Co Wife Question

[Praetorius]

These risks you two are speaking of are necessary risks to live every day life. However bringing in a new sexual partner is not necessary to live every day life.

Strawman argument at best. On the very same basis I can say that the first marriage is a risk in itself. Who can say for sure that the first wife is not carrying any STD's? Why not just spend your life in solitude without any partner?

Let's dissect your argument from yet another perspective. Are they really necessary? Hell if they are, I mean come on, you can buy a horse, a bike, or you could even just use your God-given feet... Why use a car, why take the risk? I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

Why is it so unacceptable for you ladies that a man would want a second wife? Do you speak for all women when you say they shouldn't marry men in a polygamous relationship out of concern of contracting STD's? Do you speak for my two distant relatives who have 2 and 3 wives respectively, and have perfectly healthy lives (in fact, I'd say they have better lives than most single marriages I know)?

[Ruq]

Its funny how in order to justify cheating (and sex behind your partners back is ALWAYS cheating by the definition of what a cheat is) people who cheat have suddenly become people who are incredibly responsible with their reproductive health, we know of course, this is not true. The STD issue is a real one, but i dont think as important as the principle of lying and decpetion that is being propogated in some of these threads. This is much more damaging to families/societies, once trust is lost in a relationship it is notoriously hard to get it back and invariably relationships that have lost trust end.

If a muslim wants a polygamous relationship (or 'open' relationship if youre non-muslim) then there is no reason for honesty to be compromised. But there are people on this board who try and make pedantic points about differences between 'lying' and 'dishonesty', which in real terms dont actually exist unless youre a politician trying to save his/her neck and not an honourable person trying to create the best circumstances for their family.

[ImAli]

Strawman argument at best. On the very same basis I can say that the first marriage is a risk in itself. Who can say for sure that the first wife is not carrying any STD's? Why not just spend your life in solitude without any partner?

Let's dissect your argument from yet another perspective. Are they really necessary? Hell if they are, I mean come on, you can buy a horse, a bike, or you could even just use your God-given feet... Why use a car, why take the risk? I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

Why is it so unacceptable for you ladies that a man would want a second wife? Do you speak for all women when you say they shouldn't marry men in a polygamous relationship out of concern of contracting STD's? Do you speak for my two distant relatives who have 2 and 3 wives respectively, and have perfectly healthy lives (in fact, I'd say they have better lives than most single marriages I know)?

I am not speaking for anyone...I am speaking for myself and giving one of my reasons WHY I don't want to be involved in this. You have all given your reasons why you might desire such a situation for yourself and good for you...I hope it works out for the best and everyone is happy. The point is leaving the house is a necessary risk to live every day life. If you want to walk, drive, or ride a horse that is your choice....but it is necessary because you have to go out to work and buy necessities....unless you are independently wealthy. Adding a new sexual partner to the equation is not necessary to live every day life. A monogamous marriage is not a risk as long as it remains a monogamous marriage, especially when there is testing before the marriage such as was my case. In my case I hadn't been with a man before and I was still tested and received a full physical from a GYN and my husband also received blood tests and a full physical...we are both clean and remain that way. As for your relatives, good for them....I am thrilled to death they are happy and it is working for them and I am happy for whoever else it is working for. However, for countless reasons this is not for me and I am not ashamed to admit it.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ImAli

[kadhim]

If a muslim wants a polygamous relationship (or 'open' relationship if youre non-muslim) then there is no reason for honesty to be compromised.

Cool. In exchange I expect women to immediately cease all irrational jealousies and insecurities and overall bad attitudes about muta'a and the idea of their husbands with another woman.

Easy peasy Japaneesie.

[ImAli]

Cool. In exchange I expect women to immediately cease all irrational jealousies and insecurities and overall bad attitudes about muta'a and the idea of their husbands with another woman.

Easy peasy Japaneesie.

No one has spoken for you as to what you want in a relationship and what YOU should do.....so please don't demand on what other people should expect from a relationship as it is not your business.

[Haydar Husayn]

Its funny how in order to justify cheating (and sex behind your partners back is ALWAYS cheating by the definition of what a cheat is) people who cheat have suddenly become people who are incredibly responsible with their reproductive health, we know of course, this is not true. The STD issue is a real one, but i dont think as important as the principle of lying and decpetion that is being propogated in some of these threads. This is much more damaging to families/societies, once trust is lost in a relationship it is notoriously hard to get it back and invariably relationships that have lost trust end.

