Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Is It True That Most Iranians Are Leaving Islam?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

How many times do I have to tell you, don't talk about Iran and Iranians when you clearly don't know what you're talking about!

Elaborate. I know what I'm talking about. I've seen a fair share of Iranians in order to pass out this judgement. Don't act as if any of this isn't true. Open your eyes and stop being so naive...

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 98
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

(bismillah) (salam)

Everyone watch this video. You don't need to watch it all. Just start at 24:45 and make sure to see the chants. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiQPEYpCbTQ I think this answers the OP's question.

So I will: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb10/IranElection_Feb10_rpt.pdf Let's not forget: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20291-iran-is-top-of-the-world-in-science-growth.html

Posted Images

  • Veteran Member

Elaborate. I know what I'm talking about. I've seen a fair share of Iranians in order to pass out this judgement. Don't act as if any of this isn't true. Open your eyes and stop being so naive...

Eveyone in Iran is becoming Christian and Zoroastrian and adopting "Sunni beliefs."

Iran is the most atheistic country in the world.

There. I've opened my eyes and seen the truth.

Just like I've opened my eyes to these other eternal truths: Sayyed Muhammad Shirazi was beaten to death by officials of the Iranian regime, Javad Zakir was poisoned by the Iranian regime (ordered by Khamenei himself), hijab in Iran was adopted as a revolutionary symbol because of French communists, Helali is in taqiyya because he's too good-looking to possibly support that butcher Khamenei, ... what else? Any other whacked out conspiracy theories that you and your ilk have thrown around?

You wouldn't know truth if it stood in front of you and did tatbeer, Hawraa. You don't know truth, and you don't know Iran.

"I've seen Iranians. I've talked to Iranians." You want a cookie?

Who was that traitor Iranian lady who worked for Fox News? Bill O'Reilly has talked to her; does that mean Bill O'Reilly knows Iran?

You probably heard a few things from your Shirazi family members, and to your Shirazi ears any Shirazi rumor sounds like a divine revelation.

And I know a lot of you may be reading and thinking "Baradar calm down, you're getting too emotional." Of course I am!

If I am ever confronted with such irresponsible rumor-mongering and carelessness amongst my fellow Shia, and I DON'T become emotional, then I would like one of you to come to me and tell me: "What's wrong with you Baradar? Are you not human? How can this not bother you? How can you not become angry at such intellectual bankruptcy among our brothers and sisters? You need to correct yourself."

But just so you know that these emotionals are not empty ravings, I will bring up one legitimate example that illustrates this DISEASE that is so prevalent amongst Iranians and multiplied 10000000000-fold amongst Shirazists (not to be confused with our respected compatriots from the beautiful ancient city of Shiraz).

This is the disease of using personal observations to form opinions on national and international issues.

You might think, "What's wrong with this? Personal observations can be a way of finding truth."

Yes of course!

But Iranian personal observations are quite different.

Example: in the summer, in Iran, energy consumption soars. To make sure that there is enough power to get through the season, there are sporadic power outages. This means that, every two days or so, you will -- in Tehran -- have approximately 1-2 hours with no power.

Now... one time, me and a cousin of mine went to the village for a few days. It was during the summer.

My cousin asked his grandfather if they had power outages in the village as well. He said "5 times a day." Then, grandson and grandfather shared a good old fashioned Iranian complain session.

We stayed for three days. There was one power outage.

Does the grandfather and grandson see any inconsistency between what they say, and what actually is? Not at all. Because their perception is shaped by what they WANT to be true. They WANT to think that they are the most lowly, suffering people in the world. If power only leaves for a few hours every few days, that conflicts with the paradigm they have created.

To put it in other words, Hawraa: how many people in Iran do you know who are CERTAIN that during Fitnah 88, the Basijis who were suppressing the greenies were brought from Lebanon? Now... How many of them do you think observed this with their own eyes?

Or how about the issue of prices? Iran has been dealing with inflation problems in recent years. What is the Iranian approach to analyzing this issue? It's this: Sohrab from Soosooli Tehran Neighborhood X notes that the eggs/meat/milk/whatever in his local store is crazy expensive, and that people who make 200 or 300 thousand tomans per month (i.e. most of the country) could not afford it. And then he thinks to himself, "How are people living???"

Does he stop to think that perhaps, PERHAPS, the store in Soosooli Tehran Neighborhood X charges such prices because the owner knows that the people in this area can afford them?

(After all, what kind of businessman charges less, when he knows his customers can and will pay more?)

Sohrab is dumb enough, dense enough, and Iranian enough to take an Akhbari approach to the price of eggs in his local store, and assume that everywhere in Iran, eggs cost exactly this same price, and therefore, that most of the country cannot afford eggs.

But guess what? The Worldwide Cost of Living Survey, ranks Tehran as third cheapest city to live in, out of over 130 major world cities! Tehran is even cheaper than New Delhi.

How is this possible? It's very simple, in fact: Tehran is not Shemran, and Niavaran is not Naziabad. Taking a holistic approach to the prices in the city, Tehran is not expensive. Rent in central and southern Tehran is peanuts, and food is cheaper there too. Places where average income is lower, prices are also lower. (You would think these rich, materialistic Iranians would understand the law of supply and demand, a pillar of the capitalistic economic doctrine which they are the biggest advocates for!)

Now, Hawraa, my suggestion to you is that instead of formulating opinions based on your flawed, biased, subjective, slanted, partial, imperfect, infallible observations, is that you take a more holistic approach.

I'm not gonna bother posting articles showing how many university students in Iran participated in i'tikaf just a month ago. I am not gonna post pictures of Friday Prayer in Tehran. I'm not gonna repost that article showing poll results which all suggest the religious and revolutionary trend amongst Iranians. I will leave this to you to find out for yourself.

My only advice to you is what I said above. Before calling on others to "open [their] eyes," you should step out of your London Shiraziland paradigm and at least acquaint yourself with what statisticians are saying!

