Who Were The Son-in-laws Of Imam Ali (a.s)?

[Kaneez Fatima]

Asalam Alaikum,

this is one of the questions asked about shia beliefs that if Imam Ali (a.s) refused to do bay'at at Umar's hand then why had he accepted him as his son-in-law?? In my knowledge Mola Ali's (a.s) both daughters were His nephews's wives. Give me references from ahle sunnat books so that i could answer my sunni friend. thank u

[UIE]

That is a misconception the Ummal Khulthum that Umar Ibn Khattab married was different then the daughter of Imam Ali matter of Fact Both Zainab (SA) and Umm Al KulThum (SA) were married to the sons of Imam Ali (AS)'s brother Jafar At Tayyar.

[hasani]

There were other wives or wife of umar who had name umme kulsoom. what makes people think one of them was daughter of imam ali(As)?

[Kaneez Fatima]

Yes but where can i find references? can someone guide me?

[hasani]

, watch this.

[aladdin]

Both Khulthum and Umar are very common names. It is like Tom, Richard and Harry. Even Umar Ibn Khattab, which means Umar son of Carpenter is very common too, as Umar name being common. People were named after their trade.

Someone will say to the other, did you hear Umar did so and so. The other will reply you mean Umar son of Milkman. And, the first one will say, no I mean Umar son of Carpenter, whose father shop is at blah, blah place.

Now the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat Mr. Nader Zaveri will swear it was the daughter of Imam Ali (as), married to the second caliphahaha of Islam. You have to be careful of wolves in clothes of sheep.

[Maula Dha Mallang]

it is *impossible* that janabe umme kulthum (sa) married umar. since the umme kulthum in sunni sources who apparanetly was the daughter of ali (as) who married umar...died less than a year later during childbirth.

all accounts state that umme kulthum bint ali (as) was present at kerbala, decades later.

how does a woman whi has been dead for decades show up at kerbala?

[Haydar Husayn]

There were other wives or wife of umar who had name umme kulsoom. what makes people think one of them was daughter of imam ali(As)?

Maybe the fact that there are narrations from the Imams (as) in Shia books that speak about this marriage.

it is *impossible* that janabe umme kulthum (sa) married umar. since the umme kulthum in sunni sources who apparanetly was the daughter of ali (as) who married umar...died less than a year later during childbirth.

all accounts state that umme kulthum bint ali (as) was present at kerbala, decades later.

how does a woman whi has been dead for decades show up at kerbala?

Ok, then we should just stick to Shia sources. Why bring Sunni sources into it?

[SD2]

I hope im not intruding but I have seen an answer to this before on a youtube video, I will try to find it now and I will post it if I do.

I found it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNyU-2Uc5O0&feature=related

Edited September 30, 2011 by WhySoSerious?

[Haydar Husayn]

There is no point refuting something if you don't even address the best evidence for it. In this case, the narrations with strong chains that are found in Shia books.

From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197

2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

3. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

From `Abd Allaah bin Sinaan and Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): He said: I asked about the women whose husband dies, can she do her `iddah in her house or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “It is wherever she wants, that `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 199

2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq Kal-SaHeeH (Reliable like a SaHeeH (hadeeth))

à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

From Al-QadaaH from Ja`far (Al-Saadiq) (عليه السلام) from his father (عليه السلام) He said: “Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام), and her son Zayd bin `Umar bin Al-KhaTTaab died at the same time. They did not know who passed away before, so they did not inherit from one another, and they prayed (the funeral prayer) upon them together”

Source:

1. Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 9, ch. 36, pg. 362, hadeeth # 15

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Majhool (Unknown)

à Milaadh Al-Akhyaar, vol. 15, pg. 382

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/umars-marriage-to-umm-kulthum.html

[aladdin]

^^^^^ Thank you for quoting from your mentor site, the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

In each hadith it only says, Umar which is a very, very common name as previously mentioned. One of the hadith has Umar in brackets, meaning his name is not mentioned in the hadith.

Then, there is a Majhool (Unknown) hadith which you quoted in red color to highlight, which first time mentions Umar son of Carpenter.

