Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
KhaledAlArabi

Khomeini Guiding Shia Believers?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

(bismillah)

(salam)

I have noticed the huge amount of respect that Shia have to Khomeini. While researching some of the stuff he wrote in his famous books, I found a couple of paragraphs which a normal person with common sense would stop and think... I will not mention them all now..

But this one really caught my attention.

As he claims, this story took place in the beginning of creation.. which he witnessed :donno: ??

What is narrated about Gabriel in the beginning of creation when Allah had asked him (Gabriel) several times "Who am I and who are You!?". And every time he answered: " You are you and I am I". Then Allah burns him for being too proud and sends him away from the nearest heavens until the saviour of souls appeared in the world of lights and ghosts. The Mawla of the two universes and the Imam of the Thaqalayn, our Mawla Ali bin abi Talib alaihi salam . Then Ali taught Gabriel to say in the answer: "You are the Great King and I am the humble slave" and when he said it he was saved from the fires of Hell.

Al fawa'ed al radawiyah" page 151

It is funny, yet sad to see such a story written in a book of a famous "scholar". I don't know where did he get this story from, knowing for sure it was not mentioned in the Holy Quran and authentic Hadiths. Interestingly how he mentioned that the saviour of souls appeared before even the creation of Adam (as). So how can anybody still have faith and respect for such a leader who makes such claims? And this is not the only one.. there are a lot more. Unfortunately the majority of Shia see the garnished picture of Khomeini.

I am not asking any questions here, but asking people who consider this guy a "scholar" to read more about him, his "studies", and most importantly, his history and how did he become the leader of the Revolution.

It is not surprising what he also did during the First Gulf War, while he was blessing the soldiers and touching their foreheads and telling them: "today (if you die) you will have dinner with Imam Ali and Hussien"

(salam)

298044_10150278654569242_508474241_7570771_5479950_n.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all not all Shias believe in Khomanei, many love him and many dislike him. But that's another thread for another day.

Secondly, I don't agree with this statement, if infact it is in his book. From just a logical perspective, an angel does not have free will. They are like robots, they do what they are told. For Allah to punish a creature with no free will is illogical and unjust. Angels have no capacity to say 'No'. They do what they are told.

Thirdly, I can come up with many spectacularly outrageous statements made by popular sunni scholars, but I have flaws; I'm a very lazy person and don't have interest in the subject.

Lastly, just because a Shia scholar xyz said something, don't assume all Shias will unanimously agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(bismillah)

(salam)

I have noticed the huge amount of respect that Shia have to Khomeini. While researching some of the stuff he wrote in his famous books, I found a couple of paragraphs which a normal person with common sense would stop and think... I will not mention them all now..

But this one really caught my attention.

As he claims, this story took place in the beginning of creation.. which he witnessed :donno: ??

What is narrated about Gabriel in the beginning of creation when Allah had asked him (Gabriel) several times "Who am I and who are You!?". And every time he answered: " You are you and I am I". Then Allah burns him for being too proud and sends him away from the nearest heavens until the saviour of souls appeared in the world of lights and ghosts. The Mawla of the two universes and the Imam of the Thaqalayn, our Mawla Ali bin abi Talib alaihi salam . Then Ali taught Gabriel to say in the answer: "You are the Great King and I am the humble slave" and when he said it he was saved from the fires of Hell.

Al fawa'ed al radawiyah" page 151

It is funny, yet sad to see such a story written in a book of a famous "scholar". I don't know where did he get this story from, knowing for sure it was not mentioned in the Holy Quran and authentic Hadiths. Interestingly how he mentioned that the saviour of souls appeared before even the creation of Adam (as). So how can anybody still have faith and respect for such a leader who makes such claims? And this is not the only one.. there are a lot more. Unfortunately the majority of Shia see the garnished picture of Khomeini.

I am not asking any questions here, but asking people who consider this guy a "scholar" to read more about him, his "studies", and most importantly, his history and how did he become the leader of the Revolution.

