and practically focus on things which benefit us individually and as a society. If we ponder on our nature and our lives, some of us are more motivated through fear (E.g a lot of us wouldn't bother going to work if it wasn't for the fear of losing job or not getting paid), others through encouragement/acknowledgement (E.g many of us tend to make more effort when our dreams/goals are clear and that we solemnly believe in achieving them), yet others through compassion/love e.t.c I am reminded of a saying of Maula Ali a.s in Nehj-ul-balagha in which he explains the pillar of faith:

When Imam Ali was asked about Faith in Religion, he replied that the structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad.
Endurance is composed of four attributes: eagerness, fear, piety and anticipation (of death). so whoever is eager for Paradise will ignore temptations; whoever fears the fire of Hell will abstain from sins; whoever practices piety will easily bear the difficulties of life and whoever anticipates death will hasten towards good deeds.
Conviction has also four aspects ....

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 27, 2011

Also another point I want to mention.

Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well). Not only this, but you're expected to do certain moves at the same time and reach asceticism and remember god. How is this even possible when you have to make sure your flexes and recitation are done properly? This, in itself, is a distraction to reaching God. Meditation seems more effective than this!

What's more, we're expected to pray 5 times a day, every single day, 365 days a year (without a weekend break mind you) and expected to remember God this way. Do you know how strenuous, time consuming, and tiresome this is? Our brains will die down and this prayer will become extremely mundane and pointless. Wait a second .. It's not only salaah, but the ritual ablutions that "must" be performed before we commence the prayer, even if we're already clean.

All of this is extremely difficult, especially if you live in the west and youre working and have a family to support, it's almost impossible and burdening.

The fact is, and the point I'm trying to get at, is that we all have ups and downs in our moods and interests and our bodies are susceptible to lethargy, especially after a long hard day at work. There is a time and place for everything, especially worshipping God, and one cannot be expected to remember God in a very unreasonable manner, every single day without fail. Doing this would only make one averse to the rules of God.

That's why there are definitely other ways of remembering God not just ritualistic Salaah. Some people are able to do Salaah and the Ablutions but not everyone. Like KingPomba said, you can remember god by simply strolling around nature and appreciating its beauty, which would lead to thanking god for his beneficience and grace. Rememebering certain holy personalities also makes you remember God, so the catalyst effect would be that your deeds Itself becomes a worship to God.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Çåá ÇáÈíÊ

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 27, 2011

Any feedback? ^

thenamelessone · August 27, 2011

Microsoft doesnt need your money so why do you have to pay anything for software?

We were created for ibadaat, this is not worship, this is not english. It is Arabic; عبادة The person who said they do not believe we were created for ibadaat then does not believe in the Quran as the revealed word of Allah. To each his own.

To answer the OP: If we beleive in an intelligent creator, then the next step is faith and belief that this being/thing/shay not only knows us better than we do ourselves, but gave us some rules to live by, some things that are good for us verses the bad we might have done without someone saying hey! this is good for you. If this is your particular belief, then look at what good offering salat might be 5 times a day, in what ways physically as well as psychologically would you benefit from this? Also, if this creator does in fact exist, then in what ways might you benefit from asking HIM 5 times a day to keep you going on the 'straight path' as well as asking for the forgiveness of your sins and mistakes? Also, if you beleive this creator does in fact exist as the revealed word says, then do you feel HE is worthy of your praise?

Edited August 27, 2011 by thenamelessone

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 27, 2011

Microsoft doesnt need your money so why do you have to pay anything for software?

LOL

That's a very weak attempt at trying to answer this question, but thank you for trying. Sure, Microsoft may not totally rely it now, but they sure as hell needed your money when they first started.

Also, I can use this analogy in comparison to yours: 'God doesn't need your prayers so why do you have to pray to gain access to his mercy?' exactly. That's what I'm asking. Back to square one.

thenamelessone · August 27, 2011

If you read again I did add on to my answer, this was only asking you to think, just because someone doesnt need something doesnt mean that it is not right for you to offer it for time and trouble spent on getting you a product. Its asking you to expand your mind somewhat.