1. Hadith is Majhool (Unknown).

2. Again, Umar son of Carpenter is very common name too.

Keep up the good work, just like your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

[Haydar Husayn]

^^^^^ Thank you for quoting from your mentor site, the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

In each hadith it only says, Umar which is a very, very common name as previously mentioned. One of the hadith has Umar in brackets, meaning his name is not mentioned in the hadith.

Then, there is a Majhool (Unknown) hadith which you quoted in red color to highlight, which first time mentions Umar son of Carpenter.

1. Hadith is Majhool (Unknown).

2. Again, Umar son of Carpenter is very common name too.

Keep up the good work, just like your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

Yeah, I'm sure this Umar was just some random guy that he could issue threats to Imam Ali (as). And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Umm Kulthum married a person called Umar, and Umar married a person called Umm Kulthum. Get real.

Anyway, according to the same link, Shaykh Toosi, Sayyid Murtadha, Sayyid Khoei, and Sayyid Fadlallah all say the narrations indicate such a marriage took place.

[aladdin]

^^^^^ Yes, a Khabeth Wahhabi will believe that Umar can threatens Imam Ali (as):

"I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!”

And, look at the threat, that he Umar will accuse Imam Ali of theft by bring two false witnesses against Imam Ali.

At the same time the Khabeth Wahhabi still believes that Umar is better than Imam Ali.

Keep up the good work, you and your mentor the Online Marja, the Alim of ShiaChat.

And, you believe in your Master Imam Ali (as) that he will cave into this kind of blackmail.

Edited September 30, 2011 by aladdin

[Haydar Husayn]

Who said anything about Umar being better than Imam Ali (as)? I think you need to take some pills for your paranoia. There are no Wahhabis posting in this thread, and neither is Nader a Wahhabi. Have some fear of Allah, and stop basically making takfir on fellow Shias.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[aladdin]

Who said anything about Umar being better than Imam Ali (as)? I think you need to take some pills for your paranoia. There are no Wahhabis posting in this thread, and neither is Nader a Wahhabi. Have some fear of Allah, and stop basically making takfir on fellow Shias.

Same arguments, just to be argumentative as usual. Cannot come back with some kind of good rebuttal, then it is better to keep quite and keep your peace.

You think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

[Haydar Husayn]

I think you are the one providing no arguments. All you do is call people Wahhabis. The ahadith are there for everyone to see, and I think most sensible people will realise which Umar is being spoken about.

[aladdin]

Allah has given us brain and intelligence and asked us to use our brain and intelligence.

[Haydar Husayn]

You can't reject historical facts or authentic ahadith based on your dislike of them. You are going to have to come up with a really good, objective, reason why these narrations should be rejected.

[aladdin]

You can't reject historical facts or authentic ahadith based on your dislike of them. You are going to have to come up with a really good, objective, reason why these narrations should be rejected.

I came up with my aql. How low can you think of your Imam?

Answer the following tow questions based on your aql:

1. Do you think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

2. What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

Now answer the above based on your aql and without hiding behind narrations.

[Haydar Husayn]

You think that Umar can threaten Imam Ali of theft, and your Master Imam Ali (as) will cave into this blackmail and marry his daughter to Umar?

What kind of Imam is that who gives into blackmail?

Didn't Umar already threaten Imam Ali (as) when he wanted him to give bayah to Abu Bakr? Wasn't he already responsible for the death of Bibi Fatima (as) and her unborn child? Why not ask what kind of Imam would allow that to happen, or would leave those deaths unavenged?

The reason for not preventing this marriage was the same as why Imam Ali (as) didn't react to what happened after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This was simply one more tragedy that happened to the Ahlul Bayt (as) after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). But considering it is not by any means the worst of the tragedies, I don't know why this one is so hard to accept.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[aladdin]

Didn't Umar already threaten Imam Ali (as) when he wanted him to give bayah to Abu Bakr? Wasn't he already responsible for the death of Bibi Fatima (as) and her unborn child? Why not ask what kind of Imam would allow that to happen, or would leave those deaths unavenged?

Again you are not using your aql. The above two tragedies already happened without Imam's contribution to them. Thus, he couldn't change the history. In both the case if he subsequently takes any action, he divides the Ummah.