Edited by baradar_jackson
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

I'm not gonna repost that article showing poll results which all suggest the religious and revolutionary trend amongst Iranians. I will leave this to you to find out for yourself.

So I will: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb10/IranElection_Feb10_rpt.pdf

Turning to the broader issue of legitimacy of the regime, for the general public large majorities say

they are satisfied with the current system, and the system by which authorities are elected, though less

than half say they are very satisfied. Similarly a majority express confidence in the Guardian Council,

but less than half say they have a lot of confidence. A majority approves of having a council of

religious scholars vet laws according to whether they are deemed consistent with Islam. A majority

says that the way the supreme leader is selected is consistent with democracy, and only a minority

think he has too much power.

Let's not forget: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20291-iran-is-top-of-the-world-in-science-growth.html

Link to post
Share on other sites

Eveyone in Iran is becoming Christian and Zoroastrian and adopting "Sunni beliefs."

Iran is the most atheistic country in the world.

There. I've opened my eyes and seen the truth.

Just like I've opened my eyes to these other eternal truths: Sayyed Muhammad Shirazi was beaten to death by officials of the Iranian regime, Javad Zakir was poisoned by the Iranian regime (ordered by Khamenei himself), hijab in Iran was adopted as a revolutionary symbol because of French communists, Helali is in taqiyya because he's too good-looking to possibly support that butcher Khamenei, ... what else? Any other whacked out conspiracy theories that you and your ilk have thrown around?

You wouldn't know truth if it stood in front of you and did tatbeer, Hawraa. You don't know truth, and you don't know Iran.

"I've seen Iranians. I've talked to Iranians." You want a cookie?

Who was that traitor Iranian lady who worked for Fox News? Bill O'Reilly has talked to her; does that mean Bill O'Reilly knows Iran?

You probably heard a few things from your Shirazi family members, and to your Shirazi ears any Shirazi rumor sounds like a divine revelation.

And I know a lot of you may be reading and thinking "Baradar calm down, you're getting too emotional." Of course I am!

If I am ever confronted with such irresponsible rumor-mongering and carelessness amongst my fellow Shia, and I DON'T become emotional, then I would like one of you to come to me and tell me: "What's wrong with you Baradar? Are you not human? How can this not bother you? How can you not become angry at such intellectual bankruptcy among our brothers and sisters? You need to correct yourself."

But just so you know that these emotionals are not empty ravings, I will bring up one legitimate example that illustrates this DISEASE that is so prevalent amongst Iranians and multiplied 10000000000-fold amongst Shirazists (not to be confused with our respected compatriots from the beautiful ancient city of Shiraz).

This is the disease of using personal observations to form opinions on national and international issues.

You might think, "What's wrong with this? Personal observations can be a way of finding truth."

Yes of course!

But Iranian personal observations are quite different.

Example: in the summer, in Iran, energy consumption soars. To make sure that there is enough power to get through the season, there are sporadic power outages. This means that, every two days or so, you will -- in Tehran -- have approximately 1-2 hours with no power.

Now... one time, me and a cousin of mine went to the village for a few days. It was during the summer.

My cousin asked his grandfather if they had power outages in the village as well. He said "5 times a day." Then, grandson and grandfather shared a good old fashioned Iranian complain session.

We stayed for three days. There was one power outage.

Does the grandfather and grandson see any inconsistency between what they say, and what actually is? Not at all. Because their perception is shaped by what they WANT to be true. They WANT to think that they are the most lowly, suffering people in the world. If power only leaves for a few hours every few days, that conflicts with the paradigm they have created.

To put it in other words, Hawraa: how many people in Iran do you know who are CERTAIN that during Fitnah 88, the Basijis who were suppressing the greenies were brought from Lebanon? Now... How many of them do you think observed this with their own eyes?

Or how about the issue of prices? Iran has been dealing with inflation problems in recent years. What is the Iranian approach to analyzing this issue? It's this: Sohrab from Soosooli Tehran Neighborhood X notes that the eggs/meat/milk/whatever in his local store is crazy expensive, and that people who make 200 or 300 thousand tomans per month (i.e. most of the country) could not afford it. And then he thinks to himself, "How are people living???"

Does he stop to think that perhaps, PERHAPS, the store in Soosooli Tehran Neighborhood X charges such prices because the owner knows that the people in this area can afford them?

(After all, what kind of businessman charges less, when he knows his customers can and will pay more?)

Sohrab is dumb enough, dense enough, and Iranian enough to take an Akhbari approach to the price of eggs in his local store, and assume that everywhere in Iran, eggs cost exactly this same price, and therefore, that most of the country cannot afford eggs.

But guess what? The Worldwide Cost of Living Survey, ranks Tehran as third cheapest city to live in, out of over 130 major world cities! Tehran is even cheaper than New Delhi.

How is this possible? It's very simple, in fact: Tehran is not Shemran, and Niavaran is not Naziabad. Taking a holistic approach to the prices in the city, Tehran is not expensive. Rent in central and southern Tehran is peanuts, and food is cheaper there too. Places where average income is lower, prices are also lower. (You would think these rich, materialistic Iranians would understand the law of supply and demand, a pillar of the capitalistic economic doctrine which they are the biggest advocates for!)

Now, Hawraa, my suggestion to you is that instead of formulating opinions based on your flawed, biased, subjective, slanted, partial, imperfect, infallible observations, is that you take a more holistic approach.

I'm not gonna bother posting articles showing how many university students in Iran participated in i'tikaf just a month ago. I am not gonna post pictures of Friday Prayer in Tehran. I'm not gonna repost that article showing poll results which all suggest the religious and revolutionary trend amongst Iranians. I will leave this to you to find out for yourself.

My only advice to you is what I said above. Before calling on others to "open [their] eyes," you should step out of your London Shiraziland paradigm and at least acquaint yourself with what statisticians are saying!

Golden post... Needs to be echoed EVERY DAMN WHERE!!!!@#@$$

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Baradar Jackson, I never implied that it was the Iranians in Iran becoming Christians etc and adopting Sunni beliefs. Please re read what I wrote. As for the other sections of your post, I'll answer your questions in my upcoming thread.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

Frankly, i dont and never give a penny to what happened with iranian people. Are they becoming christians, jews, hindus, atheist...these isnt my business.