**Muhammed Ali** · August 28, 2011

But.. If the child doesn't want this specific benefit and decides to disobey, is it Just for the parents to burn their child inside an inferno? Not only would this be unjust, but it wouldn't make sense to begin with because the parents would love their child way too much to do such an abhorrent act. What difference would it make to the parents? Yes, they would be upset but they wouldn't chastise their child eternally as they are way to merciful and loving to do such a thing. Instead, they would send their child for counselling or on some sort of disciplinary course. Even then, if the child doesn't want to listen and doesn't want the benefit, the child does not warrant eternal punishment as obeying or disobeying this benefit wouldn't really make a difference, because the parents would want it for the child but not NEED it. Hence the child can come back home and obey his parents on all matters except this specific benefit.
Please elaborate on your second point, please. Thanks.

Would I be correct in saying that you are not really questioning the wisdom of reasonable corrective punishment but you are questioning punishment that seems excessive?

I don't believe God made us exclusively for his worship, why would an all powerful being bother bringing us into life and going through all of lifes experiences with the express and exclusive purpose of only worshiping him, if he does not need worship? Seems like a pointless and contradictory action from a divine being. If our only purpose was to worship him, he would of been much better served by robots who constantly worship, not that he needs that anyway.

If someone asked you 'why did God create us?', how would you respond?

Any feedback? ^

I think your 'objections' are just a subset to the problem of evil. Why didn't God just put us all in paradise where we could easily worship him and see his signs at all times, instead of giving us this difficult life?

Brother would you be willing to discuss this over something like Skype?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Muhammed Ali

Enligthenment · August 28, 2011

Salaams Let me just try help you out here if i could.

First of all: Overall, i gather you have embarked on a journey of understanding the tasks of someone superior than yourself without knowing who He is.... It seems you have started questioning the effects of disobedience without first solving the point "why should i obey Him in the first place?".... So if you think/discuss more on these points i.e. Who is the one we are talking about? What are His attributes? What is the relationship between me and Him? Why is He (as they say) bossing me around? etc... i think the subsequent discussions as to "why one who doesn't pray must see hell?", will get resolved more easily... Briefly said: We must work well on the Fundamentals of Beliefs first, the rest will flow just naturally... And i don't mean accepting it because that's how it goes... I mean really putting your thought in it... Of course if one is after a solution and not just fun time or ....

.

Also another point I want to mention.
Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well).

Acceptance has many degrees. I think the least one gets satisfied with the apparently correct Salah taht most of us perform... Its the higher degrees that demand these conditions... So don't worry...One who created us knows us better than ourselves... He knows it will take us some time to get there...

Also another point I want to mention.
Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well). Not only this, but you're expected to do certain moves at the same time and reach asceticism and remember god. How is this even possible when you have to make sure your flexes and recitation are done properly?

Well it is very much possible and millions have done it before us... And many thousands have managed both responsibilities so perfectly that they reached those higher degrees of acceptance... It only feels this way at the beginning, but as you go on it becomes quite easy and then one is concentrating on higher vistas...

Also another point I want to mention.
Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well). Not only this, but you're expected to do certain moves at the same time and reach asceticism and remember god. How is this even possible when you have to make sure your flexes and recitation are done properly? This, in itself, is a distraction to reaching God.

There is no other way to reach God but through obeying Him in our acts, in all aspects of life... If we just perform these basics (performing the obligations and avoiding the forbiddens) we have moved a big step forward is reaching Him.... (There are many Ahadith in this respect i can qoute them if required).

Also another point I want to mention.
Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well). Not only this, but you're expected to do certain moves at the same time and reach asceticism and remember god. How is this even possible when you have to make sure your flexes and recitation are done properly? This, in itself, is a distraction to reaching God. Meditation seems more effective than this!

(I won't get into that right now... For now: Just ask yourself if it will help you after you leave this limited world?)