The reason for not preventing this marriage was the same as why Imam Ali (as) didn't react to what happened after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This was simply one more tragedy that happened to the Ahlul Bayt (as) after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). But considering it is not by any means the worst of the tragedies, I don't know why this one is so hard to accept.

The above has not happened. It is in the future. Thus, the Imam would not give into blackmail.

Tomorrow, then Umar will blackmail him to write a new Quran, and Imam will cave into his threat.

Use aql, rather than arguments.

[Haydar Husayn]

Again you are not using your aql. The above two tragedies already happened without Imam's contribution to them. Thus, he couldn't change the history. In both the case if he subsequently takes any action, he divides the Ummah.

And if Imam Ali (as) tries to prevent this marriage, then Umar would move against him, forcing a conflict that would divide the Ummah. Was it worth dividing the Ummah over a marriage, but not the death of the daughter and grandson of the Prophet (pbuh), or the issue of Imam Ali (as)'s right to the leadership of the Ummah?

[aladdin]

And if Imam Ali (as) tries to prevent this marriage, then Umar would move against him, forcing a conflict that would divide the Ummah. Was it worth dividing the Ummah over a marriage, but not the death of the daughter and grandson of the Prophet (pbuh), or the issue of Imam Ali (as)'s right to the leadership of the Ummah?

Imam will never cave into blackmail. Today, this blackmail, tomorrow another one, and day after another one. Then there is no end to it. Use aql and not arguments.

Do you know the definition of blackmail?

[MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT]

First off is this marriage allwoed? After all Prophet was grand father of Bibi Umme Kulsoom and Omar was father in law of the prophet.

Why would Omar propose to the younges daughter and not the older one? WAs she already married? If so there was not much of age difference between the two daughters why is it that one got married where as the other one wasnt?

Bibi Fatima, Prophets daughter curses them and Imam Ali marries bibi Fatima's daughter to the same accursed lanti. Makes perfect sense.

[aladdin]

^^^^ They don't use aql, and use literal. Allah has two physical literal hands, rather than Allah's two hands are open as He is the Most Generous.

[Ali_Hussain]

When we have multiple hadith telling us one thing, against 'aql' which one are we to believe? The sayings of Imams, or our own desires?

Why did the early shi'a invent this, then put it in our books?

I don't know why people are so quick to reject this, it really makes umer look bad and shows his true self.

Aladdin, why don't you write a nice letter in your most eloquent arabic, send it to najaf and inform them that ayatullah al udhma al-khu'i wasted his life with this rijal non sense, he could have saved himslef alot of time by just following the 'aladdin method of hadith authentication' and used his aql

[Haydar Husayn]

First off is this marriage allwoed? After all Prophet was grand father of Bibi Umme Kulsoom and Omar was father in law of the prophet.

I see this argument a lot, but nobody actually ever shows that such a marriage isn't allowed. So bring forward your proof.

Why would Omar propose to the younges daughter and not the older one? WAs she already married? If so there was not much of age difference between the two daughters why is it that one got married where as the other one wasnt?

Maybe Bibi Zaynab was already married, or maybe Umar preferred Umm Kulthum. t doesn't make any difference.

Bibi Fatima, Prophets daughter curses them and Imam Ali marries bibi Fatima's daughter to the same accursed lanti. Makes perfect sense.

Read the ahadith. Imam Ali (as) didn't want to marry Umm Kulthum to Umar but for forced to allow it, and he left the matter up to Abbas in the end rather than explicitly agreeing to it.

Anyway, we don't need to understand why some things happened in order to accept them. The idea that all these narrations in both Sunni and Shia books were fabricated seems a bit hard to accept, and to reject them opens the door for people to reject almost anything so long as they don't understand it.

^^^^ They don't use aql, and use literal. Allah has two physical literal hands, rather than Allah's two hands are open as He is the Most Generous.

There is a difference between not taking something literally and rejecting it.

If you are going to use your aql to reject this marriage, then someone else can use it to reject the incident of the door based on the same type of logic: Imam Ali (as) would never have allowed such a thing.

[aladdin]

When we have multiple hadith telling us one thing, against 'aql' which one are we to believe? The sayings of Imams, or our own desires?

Why did the early shi'a invent this, then put it in our books?

I don't know why people are so quick to reject this, it really makes umer look bad and shows his true self.