It is not surprising what he also did during the First Gulf War, while he was blessing the soldiers and touching their foreheads and telling them: "today (if you die) you will have dinner with Imam Ali and Hussien"

(salam)

(wasalam)

Aside from what the brother above has said, the narrative you posted comes from narrations in our books - rijaal aside - it exists. And it is not speaking about Ameer al-Mu'mineen عليه السلام has a human being of clay but his light - the light created from the light of Rasulullah Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله. You do not know Shi'i Islam or Shi'i books. Nor do you, or any of the muqaasireen, have the right lens by which to look into our books and attain proper understanding of them.

Ayatullah Khomeini رحمه الله was a faqeeh, an `aarif, and a political leader. Also, if you are going to be martyred, die in the way of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, I would most certainly expect to be having dinner with Ahlulbayt [as] afterwards.

في أمان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its alrdy been pointed out it goes against the concept of Allah being Adl (justice). As angels don't have free will.

Unless I've missed something out.

Edited by Sheraz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

I have noticed the huge amount of respect that Shia have to Khomeini. While researching some of the stuff he wrote in his famous books, I found a couple of paragraphs which a normal person with common sense would stop and think... I will not mention them all now..

But this one really caught my attention.

As he claims, this story took place in the beginning of creation.. which he witnessed :donno: ??

What is narrated about Gabriel in the beginning of creation when Allah had asked him (Gabriel) several times "Who am I and who are You!?". And every time he answered: " You are you and I am I". Then Allah burns him for being too proud and sends him away from the nearest heavens until the saviour of souls appeared in the world of lights and ghosts. The Mawla of the two universes and the Imam of the Thaqalayn, our Mawla Ali bin abi Talib alaihi salam . Then Ali taught Gabriel to say in the answer: "You are the Great King and I am the humble slave" and when he said it he was saved from the fires of Hell.

Al fawa'ed al radawiyah" page 151

It is funny, yet sad to see such a story written in a book of a famous "scholar". I don't know where did he get this story from, knowing for sure it was not mentioned in the Holy Quran and authentic Hadiths. Interestingly how he mentioned that the saviour of souls appeared before even the creation of Adam (as). So how can anybody still have faith and respect for such a leader who makes such claims? And this is not the only one.. there are a lot more. Unfortunately the majority of Shia see the garnished picture of Khomeini.

I am not asking any questions here, but asking people who consider this guy a "scholar" to read more about him, his "studies", and most importantly, his history and how did he become the leader of the Revolution.

It is not surprising what he also did during the First Gulf War, while he was blessing the soldiers and touching their foreheads and telling them: "today (if you die) you will have dinner with Imam Ali and Hussien"

(salam)

298044_10150278654569242_508474241_7570771_5479950_n.jpg

Lol. You know i replaced the word Imam Ali a.s with Abu Bakr and show the narration to one sunni Imam Mosque few months back. He was SubhanAllah , mashAllah, what a companion Abu Bakr was and to him this narration made sense. I showed it to couple of other sunni colleagues with same technique and all of them were so happy to see praise of Abu Bakr in this fashion. Brother why narrations containing Imam Ali a.s name become stupid and funny to understand and you guys start pointing fingers on the scholars who wrote!!!!! When such strange narrations are said about their heroes they don't see any flaw in it even the logic says kill me 2000 times to believe in it.

Dont hate Imam Ali a.s please, i request you. You can never understand his position with Muawiyah's love blinding your eyes.

Sorry for side tacking the argument but that what little piece of information from my side. Carry on with the main topic.

JazakAllah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(bismillah) (salam) I have noticed the huge amount of respect that Shia have to Khomeini. While researching some of the stuff he wrote in his famous books, I found a couple of paragraphs which a normal person with common sense would stop and think... I will not mention them all now.. But this one really caught my attention. As he claims, this story took place in the beginning of creation.. which he witnessed :donno: ??

Honestly speaking, I see absolutely NO problem with that narration. It is only a case of Imaam 'Alee (as) teaching the King of Angels, Hadrat Jibraaeel (as). He was ignorant, and did not know what to say. His ignorant and innocence made him commit an innocent mistake before the Lord of the Worlds. The whole incident was an attempt to pass a clear message to the Arch-angel.