From non-iranian perspective (which is me), i take wholistic approach regarding iran and i think the govt does faces certain problems but as far as i see its natural one and not something that endanger their ideology.

Link to post
Share on other sites

we can be Emus and put our head in the sand but in reality a huge proportion of the iranian and iraqi and many other nations are not into islam at all

i have seen the worse hatred towards islam from some iranians and Iraqis

Racism is Also rampant everywhere even amongst people who still claim to uphold islam

the Aryan idea is the same as the Nazi ideology and yes majority of the people are racist and they worship the land you can ask them and they will admit it

the Islamic project is a unity project but the racist project is a segregation project were each race tries to rise above the other race.

lately some iranians have been burning quraans and showing it on youtube under the excuse that the islamic government oppressed the people.

most of the people who defend or offend iran are driven by emotions and or secterianism. .. we need to look at facts.... when the power keeps going out in a country that has the 2nd largest gas reserve in the world doesn't that say alot ?

when there is no proper system to collect rubbsih

rampant bribery,,, my father had to travel maybe 30 times to Tehran just to get one simple application done and they wouldn't do it unless he pays the bribe,,, he ended up paying the bribe to get it done.

when citizenship laws are so unislamic and require the "Hasr alwaratha" which is investigating to make sure that you are 9 generation iranian pure aryan nazi blood while you have countries like Australia which are so much more islamic in this aspect and they grant the citizenship to any migrant after 2 years regardless of his race.

people with no citizenship have no right to get married or go to school or buy a house (at the time that i lived there 1990-1995)

lots and lots of anti islamic laws in the islamic republic,,,, should we be emues and turn a blind eye to them?

of course we should support the islamic project against the zionist project but it doesn't mean we forgo our ideology for something which is just islamic by name and not fully islamic in essence,

Edited by alimohamad40
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Before talking about how religious "Iranians" are, it might be wise to say if you are talking about people living in Iran or ethnic Persians living in the West. If I understand correctly Baradar Jackson is talking about the latter and Hawraa the former, though I might be wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Baradar Jackson, I never implied that it was the Iranians in Iran becoming Christians etc and adopting Sunni beliefs. Please re read what I wrote. As for the other sections of your post, I'll answer your questions in my upcoming thread.

Yes, I thought the first time you meant the diaspora Iranians ,not the local ones in Iran :)

Well as for them, I don't know about the UK, but in the U.S. the popularity typically goes Christians, Bahais, then anything after that.

Christian converts are the largest (they use it to network with lots of people for their own advantages). The Bahai groups have a

fair number as well. I don't know how strong their networks are compared to the Christian groups, but they seem more in it

because they truly are convinced of Bahaism unlike the Christians who are in it solely for the advantages.

However, I have never ever seen an Iranian Shiite abandon his/her faith and adopt the Sunni schools of thought.

The only Farsi speaking individuals that go to those Sunni mosques are Afghan Pashtuns and Tajiks, as well as

Iranians who probably could not find a Shiite mosque in their vicinity (the exception).

I think the best thing is for these diaspora Iranians to choose their own path, whatever it may be.

We might not agree with their views, but as long as they don't impose their hate down our throats,

we should not pay attention to them and just live life normally.

Before talking about how religious "Iranians" are, it might be wise to say if you are talking about people living in Iran or ethnic Persians living in the West. If I understand correctly Baradar Jackson is talking about the latter and Hawraa the former, though I might be wrong.

I think it was the other way around lol.

She was referring to Iranians in the West that hate Islam and are converting to Christianity, Bahaism, Zoroastrianism, and other faiths.

But overall, the majority of them at least IMHO are just atheists or secular Iranians that just want a Westernized life.

I've also seen in the diaspora some funny types lol. Take for example, there are women that may dress pretty skimpy in Islamic standards,

they may gamble, smoke etc. but I've also seen them do their namaz every single day. Yes, half are probably monarchists lol, but

since a lot of them had parents who prayed and held religious beliefs, some of these beliefs are still held with them. They can't

let them go because they feel its part of their life.

People are interesting lol.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the Iranians who traveled from the Islamic Republic of Iran to the West, were not religious in Iran either. Its not like they where religious than became atheists later .. Hawraa29 had loved it, and therefore had a reason to complain about Imam Khomeine and the whole revolution. "This revolution change Iranians from being Muslims to kaffir". It's just nonsense. The Iranians who escape from islamic Iran are something we call" cultural Muslims ". when they finally understood that they can no longer switch between being religious and not religious, than they fled from Iran.

There are now many politicians in european countries who are surprised to see (according to various stats) that soo many Iranians go back to Iran every year. Since they have always believed that "Khomeini's regime" was after them. Many politicians (Iranian atheist politicians) believe that the Iranians should not travel back to Iran, since they were granted asylum of the reason that they were political refugees........

And regarding the iranian muslims who convert to other religions. It is important to emphasize that the only reason they feel that zorostraism is the "right" religion, is because the prophet is a åersian, also the whole religion is a "pure persian religion". You know, like a jew.

Wallah, I say is its better that they becomed(true) zoroastrians, it is much better then to be a kaffir they are in the west. Its very sad.

Edited by Nima
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I think the general point here is that you see what you expect to see.

I have noticed that many Iranians coming back to the West after a brief summer visit tend to go off about how 'irreligious' Iranians have become. However, if you notice, these Iranians in the West, when visiting Iran, tend to go to where their families are which are generally located in northern Tehran. These people usually spend most their time there. In fact, even their outings generally involve rich gherti areas like Tajrish etc. At best, they briefly visit other touristic areas in Iran (like places Shiraz, Esfahan, Kish) which are also usually filled with Western Iranians and Northern Tehranis. So in this sense their view is actually quite skewed and not reflective of the majority of Iranians.