What's more, we're expected to pray 5 times a day, every single day, 365 days a year (without a weekend break mind you) and expected to remember God this way. Do you know how strenuous, time consuming, and tiresome this is? Our brains will die down and this prayer will become extremely mundane and pointless. Wait a second .. It's not only salaah, but the ritual ablutions that "must" be performed before we commence the prayer, even if we're already clean.

Again i would like to say that you need to work more on understanding the One who made these laws... You think it didn't flash upon the one who made your mind, that we will suffer these so called issues?

Also another point I want to mention.
Your Salaah would need "acceptance". It's extremely regiment. You need to pray at exactly the right time, your focus should be entirely on God and only a portion of your prayer or none of your prayer is accepted, based on your concentration (and not everyone can concentrate very well). Not only this, but you're expected to do certain moves at the same time and reach asceticism and remember god. How is this even possible when you have to make sure your flexes and recitation are done properly? This, in itself, is a distraction to reaching God. Meditation seems more effective than this!
What's more, we're expected to pray 5 times a day, every single day, 365 days a year (without a weekend break mind you) and expected to remember God this way. Do you know how strenuous, time consuming, and tiresome this is? Our brains will die down and this prayer will become extremely mundane and pointless. Wait a second .. It's not only salaah, but the ritual ablutions that "must" be performed before we commence the prayer, even if we're already clean.
All of this is extremely difficult, especially if you live in the west and youre working and have a family to support, it's almost impossible and burdening.

Ask those who enjoy their worship and obedience so much they won't exchange it for anything....And right in your neighborhood...

The fact is, and the point I'm trying to get at, is that we all have ups and downs in our moods and interests and our bodies are susceptible to lethargy, especially after a long hard day at work. There is a time and place for everything, especially worshipping God,

That's why He has ordered everyone to at the least perform just these obligations... HE knows us better.. Anyone who wants to go for more should schedule it himself... Frankly! Did you ever calculate how much time a Salah takes? Is it more than so many sports and diversions that are there.? Just drop a phone call and you'll have enough time for all your prayers...

he fact is, and the point I'm trying to get at, is that we all have ups and downs in our moods and interests and our bodies are susceptible to lethargy, especially after a long hard day at work. There is a time and place for everything, especially worshipping God, and one cannot be expected to remember God in a very unreasonable manner, every single day without fail. Doing this would only make one averse to the rules of God.

See these are the contradictory comments that i stress again and again why you must dig into who is it you call God and then think if you really can expect Him to be unreasonable? You really can say "no i won't do it, 'casue I think it was not properly thought out"?

The fact is, and the point I'm trying to get at, is that we all have ups and downs in our moods and interests and our bodies are susceptible to lethargy, especially after a long hard day at work. There is a time and place for everything, especially worshipping God, and one cannot be expected to remember God in a very unreasonable manner, every single day without fail. Doing this would only make one averse to the rules of God.
That's why there are definitely other ways of remembering God not just ritualistic Salaah. Some people are able to do Salaah and the Ablutions but not everyone. .

Then they must try to get themselves to the least that their GOD expects them to perform... IF you can't do something very valuable, and that every one can, so you simply must drop it, right?

The fact is, and the point I'm trying to get at, is that we all have ups and downs in our moods and interests and our bodies are susceptible to lethargy, especially after a long hard day at work. There is a time and place for everything, especially worshipping God, and one cannot be expected to remember God in a very unreasonable manner, every single day without fail. Doing this would only make one averse to the rules of God.
That's why there are definitely other ways of remembering God not just ritualistic Salaah. Some people are able to do Salaah and the Ablutions but not everyone. Like KingPomba said, you can remember god by simply strolling around nature and appreciating its beauty, which would lead to thanking god for his beneficience and grace. Rememebering certain holy personalities also makes you remember God, so the catalyst effect would be that your deeds Itself becomes a worship to God.

If we know who God is, we will wait for Him to tell what should we do to remember Him well; that would make our life and the Hereafter both so beautiful....