That aside, I see you claiming that Imaam Khumaynee (ra) CLAIMED to have witnessed the incident. Well, I cannot see that in what you posted, or anywhere else in his books. So, could you please ;provide tangible evidence for your claim - or I deem you a horrible liar?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Honestly speaking, I see absolutely NO problem with that narration. It is only a case of Imaam 'Alee (as) teaching the King of Angels, Hadrat Jibraaeel (as). He was ignorant, and did not know what to say. His ignorant and innocence made him commit an innocent mistake before the Lord of the Worlds. The whole incident was an attempt to pass a clear message to the Arch-angel.

Angels cannot make mistakes because they have no free will and are infallible.

Your statement is illogical.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Secondly, I don't agree with this statement, if infact it is in his book. From just a logical perspective, an angel does not have free will. They are like robots, they do what they are told. For Allah to punish a creature with no free will is illogical and unjust. Angels have no capacity to say 'No'. They do what they are told.

I know this is a Sunni belief but I've read a number of Shi'ite traditions where angels are not described as being like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels cannot make mistakes because they have no free will and are infallible.

Your statement is illogical.

You must think these verses are illogical too:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنْبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

قَالُوا سُبْحَانَكَ لَا عِلْمَ لَنَا إِلَّا مَا عَلَّمْتَنَا ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ {32}

[Shakir 2:32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنْبِئْهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَنْبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُلْ لَكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}

[Shakir 2:33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

Angels do not sound like robots in these verses. And they were even WRONG in their claims as you see!

Again, it was an innocent mistake on their part!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know this is a Sunni belief but I've read a number of Shi'ite traditions where angels are not described as being like that.

You must think these verses are illogical too:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}

[Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنْبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

قَالُوا سُبْحَانَكَ لَا عِلْمَ لَنَا إِلَّا مَا عَلَّمْتَنَا ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ {32}

[Shakir 2:32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنْبِئْهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَنْبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُلْ لَكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}

[Shakir 2:33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

Angels do not sound like robots in these verses. And they were even WRONG in their claims as you see!

Again, it was an innocent mistake on their part!

[Pickthal 66:6] O ye who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire whereof the fuel is men and stones, over which are set angels strong, severe, who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded.

Do as they are commanded?? Sounds like a robot to me.

Saved - The verses you posted proves nothing except they weren't intelligent enough to understand the issue at hand. It has nothing to do with free will.

Ex. A noob robot with no free will.

--------------------------------------

Also from al-Islam

"I would like to first ask this brother if knows Muslims believe that angels are infallible, i.e., they do not make any mistakes. (Otherwise, some major flaws, among many, would be that the validity of Quran transmitted by Gabriel which will go seriously under question; and that the angels who record our deeds may write things incorrectly; and also the angel of death may take the life of a wrong person instead of another!!!!). Allah stated in Quran: "...the angels do not violate the Commands of Allah, and do (precisely) what they are ordered. (66:6)"If you also agree that angels are infallible, and if your above statement is true, then you consider angels are either god or demigod (?!) (may Allah protect us). Therefore, your above statement is wrong. I just gave you an example of infallible species who are nothing but the creatures of God. They are neither God nor semi-god, nor demi-god, yet infallible.Angels are programmed and work like faultless bug-free computers. They can not go against the orders of Allah."

http://www.al-islam....hapter1b/4.html

Edited by Ugly Jinn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick note, but the above is not from Khomeini unlike what the above copy/paster is claiming. Rather it's from book called al-Fawa'id ar-Radawiyya by Qadi Sa`id al-Qummi (a Safawid era scholar/philosopher) which is itself a commentary on a narration. Khomeini wrote some footnotes on the book (hence why the title says at-Ta`liqa `ala). If he'd even bothered to look at the editor's footnotes in the scan above, he'd also see that it even gives a reference for the quote, which is al-Anwar an-Nu`maniyya (I think by Sayyid Ni`matullah al-Jaza'iri). So really, none of this has anything to do with Khomeini other than being in a book he wrote some footnotes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there are other verses

And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right. (2-31)

They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise. (2-32)

I have to agree, how would it be fair for Allah to 'burn him for being too proud' when the only knowledge the angles have comes from Allah, it would be like asking a child a question to which you know he doesn't know the answer, then putting his hand in hot water to punish him.