Cheating implies breaking rules. In Islam, the 'rules' are different than in monogamous marriages. You are trying to impose the rules of one type of marriage onto the other.

I don't know where you get the 'incredibly responsible' bit from. Wearing a condom is normal, and doesn't require any extraordinary measures. I would guess that in this day and age, most people in the West who don't use precautions do so due to having had alcohol, which isn't an issue for Muslims. Either that, or they are just incredibly stupid

If a muslim wants a polygamous relationship (or 'open' relationship if youre non-muslim) then there is no reason for honesty to be compromised. But there are people on this board who try and make pedantic points about differences between 'lying' and 'dishonesty', which in real terms dont actually exist unless youre a politician trying to save his/her neck and not an honourable person trying to create the best circumstances for their family.

Ok, how about Muslim women make more efforts to control their jealousy, and then the men won't have a problem telling them in the event they have a muta with someone else?

In the meantime, men have no need to inform their wife everytime they make use of one of their rights.

[kadhim]

No one has spoken for you as to what you want in a relationship and what YOU should do.....so please don't demand on what other people should expect from a relationship as it is not your business.

Focus. It isn't about me. The question is one of context. Why would a Muslim man feel the need to hide a religiously permissible act from a nominally Muslim wife? Answer: women with un-Islamic attitudes that want to haramify the halal.

[Ruq]

Cheating implies breaking rules. In Islam, the 'rules' are different than in monogamous marriages. You are trying to impose the rules of one type of marriage onto the other.

I don't know where you get the 'incredibly responsible' bit from. Wearing a condom is normal, and doesn't require any extraordinary measures. I would guess that in this day and age, most people in the West who don't use precautions do so due to having had alcohol, which isn't an issue for Muslims. Either that, or they are just incredibly stupid

Ok, how about Muslim women make more efforts to control their jealousy, and then the men won't have a problem telling them in the event they have a muta with someone else?

In the meantime, men have no need to inform their wife everytime they make use of one of their rights.

You may check the definition of 'cheat' and you will find that it complies with the situation in discussion. Alcohol can be a factor, but immaturity/naivity and downright irrisponsibility and arrogance is also.

If people enter into a relationship with the understanding that both parties are open to plurality in theory there shouldnt be a problem. Either way there is no justification for betrayal, if a person initially agrees to plurality but in practice finds it not workable then this is not Catholocism, divorce is relatively easy in Islam.

[ImAli]

Focus. It isn't about me. The question is one of context. Why would a Muslim man feel the need to hide a religiously permissible act from a nominally Muslim wife? Answer: women with un-Islamic attitudes that want to haramify the halal.

No one is trying to make mutah or polygamy haram....but what you have to understand is that it is NOT for every single marriage out there. Isn't it my right to have my own account for any money I may earn? The problem is my husband gets upset at the idea of me having my own account and takes it as an insult. It is my right, but I don't do it because of our understanding, any money I earned when I was working in the hospital and any money I may earn now from freelance work I do goes into our joint account. Is that haram? Was he doing haram by not allowing me to have my own account? No he isn't...it is an understanding between us.

[Ruq]

Kadhim - If you desire a response to your posts i will do so once you have apologised for the vile rant you tossed my way a couple of weeks back. If your behaviour deteriorates to that extent again you no longer exist on this board as far as im concerned.

No one is trying to make mutah or polygamy haram....but what you have to understand is that it is NOT for every single marriage out there. Isn't it my right to have my own account for any money I may earn? The problem is my husband gets upset at the idea of me having my own account and takes it as an insult. It is my right, but I don't do it because of our understanding, any money I earned when I was working in the hospital and any money I may earn now from freelance work I do goes into our joint account. Is that haram? Was he doing haram by not allowing me to have my own account? No he isn't...it is an understanding between us.

Good point. Relationships are always about give and take to make them work, both parties have to be able to compromise in different ways and no 2 relationships run by the same rules. There are things i could demand Islamically but it isnt an issue for me because its not my personality to do so, we all have our set of priorities and we find a mate who you can make a good fit with. If personalities change and people start asking things that Islamically they may be entitled to but were not previously part of the understanding on which your relationship was based then it can start to struggle. You have the option of compromising further if you think the basic foundation you have is good and can take the extra pressure or you can take responsibility for your own welfare and happiness and leave. People here would have it believed to be a black and white issue, when it evidently, when ever you talk of emotional relationships, it is not.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ~Ruqaya's Amal~

[Haydar Husayn]

You may check the definition of 'cheat' and you will find that it complies with the situation in discussion. Alcohol can be a factor, but immaturity/naivity and downright irrisponsibility and arrogance is also.