Sorry for taking up your time but i thought i must contribute. Even if it meant an early start at the desk...:-)

Edited August 28, 2011 by Enligthenment

**Basim Ali** · August 28, 2011

But.. If the child doesn't want this specific benefit and decides to disobey, is it Just for the parents to burn their child inside an inferno? Not only would this be unjust, but it wouldn't make sense to begin with because the parents would love their child way too much to do such an abhorrent act. What difference would it make to the parents? Yes, they would be upset but they wouldn't chastise their child eternally as they are way to merciful and loving to do such a thing. Instead, they would send their child for counselling or on some sort of disciplinary course. Even then, if the child doesn't want to listen and doesn't want the benefit, the child does not warrant eternal punishment as obeying or disobeying this benefit wouldn't really make a difference, because the parents would want it for the child but not NEED it. Hence the child can come back home and obey his parents on all matters except this specific benefit.
Please elaborate on your second point, please. Thanks.

So you're basically saying there should be Heaven and Hell in place and the if the kid obeys the parent, he gets rewarded and if he doesn't, it is said that he will get punished but because the parents love him they can not possibly punish him. So basically no child is to be punished but only emptily threatened with something that can not happen. See the problem now?

gogiison2 · August 28, 2011

If God is needless of anything, even our prayer, then why does he want us to pray? You might say that, yes, it doesn't benefit God but it benefits "us". Well ok, let's go with this...
What if I don't want this benefit? Why would I be punished for it? Its like me Telling someone to do a chore, but it doesn't affect or benefit me in the slightest bit. Though, I tell the person that if he doesn't do this chore then I will kill him. Wheres the logic in this?
Thanks.

The rich man doesn't necessarily need the poor man. If the poor man doesn't work and pay rent, he may lose his home and other possessions.

The sunlight doesn't need the plant. If the plant doesn't get sunlight, it will whither and die.

Naad e Ali · August 29, 2011

slam....

Allah Almighty definitely do not need our prayers.... our prayers neither can raise His status nor can decline...

but...

to pray is something else... it is to say thanks... to be grateful to Allah Almighty... HE has blessed us with countless blessings.... so do you think... HE do not deserves thanks??? how unfair it would be...

if we give something to a person... we definitly want some feed back... an appreciation... if that person don't say thanks... we wont like him anymore.. or it may happens... that we go for the same person twice or thrice.. but not more than that... never will we...

so if we are blessed with unlimited blessings by our Allah... and we are not thankful to HIM...and the best way to be thankful is to offer prayer..... HE will definitly punish those who do not bow before him... its HIS right.. and if we wont give this right... we will definitly be guilty... and guiltier are punished... its justice

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 30, 2011

slam....
Allah Almighty definitely do not need our prayers.... our prayers neither can raise His status nor can decline...
but...
to pray is something else... it is to say thanks... to be grateful to Allah Almighty... HE has blessed us with countless blessings.... so do you think... HE do not deserves thanks??? how unfair it would be...
if we give something to a person... we definitly want some feed back... an appreciation... if that person don't say thanks... we wont like him anymore.. or it may happens... that we go for the same person twice or thrice.. but not more than that... never will we...
so if we are blessed with unlimited blessings by our Allah... and we are not thankful to HIM...and the best way to be thankful is to offer prayer..... HE will definitly punish those who do not bow before him... its HIS right.. and if we wont give this right... we will definitly be guilty... and guiltier are punished... its justice

Thank you, sister.

This is the dilemma though. If God is Self-Sufficient, then why would He 'need' or 'want' thanks? God may deserve it, yes, but that doesn't automatically necessitate that he wants it. Hence, why would God punish us for something he never really needed, ever, even if his deserves it? Can you explain that?

We can thank God through different ways, when we feel like it, and if prayer is used to reach spirituality, then we can simply meditate and contemplate on life.

Kismet110 · August 30, 2011

Maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. People who genuinely gain marifa'at of Allah (SWT) and the Majesty of Him don't view prayer as a chore, rather they rush to it in eagerness and feel despondent when they miss/delay their sala'at.

The benefit is for us, the recognition that He is worthy of praying to avails us on the Day Of Reckoning.