Edited by ShahHussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[Pickthal 66:6] O ye who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire whereof the fuel is men and stones, over which are set angels strong, severe, who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded. Do as they are commanded?? Sounds like a robot to me. Saved - The verses you posted proves nothing except they weren't intelligent enough to understand the issue at hand. It has nothing to do with free will. Ex. A noob robot with no free will. --------------------------------------

Now, you got it! :yaali: You see, this is what we call innocent mistake. A robot does not make innocent mistakes, don't you think? They did not have enough knowledge of the matter, and therefore made a mistake as a result. It was not deliberate.

As for the verse you quoted, it only shows that whenever Allah ORDERS them to do something, they have no free will with regards to His orders, and they always obeys His orders. This is not saying anything about situations where Allah is not ordering them, but discussing with them!

Let me ask: would you ever "discuss" with a mindless robot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick note, but the above is not from Khomeini unlike what the above copy/paster is claiming. Rather it's from book called al-Fawa'id ar-Radawiyya by Qadi Sa`id al-Qummi (a Safawid era scholar/philosopher) which is itself a commentary on a narration. Khomeini wrote some footnotes on the book (hence why the title says at-Ta`liqa `ala). If he'd even bothered to look at the editor's footnotes in the scan above, he'd also see that it even gives a reference for the quote, which is al-Anwar an-Nu`maniyya (I think by Sayyid Ni`matullah al-Jaza'iri). So really, none of this has anything to do with Khomeini other than being in a book he wrote some footnotes on.

Haha...cool. I had my doubts hence wrote "if infact it is in his book" in my first post. Khomenei wouldn't make a mistake like that.

And yet some shias blindly believed...lol

Now, you got it! :yaali: You see, this is what we call innocent mistake. A robot does not make innocent mistakes, don't you think? They did not have enough knowledge of the matter, and therefore made a mistake as a result. It was not deliberate.

As for the verse you quoted, it only shows that whenever Allah ORDERS them to do something, they have no free will with regards to His orders, and they always obeys His orders. This is not saying anything about situations where Allah is not ordering them, but discussing with them!

Let me ask: would you ever "discuss" with a mindless robot?

Oh dear. Intelligence has nothing to do with free will. Whether or not I discuss with a mindless robot is irrelevant. Allah chooses what information to give the Angels. Again, just because angels were not intelligent enough to understand a certain situation doesn't make them mindless or it's a mistake.

Just like your computer. It does what you tell it to do, it has no free will. If you tell it to walk, it can't. Does that make the computer mindless? Is it a mistake of the computer for not knowing how to walk?

Edited by Ugly Jinn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to agree, how would it be fair for Allah to 'burn him for being too proud' when the only knowledge the angles have comes from Allah, it would be like asking a child a question to which yuo know he doesn't know the answer, then putting his hand in hot water to punish him.

This does not address these verses:

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنْبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنْبِئْهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَنْبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُلْ لَكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}

[Shakir 2:33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

Besides, all knowledge comes from Allaah. EVERYTHING we know comes from Allaah. Are you saying it is then unjust for Allaah to put any of us in Hellfire for his sins? Are you attributing predeterminism to Allaah? Are you equating the fact that Allaah gives us all our knowledge with predeterminism?

Haha...cool. I had my doubts hence wrote "if infact it is in his book" in my first post. Khomenei wouldn't make a mistake like that. And yet some shias blindly believed...lol Oh dear. Intelligence has nothing to do with free will. Whether or not I discuss with a mindless robot is irrelevant. Again, just because angels were not intelligent enough to understand a certain situation doesn't make them mindless. I have a better idea. Why don't you email all the marjas. Ask them "Do angels have free will?". You will get your answer.