Only if there is an underlying assumption that relationships should be monogamous.

With regard to human relationships, couples tend to expect sexual monogamy of each other. If so, then cheating commonly refers to forms of infidelity, particularly adultery. However, there are other divisions of infidelity, which may be emotional. Cheating by thinking of, touching and talking with someone you are attracted to may be equally damaging to one of the parties. Emotional cheating may be correlated to that of emotional abuse, which to date is treated seriously in a court of law as physical cheating. With the expansion of understanding of other cultures, there is a wide spectrum of what cheating means. When in a committed relationship, the definition of cheating is based on both parties' opinions, and both parties may redefine their understanding to match the party at an either lower or higher extreme of this definition. Some couples simply believe that cheating constitutes doing anything, whether verbal or physical, that one would not do in front of their significant other. Such examples would include: expressing attraction to another person, electronic communications,texting, data, kissing, making out, and sexual relations.

Many people consider cheating to be any violation of the mutually agreed-upon rules or boundaries of a relationship, which may or may not include sexual monogamy. For example, in some polygamous relationships, the concepts of commitment and fidelity do not necessarily hinge on complete sexual or emotional monogamy. Whether polygamous or monogamous, the boundaries to which people agree vary widely, and sometimes these boundaries evolve within each relationship.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating#Personal_relationships

So you see, 'cheating' is quite a flexible term. In Islam, making use of a God-given right without informing you wife is not cheating. On the other hand, comitting adultery would be cheating.

If people enter into a relationship with the understanding that both parties are open to plurality in theory there shouldnt be a problem. Either way there is no justification for betrayal, if a person initially agrees to plurality but in practice finds it not workable then this is not Catholocism, divorce is relatively easy in Islam.

It is not a question of whether the parties are open to anything. What is important is what Allah (swt) has allowed. As for divorce being relatively easy, that is much more true for man than a woman. Also, since divorce is so disliked by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, you probably should avoid doing it because your husband has done something halal or even mustahab. Why not try to better yourself spiritually instead, and learn to do things for the sake of Allah (swt) rather than yourself. This was the whole point of that video I posted a while ago that you said you liked:

[kadhim]

Kadhim - If you desire a response to your posts i will do so once you have apologised for the vile rant you tossed my way a couple of weeks back. If your behaviour deteriorates to that extent again you no longer exist on this board as far as im concerned.

On a completely unrelated note, folks, I'm thinking of starting a thread to discuss Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew. If anyone's interested, please let me know.

[Ruq]

Only if there is an underlying assumption that relationships should be monogamous.

http://en.wikipedia....l_relationships

So you see, 'cheating' is quite a flexible term. In Islam, making use of a God-given right without informing you wife is not cheating. On the other hand, comitting adultery would be cheating.

It is not a question of whether the parties are open to anything. What is important is what Allah (swt) has allowed. As for divorce being relatively easy, that is much more true for man than a woman. Also, since divorce is so disliked by Allah سبحانه وتعالى, you probably should avoid doing it because your husband has done something halal or even mustahab. Why not try to better yourself spiritually instead, and learn to do things for the sake of Allah (swt) rather than yourself. This was the whole point of that video I posted a while ago that you said you liked:

Here, i will help you out:

to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.

to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.

to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide

Now we know we are speaking the same language lets move on.

I dont think anyone here is debating that polygamy is halal, whether it is 'mustahab' is debateable, circumstances would very much dictate that. There is no reason to suppose it is the ideal circumstance for everyone just because it is halal

Just because something is legal, it doesn't always mean it's always ethical.

On a completely unrelated note, folks, I'm thinking of starting a thread to discuss Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew. If anyone's interested, please let me know.

I would imagine Don Juan would be more apropos.

[Haydar Husayn]

Here, i will help you out:

to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.

to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.

to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide

Now we know we are speaking the same language lets move on.

This doesn't back up your point at all. There is no fraud, deprevation of something expected, or deception involved in this situation unless you add a bunch of rules to an Islamic marriage that aren't there.