Not falling on our knees in thankfulness to all the Creator has given us is ungrateful in the extreme, maybe the 'punishment' is for the ingratitude?

ALI

gogiison2 · August 30, 2011

Also, I think one would be getting punished for their arrogance of not praying. You're basically punishing yourself, in effect.

Edited August 30, 2011 by gogiison2

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 30, 2011

The last two posts have opened up my mind to a new thought that perhaps solves this problem...!

God doesn't need your prayer but He Commands it. He Commands it due to the numerous benefits it contains for his servant, allowing the servant to reach higher stations before the eyes of God so that He may see His servant as worthy enough of the unimaginable rewards stored for him in the hereafter.

The only problem left is that the 5 times a day Salaah can be extremely difficult to pray, considering the circumstances that one has to endure whilst living in the West.

**Muhammed Ali** · August 30, 2011

God doesn't need your prayer but He Commands it. He Commands it due to the numerous benefits it contains for his servant, allowing the servant to reach higher stations before the eyes of God so that He may see His servant as worthy enough of the unimaginable rewards stored for him in the hereafter.

Why does he have to see his servant as worthy before He gives them these rewards? Why not just reward them without these conditions if He is supposedly infinitely merciful?

The rich man doesn't necessarily need the poor man. If the poor man doesn't work and pay rent, he may lose his home and other possessions.
The sunlight doesn't need the plant. If the plant doesn't get sunlight, it will whither and die.

Is Allah not the most merciful and most powerful? Can He not bestow these blessings upon people without them having to chase after them?

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 30, 2011

Why does he have to see his servant as worthy before He gives them these rewards? Why not just reward them without these conditions if He is supposedly infinitely merciful?
Is Allah not the most merciful and most powerful? Can He not bestow these blessings upon people without them having to chase after them?

... What's your point? Or are you doubting, too?

gogiison2 · August 31, 2011

Why does he have to see his servant as worthy before He gives them these rewards? Why not just reward them without these conditions if He is supposedly infinitely merciful?
Is Allah not the most merciful and most powerful? Can He not bestow these blessings upon people without them having to chase after them?

He already blessed everyone. It's said that ar-rahman encompasses all, ar-raheem is for the select. We must understand that there are different levels of blessings. It's not just a one size fits all type deal.

Edited August 31, 2011 by gogiison2

**Muhammed Ali** · August 31, 2011

... What's your point? Or are you doubting, too?

No I am using the Socratic method because I find that not many people at all respond to my posts on theology. I could write lots on it but if the response isn't there then it's quite off-putting.

He already blessed everyone. It's said that ar-rahman encompasses all, ar-raheem is for the select. We must understand that there are different levels of blessings. It's not just a one size fits all type deal.

Why can't he just give his utmost to all of us? Us theists keep saying he is omnibenevolent so why can't he be exactly that?

Edited August 31, 2011 by Muhammed Ali

MysticKnight · August 31, 2011

Why can't he just give his utmost to all of us? Us theists keep saying he is omnibenevolent so why can't he be exactly that?

Well I think morality can't be given, it's to be developed and grown by the free-will of the person. However I think outside of that, it's very likely God will give without measure all that a human wants and will forgive everyone. If God is absolute Compassionate, Merciful, Forgiving, then it means that. To have that over-shadowed by a Wrathful nature that doesn't except anything short of "not desire this world + obeying God + not being misguided + not disobeying God" to receive his grace and mercy , all else being severely torment, is not at all the God decribed by the words "Most Merciful" "Most Compassionate' "The most forbearing' "the most forgiving". Not loving disbelievers, proud, and transgressors, is not the thought of a loving God most people have. That is why so much Muslims squirm to explain "does not love the disbeleivers" with reminding that God's mercy encompass all things, while we know that mercy will be overshadowed by blinding their hearts, deafening their ears, and punishing them with severe fire and torment for eternity.

If some humans can wish good for all humans, then it would make them more merciful to humans then God.

Really, is the Quran describing the true God or semi wrathful monster semi merciful God, with the merciful side being narrowed to apply to such a few with such narrow criteria.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

**Muhammed Ali** · August 31, 2011

Well I think morality can't be given, it's to be developed and grown by the free-will of the person.