Maybe I should put this directly to you: do you believe the angels were RIGHT when Allah discussed Adam (as) with them? If they were right, why did Allah say:

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنْبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنْبِئْهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَنْبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُلْ لَكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}

[Shakir 2:33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

Plus, I don't follow marjas. I follow the Qur'aan and authentic Shee'ah hadeeths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe I should put this directly to you: do you believe the angels were RIGHT when Allah discussed Adam (as) with them? If they were right, why did Allah say:

Neither, there is no right or wrong. The angels did not know. It is clearly stated in verse 32, which you didn't post..lol

[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

Pooya Tafsir:

The names Adam learned from Allah were not in the knowledge of the angels, because these names did not refer to the phenomena known to them.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

You are trying to prove something that doesn't exist. Allah programmed the angels with no free will. They do as told, given knowledge by Allah as He wills, and are incapable of making a mistake. They are Allah's robots in a way, if you accuse the robot of making a mistake it is a direct insult to the Maker (i.e. He didn't make a perfect robot).

Edited by Ugly Jinn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Neither, there is no right or wrong. The angels did not know. It is clearly stated in verse 32, which you didn't post..lol

[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

Pooya Tafsir:

The names Adam learned from Allah were not in the knowledge of the angels, because these names did not refer to the phenomena known to them.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

You are trying to prove something that doesn't exist. Allah programmed the angels with no free will. They do as told, given knowledge by Allah as He wills, and are incapable of making a mistake. They are Allah's robots in a way, if you accuse the robot of making a mistake it is a direct insult to the Maker (i.e. He didn't make a perfect robot).

Angels are NOT robots. They have intelligence, which is why Allah discusses with them. You don't discuss with robots, do you?

Well, I will post these again:

وَعَلَّمَ آدَمَ الْأَسْمَاءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَهُمْ عَلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنْبِئُونِي بِأَسْمَاءِ هَٰؤُلَاءِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {31}

[Shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

قَالَ يَا آدَمُ أَنْبِئْهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا أَنْبَأَهُمْ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ قَالَ أَلَمْ أَقُلْ لَكُمْ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ غَيْبَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَكْتُمُونَ {33}

[Shakir 2:33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?

You see robots hiding things?

What in your opinion is the meaning of Allah's challenge: "if you are right"? Do you tell that to your robots?

Edited by Saved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

Was Shaytan not an angel?

That's what the Christians say. Our position is that he was a Jinn who happened to be with the angels:

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلً

[Shakir 18:50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Neither, there is no right or wrong. The angels did not know. It is clearly stated in verse 32, which you didn't post..lol

[Pickthal 2:32] They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

Pooya Tafsir:

The names Adam learned from Allah were not in the knowledge of the angels, because these names did not refer to the phenomena known to them.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

You are trying to prove something that doesn't exist. Allah programmed the angels with no free will. They do as told, given knowledge by Allah as He wills, and are incapable of making a mistake. They are Allah's robots in a way, if you accuse the robot of making a mistake it is a direct insult to the Maker (i.e. He didn't make a perfect robot).

Salaam

I realize that when our sunni brothers debate/discuss with us over the Sahaba, they forget the status of Prophet s.a.w and make the Sahaba surpass Prophet s.a.w. Now same thing is going on here, to make their motive regarding Angels, they are Nauzbillah forgetting what is Almighty Allah.

Once such example is here;

Angels said: They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

If we consider Angels as robot then why Allah on the first place asked them something which He knew that He did not teach them. Was Allah nauzbillah was playing cheat game with robotic angels!!!!! ?

Or

If Allah did teach them those names as well, then Infallible Angels were lying that they know only what is being taught to them!!!!!

I am confused, help? (help from shia brother plz i do not wana get more confused by hearing what non shia says).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know this is a Sunni belief but I've read a number of Shi'ite traditions where angels are not described as being like that.

[Yusufali 2:30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Angels do have their own will, they can gain knowledge of matters and then express their opinion, like the above verse where they express their surprise at yet another creation being sent down to earth. They can gain knowledge, but unlike humans they do not build upon knowledge because they have no desires, in this aspect they differ from humans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angels cannot make mistakes because they have no free will and are infallible.

