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In the Name of God بسم الله

Munazara [debate]: Farid Versus Walid (wasil)

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Sabbath and Abu Hurairah False Hadith

Sabbath and Abu Hurairah false hadith the in Torah.

According to abu Hurairah the Creation started on Saturday.

Saturday in Judaism is the day rest and the day remembrance of God.

The Day of Sabbath is well documented in the Holy Quran.

Therefore, abu Hurairah is worng.

According to the Torah the Creation started on Sunday, and not Saturday.

Creation according to the Torah:

The Torah consists of the first five books of the TaNaKh, the Old Testament, the Holy Bible. The first of these five books of Torah is called, "Genesis". Here is the Creation according to the Torah in Genesis:

Chapter 1

http://lds.org/scrip.../gen/1?lang=eng

God creates this earth and its heaven and all forms of life in six days—The creative acts of each day are described—God creates man, both male and female, in his own image—Man is given dominion over all things and is commanded to multiply and fill the earth.

Chapter 2

http://lds.org/scrip.../gen/2?lang=eng

The Creation is completed—God rests on the seventh day—The prior spirit creation is explained—Adam and Eve are placed in the Garden of Eden—They are forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil—Adam names every living creature—Adam and Eve are married by the Lord.

The Day of Sabbath, the Seventh Day, is in the Ten Commandments.

The Commandment of Sabbath is as follows:

Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. For six days you shall labour and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.

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(bismillah) [ 10751 ] 3 ـ وبإسناده عن الحسين بن سعيد ، عن النضر ، عن يحيى الحلبي ، عن ابن مسكان ، عن إسماعيل الجعفي قال : قلت لابي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) : رجل يحب أمير المؤمنين ( عليه السلام ) ولا يتبر

(bismillah) Did I just see taraddi to Shaykhayn and `Aa'isha? Fear Allah, brothers and sisters. Fear Allah and cling tight to tabarra'. في امان الله

(bismillah) اللهم قنا من الشرك والغلو والتقصير والبدع ولاتخلّط فينا أهلها بحق محمد وآل محمد صلى الله عليهم أجمعن والعن اعداءهم كثرا ابدا O Allah, protect us (save us) from Shirk, ghuluw, taqseer, and

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Didn't the Prophet (saws) knew the Torah very well?

Didn't he knew that the according to the Torah, the First Day of the Creation was Sunday, and not Saturday?

Didn't the Prophet knew the Sabbath Day, as it is discussed in the Holy Quran?

There are hadiths that the Prophet (saws) used to open the Jewish Scripture and the Christian Scripture and point to the revenants passages, by pointing his fingers to these passages?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

The system of rijaal and ahaad narrations is slippery slope of recursion that gets us nowhere. Here's a couple of my questions that, from my experience, Rijaalis are unable to really answer with certainty:

So are you on the manhaj of total reject of ahaad narrations? For `aqaa'id and for fiqh? If so, please wake up and stop believing that our whole fiqh is based off of mutawaatir hadeeth. Only al-Murtaza believed in total reject of akhbaar ahaad , while Mufeed still believed in it somewhat. Ibn Idrees al-Hillee (d. 598 AH) and Hamzah bin `Alee bin Zohra (d. 585 AH) were the only ones to cling to al-Murtaza's theory, while majority held the view of al-Toosi.

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

(bismillah)

So are you on the manhaj of total reject of ahaad narrations? For `aqaa'id and for fiqh? If so, please wake up and stop believing that our whole fiqh is based off of mutawaatir hadeeth. Only al-Murtaza believed in total reject of akhbaar ahaad , while Mufeed still believed in it somewhat. Ibn Idrees al-Hillee (d. 598 AH) and Hamzah bin `Alee bin Zohra (d. 585 AH) were the only ones to cling to al-Murtaza's theory, while majority held the view of al-Toosi.

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

No, I am not saying I reject ahaad narrations. But I am simply not convinced of using `ilm al-rijaal in the manner some people advocate to utilize ahaad texts.

Also, the establishment of tawaatur from Mufeed and Murtada رحمهما الله was not just with narrations but from things like early jurist writings/fatawa and other qaraa'in. This is at least my understanding.

في أمان الله

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(salam)

(bismillah)

No, I am not saying I reject ahaad narrations. But I am simply not convinced of using `ilm al-rijaal in the manner some people advocate to utilize ahaad texts.

So when is it permissible to use akbaar ahaad ?

Also, the establishment of tawaatur from Mufeed and Murtada رحمهما الله was not just with narrations but from things like early jurist writings/fatawa and other qaraa'in. This is at least my understanding.

The reason why al-MurtaDa used writinga/fataawa from previous scholars / sahaabas was because his reject of akhbaar aHaad, thus he had to expand the role of ijmaa`.