Only morality? and why can't morality be given? Isn't goodness supposed to be from God? Isn't it He who guides us and puts the inclination to do good into our hearts?

However I think outside of that, it's very likely God will give without measure all that a human wants and will forgive everyone.

Will he even forgive Hajaj ibn Yusuf? What if I never want him to be forgiven?

Edited August 31, 2011 by Muhammed Ali

14infallibles · August 31, 2011

No I am using the Socratic method because I find that not many people at all respond to my posts on theology. I could write lots on it but if the response isn't there then it's quite off-putting.

(salam)

Brother please answer the questions you posted and if you have time a brief talk on the subject as I am very interested

Or can you please direct me to where I can learn more? Thank you

Eid Mubarak, Wassalam

MysticKnight · August 31, 2011

]Only morality? and why can't morality be given? Isn't goodness supposed to be from God? Isn't it He who guides us and puts the inclination to do good into our hearts

I think he put natural inclination to do good, but what I mean is not that any goodness/morality can't be given from God, is just that it has to grow per free-will, so not any level of morality simply can be given, because it has to grow out of free-will. I guess I was ambiguous.

Will he even forgive Hajaj ibn Yusuf? What if I never want him to be forgiven?

Why not forgive him..if he repented and was guided, you would forgive his crimes and believe God would...the only diffirence I see in time, all will be guided and regret their evil actions...you say God would forgive him if he repented here and was guided...I feel God will accept regret and repentance even after and will guide people...so no one will stay evil...

as for not wanting him to be forgiven, after your enlightened, you would want him to be forgiven..I think part of the test of evil is if we can learn to forgive and love each other despite all the injustice we might do to each other

I know Quran says not to love those whom were fighting Muslims, and said those whom did so are astray, but I feel this is wrong...

You know when I watched Star-Wars, even when Aticun became evil, I felt love for him the past. Just think about this way, we were all babies, innocent people, and grew up, if you watched anyone life, and saw them turn from good to evil, you will feel similarly how you felt for aticun.

Everyone was once a child. You look at a child and do you think he should go to heaven and be happy or do you think he needs to be tested for that with such hard criteria, that barely anyone passes?

We are so use to cursing and hating, that we think it's out of love, because this is what we are taught. We hate out of love. But I honestly don't think so anymore.

The ultimate test in life maybe is if we can forgive, without being told we have to. Perhaps God is silent because he wants us to come to this decision on our own without it being dictated to us and it's the ultimate thing we can do in life. Love all, no matter what.

Edited August 31, 2011 by MysticKnight

MysticKnight · August 31, 2011

The problem with Islam concept of God is that it has opposing attributes that go into contradiction of each other.

Forbearing vs Wrathful

Merciful vs Severe in punishment

Loving vs Hating

God is Ultimate Love but his hate on some people on the day of judgment will be more then the hate they have for themselves. When you have hate there is lack of love.

He loves, but not everyone. The question is then whom will he love and whom will he hate?

God forbears, but is also wrathful. What degree do you forbear, and what degree are you wrathful towards? Opposing forces.

You have to give precedence of one force then the other. That means one of them is not the Ultimate of it, it's preceded. Forbearing, but not so much, this and that causes wrath..

He is Merciful but all such and such will earn you severe torment. Mercy contradicts.

We all cling to Forbearing, Merciful, Loving, but that is so overshadowed by Wrarthful , Severe in punishment, and hating...

Only a few are favored, few will be saved..

The nice image created by the word Merciful, Compassionate, Loving, Forbearing, are really overshadowed by their opposites.

The opposite is a like a monster, compared to the benevolent side we stick to.

If we ever want to question the monster side, it comes down to "what about so and so, how he can be forgiven and not punished"..and because we don't want him forgiven and can't forgive him ourselves...we then say God must punish him out of justice....

In other words we justify the opposite side of love, forbearance, mercy, because we can't let go of the opposite.