Your statement is illogical.

in shia belief,angels are not robotic as you said (they have free will but limited for some natural and logical reasons) but are infallible creatures that do not disobey God.one of the below lectures or even both talks about angels (i'm not sure which of them exactly or if both of them):

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What in your opinion is the meaning of Allah's challenge: "if you are right"? Do you tell that to your robots?

You obviously aren't able to interpret the verse yourself, no surprise you don't have a marja. It's either the angels KNOW (they are right, Allah gave them the knowledge) or DO NOT KNOW (they are not aware of it, Allah hasn't given them that knowledge yet). There is no wrong or mistake or hiding! Based on the knowledge God gives the Angels, they reply.

Tafsir from Allamah Tabatabaei:

"Allah did not say that the vicegerent-designate would not cause mischief and bloodshed; nor did He reject the plea of the angels that they celebrated His praise and extolled His glory. By this silence, He confirmed that the angels were right on both counts. But then He made manifest one thing which the angels were not aware of. He showed them that there was a matter which they could not shoulder the responsibility of, white this proposed vicegerent could do so. Man was entrusted with a divine secret which the angels, in their nature, were unable to know or understand."

...........

The angels were unaware of even the existence of these "names"; it was not that they knew about the names but were not sure whether Adam knew them or not.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

I realize that when our sunni brothers debate/discuss with us over the Sahaba, they forget the status of Prophet s.a.w and make the Sahaba surpass Prophet s.a.w. Now same thing is going on here, to make their motive regarding Angels, they are Nauzbillah forgetting what is Almighty Allah.

I am neither a sunni nor shia, but also both (contradictory isn't).

Once such example is here;

Angels said: They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.

If we consider Angels as robot then why Allah on the first place asked them something which He knew that He did not teach them. Was Allah nauzbillah was playing cheat game with robotic angels!!!!! ?

Or

If Allah did teach them those names as well, then Infallible Angels were lying that they know only what is being taught to them!!!!!

I am confused, help? (help from shia brother plz i do not wana get more confused by hearing what non shia says).

Read tafsir from Tabatabaei I posted.

in shia belief,angels are not robotic as you said (they have free will but limited for some natural and logical reasons) but are infallible creatures that do not disobey God.one of the below lectures or even both talks about angels (i'm not sure which of them exactly or if both of them)

Robots is a figure of speech I was using to illustrate the computer example. Angels DO NOT have free will.

Email your marja if Angel's have free will or not, you'll get your answer. I already posted from al-islam.org

No offense, I'm not going to listen to a 2 hour lecture of Rajabali for question marjas have already answered.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

I know this is a Sunni belief but I've read a number of Shi'ite traditions where angels are not described as being like that.

If you're talking about the narration about the that angel losing his wings and then getting them back through the tawassul of Imam al-Husayn [as]'s crib, that incident involves the angel in question asking for free will and Allah (swt) granting it to him to show him.

Something like that. Last I asked about this tradition was a long time ago because I had first doubted for the same reasons.

في أمان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

If you're talking about the narration about the that angel losing his wings and then getting them back through the tawassul of Imam al-Husayn [as]'s crib, that incident involves the angel in question asking for free will and Allah (swt) granting it to him to show him.

Something like that. Last I asked about this tradition was a long time ago because I had first doubted for the same reasons.

في أمان الله

Thanks, I guess I missed that portion when I read it. I'll have to find it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

That's what the Christians say. Our position is that he was a Jinn who happened to be with the angels:

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلً

[Shakir 18:50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

My bad, I thought sunnis believed he was an angel too :donno:

ALI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

Before the creation of Adam (as) there was Five Nours

1. The prophet (pbuh)

2. Seyda Fatima Zahra (as)

3. Imam Ali (as)

4. Imam Al Hassan (as)

5. Imam Al Hussain (as)

I am not expecting you to understand. Because this is a lot to take. And now i have seen this question in more sites.

Edited by Insane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...