Documenting Umer's Bravery

[Righteous]

Umer is considered by Ahle Sunnat as the most fearless leader and bravest of the brave. Can you please document some of the episodes of bravery. I will request my Shia brethren to stay away patiently till we have at least a handful of such episodes before jumping into debate.

[Granturismo92]

Wrong place to post this, you might as well go to the Sunni Forum if your looking for answers. Umar was a coward who fled battle multiple times. Its a fact.

[JimJam]

His bravery only seems limited to beating up unarmed people in the manner of a thug

[Muntaqim Force]

Salaam

I will not make it complex.

I started my primary education in Non shia muslim school. The very first lesson of Umar's bravery which i read was "Umar beating his sister and brother in law" and the last lesson of bravery which i read about him was " Woman had miscarriage due to Umar's terror" .

Simple message which i got from the start till the end that he was domestic abuser and domestic abusers are not considered brave anywhere in this world or hereafter.

JazakAllah

[Shia_Debater]

Wrong place to post this, you might as well go to the Sunni Forum if your looking for answers. Umar was a coward who fled battle multiple times. Its a fact.

His bravery only seems limited to beating up unarmed people in the manner of a thug

The brother is asking for sunnis to comment on why umar is the bravest and then he is most likely going to debate with them, by jumping in and saying hes not brave is just going to hijack his thread. I too believe umar isnt brave but let the brother carry out what hes doing with his thread.

JazakAllah Khair.

[Righteous]

Please guys give me at least a couple......

[zakzaki]

Please guys give me at least a couple......

They can never give a single account of Umar's bravery other than Umar overpowering weak women such as his sister by beating her almost to death or threatening Women such as stoning them.

Or giving rules which ruin woman's lives such a the order of easy divorce and banning forms of marriage.

Umar is only known for his conquests in which he did not even participate but if you see other dictators Such as Hitler outperform him.

here it is discussed in detail.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234974829-was-conquests-another-biddah-of-umar/

[twoblade]

Maybe if you were more transparent in what you're trying to prove / purpose of debate than you'd have better luck. Naturally it won't matter, does Umar's bravery have anything to do with Shi'ite beliefs concerning him?

Edited August 16, 2011 by twoblade

[Muntaqim Force]

Maybe if you were more transparent in what you're trying to prove / purpose of debate than you'd have better luck. Naturally it won't matter, does Umar's bravery have anything to do with Shi'ite beliefs concerning him?

Yes it does somehow, dont worry about it . Just enlighten us with some bravery of him.

[twoblade]

Yes it does somehow, dont worry about it . Just enlighten us with some bravery of him.

Really now? How would your hatred for him change if he participated in x battles or if he didn't? It wouldn't...

[Righteous]

Really now? How would your hatred for him change if he participated in x battles or if he didn't? It wouldn't...

I am just curious because I get to hear about it a lot but have never really seen any reference to it. So humor me and prove his bravery.

[Muntaqim Force]

Really now? How would your hatred for him change if he participated in x battles or if he didn't? It wouldn't...

Just try to enlighten and see what changes. Btw Shias do not hate Umar. Hating is a negative element and we do not follow it. We send tabbra over the enemies of Ahle bait not because of hate but as part of our faith. Umar is one out of those enemies of Ahle Bait. Anyways carry on with the bravery and stop asking presumptive questions.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Muntaqim Force

[twoblade]

I am just curious because I get to hear about it a lot but have never really seen any reference to it. So humor me and prove his bravery.

Well, surely you consider the Twelve Imams as the bravest and most fearless leaders in the world. Would you in turn be willing to establish the bravery of someone else in the same way?

[JimJam]

Well, surely you consider the Twelve Imams as the bravest and most fearless leaders in the world. Would you in turn be willing to establish the bravery of someone else in the same way?

Red Herring.

Either give an example of his courage from some hadith or go away.