You need to understand that what cheating is depends on the rules of the 'game' you are playing. In a Christian marriage, having sex with anyone else than your wife would be considered cheating, since it is against the rules of that marriage. In an Islamic marriage, the rules are different, so you can't be considered to be cheating. If in Islam there was a requirement that you inform your wife before doing a muta or having sex with your slave girl, then if you didn't, you would be 'cheating'. However, there is no such rule, and so to not do so is not cheating. This really isn't very difficult to understand.

Just because something is legal, it doesn't always mean it's always ethical.

I was talking about Islamic ethics, not kafir ethics.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Haider Husayn

[Ruq]

This doesn't back up your point at all. There is no fraud, deprevation of something expected, or deception involved in this situation unless you add a bunch of rules to an Islamic marriage that aren't there.

You need to understand that what cheating is depends on the rules of the 'game' you are playing. In a Christian marriage, having sex with anyone else than your wife would be considered cheating, since it is against the rules of that marriage. In an Islamic marriage, the rules are different, so you can't be considered to be cheating. If in Islam there was a requirement that you inform your wife before doing a muta or having sex with your slave girl, then if you didn't, you would be 'cheating'. However, there is no such rule, and so to not do so is not cheating. This really isn't very difficult to understand.

I was talking about Islamic ethics, not kafir ethics.

The definition of a cheat doesnt magically change if a person is muslim, the definition is the definition. If you are decieving and lying and doing the things in the description i gave then you are by definition a cheat. If you are not doing those things then you are not being a cheat, it makes no difference what framework you put it in. What you are saying is that Islam makes lying and cheating halal by not enshrining in law the idea of consulting your wife about polygamy, but the over riding principle of lying being a sin over rides that anyway, so you dont need a specific law saying 'you must not have secret muta'.

[Haydar Husayn]

Did you not read what i posted earlier? The definition of cheating is flexible, and changes depending on the circumstances. Even in dictionaries, the definition says that cheating in a relationship is an informal usage of the word.

cheat (cht)

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v.tr.

1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.

2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.

4. To elude; escape: cheat death.

v.intr.

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

Let's check what unfaithful means:

un·faith·ful (n-fthfl)

adj.

1. Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal. See Synonyms at faithless.

2.

a. Not true or constant to one's sexual partner.

b. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery.

3. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.

4. Obsolete Deficient in or lacking religious faith; unbelieving.

Unless any promises of monogamy were made, are any promises broken? No. Are there any allegiances or obligations that are not adhered to? No.

Of course, you could always make your husband promise you that he will tell you, and then if he doesn't he will be breaking his promise.

[Ruq]

Did you not read what i posted earlier? The definition of cheating is flexible, and changes depending on the circumstances. Even in dictionaries, the definition says that cheating in a relationship is an informal usage of the word.

cheat (cht)

v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

v.tr.

1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.

2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.

4. To elude; escape: cheat death.

v.intr.

1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.

2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base.

Let's check what unfaithful means:

un·faith·ful (n-fthfl)

adj.

1. Not adhering to promises, obligations, or allegiances; disloyal. See Synonyms at faithless.

2.

a. Not true or constant to one's sexual partner.

b. Not true to one's spouse; guilty of adultery.

3. Not justly representing or reflecting the original; inaccurate.

4. Obsolete Deficient in or lacking religious faith; unbelieving.

Unless any promises of monogamy were made, are any promises broken? No. Are there any allegiances or obligations that are not adhered to? No.

Of course, you could always make your husband promise you that he will tell you, and then if he doesn't he will be breaking his promise.

It doesnt change due to cirsumstance at all, if you are employing deception/fraud/dishonesty you are cheating, no matter the situation, your conduct is one of a cheat. In reality people have an understanding of each other based on their experience of each other and dont feel the need to ask for a stipulation of refraining from dishonesty and deception in detail, they take for granted that the person is who they proclaim themselves to be with the consistency of their behaviour. If you want to demand a whole list of promises from your partner about what they will and wont do in order to determine what will technically fall under the definition of deception in the future then thats up to you, its come to a very sad state of affairs if thats the case.

[kadhim]

The default understanding of the arrangement in an Islamic marriage should be what Islam teaches, as understood from the sources and competent scholarship. And this default says that informing is optional. There are traditions that speak to this explicitly, as I recall.

That's the baseline to be "taken for granted" in an Islamic marriage.

If people want to depart from that, that is something that needs to be explicitly mutually discussed and agreed.

But when you offer yourself in Islamic marriage, there's a package that is by default understood to go along with that.