Question: What about if there are two types of mutawaatir reports that totally contradict each other? What will you do then?

P.S. - I still love it how people return back to rijaal whenever they see a hadeeth that has a "weird" matn. They are the first ones who says "And is this hadeeth authentic?". I find it funny.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

So when is it permissible to use akbaar ahaad ?

(wasalam)

*shrug* Not like I've really sat down and developed my own method (which I won't be doing for a while), so you'll have to wait till I have extensively studied to get this answer.

The reason why al-MurtaDa used writinga/fataawa from previous scholars / sahaabas was because his reject of akhbaar aHaad, thus he had to expand the role of ijmaa`.

Question: What about if there are two types of mutawaatir reports that totally contradict each other? What will you do then?

Again, see the above. I'll all for being proven wrong that rijal is superspecialawesome, but I doubt that will be the case. Pretend I've filled in this answer what an Akhbari would answer.

P.S. - I still love it how people return back to rijaal whenever they see a hadeeth that has a "weird" matn. They are the first ones who says "And is this hadeeth authentic?". I find it funny.

Okay? Rijal still isn't being given the primacy in that structure. The reason why rijal is being resorted to cause it is failing all other sorts tests of authenticity (whatever those may be by whomever).

(salam)

(wasalam)

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam
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(bismillah)

How can someone trust a religion who is itself out here to reject its thousand of years old legacy of Ismaa' wal Rijjal ?

How can you trust a religion whose fuqahaa dispute so much and base 90% of their rulings on ra'i (personal opinion) and qiyas (faulty analogy)? Rijal has never been our legacy. You don't know much about our history at all and seem to be misinformed by certain others into thinking rijaal = religion.

في أمان الله

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Brother Farid suggests that people actually read the debate, it's obvious some people aren't reading or they read and do not comprehend, see what your rule of exclusion and inclusion has been reduced to.

ناصب العداء لأعداء سيدنا محمد و آله و صحبه

TripolySunni

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This thread has turned into SHIA VS SHIA RIJJAL SYSTEM somehow. I wonder why did not Al-khoei think of rejecting the rijjal system or Sadooq and Tusi the way people are rejecting it on this thread. The issue is that any sane and impartial person would say that Rijjal system is the only logical and rational explanation of historical events and narrations attributed to some individuals. What other tools does one have to reject a Hadith? The Akhbaris reject rijjal system as well so are they right in their claims. The only issue is that after the technical knockout of Walid , members here have decided to bash the whole rijjal system to save their face so that rijjal system can be devalued and people can continue following the myths without investigating them.

The questions are simple.

1.Do you accept all the Hadiths recorded in major Shia Hadith books? ( Anyone who says yes to this would be an Akhbari)

2.Do you reject all the Hadiths recorded in major Shia Hadith books? (Anyone who says yes to this would be a "Quran only")

3.What other tools do you have for grading Hadiths or rejecting some and accepting some if you don't believe in Rijjal system?

Saima Bukhari , shame and honor are not present in your books or you are just acting ignorant.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

First and foremost, all praise is due to Allaah (SWT) for giving us this perfect religion of Shee'ah Islaam.

Second, to defend both the debaters there, they are debating their viewpoints and no one is getting paid by another or whatever to look bad or good. I believe this is a fruitful debate for everyone, including myself. To reconsider or not reconsider if following 'ilm al rijaal strictly is the way to go or not and if so, then how much should be implemented.

Next, I am of the belief that Ibraaheem bin Haashim is thiqah. Not because if you don't believe in him then you lose like 7396 ahaadeeth (in the four major books), but because there isn't any jarH on him, forget jarH mufassar. There is no way that our mutaqaddimeen scholars could have missed such a major narrator. To narrate so many ahaadeeth and not to get jarH but to get a comment on him bringing ahaadeeth from Koofah to Qum shows that he had to be thiqah or hasan in hadeeth from the mutaqaddimeen. Both Najaashee and Toosee comment on him but don't give him jarH.

Some would say this in itself would be a slippery slope because there are many mashaayakh of sadooq who are well known and they are getting graded majhool and might not have a single jarH against them. This is a different case than their's because we have ibn Taawoos commenting on the trustworthiness of Mutawakkil (who is a mashaayakh of Sadooq) and Ibraaheem bin Haashim. But ibn Taawoos doesn't grade the others as being thiqah, or we would have more than like 5-6 mashaayakh of sadooq in total being thiqah.

Also, when one looks at the ahaadeeth of Ibraaheem bin Haashim, then you don't see any ahaadeeth that show incorrect 'aqeedah. His 'aqeedah is on the right path.

At the end of the day, I don't believe that anyone is going to change their minds or others minds on Ibraaheem bin Haashim. It's a good educational lesson and that's pretty much about it.

