Co Wife Question

[Haydar Husayn]

Perhaps if you read my previous posts properly, it quite obviously reveals that I don't agree that it can be done 'without her permission'. Once again you delve into absurdity and ask me to prove what you claim. In the court of law, it doesn't work like that. Neither is it logically coherent. It's not your fault, considering the fact that you know you can't prove it to me.

The reason you think the burden of proof is on me is because you have no understanding of how islamic marriage contracts work. In Islam, everything is halal until proven haram, so it is up to you to prove it is haram, not for me to prove it is halal. Having up to 4 permanent wives is the right of a man, as is taking a theoretically unlimited number of temporary wives and slave girls. Since it is his right, which is unconditional, why should he have to ask his wife if he can make use of it?

Although it is unecessary for me to prove permission is not required, and neither is informing her, I will give some evidence anyway:

22 – And he said: And al-Fadl ash-Shaybani narrated by his isnad to al-Baqir عليه السلام that `Abdullah b. `Ata al-Makki asked him about the saying of Allah تعالى “And when the Prophet disclosed” (to the end of) the verse (66:3). So he said: Verily the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله married a freewoman in mut`a, and one of his wives found out about it and accused him of lewdness. So he said: It is allowed for me, it is a marriage with a term so keep it secret. So she informed one of his wives about it.

In this hadith, the Prophet (pbuh) is said to have done a 'secret muta'. People can argue this hadith is weak if they want, but that doesn't mean that it is certainly false, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it constitutes some kind of proof.

1 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. a-Husayn by his isnad from Bakr b. Muhammad from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I asked him about mut`a. So he said: Verily I dislike that the Muslim man should leave the world and there remains upon him a habit from the habits of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله which he has not carried out.

There are many ahadith saying muta was the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). So when do people think this was done? It almost certainly must have been during a time the Prophet (pbuh) was married. But when? When he was married to Khadija (as)? That would appear unlikely, for a few reasons, and in any case I'm sure most people would want to rule that out. So then it must have been while he was married to several wives. Does anyone think he went to get all of their individual permissions, including Aisha's when he wanted to do muta? Did he have to ask for their permissions when marrying another woman, or taking a slave girl? Of course not.

13 – And by the isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Ashyam from Marwan b. Muslim from Isma`il b. al-Fadl al-Hashimi. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: Have you done mut`a since you have gone out from your family? I said: Due to the abundance of what is with me of wives, Allah has made me needless of it. He said: And even if you are needless, for verily I love that you should revive the Sunna of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله.

Notice that the Imam (as) advised this man to do muta even though he said he was needless of it due to the abundance of wives (plural). Funny how he didn't put any condition on it related to the consent of those wives.

3 – Ahmad b. `Ali b. Abi Talib at-Tabrisi in al-Ihtijaj from Muhammad b. `Abdullah b. Ja`far al-Himyari, that he wrote to Sahib az-Zaman عليه السلام asking him about the man who professes the truth and professes raj`a except that he has a family who agrees with him in all his affairs and he had promised her that he would not marry (another wife) upon her nor do mut`a nor journey by night. And he has done this for nineteen years, and he has honored his saying. So sometimes he is absent from his home for months and does not do mut`a and also does not move himself because of that. And he regards halting from whomever is with him of brethren and children and slave boys and deputies and entourage from what diminishes him in assets, and he is loves the station he is upon out of love for his family and inclination to her and maintenance for her and for himself, not out forbiddance of mut`a, rather he professes to Allah by it. So in the abandonment of that, is there a sin upon him or not?

The answer: It is preferable for him to obey Allah تعالى by mut`a that there clear away from him the swearing in disobedience, even if one time.

So here we have a man that promised his wife that he would not take another wife or do muta. Yet sometimes he is on a journey for a few months and feels like doing it. The Imam (as) tells him to break the promise and obey Allah by doing muta. Do you think that the man had to first write to his wife asking her permission, or simply informing her, before he could do muta? Do you think such permission would be forthcoming in light of the fact that he promised her? If so, he would just have asked her himself to release him from his promise. Clearly, he doesn't believe she would, which is why he wrote to the Imam (as). This is clear proof that not only is it not required to ask for permission, or to inform her, but it is even permissible to break a promise to her that you wouldn't do it.

