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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Ridha A.s-regarding Prophets And Wassi's

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Salamualaykum

I've recently listened to the biography of Imam Ridha a.s and the sayed narrated the incident when a man approached the Imam and told him:

"You claim to be the son of Hussain a.s and you take a position under a tyrant"

To which the Imam a.s replied:

"Who is higher in status a prophet or a wassi?

the man said "a Prophet"

Imam: "Shall i tell you of a prophet that took a position under an oppressor in the Quran by choice whilst i took it by force?"

And he narrated how Yusuf a.s in the Quran did the same.

My Q is, Who is higher a Prophet or an Imam? I heard that our Imams have a higher status than prophets except for Rasool Allah a.s

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(salam)

RasoolAllah (pbuh) Is an imam and a prophet, however we refer to him as a prophet or messenger.

Also in the Qur'an it says that the status of Prophet Ibrahim (as) was raised from a prophet to an imam (however the 12 imams (as) are higher than Prophet Ibrahim (as))

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Also Imam Ali (as) said that if the veils were removed from his eyes and he could see the unseen he would not be any more certain of Allah (swt) however prophet Ibrahim (as) asked Allah (swt) to show something being ressurrected so hes heart could become certain.

Also The mother of Prophet Isa (as) Bibi Maryam (sa) was ordered to leave masjid al aqsa when giving birth because it was a place of worship and not childbirth however the doors of the Kaaba opened for the mother of Imam Ali (as).

Also Prophet Musa (as) was scared to go back to egypt because he had killed 1 person in egypt and was scared of what would happen to him however Imam Ali (as) was not scared to go to some town (i cant remember which one) and in every single house there was at least 1 person who was killed by him (in war)

(wasalam)

Edited by Shia_Debater
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(bismillah)

First, Show us the source of this hadeeth from Imam al-Rida عليه السلام because I have my suspicions that that is not the correct translation.

Secondly, it's clear from other narratives that the Imams (as) are better than the Prophets preceding Khatim al-Ambiya (pbuh).

Here is one example: 16. Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjàl appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjàl by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.”

(Bihàr, 24, 328, 46)

في أمان الله

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(salam)

RasoolAllah (pbuh) Is an imam and a prophet, however we refer to him as a prophet or messenger.

Also in the Qur'an it says that the status of Prophet Ibrahim (as) was raised from a prophet to an imam (however the 12 imams (as) are higher than Prophet Ibrahim (as))

And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Also Imam Ali (as) said that if the veils were removed from his eyes and he could see the unseen he would not be any more certain of Allah (swt) however prophet Ibrahim (as) asked Allah (swt) to show something being ressurrected so hes heart could become certain.

Also The mother of Prophet Isa (as) Bibi Maryam (sa) was ordered to leave masjid al aqsa when giving birth because it was a place of worship and not childbirth however the doors of the Kaaba opened for the mother of Imam Ali (as).

Also Prophet Musa (as) was scared to go back to egypt because he had killed 1 person in egypt and was scared of what would happen to him however Imam Ali (as) was not scared to go to some town (i cant remember which one) and in every single house there was at least 1 person who was killed by him (in war)

(wasalam)

Great post bro, it makes sense. But my question is why would Imam al Ridha a.s say that? unless he hadith is false, in which case the sayed would have said so i guess.

(bismillah)

First, Show us the source of this hadeeth from Imam al-Rida عليه السلام because I have my suspicions that that is not the correct translation.

Secondly, it's clear from other narratives that the Imams (as) are better than the Prophets preceding Khatim al-Ambiya (pbuh).

Here is one example: 16. Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjàl appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjàl by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.”

(Bihàr, 24, 328, 46)

في أمان الله

Thats the thing he didn't give any references, He was telling the stry f the biography of the Imam a.s and he came across how his own followers were questioning his conduct.

Salamualaykum

I've recently listened to the biography of Imam Ridha a.s and the sayed narrated the incident when a man approached the Imam and told him:

"You claim to be the son of Hussain a.s and you take a position under a tyrant"

To which the Imam a.s replied:

"Who is higher in status a prophet or a wassi?

the man said "a Prophet"

Imam: "Shall i tell you of a prophet that took a position under an oppressor in the Quran by choice whilst i took it by force?"

And he narrated how Yusuf a.s in the Quran did the same.

My Q is, Who is higher a Prophet or an Imam? I heard that our Imams have a higher status than prophets except for Rasool Allah a.s

Besides "Tyrant" he said mushrik sorry my bad

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As far as the Hadith goes it could be a misintereptation aside from the level of the Prophets (as) and Imams (as) there is no problem with the hadith you might want to ask this question to an Alim for better understanding. And the Name of the city that Amirul Mumineen (as) was sent to was Mecca after the revelation of Surah Al Barah/Munafaqun to nullify the treaty of Hudabiya with the Quraish, by reciting the verses of the Surah mentioned above.

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(bismillah)

First, Show us the source of this hadeeth from Imam al-Rida Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã because I have my suspicions that that is not the correct translation.

Secondly, it's clear from other narratives that the Imams (as) are better than the Prophets preceding Khatim al-Ambiya (pbuh).

Here is one example: 16. Khaythama reported that Abu Ja‘far said, “…O Khaythama! There will come a time for the people when they will not know who is Allah and His unity until Dajjàl appears and Jesus the son of Mary, may peace and blessings be with both of them, descends from the sky, and Allah will kill Dajjàl by his hands and a man that is from our House will pray with the people. Do you not know that Jesus will pray behind us, although he is a prophet? Beware that we are better than him.”