Aladdin, why don't you write a nice letter in your most eloquent arabic, send it to najaf and inform them that ayatullah al udhma al-khu'i wasted his life with this rijal non sense, he could have saved himslef alot of time by just following the 'aladdin method of hadith authentication' and used his aql

Show me one hadith that say that the husband was Omar bin Khatab the second caliph?

Don't show me a hadith or bunch of hadiths, which says Omar, as Omar is a very, very common name.

Not even Omar bin Khatab, which again is a very common name. Which means Omar son of Carpenter, and this lone hadith, which mentions Omar son of Carpenter is a Majhool (Unknown) hadith, so it doesn't even count.

And, there is the hadith of blackmail where no Omar is mentioned. Even Omar bin Khatab is not mentioned. Omar name is inserted into the brackets many a times, which means the translator inserted the name of Omar in brackets while translating, and the original Arabic hadith didn't mention Omar at all.

Where is your eman in your Imam, your Prophet and your Allah.

When they decided to make abu Bakr the caliph, and our Master Imam Ali (as) found out, what can he do without unsheathing his sword.

When they killed the Batool Bibi Fatima (as), our Master Imam Ali (as) didn't know. When he found out, what can he do without unsheathing his sword.

Now blackmail is another thing. Image some very powerful person came to your father and told him that your father should marry your sister to him. And, if your father refuses, then he will bring two witnesses who will testify that your father is a thief and that he will fry your father.

You think that your father will give in to this blackmail and marry your sister to that person?

If your father did, then your father will show his weakness.

Now, what will stop that person to not to blackmail your father again. He has already seen your father's weakness and already extorted from him something he wanted by threats.

Can you be sure that person will not blackmail your father again?

Now, this person will come and ask your father to divorce your mother, so that he can marry her.

You think that you father will give in to this blackmail?

You think that you will give in to this kind of blackmail?

If you don't think that you and your father will not give in to this kind of blackmail, then how you expect your your Master the Imam, the Lion of Allah to do so?

Let us assume that you and your father are weaklings, and you both being weaklings will give in to this kind of blackmail, do you think your Master the Imam, the Lion of Allah will give in to this kind of blackmail?

Where is your eman in your Master, the Lion of Allah, the Prophet and Allah.

BTW, I have never claimed that I am a Alim in anything, and that includes being Alim in both the languages of Arabic and English.

But I know I am not a weakling, like my Master Imam Ali (as), the Lion of Allah.

Please don't call my Master Imam Ali (as), the Lion of Allah a weakling who gives in to blackmail, as this boils my blood.

Edited October 1, 2011 by aladdin

[aladdin]

When we have multiple hadith telling us one thing, against 'aql' which one are we to believe?

Yea Right.

Salam brother,

Don't hold your breath for an answer, Nader Zaveri is no where to be found when it comes to helping the Shia.

Yeah he does not, neither does Jondab Azdi. There are a few other people like them, but since they are quiet for the time being I will not name them.

Nader, he is such an obvious. Remember when he was trying to prove that scholars give reasons when they weaken someone in Rijjal, but dear mac and botta contradicted him. He also shamelessly advocated for doing away with the Quranic requirement of witnesses for the sake of upholding the credibility of Rijjal system. He disappeared altogether from that thread when confronted. He and his disappearing acts, and then he has the face to enter other threads as if nothing has happened.

Someone should tell him that he is wasting his time here. The shias who remain silent on this forum know exactly for what he actually is.

By the way only a Wahhabi will put Quran and logic on a back burner to uphold Rijjal, becasue he knows his religion will die otherwise. Like my friend Botta, he will not listen to any logical incoherency in man made laws (If these could be called laws at all, in fact scholars could say whatever they felt like on a day) upon which Rijjal is based. He will quietly follow those faulty Rijjal principals, when in his practical life he would never do the same as a basis of common sense.

Yea Right, Imam Ali (as) gives in to blackmail.

Rijjal, Rijal, Rijjal, Rijjal, Rijal, Rijjal,Rijal ......

Rajul, Rajul, Rajul, Rajul ...........