8 – And from `Ali from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Isma`il b. al-Fadl al-Hashimi. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about mut`a. So he said: Go meet `Abd al-Malik b. Jurayj and ask him about it, for verily he has knowledge about it. So I met him and he dictated many things to me in regards to its being deemed lawful, and in what Ibn Jurayj narrated to me regarding it was that there is no time and number in it, she is only with the status of the slave women, one marries from them however many one wants. And the one who has four wives marries from them what he wants without a guardian or witnesses. So when the term is expired, she is separated (?) from him without divorce. And he gives her the simple thing. And her `idda is two menstruations. And that if she does not menstruate, then it is forty-five days. He said: So I brought the writing to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام [and I presented it to him – in al-Kafi] and he said: He has spoken the truth and confirmed it. Ibn Udhayna said: And Zurara would say this and swear that it was the truth, except that he would say: If she menstruates, then a (single) menstruation, and if she does not menstruate, then a month and a half.

Even if you have four wives, you can still marry as many women as you want temporarily. Do you see anything here about asking the permission of those wives? Or anywhere else in this chapter for that matter?

6 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Musa b. Bakr from Zurara from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: And (it is allowed) for him to do mut`a if he wants while he has a wife, even if she is residing with him in his city.

If the permission of the wife was needed, wouldn't this be rather obvious? And don't you think the fact that it says 'if he wants', indicated that the wife has nothing to do with it?

And here is perhaps the most compelling proof:

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Muhammad b. Isma`il. He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام: Does the man do mut`a with the slave woman with the permission of her family when he has a free-woman wife? He said: Yes, when the free-woman consents. I said: And if the free-woman permits, does one do mut`a with her? He said:

Yes.

If the permission was always required, why only make this specification in the case of wanting to do muta with a slave girl when already married to a free woman?

Your last sentence just gave me a spasm attack in my head. There is certainly a good reason for demanding that he should need to tell her about it! A plethora of reasons which other members here have already provided. Your presupposition is that there exists 'no reason' and you think this way because you're not looking at this realistically, but theoretically. Can't you see the repercussions? Why do you choose to accept something you can't even substantiate or justify?

In case you hadn't noticed, we are discussing an issue of law here, so feelings don't really come into it. When I say good reasons, I mean good reasons coming from the Quran and ahadith.

I reiterate, the husband should make a pre-agreement with the wife before marriage or during marriage. Before he even considers approaching Muta, he must take the feelings of his spouse into account because this is her right.

You might think it should be like that, but that's not how the islamic marriage contract works. Do you also think the man needs to ask the wife's permission before taking a second permanent wife as well? In case you don't know, you do not have to ask for her permission (although I suppose you would have to inform her due to the fact that it makes a difference to her marriage rights, unlike her husband taking a temporary wife), and she can't even put such a clause in the marriage contract. The most she can do is ask for a clause giving her the right of divorce should he take another wife. She could do the same in the case of muta if she wanted to.

What a wise idea. That's logically equivalent to:

Wife: It's my birthday in a few days, what have you got me?

Husband: I'm not obliged to tell you, yet.

Wife: Oh, please tell me!

*pause*

Husband: Well, alright then. Put this blindfold on and get in the car.

*they get into the car and drive to an unknown location and the car halts. Wife gets out of the car*

Husband: ok, take your blindfold off now.

Wife: ok, so where's my present?

Husband: Behind you.

*he pushes her off a cliff*

What?

I have been told the following:

"It was the posts following that as well, not just 'silly goose'"

My posts are honest and cut to the issue. Its the only way I know and I will continue to do so and because of this I might as well be banned now and it will be my badge of honor for being honest. After all my years here and all my posts I would rather be banned than leave voluntarily and be tempted to return to where I have been hated for my faith, called many viscious names like urine drinker and worse, where people live in the West yet profess their hatred for it and profess love for somewhere they have never been and where someone will complain about being called a silly goose which they obviously are.

Man really can you Imagine someone reporting "Mr Admin (sob) this man called me a silly goose BO HO HO AW BO HO HO.

Peace

In case you are wondering, it wasn't me that reported you, and I didn't even see your post so I had no idea about any of the content until you mentioned this 'silly goose' stuff.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Haydar Husayn

[kim.tinkerbell]

Why dont you just tie her to the bed and tell her look my responsibility is to provide for you and bang you on a daily..... So you just sit here and wait for me....

So if the wife had an affair and she never told you about it its oky right? Oh hunn you never asked me thou ...

Is marraige only about what the man wants. Na its not...

Dont even enter a mono marraige if this is how you think... You cant start on a fake note. Marriage is about commitment, being faithful to eachother, trust , accepting the person with there highs and lows...

Do you think a woman cant sense you have done something ? You dont even have to speak she knows (will some can sense it)...