(Bihàr, 24, 328, 46)

Ýí ÃãÇä Çááå

There has never been consensus among shi'a scholars regarding the superiority of Imams of Ahlulbayt (as) over Prophets (as).

See: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1980835

Regarding that hadith you posted, see: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1981586

w/s

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Salam Alaikum

Lets suppose that this hadeeth is authentic.

Now read the hadeeth again - where does the Imam [a] say that the prophets are higher than the 12 Imams [a]? He posed this question to a person who may not have had true Marifah, and this is somewhat evident in the type of question he is asking an infallible Imam, and the Imam [a] is answering according to that person's beliefs.

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Salam Alaikum

Lets suppose that this hadeeth is authentic.

Now read the hadeeth again - where does the Imam [a] say that the prophets are higher than the 12 Imams [a]? He posed this question to a person who may not have had true Marifah, and this is somewhat evident in the type of question he is asking an infallible Imam, and the Imam [a] is answering according to that person's beliefs.

It's not as simple as that, when you ask the question, whom is higher a Prophet or a Wasi, you are implying that one is higher then the other. It cannot be said a Wasi is higher then a Prophet, because it would be Ali is greater then Mohammad. Therefore the obvious answer is a Prophet is higher. In other words, it's a statement in itself that one is higher then the other, but the answer that a wasi is higher is absurd because no one will say anyone is higher then Mohammad. Also, the question is posed in a way to prove a point. Therefore when the person says a Prophet, and he doesn't respond in negative, he is saying "here is the point I'm making...", and the point is based on the fact being true.

Edited by MysticKnight
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Why does one have to be higher than the other? What difference does it make anyway? A lot of Shias come across a bit like fans of historical sports players in these discussions. Basically, we follow the 12 Imams (as), and therefore we should insist that they are greater than anyone else other than the Prophet (pbuh), regardless of whether there is any strong evidence for it or not. I don't think this makes much sense. Why not just say we don't know, and leave it at that?

And before anyone brings up Imam Mahdi (as) leading Isa (as) in prayer, that is weak because Isa (as) is not returning as a Prophet and therefore has less status than he did before, while Imam Mahdi (as) has a specific role as leader of the Muslims. Also, the narration could backfire on the person making the argument, since Isa (as) is first offered the chance to lead the prayers, which could arguably be an indication of his status. As for Ibrahim (as) becoming an Imam, that doesn't have to signify anything more than yet another function been given to him. As well as being a Prophet and a Messenger, he was now an Imam. That doesn't imply being an Imam is a higher status, it's justs different. And since he was both a Messenger and an Imam, how come he should have lesser status than someone who is just an Imam?

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From WABIL:

Question: Is it true that the Imams of AhlulBayt have a higher status than all the Prophets except the final? Please provide evidence if possible.

Answer: The status of Prophet Mohammad (SAWA) is higher than all the prophets as he is the master of all the prophets. This is a fact agreed upon by all Muslim scholars. The status of his holy progeny is from his status as Allah (SWT) says ÐõÑøöíøóÉð ÈóÚúÖõåóÇ ãöäú ÈóÚúÖò [Âá ÚãÑÇä/34](Progeny every part of it is from the other part)(Aal Imran 34), so, the status the divine successors of the Prophet Mohammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå, is from his status and hence greater than the status of all the previous prophets. We have many Quranic evidences to prove this fact. You may read the life of the previous prophets in Quran and compare with the Prophet Mohammad (SAWA) and his Ahlul Bayt (as), you will see then many evidences. Hajjaj who was one of the tyrant enemies of Imam Ali (as), captured a Mo'mina lady by name of Hurrah daughter of Adiyy Bin Hatam al Taa'ee , the famous man among Arabs. Hajjaj asked her : I heared that you claim that Ali is better than all other Sahabah ? She said: I claim that Ali is not only better than all the Sahabah, but also better than all the previous prophets. Hajjaj became angry and said: If you do not bring evidence of your claim, I will kill you. She said: Adam (AS)was told not to eat from the tree, still he ate, but Ali (AS)was not told to leave his Iftar, still he gave his food willingly to the poor, orphan and prisoner for the love of Allah. Noah (AS)'s wife and son were disbelievers, and Ali'(AS)'s wife is Fatima and his sons are Hasan and Husain. Ibrahim (AS)asked Allah to show him how He gives life to deads, Allah asked him: Did not you believe? Ibrahin said: Yes, but for the sake of certainty in my heart. Ali said : If the curtains of every truth are removed, My certainty will not increase. Musa (as) left the town fearing and expecting the danger from his enemies, while Ali (as) slept on the bed of the Prophet (SAWA) on the night of Hijra. Easa (AS)'s mother Maryam was worshipping Allah (SWT) in Baitul Maqdis when she felt labor, then she was told to leave the place (This is a place of worship and not palce of giving birth), while the mother of Ali (as) was not inside the Ka'bah, still was was called to enter the Ka'bah to give birth to Ali (as). Hajjaj was unable to object on Hurrah and he was forced to release her. We have many narrations proving the great status of the Infallible Imams which is in fact part of the great status of the Prophet Mohammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. Wassalam. Mohammad al-Musawi

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(bismillah)

There has never been consensus among shi'a scholars regarding the superiority of Imams of Ahlulbayt (as) over Prophets (as).

See: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1980835

The majority opinion in the madhhab is pretty clear.

Regarding that hadith you posted, see: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1981586

Blah blah rijal.

في أمان الله

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