Personally (and as a full-blooded Iranian), I'm not a supporter of Ahmadinejad (I'd actually prefer it if people like Ali Akbar Velayati or Ahmad Khatami were in power) but I have witnessed people in the villages and rural areas tend to be religious in the general sense and do support AN. So now imagine if West-residing Iranians would restrict themselves to those areas when visiting Iran, they'd probably think they're in a different country (and to their sorrow, these people are the majority of the country, not those metrosexuals up in the north).

In fact my wife was in Tehran during Muharram. She was attending Muhammad Ali Ansari's lectures (the famous mufassir) which totaled to about 5000+ people attending (the people were actually sitting in the streets because there was no room inside). This was a gathering for only ONE lecturer. Allah knows how many other people attended in other places.

As such, the number of those extreme Iranians are as thin as their plucked eye-brows (referring to the so-called "males" over there).

As for people joining the basji for benefits, it is ridiculous to assume that most of them are in there for the benefits. Although there are some (and I have met a small number of them), most of them are there for ideological reasons. You would know this if you attended their meetings and gatherings. Being part of that is not a joke, you essentially have to change the way you dress, stop shaving, attend regular meetings etc. Essentially, any aspect of your "bad" life must be kept secret - all of this for really negligible benefits. You might as well just put your efforts into building connections to get your way around (which is what most of these irreligious people do anyways).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Sure. It is similar in the US. If you go to uptown New York you will find a very liberal population and very little serious religion. If you go the rural Oklahoma it is a whole different universe.

The Basji sound to the me like the US national guard, in some ways, but less rewarded since the US National Guard gives substantial scholarships. Most people don't join it just because of patriotism but they do tend to start out that way and being NG members reinforces and strengthens that. Generally a hardcore anti-US liberal won't join. It is not a coincidence that the US armed forces are mostly drawn from the rural South and West, not the hippies in New England. I imagine it works the same way in Iran. Saying the social prestige and materiel incentives don't matter is probably putting it a little high, but it reinforces and draws from an existing belief, it doesn't create support from thin air.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Most of the Iranians who traveled from the Islamic Republic of Iran to the West, were not religious in Iran either. Its not like they where religious than became atheists later .. Hawraa29 had loved it, and therefore had a reason to complain about Imam Khomeine and the whole revolution.

Nice generalization. Ofcourse it's totally wrong. Besides those who were against the Revolution, religious folks left for better opportunities elsewhere also, because there were major changes in the environment. There were variety of reasons which included businesses being effected, rule changes, uncertainty, etc. Many Khomeini supporters left also, not just to the West, but elsewhere to the Middle East/Asia.

And don't assume if someone doesn't support the Revolution he/she is not religious.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Nice generalization. Ofcourse it's totally wrong. Besides those who were against the Revolution, religious folks left for better opportunities elsewhere also, because there were major changes in the environment. There were variety of reasons which included businesses being effected, rule changes, uncertainty, etc. Many Khomeini supporters left also, not just to the West, but elsewhere to the Middle East/Asia.

And don't assume if someone doesn't support the Revolution he/she is not religious.

Some did but they are a very small minority compared to the irreligious ones. So the argument still stands.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Dunno about the Iranians within Iran, but all the ones that I've ever met here aren't so religious. Most of them will acknowledge the fact they are Muslim, but nothing more.

Baradar Jackson, I never implied that it was the Iranians in Iran becoming Christians etc and adopting Sunni beliefs. Please re read what I wrote. As for the other sections of your post, I'll answer your questions in my upcoming thread.

Gosh what is this thread. The suspense is killing me Hawraa :P

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Some did but they are a very small minority compared to the irreligious ones. So the argument still stands.

Argument doesn't stand when someone claims 'most were not religious'. Many religious folks left cause of not agreeing with the 'politcal' changes or personal reasons. Not all were Shah lovers.

"Iran Times estimated that one out of every three (5,000) physicians and dentists left after the revolution."

"According to the Ministry of Culture and Higher Education, right before the revolution and subsequent closure of all the universities in 1980, there were 16,222 professors teaching in Iran's higher education institutions. When the universities reopened in 1982, this figure had plummeted to 9,042."

http://www.migration...play.cfm?ID=424

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Argument doesn't stand when someone claims 'most were not religious'. Many religious folks left cause of not agreeing with the 'politcal' changes or personal reasons. Not all were Shah lovers.

"Iran Times estimated that one out of every three (5,000) physicians and dentists left after the revolution."

"According to the Ministry of Culture and Higher Education, right before the revolution and subsequent closure of all the universities in 1980, there were 16,222 professors teaching in Iran's higher education institutions. When the universities reopened in 1982, this figure had plummeted to 9,042."

http://www.migration...play.cfm?ID=424

You don't have to be a Shah-lover to be irreligious. Quite a large number of these people were Marxists who can still be observed today across Europe and Canada. You can clearly see the irreligiosity among the Shah-era generation here in the West who were like this from the get go. The US itself is home to over a million Iranians, the majority of which came during or right after the revolution. The fact that there was a significant lack of Iranian Islamic centers within the first 10 to 20 years after the revolution in the West, and the tiny number of Iranians who attended these centers is testimony to what some of the brothers here are arguing for.

This state of course is much worse nowadays.

Here are some stats:

77% of Iranians, according to a Gallup poll see that the Shariah should play a role in Iran's legislation. Compare this to Turkey (a government which has been secular for almost a century now) which stands at 33%.

http://www.gallup.co...ews-sharia.aspx

In a wider, much more sophisticated study conducted on Iran by WorldPublicOpinion,

62% of Iranians believe that religious scholars should have the power to overrun laws that are contrary to Islam (p. 15)

61% believe that the constitution gives the Supreme Leader (May Allah Subhanahu Ta`ala prolong his blessed life) the necessary amount of power, and 6% believe it does not give him the necessary amount which makes it 67%. This is vs. 17% who believe the constitution gives him too much power (p. 16)

85% are satisfied with the current regime (49% very satisfied + 36% somewhat satisfied), (p. 14). This number dropped a bit after the election, but it stabilized after, given the de facto death of the green movement and much of its legitimacy and propaganda.