When someone says something about muta. Oh why did omar make ppl like so and so......

When a woman says his cheating ohhh jealousy they take that from ashia......

Gusss what some of you can be compared to ma3yia no humanity what so ever...

If you want to follow the foot steps og the propht(pbuh) then why you using the internet?

Out of all the stuff the propht did they want to go hard core muta....

Why did god state adultery if the man can muta even when his married?

What the point of it or isit only for the woman?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

^^ mutah is allowed for a married man. Rest of your post are some western and some islamic ideologies mixed together

[Haydar Husayn]

Why dont you just tie her to the bed and tell her look my responsibility is to provide for you and bang you on a daily..... So you just sit here and wait for me....

No comment.

So if the wife had an affair and she never told you about it its oky right? Oh hunn you never asked me thou ...

Why are you comparing halal and haram?

Is marraige only about what the man wants. Na its not...

No, of course it's not only about what the man wants.

Dont even enter a mono marraige if this is how you think... You cant start on a fake note. Marriage is about commitment, being faithful to eachother, trust , accepting the person with there highs and lows...

Do you think a woman cant sense you have done something ? You dont even have to speak she knows (will some can sense it)...

Yes, there should be honesty in a marriage. I don't think anyone is promoting dishonesty.

When someone says something about muta. Oh why did omar make ppl like so and so......

When a woman says his cheating ohhh jealousy they take that from ashia......

Gusss what some of you can be compared to ma3yia no humanity what so ever...

I'm not really seeing the comparison with Mu`awiya. But ok, let's take your version of humanity. Then to be consistent, I would have to condemn the behaviour in the first of these hadith, and the advice in the second:

Umm al-Fadhl wrote to her father [Caliph al-Ma'mun] from Medina, complaining about Abu Ja`far (al-Jawad), peace be upon him saying: "He has slave girls in his possession and makes me jealous." Al-Ma'mun wrote to her: "My little daughter, we did not marry you to Abu Jafar (al-Jawad), peace be upon him, so that we should forbid him what is permitted. Do not mention what you have mentioned against after this." (Kitab al-Irshad)

4 – And from them from Ahmad from his father from Muhammad b. Sinan from Khalid al-Qalanisi. He said: A man mentioned his wife to Abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام) praised her much. So Abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام) said to him: Have you made her jealous (i.e. by another woman)? He said: No. He said: Then make her jealous. So he made her jealous and she remained (steady, firm). So he said to Abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام): I have made her jealous and she remained. So he said: She is as you say.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/preliminaries/chapter-78

If you want to follow the foot steps og the propht(pbuh) then why you using the internet?

This isn't very logical. There is nothing in Islamic sources that would indicate that there is anything wrong with using the internet.

Out of all the stuff the propht did they want to go hard core muta....

What does 'hard core muta' mean? Obviously someone that only wants to pick and choose the parts of Islam he or she wants to follow is in the wrong. That is something that goes both ways however.

Why did god state adultery if the man can muta even when his married?

As Imam Ali (as) said: "had `Umar not prohibited it none but a wretch would have fornicated".

Would you also say that what is the point of punishing adultery if a man can just take another permanent wife?

What the point of it or isit only for the woman?

A man can still commit adultery if he has sex with an already married woman (while knowing she is married), or without having a permanent or temporary marriage contract.

[kim.tinkerbell]

Ohhh maybe because I live in west and u live in pakistain right???

Anyways mr haidaaaar what do mean halal and haram? So its oky if the man doesnt tell his wife ? It just doesnt work like that ... If he had a heart ( something you lack in lol) he wouldnt do that... Its halal bla bla bla we know

Hmmm whats mono marriage ? Two people right and not a 3rd

And he needs a good reason to do the m word ....

Didnt god say you shouldnt look at other woman because your woman have the same things???

What do you mean no comment dont tell me your actually going to do that....

Can you just answer without a hadith the aqeeel use that for 2mints ....

Do you think its fair to go off with another person will your married and dont tell me the propht (pbuh) did it .......

Theirs a big difference in entering a polygamy marriage and mono thats what I will say....

I said they are like ma3iwya because their robotic and ur included...

Really he can commit adultery intetesting you sure you dont have a hadith under your sleeve to justifi it ?

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

^^ calm down sister, its nothing to get emotional about and start calling people muwaiya (?) i assume you meant that. If you cant accept a law then ignore it, instead of trying to prove that its not right. You will be going against Allah's command, its better to ignore it as it doesnt deal with you.

[Haydar Husayn]

Ohhh maybe because I live in west and u live in pakistain right???