One thing I am happy about is that people actually started to care about getting 'ilm in this subject. Some might have just gotten pushed away more, but at the end of the day it was a good way of wanting to learn more about our deen, especially one of the greatest narrators in our deen.

(salam)

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The honest and believing non-political shi'i scholars with no agenda (like politics for example) except the agenda to please Allah KNOW how to and to what extent use the ilm-e-rijaal / isnaad to determine some matter, and it is a tool among all the tools in their workshop, yes, but its not everything, unlike the modern day salafi / wahabi / ahl-e-hadith here and elsewhere are repeatedly, again and again, trying to shove down everyone's throat. They have tailored their religion by tailoring their choicest hadiths and their isnaad. However, relying on a human (and a mullah's no less) quite possibly biased and thoroughly imperfect opinion is just stupid (take sunni rule of "rafidhi = liar" rujl rule for example), and building a religion solely out of this "tool" is monumentally stupid. That's the whole point from us rijaal / isnaad critics, as others have tried to explain as well. Stop trying to bend our words and stop trying to be rijaal ilm pimped e-scholars please. Time to find a different crutch.

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Farid (Lord Botta) versus Walid (Wasil - Zurarah)

Farid (Lord Botta) is a Russain, stayed in Sharjah. U.A.E. for many years. Learned Arabic there and then migrated to Bahrain. There he adopted the Wahhabi religion and was given the citizenship of Bahrain.

To know more about both Farid (Lord Botta) and Wasil (Zurarah), see this link:

http://www.shiachat....-zurarah-wasil/

Brother Wasil was loved and is loved in ShiaChat and was/is supported by many.

May Allah bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad give good to brother Wasil in this life and afterlife. May Allah to increase his knowledge so that he can spread the true love of AhlulBayt (as.)

Wa'Salam.

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Brother Wasil was loved and is loved in ShiaChat and was/is supported by many.

May Allah bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad give good to brother Wasil in this life and afterlife. May Allah to increase his knowledge so that he can spread the true love of AhlulBayt (as.)

Wa'Salam.

Elahi ameen.

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http://www.shiachat....-zurarah-wasil/

Brother Wasil was loved and is loved in ShiaChat and was/is supported by many.

May Allah bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad give good to brother Wasil in this life and afterlife. May Allah to increase his knowledge so that he can spread the true love of AhlulBayt (as.)

You guys love a man that lies while swearing by Allah and says he would have his dog sodomize a Shi'i woman - in the link you yourself posted? Inna lillahi wa inna illayhi rajioon. May Allah save the good people from that kind of "true love" of Ahlul Bayt...

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You guys love a man that lies while swearing by Allah and says he would have his dog sodomize a Shi'i woman - in the link you yourself posted? Inna lillahi wa inna illayhi rajioon. May Allah save the good people from that kind of "true love" of Ahlul Bayt...

You show your hatred, and thus you have not read the full thread. Lord Botta (Farid) is a liar, who constantly twist the Quran and Hadith to fit his khabeth Wahhabi agenda. Read the full thread and see how Lord Botta (Farid) twists the scripture.

I am surprised Wasil is debating on a forum, where they consider Shai to be non-Muslims. Check out the sub-fourm and it is called, "Muslims versus Shia". This tells a lots of Sunni's mind frame.

However, who would you find at that khabeth Wahabbi forum, people like Lord Botta (Farid), lotsofilms, Nadver Zaveri, Junaid and so forth, who have recently discovered Arabic language like Farid (thanks to Google Translator) and consider themselves experts in Islam.

Those people are at the forum where it is called, Muslism verses Shia. They are not Shia, they are khabeth Wahhabis like Lord Botta (Farid) disgusted like Shias. Walid have already exposed them.

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You guys love a man that lies while swearing by Allah and says he would have his dog sodomize a Shi'i woman - in the link you yourself posted? Inna lillahi wa inna illayhi rajioon. May Allah save the good people from that kind of "true love" of Ahlul Bayt...

I invited Walid to a Nusayree forum (now defunct), with the hope that he would use his rijaal knowledge to destroy the kufr there. Note that I used to be "toyibonline" on ShiaChat.