See: http://www.worldpubl...n_Feb10_rpt.pdf

Now let's see how the numbers would look like if these studies were conducted among the Iranian diaspora living in the West.

So please, do some research and ponder a bit before you post things on this board.

"Iran Times estimated that one out of every three (5,000) physicians and dentists left after the revolution."

"According to the Ministry of Culture and Higher Education, right before the revolution and subsequent closure of all the universities in 1980, there were 16,222 professors teaching in Iran's higher education institutions. When the universities reopened in 1982, this figure had plummeted to 9,042."

http://www.migration...play.cfm?ID=424

And your point with this is.... ??

Edited by Hannibal
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Dunno about the Iranians within Iran, but all the ones that I've ever met here aren't so religious. Most of them will acknowledge the fact they are Muslim, but nothing more.

Gosh what is this thread. The suspense is killing me Hawraa :P

Iran itself has a mix of everything quite possible with Muslims of all sorts ruling the none-Muslims.

But where I live in California, you either get monarchist supporters or monarchist sympathizers as AT LEAST half the diaspora here.

Supporters are obvious as to what they are. Sympathizers are those that lived mediocre lives in Iran during the shah's time, but these poor fools support Iran's old monarchy on the sole basis that it was secular, therefore, >>>> than IRI. Not because they actually even like monarchy lol, only because it was anti-Islamic and westernized.

I heard most of the conservative Muslims outside of Iran live in the UK (that's not to say that other Iranians groups don't live there). I guess this would make plenty of sense given the influence that Muslims have in the UK. Most of the MKO supporters live in France and a portion of them also live in the UK. In the U.S. the monarchists and the monarchist sympathizers are still pretty present. You get variations in them like Armenians, Jews, Christian convert Iranians, Bahais, Iranian opportunists, and many more.

But yeah, those Christian converts, did not convert because they hated Islam and were convinced that Christianity was the ultimate religion. In fact, they convert for opportunistic reasons. When you join churches and other types of organizations, you get access to all kinds of things. Anything ranging from as little as food, income support, to anything as large as jobs, careers, scholarships etc.

The only thing I have never heard of is an Iranian converting to Sunni Islam lol. This is bogus, never seen nor heard of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
You don't have to be a Shah-lover to be irreligious.

And you don't have to be a Revolution-lover to be religious.

Quite a large number of these people were Marxists who can still be observed today across Europe and Canada. You can clearly see the irreligiosity among the Shah-era generation here in the West who were like this from the get go. The US itself is home to over a million Iranians, the majority of which came during or right after the revolution. The fact that there was a significant lack of Iranian Islamic centers within the first 10 to 20 years after the revolution in the West, and the tiny number of Iranians who attended these centers is testimony to what some of the brothers here are arguing for.

This state of course is much worse nowadays.

Here are some stats:

77% of Iranians, according to a Gallup poll see that the Shariah should play a role in Iran's legislation. Compare this to Turkey (a government which has been secular for almost a century now) which stands at 33%.

http://www.gallup.co...ews-sharia.aspx

In a wider, much more sophisticated study conducted on Iran by WorldPublicOpinion,

62% of Iranians believe that religious scholars should have the power to overrun laws that are contrary to Islam (p. 15)

61% believe that the constitution gives the Supreme Leader (May Allah Subhanahu Ta`ala prolong his blessed life) the necessary amount of power, and 6% believe it does not give him the necessary amount which makes it 67%. This is vs. 17% who believe the constitution gives him too much power (p. 16)

85% are satisfied with the current regime (49% very satisfied + 36% somewhat satisfied), (p. 14). This number dropped a bit after the election, but it stabilized after, given the de facto death of the green movement and much of its legitimacy and propaganda.

See: http://www.worldpubl...n_Feb10_rpt.pdf

Now let's see how the numbers would look like if these studies were conducted among the Iranian diaspora living in the West.

So please, do some research and ponder a bit before you post things on this board.

We are talking about the Iranis who left Iran, not the ones who are residing in Iran, hence your post irrelevant.

Make sure you stick with the topic before you post.

And your point with this is.... ??

A very telling stat that gives you a glimpse of the migration that occurred from 2 vital professions (Professors/Teachers and Physicians).

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
But yeah, those Christian converts, did not convert because they hated Islam and were convinced that Christianity was the ultimate religion. In fact, they convert for opportunistic reasons. When you join churches and other types of organizations, you get access to all kinds of things. Anything ranging from as little as food, income support, to anything as large as jobs, careers, scholarships etc.

I think you are right on some small scale. However, this is one issue that I have been quite interested in given that a few of my mother's friends have converted, in addition to two distant family members. This is aside the number of others that I have so met so far across Canada and the US (specifically California). Based on my observations, they tend to have the following characteristics in common;

1) Female

2) They are mid-aged (40+)

3) Depressed

4) Generally overweight and look terrible (i.e. they have turkey-necks, makes it worse with the makeup etc.), or have some kind of physical sickness.

5) Lonely

6) Divorced, or have bad relationships with their husbands.

7) Uneducated

8) Lazy

9) Love to watch those LA Shahi channels and dance to their cheezy music videos.

10) They have an inferiority complex in terms of being Iranian as they see it as being backward. They are ashamed of it and worship the White West. This is more than apparent in how they try to incorporate English words into their Persian, despite the fact that their English is embarrassingly terrible esp given the fact that they have been in the West for 20+ years.

As a result, they tend to convert to Evangelical Christianity. Why? Because they have lonely depressed lives. Joining an evangelical group gives their meaningless lives meaning, and it allows them to join regular groups where they can circle around with women who have similar problems, sing songs and clap hands (something they love to do as per #9, but haram in Islam).

Note that with characteristics #4 (fat) and #8 (lazy) they don't want a religion where they have to fast and do their prayers, let alone fajr prayer. Additionally, they don't have to wear hijab...something they really hate because they can't show off their newly colored hair in public (that's one of their hobbies which they do regularly) nor can they keep their make-up and nail-polish (they literally can't live without that!) as it is haram to wear in public, and you need to take it off in an hour or two anyways as you need to make wudu for prayers.