I was born, raised, and currently live in the West. I know exactly what Western views on these subjects are.

Anyways mr haidaaaar what do mean halal and haram?

Adultery is haram, muta is halal.

So its oky if the man doesnt tell his wife ? It just doesnt work like that ... If he had a heart ( something you lack in lol) he wouldnt do that... Its halal bla bla bla we know

What makes you think I don't even have a heart? I would advise people against doing muta while married unless there are exceptional circumstances, and I have said this many times, and explained why. However, that doesn't mean I agree with criticising people that would do muta. This isn't really that difficult to understand. I both uphold the fact that muta is halal while married (whether you tell your wife about it or not) and at the same time understand that given the culture that most of us live in today, it would be easier to not make use of this right in order to avoid domestic problems and hurting the feelings of the wife. That doesn't mean I agree with that culture either, or the reaction of women, and it would be better if they didn't have this reaction, but I do understand it, and that would lead me to make certain personal decisions.

Hmmm whats mono marriage ? Two people right and not a 3rd

Islam is not Christianity. Marriages are not by default monogamous.

And he needs a good reason to do the m word ....

'm word'. Lol. No, he doesn't need any particularly good reason other than just reviving the sunnah as the ahadith say. However, I wouldn't advise anyone to do it without some exceptional reason, unles perhaps they had never done it, just because the ahadith seem to place such importance on doing it at least once.

Didnt god say you shouldnt look at other woman because your woman have the same things???

I doubt it.

What do you mean no comment dont tell me your actually going to do that....

Considering I live in the West, it would hardly be possible for me to do that even if I wanted to. However, if I wanted to play devil's advocate, I could make a case for something roughly similar to what you describe. I was tempted to, but then the usual idiots would accuse me of 'promoting' or 'advocating' that type of behaviour, when in fact it is not how I envisage marriage in this society.

Can you just answer without a hadith the aqeeel use that for 2mints ....

Do you think its fair to go off with another person will your married and dont tell me the propht (pbuh) did it .......

My reason has to be based on some foundations, which is the Quran and the ahadith. How can I asnwer a moral questions without refering to those sources, when I don't believe in an independent morality outside of what Allah has revealed? If you are asking me whether according to my Western upbringing having a relationship with another woman while married is ok, then I would say it's not (because that is what I have been taught to believe). However, based on my religion, there is nothing wrong with it. But why should I follow my upbringing or culture, instead of my religion? If I were to do that, then in order to be consistent, I should just leave Islam.

Theirs a big difference in entering a polygamy marriage and mono thats what I will say....

There aren't two types of marriage contracts, monogamous and polygamous. There is just one, which allows a man to take up to 4 wives and do muta.

I said they are like ma3iwya because their robotic and ur included...

Ok, I can see why you would think that. I don't think it's the case, I just think it's better to leave emotions out of these types of discussions, because they serve no purpose in getting closer to the truth. In fact, they make it harder, because people's emotions prevent them from distinguishing between good and bad arguments.

Really he can commit adultery intetesting you sure you dont have a hadith under your sleeve to justifi it ?

Why would you need to commit adultery when you can do muta. The closest I could think of to that would be in the case where a man does muta with an already married woman. Then it is not his responsibility to find out if she is married (if he knows, then he obviously can't do muta with her).

3 – Muhamamd b. al-Hasan by his isnad from Muhammad b. Ahmad b. Yahya from `Ali b. as-Sindi from `Uthman b. `Isa from Ishaq b. `Ammar from Fadl the servant of Muhammad b. Rashid from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said: I married a woman in mut`a and it occurred to me that she has a husband. So I investigated that and found that she does have a husband. He said: And why did you investigate?!

4 – And from him from Ayyub b. Nuh from Mihran b. Muhammad from one of our companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: It was said to him: So and so married a woman in mut`a. So it was said to him: She has a husband. So he asked her. So Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: And why did he ask her?!

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/muta/chapter-10

[kim.tinkerbell]

Ofcourse I never literally meant your like ma3iwya his next level lol but some of you need to get a heart ....

[kim.tinkerbell]

I was talking to the brother above you about the west...

You getting emotional lool my conclusion if ever man did this then no one well get married....

What goes around comes around ...

[Haydar Husayn]

I was talking to the brother above you about the west...

His location says USA.

[kim.tinkerbell]

His location says USA.

Thanks for that .....

You can live in the west but have a mentailty like fresh lool

[satyaban]

Why dont you just tie her to the bed and tell her look my responsibility is to provide for you and bang you on a daily..... So you just sit here and wait for me....