But really, it comes back to the fact that men would not have any inclination to be secretive if women would simply fix their split allegiances and accept the idea of polygamy as part of the religion's accepted practice, not as a hypothetical theoretical, but as a concrete reality. In that context, the man can feel comfortable bringing a potential second marriage forward, knowing it is going to be a rational, practical, level-headed, calm discussion rather than some irrational emotionally based argument.

"Oh, OK, you're not irrationally insecure; you're worried about money matters and a few other practical issues A,B,C. OK. Is there some way we can figure out a solution to those challenges together? How about this? etc."

Edited September 22, 2011 by kadhim

[Haydar Husayn]

Ruqaya, if you stopped insisting on defending your position, and took the time to carefully read what I and others have written and thought about it for a while, then you wold understand where you are going wrong.

Your problem is always essentially the same with Islam. You think you have access to some objective moral truths, which are based on your experience and upbringing. You refuse to accept that maybe Islam has a diferent idea of morality than you do in some areas, which if you think about it isn't actually surprising. It would be amazing if the modern Western secular world taught a morality that was entirely consistent with Islamic morality. Now, many people will claim that it doesn't, and that Islam is obviously better on issues such as sexual morality (or what they think Islamic sexual morality is anyway), alcohol, respect, etc. These are issues where there is still some strands of Western thought that are in accordance with Islamic teachings, mainly due to what remains of Christian morality. However, on the issues where there is uniform agreement, such as polygamy, 'secret muta', young age of marriage, slavery, 'domestic abuse', or whatever else people like you have a problem with, then you get troubled. What a coincidence, right? Of course, it can't be anything to do with the culture you were raised in. No, it must be because these things are in actuality absolutely wrong, and either Islam needs to be reformed in order to get rid of this (different time and place, and all that), or these things were never part of Islam and are fabrications.

Nobody can be blamed for the way in which or the place in which they were brought up, so this isn't the problem in itself. The problem lies in not wanting to acknowledge how much you are influenced by non-Islamic teachings on issues of morality, and not wanting to make any efforts to change the way you think.

[ImAli]

If people want to depart from that, that is something that needs to be explicitly mutually discussed and agreed.

This is exactly what I was trying to explain when I was giving the example of my right to have my own account but I don't have my own account because it is an agreement and understanding in our relationship. Of course I could have a secret account...but I don't do it and I wouldn't feel right about sneaking around to have one. Like another person said no situation is black and white and the dynamics of every family is different. Polygamy is the best option for some families...but not all families.

[Haydar Husayn]

This is exactly what I was trying to explain when I was giving the example of my right to have my own account but I don't have my own account because it is an agreement and understanding in our relationship. Of course I could have a secret account...but I don't do it and I wouldn't feel right about sneaking around to have one. Like another person said no situation is black and white and the dynamics of every family is different. Polygamy is the best option for some families...but not all families.

If you want to give up some of your rights, then that is your business, but it would be haraam for your husband to attempt to take that right away from you.

[hubbe_hussein110]

The definition of a cheat doesnt magically change if a person is muslim, the definition is the definition. If you are decieving and lying and doing the things in the description i gave then you are by definition a cheat. If you are not doing those things then you are not being a cheat, it makes no difference what framework you put it in. What you are saying is that Islam makes lying and cheating halal by not enshrining in law the idea of consulting your wife about polygamy, but the over riding principle of lying being a sin over rides that anyway, so you dont need a specific law saying 'you must not have secret muta'.

Call it cheating, deceiving, infidelity, lying, being unfaithful, etc... it really doesn't matter what you name it! It's within the confines of Islam and you cannot do anything about it. Deal with it.

[ImAli]

If you want to give up some of your rights, then that is your business, but it would be haraam for your husband to attempt to take that right away from you.

It could also be said that we have mutually agreed on me not having a separate account just as we have mutually agreed on our marriage remaining monogamous (before anyone tries to twist it him not marrying another). We are not taking away the rights of the other, it is an agreement between us.

[Ruq]

Ruqaya, if you stopped insisting on defending your position, and took the time to carefully read what I and others have written and thought about it for a while, then you wold understand where you are going wrong.