Hence adhering to a religious world view where these rules are not there and most of what is required is a simple belief (accept Jesus as your lord and savior) is easy and attractive to them. This is in addition to adopting the religion of White Westerners, which helps them with their inferiority complex as per #10.

There is also a psycho-sexual component to this as well. Remember most of these women are overweight, or have some physical sickness. Connected to this is that they have lost their attractiveness, have bad relationships with their husbands who are no longer attracted to them (most these marriages end up in divorce anyways where the husband has cheated on her with white women several times). As a result, they crave the time of their youth where they had male attention. What evangelical Christianity offers is that there is a handsome blond man (Jesus) who loves you. Additionally, these evangelical Iranian groups tend to be led by male pastors who lavish these women with attention (ah yes, male attention!) which is something they crave.

So why not convert?

And you don't have to be a Revolution-lover to be religious.

Most (not all) people who are pro-government consider themselves Muslim and have respect for Islam at the most basic level. That's something self-evident. Regardless, I'm glad you stopped pursuing your Shahi point.</p>

We are talking about the Iranis who left Iran, not the ones who are residing in Iran, hence your post irrelevant.

Make sure you stick with the topic before you post.

No, if you recall, the current discussion is about Iranians leaving Islam and how this is not true as the Iranian diaspora (who have left Islam) is not reflective of the majority of Iranians who happen to be in Iran (and not the West).

A very telling stat that gives you a glimpse of the migration that occurred from 2 vital professions (Professors/Teachers and Physicians).

What does that have to do with Iranians leaving Islam?

Edited by Hannibal
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
1) Female

2) They are mid-aged (40+)

3) Depressed

4) Generally overweight and look terrible (i.e. they have turkey-necks, makes it worse with the makeup etc.), or have some kind of physical sickness.

5) Lonely

6) Divorced, or have bad relationships with their husbands.

7) Uneducated

8) Lazy

9) Love to watch those LA Shahi channels and dance to their cheezy music videos.

10) They have an inferiority complex in terms of being Iranian as they see it as being backward. They are ashamed of it and worship the White West. This is more than apparent in how they try to incorporate English words into their Persian, despite the fact that their English is embarrassingly terrible esp given the fact that they have been in the West for 20+ years.

^

Spot ON.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Most (not all) people who are pro-government consider themselves Muslim and have respect for Islam at the most basic level. That's something self-evident. Regardless, I'm glad you stopped pursuing your Shahi point.</p>

Such tunnel vision. I can careless about the puppet Shah. But it's obvious and pathetic that you equate people who are not pro-revolution as a Shah-lovers/irreligious.

No, if you recall, the current discussion is about Iranians leaving Islam and how this is not true as the Iranian diaspora (who have left Islam) is not reflective of the majority of Iranians who happen to be in Iran (and not the West).

The specific point I made and which you argued against is the generalization/assumption that most who left were irreligious. I've never mentioned anything about the Iranians living in Iran currently.

You should re-read the posts again.

What does that have to do with Iranians leaving Islam?

Many educated/learned people left Iran when the Revolution occurred. Pointing out that there were other reasons that caused people to leave, not just because they were Shah lovers/irreligious.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Such tunnel vision. I can careless about the puppet Shah. But it's obvious and pathetic that you equate people who are not pro-revolution as a Shah-lovers/irreligious.

Make the proper distinction, I said majority irreligious, not majority shah supporters so don't clog them up. That itself is empirically verifiable.

The specific point I made and which you argued against is the generalization/assumption that most who left were irreligious. I've never mentioned anything about the Iranians living in Iran currently.

You should re-read the posts again.

You should read the title of the thread, I was posting in accordance with that. Also, yes most are irreligious in the West, that is something empirically verifiable by both pro and anti gov people.

Given that, it is a proper indicator as to the type of people who left the country.

Many educated/learned people left Iran when the Revolution occurred. Pointing out that there were other reasons that caused people to leave, not just because they were Shah lovers/irreligious.

No one is denying that economic factors were irrelevant, however what we are discussing is the specific world views people held when they left Iran. My own family left Iran for economic reasons, but that is only one of many factors among which world views played an essential role.

Edited by Hannibal
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Bismillah,

I just want to add that this will be my last post on this thread (unless something new comes up which I think I should respond to). As such, thank you Ugly Jinn for the discussion. I sincerely apologize if I said anything rude or offended you in any way, insha'Allah you can forgive me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Firstly, people who leave Iran generally do so for ideological reasons. These people are generally among the economic elite. Their reason for leaving is that they cannot stand to live under an Islamic government.

This is the first thing that must be taken into consideration. They cannot be seen as representative of Iranians in Iran, because they are the ones who leave Iran for this specific reason.

The second thing that must considered is that, even among Iranians abroad, there are plenty of mo'mineen. You just don't hear about them as much because they don't run their mouths as much as the secularists, they don't get invited to political TV shows, and they don't have lobbies in Washington.

If you want to see how most Iranians feel, look at this link: http://www.worldpubl...n_Feb10_rpt.pdf

This could be true but it could also be misleading. It may look like it was the "economic elite" were fleeing Iran but they were the only ones with the means to emigrate. It is just as likely that thousands more wanted to leave but did not have the wherewithall to do it. The belief that only the "economic elite" wanted to leave could be the result of making a false assumption based on a little visible evidence.

At the end of the Cuban revolution many well to do Cubas fled to the US, which included doctors, scholars and people from many professions. They could easily afford the airfare. If Cuba was thousands of miles away instead of ninety the situation could also have been misread to say only the elites came to America. However since there is ninety miles of sea between the two Cubans have piled into anything that would float to get here.

I hope my point is understood and considered before I am attacked for it.

post-12376-0-69252100-1317330888.jpg post-12376-0-75552700-1317330929.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

This could be true but it could also be misleading. It may look like it was the "economic elite" were fleeing Iran but they were the only ones with the means to emigrate. It is just as likely that thousands more wanted to leave but did not have the wherewithall to do it. The belief that only the "economic elite" wanted to leave could be the result of making a false assumption based on a little visible evidence.