So if the wife had an affair and she never told you about it its oky right? Oh hunn you never asked me thou ...

Is marraige only about what the man wants. Na its not...

Dont even enter a mono marraige if this is how you think... You cant start on a fake note. Marriage is about commitment, being faithful to eachother, trust , accepting the person with there highs and lows...

Do you think a woman cant sense you have done something ? You dont even have to speak she knows (will some can sense it)...

When someone says something about muta. Oh why did omar make ppl like so and so......

When a woman says his cheating ohhh jealousy they take that from ashia......

Gusss what some of you can be compared to ma3yia no humanity what so ever...

If you want to follow the foot steps og the propht(pbuh) then why you using the internet?

Out of all the stuff the propht did they want to go hard core muta....

Why did god state adultery if the man can muta even when his married?

What the point of it or isit only for the woman?

Apparently what you are complaining about are all legal in Islamic Law. I mean Haydar Husayn and others have cited the Quran to prove it. I am not a Muslim but they convinced me it is allowable. Does it put women at a disadvantage, well it looks like that to me but it is the law. It sounds unfair to me but again it is the Law and God knows best.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

Thanks for that .....

You can live in the west but have a mentailty like fresh lool

i dont mind having the mentality of "fresh" if that is in accordance with islam. Again, rest of your views are so mixed up that i am not even sure if you are brought up in shia household. Are you a convert?

[hubbe_hussein110]

I am beginning to think that kim.tinkerbell is just a troll

[Lanatin]

Apparently what you are complaining about are all legal in Islamic Law. I mean Haydar Husayn and others have cited the Quran to prove it. I am not a Muslim but they convinced me it is allowable. Does it put women at a disadvantage, well it looks like that to me but it is the law. It sounds unfair to me but again it is the Law and God knows best.

Secret mut'a isn't mentioned in the Quran. Please read Haydar Husayn's posts more carefully.

If you're talking about muta in general, then we all agree on that and I don't exactly see what's so unfair about it.

[Lanatin]

22 – And he said: And al-Fadl ash-Shaybani narrated by his isnad to al-Baqir عليه السلام that `Abdullah b. `Ata al-Makki asked him about the saying of Allah تعالى “And when the Prophet disclosed” (to the end of) the verse (66:3). So he said: Verily the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله married a freewoman in mut`a, and one of his wives found out about it and accused him of lewdness. So he said: It is allowed for me, it is a marriage with a term so keep it secret. So she informed one of his wives about it.

In this hadith, the Prophet (pbuh) is said to have done a 'secret muta'. People can argue this hadith is weak if they want, but that doesn't mean that it is certainly false, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, it constitutes some kind of proof.

This isn’t about weak or strong, this obscure narrative is a total myth in itself. The two possible causes for the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim are well known and mentioned by all the earliest muslim exegetes and chroniclers. Did you know Al-Tabtaba'ei, a shia as you fully well know, did not even bother mentioning this obscure filthy narrative as a possible cause for the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim? The thing is the evidence IS there, two completely different stories mentioned by the earliest historians themselves. Al-Tabtabei certainly put them in consideration, in stark contrast with this 'narration' which was written over 300 years after the prophet's death and has no historical value whatsoever. In conclusion, this is actually the only *ahem* 'hadith' which condones secret muta in the whole shia canon and constitutes no proof whatsoever.

It's little surprise there are sunnis out there who say our books are full of myths that attempt to rewrite history...I mean what i've noticed with all these mut'a hadiths is that there seemed to be a sudden surge over the fixation on the legality of mut'a in shia fiqh to the extent some sneaky b*st*rds in the chain of narrators decided to fabricate a disgusting tale behind the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim to justify cheating on his wife or for a peculiar agenda. God knows best though.

Edited December 20, 2011 by La'nat Ma Man

[Haydar Husayn]

This isn’t about weak or strong, this obscure narrative is a total myth in itself. The two possible causes for the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim are well known and mentioned by all the earliest muslim exegetes and chroniclers. Did you know Al-Tabtaba'ei, a shia as you fully well know, did not even bother mentioning this obscure filthy narrative as a possible cause for the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim? The thing is the evidence IS there, two completely different stories mentioned by the earliest historians themselves. Al-Tabtabei certainly put them in consideration, in stark contrast with this 'narration' which was written over 300 years after the prophet's death and has no historical value whatsoever. In conclusion, this is actually the only *ahem* 'hadith' which condones secret muta in the whole shia canon and constitutes no proof whatsoever.