[Kaneez Fatima]

i've found this check this out!

http://wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=351:did-imam-ali-as-love-the-three-caliphs&catid=84:04-Imam-Ali-(as)

[aladdin]

^^^^^ From the site:

Besides this fact, Umm Kulthum bint Ali (as) was a Sayyidah. Even in Sunni fiqh, a Sayyidah cannot legally marry but a Sayyid. Hanafi scholar Mufti Ghulam Rasul expands on this matter further, relying on the fatwas of classical Sunni Ulema in his book Hasab aur Nasab Volume 2 pages 188-190:

[Guest Mushu]

From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

Hishaam bin Saalim from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) he said: “When he (`Umar) address (proposed) to him (`Alee). Ameer Al-Mu’mineen (عليه السلام) said to him “She is a child”. He said: So he (`Umar) met Al-`Abbaas and he said to him: “What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?” He (Abbaas) said: “And what is the matter?” He (Umar) said: “I addressed (proposed) before your brother's son (nephew), and he denied me. I swear by Allaah, I will fill the zamzam, leave no honor for you without being destroyed. I will bring two witnesses upon him and (prove) he (is guilty) of theft, and I will cut his right (hand)!” Then Al-`Abbaas went to him (Imaam `Alee) and gave him the news (of what happened). And he (Abbaas) asked him (`Alee) to put the matter to him (Abbaas). And he (`Alee) agreed.”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 2

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42

2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

Yeah, I'm sure this Umar was just some random guy that he could issue threats to Imam Ali (as). And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Umm Kulthum married a person called Umar, and Umar married a person called Umm Kulthum. Get real.

Anyway, according to the same link, Shaykh Toosi, Sayyid Murtadha, Sayyid Khoei, and Sayyid Fadlallah all say the narrations indicate such a marriage took place.

This is what happens when these books get into the wrong hands.

Nader is not knowledgable enough to analyse ahadith and grade them on his own.

This is what Syed Al-Khoei was talking about when he said that these books should stay in hawzah, and not be in the public arena :no:

However, forget Nader, if you can show me proof that a reputable scholar (any of the ones you mentioned would be great) i'll accept the hadith is true.

Tbh, I can't see Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) being forced into giving his daughter to Omar.

[S.hassan]

This is what happens when these books get into the wrong hands.

Nader is not knowledgable enough to analyse ahadith and grade them on his own.

This is what Syed Al-Khoei was talking about when he said that these books should stay in hawzah, and not be in the public arena :no:

However, forget Nader, if you can show me proof that a reputable scholar (any of the ones you mentioned would be great) i'll accept the hadith is true.

Tbh, I can't see Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) being forced into giving his daughter to Omar.

Syed al Khoei believed in it if you're wondering....

[Guest Mushu]

Syed al Khoei believed in it if you're wondering....

Loooool wallah I was waiting for you to reply :lol:

Yeahhh perhaps, I wondered if someone could show me some sort of proof?

[Haydar Husayn]

This is what happens when these books get into the wrong hands.

Nader is not knowledgable enough to analyse ahadith and grade them on his own.

This is what Syed Al-Khoei was talking about when he said that these books should stay in hawzah, and not be in the public arena :no:

Where do you see Nader giving his own grading? He is quoting the gradings given by other scholars.

However, forget Nader, if you can show me proof that a reputable scholar (any of the ones you mentioned would be great) i'll accept the hadith is true.

Why don't you just click on the link http://www.revivinga...mm-kulthum.html, and look near the bottom of the article?

Tbh, I can't see Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) being forced into giving his daughter to Omar.

Well, what you can 'see' Imam Ali (as) doing is pretty subjective. Many Sunnis try to use that kind of argument against the incident of the door. They say "can you really see Imam Ali (as) not doing anything while that happened to his wife?". Personally, I don't believe in rejecting historical events based on subjective reasoning unless there is some conflict in the narrations. If we had a hadith from the Imams (as) saying this marriage never took place, then there would be something to discuss. But when both Shia and Sunni books are saying the marriage took place, and we have ahadith from the Imams explaining how it happened, then on what basis are we to reject it? Because we don't like the sound of it (just like Aisha's age for example)? Then anybody can reject anything he wants just because he doesn't like the sound of it.

By the way, this is not some merit of Umar that he married Umm Kulthum. It's just one more reason to curse him.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Haider Husayn