Your problem is always essentially the same with Islam. You think you have access to some objective moral truths, which are based on your experience and upbringing. You refuse to accept that maybe Islam has a diferent idea of morality than you do in some areas, which if you think about it isn't actually surprising. It would be amazing if the modern Western secular world taught a morality that was entirely consistent with Islamic morality. Now, many people will claim that it doesn't, and that Islam is obviously better on issues such as sexual morality (or what they think Islamic sexual morality is anyway), alcohol, respect, etc. These are issues where there is still some strands of Western thought that are in accordance with Islamic teachings, mainly due to what remains of Christian morality. However, on the issues where there is uniform agreement, such as polygamy, 'secret muta', young age of marriage, slavery, 'domestic abuse', or whatever else people like you have a problem with, then you get troubled. What a coincidence, right? Of course, it can't be anything to do with the culture you were raised in. No, it must be because these things are in actuality absolutely wrong, and either Islam needs to be reformed in order to get rid of this (different time and place, and all that), or these things were never part of Islam and are fabrications.

Nobody can be blamed for the way in which or the place in which they were brought up, so this isn't the problem in itself. The problem lies in not wanting to acknowledge how much you are influenced by non-Islamic teachings on issues of morality, and not wanting to make any efforts to change the way you think.

Again, the subject of 'secret muta' is not explicitly accomodated in Islam, you have to derive whether a thing could be accomodated taking into account the principles we do know are important and we know lying is a sin an we know as objectively as possible that trust is an integral part of a relationship because we can see the effects that a lack of trust has in relation to the safety of relationships/families and their happiness and wellbeing and we know from the Quran that your are to live with love and compassion and courteousy, that you are to take counsel with one another in matters and that you are to protect each other and also that muta itself, even for single men is the last option after chastity. Taking all those things into account, it does not seem reasonable for someone to come to the conclusion that secret muta is moral Islamically.

[Haydar Husayn]

It could also be said that we have mutually agreed on me not having a separate account just as we have mutually agreed on our marriage remaining monogamous (before anyone tries to twist it him not marrying another). We are not taking away the rights of the other, it is an agreement between us.

You can agree to whatever you want of course, but remember that our duty is first and foremost to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

3 – Ahmad b. `Ali b. Abi Talib at-Tabrisi in al-Ihtijaj from Muhammad b. `Abdullah b. Ja`far al-Himyari, that he wrote to Sahib az-Zaman عليه السلام asking him about the man who professes the truth and professes raj`a except that he has a family who agrees with him in all his affairs and he had promised her that he would not marry (another wife) upon her nor do mut`a nor journey by night. And he has done this for nineteen years, and he has honored his saying. So sometimes he is absent from his home for months and does not do mut`a and also does not move himself because of that. And he regards halting from whomever is with him of brethren and children and slave boys and deputies and entourage from what diminishes him in assets, and he is loves the station he is upon out of love for his family and inclination to her and maintenance for her and for himself, not out forbiddance of mut`a, rather he professes to Allah by it. So in the abandonment of that, is there a sin upon him or not?

The answer: It is preferable for him to obey Allah تعالى by mut`a that there clear away from him the swearing in disobedience, even if one time.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/muta/desirability-of-doing-muta-even-if-one-has-vowed-not-to

[Ruq]

It's within the confines of Islam

That is precisely what is being debated, some people are saying it is, some people it isnt, if it was clear cut the thread wouldnt exist in the first place.

Before you make another worthless post, allow me to direct you to something called 'the trash pit'.

[ImAli]

You can agree to whatever you want of course, but remember that our duty is first and foremost to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

3 – Ahmad b. `Ali b. Abi Talib at-Tabrisi in al-Ihtijaj from Muhammad b. `Abdullah b. Ja`far al-Himyari, that he wrote to Sahib az-Zaman عليه السلام asking him about the man who professes the truth and professes raj`a except that he has a family who agrees with him in all his affairs and he had promised her that he would not marry (another wife) upon her nor do mut`a nor journey by night. And he has done this for nineteen years, and he has honored his saying. So sometimes he is absent from his home for months and does not do mut`a and also does not move himself because of that. And he regards halting from whomever is with him of brethren and children and slave boys and deputies and entourage from what diminishes him in assets, and he is loves the station he is upon out of love for his family and inclination to her and maintenance for her and for himself, not out forbiddance of mut`a, rather he professes to Allah by it. So in the abandonment of that, is there a sin upon him or not?

The answer: It is preferable for him to obey Allah تعالى by mut`a that there clear away from him the swearing in disobedience, even if one time.

http://www.tashayyu....as-vowed-not-to

Nice try, we are not in a similar situation or away from each other for months at a time. We are home with each other every afternoon and every night so don't go implying that my husband is less of a man because he is not engaging in mutah and chooses to stay with our children and me instead. Funny how you had something on hand about mutah but not about women and their accounts.