It's little surprise there are sunnis out there who say our books are full of myths that attempt to rewrite history...I mean what i've noticed with all these mut'a hadiths is that there seemed to be a sudden surge over the fixation on the legality of mut'a in shia fiqh to the extent some sneaky b*st*rds in the chain of narrators decided to fabricate a disgusting tale behind the revelation of Surat Al-Tahrim to justify cheating on his wife or for a peculiar agenda. God knows best though.

God knows best but the narrators are "sneaky b*st*rds" who fabricated a "disgusting" hadith (that by the way isn't too dissimilar to ones found in Sunni books regarding Maria al-Qibtiyaa or some other unnamed slave girl)? Why do so when they had so many ahadith from the Imams on the permissibility and desirability of muta?

Anyway, how about you address the other ahadith I quoted and arguments I made, instead of fixating on this one?

[Lanatin]

God knows best but the narrators are "sneaky b*st*rds" who fabricated a "disgusting" hadith (that by the way isn't too dissimilar to ones found in Sunni books regarding Maria al-Qibtiyaa or some other unnamed slave girl)? Why do so when they had so many ahadith from the Imams on the permissibility and desirability of muta?

Anyway, how about you address the other ahadith I quoted and arguments I made, instead of fixating on this one?

The other hadiths don't say anything about secret mut'a, so I don't need to address them.

And Mariyal Qibtiyya was known by all as a servant, it's a really bad parallel to the 'secret mut'a' myth.

[Haydar Husayn]

The other hadiths don't say anything about secret mut'a, so I don't need to address them.

And Mariyal Qibtiyya was known by all as a servant, it's a really bad parallel to the 'secret mut'a' myth.

So doing muta behind your wives' back is disgusting, but having sex with a slave girl without informing them is ok (in the house of one of the wives according to some reports)? I'm struggling to see the big difference.

[Lanatin]

So doing muta behind your wives' back is disgusting, but having sex with a slave girl without informing them is ok (in the house of one of the wives according to some reports)? I'm struggling to see the big difference.

You know it's a bad parallel, maid servants are openly stated to be halal for relations and Hafsa became angry because the intercourse was performed in her house while she left to attend to whatever she did (can't exactly remember but not important to the topic at hand). No man needs to 'inform' one of his wives that he is copulating with his other permanent wife either, it's a given.

Secret mut'a on the other hand is a spontaneous and temporary relationship that none of the wives have any knowledge of, so it naturally comes as a shock.

[Haydar Husayn]

You know it's a bad parallel, maid servants are openly stated to be halal for relations and Hafsa became angry because the intercourse was performed in her house while she left to attend to whatever she did (can't exactly remember but not important to the topic at hand). No man needs to 'inform' one of his wives that he is copulating with his other permanent wife either, it's a given.

Secret mut'a on the other hand is a spontaneous and temporary relationship that none of the wives have any knowledge of, so it naturally comes as a shock.

Ok, here is a question for you. A man buys a slave girl at the market. Does he need to inform his wives about it either before buying her or before having sex with her?

[Lanatin]

Ok, here is a question for you. A man buys a slave girl at the market. Does he need to inform his wives about it either before buying her or before having sex with her?

You are really going off on a tangent here, for one thing Mariyah wasn't 'purchased' at any slave market she was sent by the Patriarch of Alexandria as a gifted maid servant.

I've said all I needed to that is relevant to the topic now, i'll leave the rest to whoever wishes to revive this deeply enlightening thread.

Edited December 20, 2011 by La'nat Ma Man

[Haydar Husayn]

You are really going off on a tangent here, for one thing Mariyah wasn't 'purchased' at any slave market she was sent by the Patriarch of Alexandria as a gifted maid servant.

I've said all I needed to that is relevant to the topic now, i'll leave the rest to whoever wishes to revive this deeply enlightening thread.

It's not a tangent at all, and I'm not talking about Maria. You said the the main point was that the wives would be shocked by a 'secret muta' because they wouldn't be aware of it. So this question is very relevant.

[Haydar Husayn]

I am beginning to think that kim.tinkerbell is just a troll

She is not a troll, and is far more reasonable than some of the other sisters on here. I don't think it helps anything to call people who disagree trolls, or other derogatory names. Just take what they say at face value, i.e. that they are struggling to come to terms with certain aspects of islamic law.

[kim.tinkerbell]

I am beginning to think that kim.tinkerbell is just a troll

" O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion indeed some suspicion are sins" 49:12

Why would I troll around with my own people? If I wanted to troll I would be on a wahabi site stateing " you must be living in china town to think ma3wyia is khalfia"

Am not suprised that this is coming from you . Let me know when you go to hajji so the thanb your carrying will go.....