We think the opposite is in the divine, while this would mean there is contradictory attributes in God, and none can be the utmost degree together.

But God is the Ultimate in what he is. And Loving, Merciful, Forgiving, these are the things to excel in, not in Anger, hate, vengefulness, being severe in punishment...

God is all-forbearing so that is what is whole essence is, he should ultimate in that, with nothing opposing it. If he get's angry, then means he is not forbearing to the full degree. If he excless in wrath, then he doesn't excel in forbearance. If he excels in forbearance, he doesn't excel in wrath.

These things are opposing forces...

This is why we are all so confused.

God is most merciful, why does he punish us for this and that... It makes no sense.. it's a contradiction.

Çåá ÇáÈíÊ · August 31, 2011

The problem with Islam concept of God is that it has opposing attributes that go into contradiction of each other.
Forbearing vs Wrathful
Merciful vs Severe in punishment
Loving vs Hating
God is Ultimate Love but his hate on some people on the day of judgment will be more then the hate they have for themselves. When you have hate there is lack of love.
He loves, but not everyone. The question is then whom will he love and whom will he hate?
God forbears, but is also wrathful. What degree do you forbear, and what degree are you wrathful towards? Opposing forces.
You have to give precedence of one force then the other. That means one of them is not the Ultimate of it, it's preceded. Forbearing, but not so much, this and that causes wrath..
He is Merciful but all such and such will earn you severe torment. Mercy contradicts.
We all cling to Forbearing, Merciful, Loving, but that is so overshadowed by Wrarthful , Severe in punishment, and hating...
Only a few are favored, few will be saved..
The nice image created by the word Merciful, Compassionate, Loving, Forbearing, are really overshadowed by their opposites.
The opposite is a like a monster, compared to the benevolent side we stick to.
If we ever want to question the monster side, it comes down to "what about so and so, how he can be forgiven and not punished"..and because we don't want him forgiven and can't forgive him ourselves...we then say God must punish him out of justice....
In other words we justify the opposite side of love, forbearance, mercy, because we can't let go of the opposite.
We think the opposite is in the divine, while this would mean there is contradictory attributes in God, and none can be the utmost degree together.
But God is the Ultimate in what he is. And Loving, Merciful, Forgiving, these are the things to excel in, not in Anger, hate, vengefulness, being severe in punishment...
God is all-forbearing so that is what is whole essence is, he should ultimate in that, with nothing opposing it. If he get's angry, then means he is not forbearing to the full degree. If he excless in wrath, then he doesn't excel in forbearance. If he excels in forbearance, he doesn't excel in wrath.
These things are opposing forces...
This is why we are all so confused.
God is most merciful, why does he punish us for this and that... It makes no sense.. it's a contradiction.

Salam all, one of the 99 Names of Allah is ÇáÖÇÑ which means 'The harmer' (i.e. The One Who causes harm), now my question is, how do we understand this Name of Allah in light of the fact that it is blasphemous to believe Allah is the cause of any evils and that it is His creation which causes evil?

Allah (swt) is ÇáÖÇÑ 'the harmer' but He is also "Adl" which means Just!

His Justice and His Harm are not antithetical to each other!

He destroyed the People of Prophet Lut and so He is ÇáÖÇÑ ..... but for what reason did He "Harm" them for? well this is where his "justice" comes in ... "Harm" is one of the means of spreading justice and removing corruption ... it is an arbitrator for Justice .

People of Prophet Lut were annihilated because of their acts of sodomy and raping boys , a vile crime that had never been done before them and so Allah "destroyed" them to take away this corruption and make it a warning and sign for future generations ...

Also..

Just like how God mercy cannot be witnessed without His wrath, so also we cannot witness His help if He also does not harm us. This is because the moment His Help (which is nondelimited) is delimited for our sake, it will necessarily be a harm for us as well. God creates by destroying and He destroys by creating. We are told however that some names precede other names. For example, God mercy is said to precede His wrath. And this is because wrath doesn't exist in itself--Wrath is only witnessed accidentally through God's delimitation of Mercy.

d'you get it now?

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