[Ameen]

Maybe if you were more transparent in what you're trying to prove / purpose of debate than you'd have better luck. Naturally it won't matter, does Umar's bravery have anything to do with Shi'ite beliefs concerning him?

Why don't you answer the question that's put forward rather than twisting and turning things around to avoid the subject. Here is one from me, What was Hazrath Umar's [ra] character and performance in the battle field??? Why don't you reply with solid references as evidence and proof. May be you will be able to change Shia belief concerning him. It's worth a try.

Well, surely you consider the Twelve Imams as the bravest and most fearless leaders in the world. Would you in turn be willing to establish the bravery of someone else in the same way?

Why not??? Once you've mentioned Hazrath Umar's [ra] performance and character in the battle field with solid references as evidence/proof and established his bravery then why not??? I wouldn't mind giving it a go

[Muntaqim Force]

Well, surely you consider the Twelve Imams as the bravest and most fearless leaders in the world. Would you in turn be willing to establish the bravery of someone else in the same way?

I wonder under the thread demanding for Umer's bravery, where the topic of 12 Imams a.s came!!!! Is this person try to divert people as usual!!!!!

[twoblade]

If I provide something to "humor" someone about an individual's bravery with no obviously stated motive, the least I can get is that they be willing to apply the same litmus test to an individual they actually care about versus one they hate...

Why not???

Let OP answer if they'd be up for that.

[Muntaqim Force]

We are waiting for the story mate.

[twoblade]

We are waiting for the story mate.

I don't see the point in posting a thread without something to gain. If this is just intended to be an exercise of posting the battles and events of 'Umar, disputing the reports Twelvers rely on to disparage 'Umar, than I don't have anything to gain - I've seen that discussion take place countless times. If we can add my twist to it, maybe we'll all learn something rather than just playing a game.

[JimJam]

^Can you show from your hadith an event where Umar (or even the the other two) in his actions surpassing Ali (as) in strength or wisdom or courage? Not merely a hadith in which someone merely claims he is better than Ali (as).

Is that too much to ask?

Umar fought battles but so did tens of thousands of others, that is not the issue. All the OP asked was for some actual event which supports this popular Sunni belief

Umer is considered by Ahle Sunnat as the most fearless leader and bravest of the brave.

Edited August 17, 2011 by JimJam

[Muntaqim Force]

I don't see the point in posting a thread without something to gain. If this is just intended to be an exercise of posting the battles and events of 'Umar, disputing the reports Twelvers rely on to disparage 'Umar, than I don't have anything to gain - I've seen that discussion take place countless times. If we can add my twist to it, maybe we'll all learn something rather than just playing a game.

lol you see this one taking place countless time but you failed to see concept of Imamat not taking place countless time. WOW

There is a point. See i had narrrated that i read two events of Umar's bravery. One, hitting his sister and brother in Law and second making woman lose her baby by his terror. So you should justify your caliph and Great Farooq's position by documenting some of his bravery.

If you still did not write then it means there is non.

[Righteous]

Well, surely you consider the Twelve Imams as the bravest and most fearless leaders in the world. Would you in turn be willing to establish the bravery of someone else in the same way?

Sure, Imam Ali was the contemporary and our first Imam, we will be happy to undertake the effort, but you gotta start first and give us some proof of Umer's bravery.

[Ameen]

I don't see the point in posting a thread without something to gain. If this is just intended to be an exercise of posting the battles and events of 'Umar, disputing the reports Twelvers rely on to disparage 'Umar, than I don't have anything to gain - I've seen that discussion take place countless times. If we can add my twist to it, maybe we'll all learn something rather than just playing a game.