Think before you speak lil boy...

As for mr U.S.A aka waiting I am a born shia. Would a convert think that you have to stau clean till you get premenatliy married? Let me know if you have.

Just because I said oh he has to tell her and what a true relationship is about I get questioned about my faith? What am I the only one that thinks this way. Theirs alot people born shia that think this way...

Why do you people have to bring faith into everything a person says...

Hmmm I wonder why people leave islam ...maybe because if the want answers to their question they get crticied and questioned about their faith. Some just dont even try to understand where the person is coming from. They just jump and suspicet you sure your a shia?

Mr satyaban you see they make it look like a woman is oppressed and she has no rights bla bla bla lol

But islam has givin woman alot of rights that some men try to cover up. The sad fact is that is islam was the 1st to give woman rights yet the media makes it look like we have no rights. But is it their faulity because us muslims have allowed them to talk like this because one person say islam is like this when its not but how would the others know that what some musilms say is not part of islam...

The op was beaten up did the propht ever beat up any of his wifes ? No he never.

If a not wrong but the propht(pbuh) stated that" Nobody respects woman but those who are dignified and generouse and nobody insults them but those who are mean and contemptible".

And for the despreat ones that dont think this for you . " One who rushes madly after inordinate desire, run the risk of encountering destruction and death" Imam ali (as)

And for the hard core polgyment " And you will never be able to be equal (in feelings) between wives , even if you should strive to do so" 4:129

Funny no one showed these sayings I guss its only a limited edition book only specilised with muta ....

Oh hubbe check my records their probably cleaner then yours by far. I aint low life to troll you would say anything to get me banned I see you tripping lil one....

Oh you see everyone can back their points with hadiths mr y...

And dont ever question me about my faith do you understand that when I see you in the day of judgment I show how shia I am mr usa.....

[Haydar Husayn]

Apparently what you are complaining about are all legal in Islamic Law. I mean Haydar Husayn and others have cited the Quran to prove it. I am not a Muslim but they convinced me it is allowable. Does it put women at a disadvantage, well it looks like that to me but it is the law. It sounds unfair to me but again it is the Law and God knows best.

There are other islamic laws that put men at a disadvantage. For example, a man is obligated to provide for his wife and children, while the wife has no obligation to contribute anything to the household. Even if she does housework, she has the right to ask to be paid for it. So some laws favour men more, and some favour women more, but in the end they kind of balance each other out.

[satyaban]

Secret mut'a isn't mentioned in the Quran. Please read Haydar Husayn's posts more carefully.

If you're talking about muta in general, then we all agree on that and I don't exactly see what's so unfair about it.

Though they are not the same I also favor legalization of prostitution.

[ImAli]

Though they are not the same I also favor legalization of prostitution.

Making it illegal certainly hasn't stopped the oldest profession in the book has it LOL.

[Awaiting_for_the12th]

" O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion indeed some suspicion are sins" 49:12

Why would I troll around with my own people? If I wanted to troll I would be on a wahabi site stateing " you must be living in china town to think ma3wyia is khalfia"

Am not suprised that this is coming from you . Let me know when you go to hajji so the thanb your carrying will go.....

Think before you speak lil boy...

As for mr U.S.A aka waiting I am a born shia. Would a convert think that you have to stau clean till you get premenatliy married? Let me know if you have.

Just because I said oh he has to tell her and what a true relationship is about I get questioned about my faith? What am I the only one that thinks this way. Theirs alot people born shia that think this way...

Why do you people have to bring faith into everything a person says...

Hmmm I wonder why people leave islam ...maybe because if the want answers to their question they get crticied and questioned about their faith. Some just dont even try to understand where the person is coming from. They just jump and suspicet you sure your a shia?

Mr satyaban you see they make it look like a woman is oppressed and she has no rights bla bla bla lol

But islam has givin woman alot of rights that some men try to cover up. The sad fact is that is islam was the 1st to give woman rights yet the media makes it look like we have no rights. But is it their faulity because us muslims have allowed them to talk like this because one person say islam is like this when its not but how would the others know that what some musilms say is not part of islam...

The op was beaten up did the propht ever beat up any of his wifes ? No he never.

If a not wrong but the propht(pbuh) stated that" Nobody respects woman but those who are dignified and generouse and nobody insults them but those who are mean and contemptible".