At the end of the Cuban revolution many well to do Cubas fled to the US, which included doctors, scholars and people from many professions. They could easily afford the airfare. If Cuba was thousands of miles away instead of ninety the situation could also have been misread to say only the elites came to America. However since there is ninety miles of sea between the two Cubans have piled into anything that would float to get here.

I hope my point is understood and considered before I am attacked for it.

post-12376-0-69252100-1317330888.jpg post-12376-0-75552700-1317330929.jpg

The typical Western imperialist propaganda of trying to claim their imperial "greatness" by boasting that people "come here". Guess what Amerikkka is rich from all its imperialist crimes and people unfortunately tend to be greedy aholes, that don't care about anything but being rich and living a luxurious life with a big home, big screen TV, and nice cars; while not caring about so-called "Third World" solidarity (as long as they themselves are rich and comfortable). http://revcom.us/a/189/BA_quotes-en.html

Quote- Now I can just hear these reactionary fools saying “well Bob, answer this. If this country is so terrible, why do people come here from all over the world? Why are so many people trying to get in, not to get out?”... Why? I’ll tell you why. Because you have f-----up the rest of the world even worse than what you have done in this country. You have made it impossible for many people to live in their own countries as part of gaining your riches and power.

end quote.

This becomes even clearer as if someone lives in Iran the imperialist Amerikkkans having sanctions against the entire country, much like the US imperialists have done to Cuba (with a complete embargo) for the last 60 years.

Lift_Cuba_embargo_by_Latuff2.jpg

Amerikkka is the world Empire (from it and Europe's legacy of colonialism, imperialism, slavery, and genocide) that is wealthy from all its imperialist crimes, so if Amerikkka is attacking someone with economic sanctions and threats of course a so-called "third world" nation will struggle to stand up to this imperialist oppression!

http://www.chowk.com/Views/Education/WESTERN-IMPERIALISM-Its-Causes-and-Its-Impact-on-the-World

Quote-

The Riches of the World Must Flow West...At All Costs

The transfer of wealth still continues from the neo-colonies to the West in the form of raw materials, agricultural products, cash reciepts from the sales of weapons and over-priced manufactured goods, looted wealth by puppet regimes and corrupt elites, and from the brain drain of what little professionals these under-developed countries could produce from their limited capital resources. The prices of the commodities and raw materials produced by these countries are determined by the West. While the manufactured and capital goods, which are produced by the West, and which are needed desperately by the neo-colonial, so called third-world countries to develop, are sold at the premium prices, also determined by the West. The disparaties between these neo-colonists and neo-colonial countries, also sometimes referred to as Haves and Have Nots, are widening with every passing year.

end quote.

As for Iran, it is the secular elite minority that usual leaves. And despite the US imperialist threats and sanctions, the Islamic Republic of Iran is growing stronger and stronger; insha'Allah.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18546-iran-showing-fastest-scientific-growth-of-any-country.html "Iran showing fastest scientific growth of any country"

from 2010

http://hasnain.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/irans-science-progress-fastest-in-world-eric-archambault%E2%80%99s-report-of-science-metrix-a-data-analysis-company-in-montreal-canada/ Iran's science progress fastest in world: analysis from Montreal, Canada

Quote- Despite more than thirty years of Western-imposed sanctions, Iran has made great strides in different sectors, including aerospace, nuclear science, medical development, as well as stem cell and cloning research.

end quote.

In just one region for you:

us-imperialism-latuff-latin-america-racism.jpg

http://www.ecofuture.org/pk/pkar9506.html

Quote-

Is our dream a nightmare for others?

Percentage of the word's population comprised of Americans: 5%

Percentage of the world's resources consumed by Americans: 30% [38]

end quote.

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-10-12/us/9910_12_population.cosumption_1_global-population-worlds-scientists?_s=PM:US Worlds wealthiest 16 percent uses 80 percent of natural resources

Greedy people (and greedy minority get it) want the "American dream" but this is only possible if a small minority oppresses the majority of the world and forces this majority of the world's population to live in misery and poverty, while the rich usurp the resources of the world and continue to destroy the planet (global warming, etc).

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-01-19/world/eco.globalwarmingsurvey_1_global-warming-climate-science-human-activity?_s=PM:WORLD

global-warming2.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

Not money per se, leads to opportunities to make money (ex. promotion, welfare subsidies, etc.), compared to what opportunities are out there.

If you dig a little deeper, most join are lower-middle class. The benefits outweigh most opportunities that exists, some may get lucky. Upper and upper-middle class youths rarely join. Youth unemployment is 20%+, and the most of the ones that do get a job are low paying. Suicide rates are soaring.

It's not always black and white. :rolleyes:

You do realize that is the makeup demographics of most armies right? Rich people have more opportunities, world wide, than the poor, so why would they put themselves in harms way? Even if they believed in the cause, they would find it more prudent to donate and buy influence than do some dirty work. So I don't think your comparison is anything special or the point you are trying to make is anything unique to Iran.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
You do realize that is the makeup demographics of most armies right? Rich people have more opportunities, world wide, than the poor, so why would they put themselves in harms way? Even if they believed in the cause, they would find it more prudent to donate and buy influence than do some dirty work. So I don't think your comparison is anything special or the point you are trying to make is anything unique to Iran.

You missed the point. The point is that many join for the benefits because of the lack of opportunities that exist, and not because they believe in the cause.

And your example supports my point. Many posters were bragging that people join because they believe in the cause, if that's the case then coming from a upper/middle class family should be a non-issue.