This is a very sweet and clever way of trying to twist your way out of a very tricky situation. Why do you think, that every situation which you find difficult to answer, is just a game??? Let me break it down to you in simple terms. There are certain people who are labelled as greatest warriors by certain individuals but in fact they were not. They were just normal warriors. There are certain people who believe that some individuals were just normal warriors but others believe that they were or should be amongst the greatest. This is about truthfulness and falsehood and about right and wrong. The Ahle Sunnah believe that the first three Khalifs were amongst the greatest and finest warriors, especially Hazrath Umar [ra]. The Ahle Tashee believe that they were not but just normal and simple warriors. Some believe that Ameer Muavia was a great warrior but the others dispute this. Being courages and brave is good but being a coward or a wimp is not a crime. You are what you are it’s as simple as that. You’re good at some things but not at the others. You have some things but some things you don’t. This is your opportunity to set the record straight. Nobody is trying to humiliate or insult anyone. It’s a simple question! What was Hazrath Umar’s [ra] character and performance in the battle field??? Did he have any credibility in the battle ground??? Was he courageous and brave during battles??? Would you label him as one of the greatest, finest and remarkable warriors within Islamic history??? Some people also say and call the first three Khulafaa, especially the Shaikhein, as the lions of Allah do you believe in this??? Take this great opportunity to put the record straight and silence your critics.

[Ali Asgar]

How can they provide a proof when they all know what he was

[Maula Dha Mallang]

*cough*

its ironic that the guy who was chasing him was called "gay"

[JimJam]

Why has no one come & shown us the events which demonstrate Umar's great courage. Courage which makes him the second most important man after Muhammad (pbuh)? Why hasn't anyone come to show us that the status they assign to him in the hierarchy of the sahaba is based on real achievements?

[diracdeltafunc]

Whilst following the debate on the sunni forums, i came across the following thread :

http:// isl@mic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=14372&pid=93927&st=0entry93927

^^remove the spaces and add the 'a' instead of '@'.

So that guy is telling us that bassically umar and company ran according to bukhari but then again they didnt according to some other book. But wait! Bukhari then tells us that they actualy didnt run but they stayed and fought. But guess what? They captured two female captives??!!!!

Hahahaha! Wat more can you expect from umar?!! There was Haider e Karrar a..s slaughtering all the greatest warriors in the world and umar n company on the other hand only managed to capture two harmless women hahahahaha!

[The Green Knight]

Umar is only known for his conquests in which he did not even participate but if you see other dictators Such as Hitler outperform him.

Please. Do not compare him with Adolf Hitler, the honorable usurper of the International Jewish System a.k.a. Imperialism.

Thanks.

[AspiringToBeShia]

This is for the last poster Abu Dujana...

We are not at war with Jews. We are at war with the enemies of Ahlul Bayt. As far as I know, most jews do not even KNOW ahlul bayt so please do no create hate. I don't know whether you think Hitler was a mass murderer or not (although I think its obvious) but its clear that he does not represent Islam. God knows best. Sorry if I have somehow hurt your feelings.

As for the discussion of this topic, I should mention that lanaat is allowed in Islam. Lanaat is NOT cursing but it is a dua for God to remove his mercy from this dispicable creatures.

Edited August 26, 2011 by AspiringToBeShia

[Maliki]

Lanaat is NOT cursing but it is a dua for God to remove his mercy from this dispicable creatures.

And [there is a share for] those who came after them, saying, "Our Lord, forgive us and our brothers who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts [any] resentment toward those who have believed. Our Lord, indeed You are Kind and Merciful." AlHusr verse 10

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment. AlTawbah verse 100

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. Alfatih verse 29.

[Husseinjaber]

Umar=BAD

[Muntaqim Force]