And for the despreat ones that dont think this for you . " One who rushes madly after inordinate desire, run the risk of encountering destruction and death" Imam ali (as)

And for the hard core polgyment " And you will never be able to be equal (in feelings) between wives , even if you should strive to do so" 4:129

Funny no one showed these sayings I guss its only a limited edition book only specilised with muta ....

Oh hubbe check my records their probably cleaner then yours by far. I aint low life to troll you would say anything to get me banned I see you tripping lil one....

Oh you see everyone can back their points with hadiths mr y...

And dont ever question me about my faith do you understand that when I see you in the day of judgment I show how shia I am mr usa.....

wow ok. Again, only emotions.

[kim.tinkerbell]

only emotions.

It takes one to know one.....

What you wowing ??? Anyways your asking for all this even thou you dont desrve any of it...

I guss your emotional side is working know.....

[Guest a.shia.muslim.brother.110]

Salam u alaykom all,

Sorry to be a bit off the topic. But, I'm actually looking for a true Shia revert wife.

Please feel free to contact me for more details:

a.shia.muslim.brother.110@gmail.com

assalam u alaykom

[Hoper]

Asalam Aleikum

Interesting posts and I did not read them all, just would like to say as a former Salafi that many followers of the Quran and Ahlul Bayt (as) have a narrow minded and a cultural pre-Islamic view on Mutah. We can see our Ulema and muqalids give 3 hours khutbah on how halal Mutah is and bring fabulous logical arguments and strong Quranic and hadith evidence, but in reality may of us end up doing taqlid on this issue to the 2nd Khalifah.

sur Imams do not use words out of the blue and the famous hadith of Imam Ali (as) that Mutah is a mercy from Allah to mankind (or Ummah) not sure about the exact wording is an excellent explanation. The reality is that man's Fitra is polygamous and if women would take an open minded and culturally non-bias view on this many problems in gender relations would be solved in our community and in the wider world. Even in Mexico today they realize that permanent marriage cannot be the only solution to gender relations in the contemporary global setting, worth reading this news - Mexico City plans 'renewable' marriage http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-15114406

I am blessed in marrying a women who does not make what Allah made halal for me a restriction. However, I would like to hear what women have to say about positive experiences of Mutah. How did it help you in your life, spiritual growth, finding a permanent husband and not committing Haram and so on. There is so much negative written about Mutah due to prioritizing ones ethnic customs over Islam, so I would like to hear positive experiences.

[Hoper]

Asalamu Ualeikum!

Would any sisters give a reply on their positive view on Mutah? How did it help you in your life, spiritual growth, finding a permanent husband and not committing Haram and so on. There is so much negative written about Mutah due to prioritizing ones ethnic customs over Islam, so I would like to hear positive experience from women. By sharing your positive perspective on this, you are actually revving the Sunna of the Prophet (as) and his Ahlul Bayt (as).

Edited July 24, 2012 by Hoper

[Walkin' Fashion Statement]

Asalamu Ualeikum!

Would any sisters give a reply on their positive view on Mutah? How did it help you in your life, spiritual growth, finding a permanent husband and not committing Haram and so on. There is so much negative written about Mutah due to prioritizing ones ethnic customs over Islam, so I would like to hear positive experience from women. By sharing your positive perspective on this, you are actually revving the Sunna of the Prophet (as) and his Ahlul Bayt (as).

Well I never really did mutah with any man, but I think Mutah is a great way for two people that are interested in one another to get to know each other without accidentally maybe committing haram. I think most women would refuse to do "sex" mutah with a random person. I would refuse too because it feels wrong to sleep with someone you aren't even attracted to. But no sexual contact in Mutah is what I would accept If I was attracted to that person.

In today's society, Mutah is frowned upon by some families even if it's under a no sexual contact contract. The ideal way of marrying is permanent marriage. Some families do not understand that this is a great way for their children to not commit zina or any other haram acts.

Finding a permanent decent husband may be hard because some men do not like their wives to be "experienced". They get suspicious of her committing haram which is totally ridiculous.

[Hoper]

Salams,

Thank you for the input. It is true that Muslim men are eager to use this halal channel but when women do so they are looked down upon, it comes from the lack of ideological commitment to Islam and prioritizing ones ethnic identity over the Islamic one, this is less the case in the West where the 2nd generation of Muslims is much more committed to Islam as a way of life rather than a religion of their mom and dad.

When I witness cultural influences on Islam, I remember the words of Ayatollah Fadlllah (May Allah Reward him) - Muslims made holy things unholy and unholy things holy.

Thank you sister.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Hoper