Edited September 22, 2011 by ImAli

[Haydar Husayn]

Again, the subject of 'secret muta' is not explicitly accomodated in Islam, you have to derive whether a thing could be accomodated taking into account the principles we do know are important and we know lying is a sin an we know as objectively as possible that trust is an integral part of a relationship because we can see the effects that a lack of trust has in relation to the safety of relationships/families and their happiness and wellbeing and we know from the Quran that your are to live with love and compassion and courteousy, that you are to take counsel with one another in matters and that you are to protect each other

If a husband gives to charity without telling his wife, is he cheating her or lying to her?

and also that muta itself, even for single men is the last option after chastity. Taking all those things into account, it does not seem reasonable for someone to come to the conclusion that secret muta is moral Islamically.

Complete and utter nonsense for anyone that doesn't take a pick and mix approach to the sources. Muta is highly recommended even if you don't particuarly want or need to do it, not a last resort. The reward is for reviving the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), who by the way was always married while he was a prophet, so he must have been practicing muta while married. If he was doing it in Madina, then he had several permanent wives, even more than our limit of four. Since we don't have Aisha telling us about her insane jealousy of those mutas, you've got to presume she was not aware of them (other than the one in the hadith you reject).

[alimohamad40]

um ali

I dont advice that you mix up all your money it wont be fair for one of you or the other

I never touch the money of my children or wives , everything is separated and counted .

some times the wife is not happy inside her but just to keep the kindness she does it , if this case is true it becomes haraam.

if everyone is not 100% happy which you can not gurantee then its very bad

Ruqayah:

second marriage is cheating only if you follow a law which states that second marriage is outside the rules. If you marry based on islam then its legal to have a second marriage so it is not cheating

cheating is when you take something which is not your right through deception.

[ImAli]

um ali

I dont advice that you mix up all your money it wont be fair for one of you or the other

I never touch the money of my children or wives , everything is separated and counted .

some times the wife is not happy inside her but just to keep the kindness she does it , if this case is true it becomes haraam.

if everyone is not 100% happy which you can not gurantee then its very bad

Ruqayah:

second marriage is cheating only if you follow a law which states that second marriage is outside the rules. If you marry based on islam then its legal to have a second marriage so it is not cheating

cheating is when you take something which is not your right through deception.

I see your point...but thank goodness we are happy with the arrangement. I don't mind sharing an account with him at all and I love helping him when I can. I remember one month I did some freelance work on health related articles (ghostwriting for a website) and he had a very expensive traffic ticket....I paid it for him. There are many things I could demand and things he could demand because of Islam.....but we just keep it simple and so far it works out well for us. Although.....and this may blow your mind coming from me......when I get old and my husband starts getting on my nerves I, if we can afford it I might find him another wife so he will stay out of my hair and let me relax.

[Ruq]

If a husband gives to charity without telling his wife, is he cheating her or lying to her?

Complete and utter nonsense for anyone that doesn't take a pick and mix approach to the sources. Muta is highly recommended even if you don't particuarly want or need to do it, not a last resort. The reward is for reviving the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), who by the way was always married while he was a prophet, so he must have been practicing muta while married. If he was doing it in Madina, then he had several permanent wives, even more than our limit of four. Since we don't have Aisha telling us about her insane jealousy of those mutas, you've got to presume she was not aware of them (other than the one in the hadith you reject).

It would depend on circumstances, if he gave all his money away to charity or a significant proportion that would render their own living cirsumstances changed for the negative and without consulting his wife and knowing it would cause distress and put their relationship in danger then yes, that is a betrayal of trust and it could be considered that he has cheated her out of the conditions that there was an understanding she would be provided with. We've already established what a 'cheat' is.

It appears that you as much as anyone are taking a pick and mix approach to sources, citing any that agree with your position and ignoring anything that does not, including Quran.

'he must have been practing muta' - where is your evidence for that? you cannot assume that at all, infact it is established that the Prophet was monogomous for all the years Khadija was alive and so was Ali(as) to Fatima(as).

second marriage is cheating only if you follow a law which states that second marriage is outside the rules. If you marry based on islam then its legal to have a second marriage so it is not cheating

cheating is when you take something which is not your right through deception.

the subject is secret muta, not polygamy. You just described 'stealing', not cheating.