This is a very sweet and clever way of trying to twist your way out of a very tricky situation. Why do you think, that every situation which you find difficult to answer, is just a game??? Let me break it down to you in simple terms. There are certain people who are labelled as greatest warriors by certain individuals but in fact they were not. They were just normal warriors. There are certain people who believe that some individuals were just normal warriors but others believe that they were or should be amongst the greatest. This is about truthfulness and falsehood and about right and wrong. The Ahle Sunnah believe that the first three Khalifs were amongst the greatest and finest warriors, especially Hazrath Umar [ra]. The Ahle Tashee believe that they were not but just normal and simple warriors. Some believe that Ameer Muavia was a great warrior but the others dispute this. Being courages and brave is good but being a coward or a wimp is not a crime. You are what you are it’s as simple as that. You’re good at some things but not at the others. You have some things but some things you don’t. This is your opportunity to set the record straight. Nobody is trying to humiliate or insult anyone. It’s a simple question! What was Hazrath Umar’s [ra] character and performance in the battle field??? Did he have any credibility in the battle ground??? Was he courageous and brave during battles??? Would you label him as one of the greatest, finest and remarkable warriors within Islamic history??? Some people also say and call the first three Khulafaa, especially the Shaikhein, as the lions of Allah do you believe in this??? Take this great opportunity to put the record straight and silence your critics.

Salaam

very well said brother.

I would love to add something more in your quote as a reply to twoblade. This question or thread is not something use less or not up to learning. This is regarding one of those three people who right after Prophet s.a.w succeeded as Muslim Caliph and wasgiven a title of Amir ul Momineen as well. Amir ul Momineen means leader of the momins and who are momins, definition is present in Quran. By discussing every character of Amir ul Momineen will definitely lead us to righteous successor of Islam and Muhammad s.a.w. A successor who you will find him in every religious duty, in every good deed, in every BATTLE, always following Prophet s.a.w, never doubting his words, answering every question, full of knowledge. So if we can find such person in our History then why to take someone who was not good in some things and good in somethings (as brother amin said and history says), why to take religion of Allah and Muhammad s.a.w from some who was not up to the definition of Amir ul Momineen or Ulil Amr!!!!!! Therefore we should follow this thread and do research, talk about it and come to conclusion that whose path is the path of Muhammad s.a.w , The of Allah.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Muntaqim Force

[twoblade]

Sure, Imam Ali was the contemporary and our first Imam, we will be happy to undertake the effort, but you gotta start first and give us some proof of Umer's bravery.

How convenient. I asked if you would be willing to defend/support the bravery of one of the 12 Imams, not one of your choosing. I would choose which Imam the same way you singled out umar. If that's fine with you, I'd be happy to discuss this.

Edited August 30, 2011 by twoblade

[Ameen]

How convenient. I asked if you would be willing to defend/support the bravery of one of the 12 Imams, not one of your choosing. I would choose which Imam the same way you singled out umar. If that's fine with you, I'd be happy to discuss this.

I am more than willing to take on this challenge. Not a problem! You still haven't answered my questions though. It seems like you're just beating around the bush. Lets start again. Who gave Hazrath Umar [ra] the titles [Ameerul-Momineen] and [Farooqe-Aazam]???? What was his character, performance and achievement in the battle fields???? Do you consider him as one of the greatest warriors within Islamic history???? If yes! Then why????? If you could kindly answer these questions with references please.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Ameen

[twoblade]

I am more than willing to take on this challenge. Not a problem! You still haven't answered my questions though. It seems like you're just beating around the bush. Lets start again. Who gave Hazrath Umar [ra] the titles [Ameerul-Momineen] and [Farooqe-Aazam]???? What was his character, performance and achievement in the battle fields???? Do you consider him as one of the greatest warriors within Islamic history???? If yes! Then why????? If you could kindly answer these questions with references please.

I haven't got a reason to beat around the bush. I just don't see the point of frivolous discussions that don't increase anyone's knowledge. I wanted to pick your Mahdi as the Imam for who's bravery should be discussed, but in retrospect, you probably wouldn't agree that bravery can only be established by actual actions (and not supposed prophecies of future events) - so let's go with al-Hassan, okay? We can attack this one issue at a time from the issues you raised:

- Title of Ameerul Mumineen

- Traditions as they relate to "bravery"

We can start with either one; your choice. But once I provide evidence for 'Umar's bravery, from Sunni books, and you say what you want about them, I want your proof, from Shi'ite books, for the same thing as it applies to al-Hassan (ra). Deal?