If Iran has more jobs/opportunities then you will see a significant drop in recruitment. So this "they all join because they believe in a cause" is BS.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
Link to post
Share on other sites

"Quite a large number of these people were Marxists who can still be observed today across Europe and Canada. You can clearly see the irreligiosity among the Shah-era generation here in the West who were like this from the get go. The US itself is home to over a million Iranians, the majority of which came during or right after the revolution. The fact that there was a significant lack of Iranian Islamic centers within the first 10 to 20 years after the revolution in the West, and the tiny number of Iranians who attended these centers is testimony to what some of the brothers here are arguing for. "

I think the low participation began from a fear of being visible to the Iranian killers who murdered intellectuals overseas.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

The typical Western imperialist propaganda of trying to claim their imperial "greatness" by boasting that people "come here". Guess what Amerikkka is rich from all its imperialist crimes and people unfortunately tend to be greedy aholes, that don't care about anything but being rich and living a luxurious life with a big home, big screen TV, and nice cars; while not caring about so-called "Third World" solidarity (as long as they themselves are rich and comfortable). http://revcom.us/a/1..._quotes-en.html

Quote- Now I can just hear these reactionary fools saying “well Bob, answer this. If this country is so terrible, why do people come here from all over the world? Why are so many people trying to get in, not to get out?”... Why? I’ll tell you why. Because you have f-----up the rest of the world even worse than what you have done in this country. You have made it impossible for many people to live in their own countries as part of gaining your riches and power.

end quote.

This becomes even clearer as if someone lives in Iran the imperialist Amerikkkans having sanctions against the entire country, much like the US imperialists have done to Cuba (with a complete embargo) for the last 60 years.

Lift_Cuba_embargo_by_Latuff2.jpg

Amerikkka is the world Empire (from it and Europe's legacy of colonialism, imperialism, slavery, and genocide) that is wealthy from all its imperialist crimes, so if Amerikkka is attacking someone with economic sanctions and threats of course a so-called "third world" nation will struggle to stand up to this imperialist oppression!

http://www.chowk.com...ct-on-the-World

Quote-

The Riches of the World Must Flow West...At All Costs

The transfer of wealth still continues from the neo-colonies to the West in the form of raw materials, agricultural products, cash reciepts from the sales of weapons and over-priced manufactured goods, looted wealth by puppet regimes and corrupt elites, and from the brain drain of what little professionals these under-developed countries could produce from their limited capital resources. The prices of the commodities and raw materials produced by these countries are determined by the West. While the manufactured and capital goods, which are produced by the West, and which are needed desperately by the neo-colonial, so called third-world countries to develop, are sold at the premium prices, also determined by the West. The disparaties between these neo-colonists and neo-colonial countries, also sometimes referred to as Haves and Have Nots, are widening with every passing year.

end quote.

As for Iran, it is the secular elite minority that usual leaves. And despite the US imperialist threats and sanctions, the Islamic Republic of Iran is growing stronger and stronger; insha'Allah.

http://www.newscient...ny-country.html "Iran showing fastest scientific growth of any country"

from 2010

http://hasnain.wordp...ontreal-canada/ Iran's science progress fastest in world: analysis from Montreal, Canada

Quote- Despite more than thirty years of Western-imposed sanctions, Iran has made great strides in different sectors, including aerospace, nuclear science, medical development, as well as stem cell and cloning research.

end quote.

In just one region for you:

us-imperialism-latuff-latin-america-racism.jpg

http://www.ecofuture...k/pkar9506.html

Quote-

Is our dream a nightmare for others?

Percentage of the word's population comprised of Americans: 5%

Percentage of the world's resources consumed by Americans: 30% [38]

end quote.

http://articles.cnn....ntists?_s=PM:US Worlds wealthiest 16 percent uses 80 percent of natural resources

Greedy people (and greedy minority get it) want the "American dream" but this is only possible if a small minority oppresses the majority of the world and forces this majority of the world's population to live in misery and poverty, while the rich usurp the resources of the world and continue to destroy the planet (global warming, etc).

http://articles.cnn....ity?_s=PM:WORLD

global-warming2.jpg

Geez, does every post of yours have to be a powerpoint presentation?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Ive heard that Many people of Persian descent outside of Iran are leaving Islam due to the supposed oppression in the Islamic republic, and are turning to nationalistic Iranian views that is drawn from an increasingly pro-Aryan and Anti- Arab mindset, or is this just propaganda from a minority of Iranians. Some of them even claim that the majority of Iranians are not even Muslim anymore!

The Iranian nationalists also claim that the Islamic revolution was forced on them and is the fault of the Arabs, and they made the corrupt Shah Pahllavis as their hero. But isnt that ignoring the fact that during the time of the revolution it was the Iranian people that were fed up with the Shah and wholeheartedly supported the Ayatollah Khomeini. The nationalists like to blame everything that has gone wrong with Iran on Islam and the Arabs.

Its all true an now there gonna vote Mousavi! its horrible the Guys an agent from USA he promised the iranis he will give them what they want an now they really are dying FOR him!

Edited by 110FatimaBintulHuda
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Its all true an now there gonna vote Mousavi! its horrible the Guys an agent from USA he promised the iranis he will give them what they want an now they really are dying FOR him!

I don't think Mousavi is going to run again. They were claiming Khatami to show up again. But I really don't know who will represent the opposition.

They might shoot for a new face to trick the conservative rural population (the bulk of the voters).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Mousavi is going to run again. They were claiming Khatami to show up again. But I really don't know who will represent the opposition.

They might shoot for a new face to trick the conservative rural population (the bulk of the voters).

Whatever the case the Iranian government and people need to stand strong as the Zionists and the Zionist AIPAC controlled US regime (Zionist Occupied Government, ZOG) will certainly try to attack and destabilize Iran again. Debate and some honest disagreements are one thing but if someone is working with the Zio-Amerikkkan enemy and actively trying to undermine and sabotage the Islamic Republic system they must be stopped by any means necessary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/2218623/George-W-Bush-raised-400-million-for-action-against-Iran.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1552784/Bush-sanctions-black-ops-against-Iran.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRwUZ-u6KFo

But the Iranian government and people will stand strong against such threats, insha'Allah.

Photo of a huge rally in Iran supporting the Islamic Republic.

1194172-3x2-340x227.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...