[kadhim]

<div>

<p>However, on the issues where there is uniform agreement, such as polygamy, 'secret muta', young age of marriage, slavery, 'domestic abuse', or whatever else people like you have a problem with, then you get troubled. What a coincidence, right? Of course, it can't be anything to do with the culture you were raised in. No, it must be because these things are in actuality absolutely wrong, and either Islam needs to be reformed in order to get rid of this (different time and place, and all that), or these things were never part of Islam and are fabrications.<br />

<br />

</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Without pulling too far aside...</p>

<p>While you have a point about her approach, let's be careful to keep distinct issues distinct. These are not all the same in terms of the level of argument that can be brought to bear. If she bends too easily in the wind, you may suffer from the opposite condition. By steadfastly sticking to the traditional line wthout exception, you avoid the messy question of where you draw the line between something open to reappraisal in the light of historical/social developments and something where the underlying reality has not meaningfully changed. But denying that there is a line there somewhere brings problems just as bending with the wind on everything does. It really takes an issue by issue approach.</p>

</div>

[Haydar Husayn]

It would depend on circumstances, if he gave all his money away to charity or a significant proportion that would render their own living cirsumstances changed for the negative and without consulting his wife and knowing it would cause distress and put their relationship in danger then yes, that is a betrayal of trust and it could be considered that he has cheated her out of the conditions that there was an understanding she would be provided with. We've already established what a 'cheat' is.

Nothing has been established because you don't understand the context in which the word cheat is used in monogamous marriages is not the same as in polygamous ones.

It appears that you as much as anyone are taking a pick and mix approach to sources, citing any that agree with your position and ignoring anything that does not, including Quran.

The ahadith on the desirability of muta are so numerous that if you reject them, you might as well reject any other part of the religion, because you will have no more certainty. You haven't provided a single reference contradicting the ahadith I have presented anyway.

'he must have been practing muta' - where is your evidence for that?

Do you actually read that ahadith I post? Almost all of them make clear that muta is the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). That means he practiced it. Do I really need to post all the ahadith again?

you cannot assume that at all, infact it is established that the Prophet was monogomous for all the years Khadija was alive and so was Ali(as) to Fatima(as).

It is established that they never took any other permanent wives during that time. If I'm not mistaken, there are reports of Imam Ali (as) doing muta while married to Fatima (as), although I'm not sure how authentic they are. It's clear that both of them did practice it at some point in their lives anyway.

[Ruq]

In relation to how many ahadith exist, i make no bones about the fact thay there are few that i have a solid faith in and Quran will always be my primary source to make judgements on such things (which should actually be the case for everyone). I do know that muta regarding the Prophet(as) and Ali(as) whilst being married to Khadija and Fatima(as) is definitely not a mainstream view and neither is 'secret muta' regarding the Prophet(saw). The subject is secret muta and all my previous points still stand including the definition of 'cheat'/'cheating. I dont think there is anywhere else to go with this discussion, you are happy to propagate deception and dishonesty as a desireable Islamic principle and i am not, if it was consistent with my experience i would agree with you, but it isnt, so i cant. I feel i have nothing more to say on the subject so dont think me being deliberately rude by not replying on here in future, it seems to me the whole exercise has become futile.

Salams.

[hubbe_hussein110]

In relation to how many ahadith exist, i make no bones about the fact thay there are few that i have a solid faith in and Quran will always be my primary source to make judgements on such things (which should actually be the case for everyone). I do know that muta regarding the Prophet(as) and Ali(as) whilst being married to Khadija and Fatima(as) is definitely not a mainstream view and neither is 'secret muta' regarding the Prophet(saw). The subject is secret muta and all my previous points still stand including the definition of 'cheat'/'cheating. I dont think there is anywhere else to go with this discussion, you are happy to propagate deception and dishonesty as a desireable Islamic principle and i am not, if it was consistent with my experience i would agree with you, but it isnt, so i cant. I feel i have nothing more to say on the subject so dont think me being deliberately rude by not replying on here in future, it seems to me the whole exercise has become futile.

Salams.

You are not debating at all, you are merely posting your own views of sexual morality based on your personal perceptions and experiences in life which hold a total weight of zero.

That is precisely what is being debated, some people are saying it is, some people it isnt, if it was clear cut the thread wouldnt exist in the first place.

Before you make another worthless post, allow me to direct you to something called 'the trash pit'.

Whether you like it or not at the end of the day, the man has no obligation to tell his wife if he has contracted marriage elsewhere be it temporary or permanent. Sucks for you I guess.