Later, I had trouble with Walid. So, he sent me this horrible email on 17/2/2010:

I was not surprised when u asked me to join that kaffir forum mominonline and i what confirmed my suspicion is that your best friends are there posting and enjoying the ghulu and shirk and kofr with their saba'i brothers and they are moderators also. i knew you wanted me to join to get insulted but i joined to refute knowing that i won't be able to put my points across as i joined that forum before when it was called something different before.

anyway it rhymes well : toyinonline and mominonline so i am not surprised you are a supporter of that forum.

anyway : there's two kinds of black people : there's decent black people who are educated and good and there's niggers and you are definitely a [Edited Out] and u proved this superbly.

i learned over the years never to trust a [Edited Out] especially one with filthy religion like yours but i tried to give you benefit of the doubt but then what happened ? u showed your [Edited Out] attitude and your filthy complexes and this not strange or surprising coming from a filthy [Edited Out].

but you are not just a [Edited Out] but also a kaffir so congratulations.

one things is for sure : you are not shia but a saba'i who makes partners with Allah and you are a sick mother [Edited Out]er with no shame who insults his masters and tries to give importance to his little insignificant self but all that in vain as the complex is still within you eating up at your [Edited Out]ed up ego.

just one advice mate: go [Edited Out] yourself

On 14/7/2010, Walid sent me another email:

no salam to the filthy [Edited Out].

you proved to everyone that you are a liar : you called me bakri and also a hypocrite !! wow this is indeed laughable. everybody knows that i don't have a single drop of love for abu bakr and everybody know how honest i am so neither bakrism nor hypocratie are in my blood.

if you mean by bakri every muslim who is against your shirk and ghulu as a pro-nusairi illegitimate [Edited Out] then i am bakri and proud.

now you are spreading more lies about me saying that i have love for aicha!!!!

this alone is enough to show that you are indeed a liar and the true hypocrite! i don't just not love aicha but i hate her from the bottom of my heart and everybody knows this. stopping cursing her is just for the sake of some sunni brothers who asked me kindly to stop for their sake and i did for two reasons:

-for the sake of these good friends even though they are opponents.

- i found cursing her counterproductive.

so for a [Edited Out] like you to open his filthy mouth and accuse me then i just want to say that i don't care one bit about pro-nusairi niggers but i only answered you to show you how pathetic you are.

when you find your real father then i might give your opinion some importance but not till then!.

by the way : i love black people but i hate niggers and you are a [Edited Out] and an illegitimate one on top of it.

say hello to your ghali [Edited Out] sayed-demanding.

I swear by Allaah, I have quoted his emails without ANY editing or subtraction.

I am a black man.

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I swear by Allaah, I have quoted his emails without ANY editing or subtraction.

Surprising that you swear by Allah and at the same time you write Allah with double 'aa', like Allaah. The doubles are back.

Anyhow, it is not nice what is done in privacy to quote it publicly. Doesn't say very much about you. You have all the knives out.

Every post Farid (Lord Batta) makes, he gets bunch of "thank you" and "plus points". Every post Walid (Wasil) makes, he gets no "thank you" and "negative points".

Talk about bunch of prejudice people who know Walid is winning and destroying Farid and their religion, so now they are out for mind games.

Posting things which are written in privacy now in public.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

saved bro, i have sent you a pm

kindly attend to it.

(wasalam)

Salam brother,

As usual a very excellent response.

Walid is winning the debate, so the knives will be out en masses. One of the thing, Wahhabis will do, is to try to expose him on this forum and destroy him.

Thus, I have checked mated them by bring the old Zurarah thread. One of the things brother Walid has repeatedly siad that he lacks in the adaab and akhlaq departments. Allah know that we all lack in something as we are all imperfect, the Perfect One is Allah Only.

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One of the things brother Walid has repeatedly siad that he lacks in the adaab and akhlaq departments. Allah know that we all lack in something as we are all imperfect, the Perfect One is Allah Only.

Since walid knows his problems he really should try and correct them.

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Since walid knows his problems he really should try and correct them.

Very true brother, I believe he is working very hard on this.

There is no verse in the Holy Quran which has the literal word "haram" in connection with alcohol.

There was an alcoholic man in times of rasool Allah (saws). Every time a verse will descend about alcohol, he wouldn't quit his drinking as it a discase. He will argue with the Prophet that the verse doesn't say "haram" in it. The last surah of the Holy Quran is surah 5, and even the verse in the surah 5, doesn't use the word "haram" in it. Some people say that he quit drinking about this surah, others claim that he still continued on drinking.

To know you have a problem is easy, to correct it takes lots of work.

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Every post Farid (Lord Batta) makes, he gets bunch of "thank you" and "plus points". Every post Walid (Wasil) makes, he gets no "thank you" and "negative points". Talk about bunch of prejudice people who know Walid is winning and destroying Farid and their religion, so now they are out for mind games.

Because people who are actually interested in the discussion, usually not just people who aren't competent enough to grasp the topic, are voting on posts. Several of the people that gave Farid "thank yous" and "pluses" also did so for Walid when he actually had valid points he was making. But when you're clinging to what Walid's arguments are constantly boiling down to:

You are arguing that Abu Huraira heard a hadith from Ka'ab Al-Ahbaar and taught it to four of his students. He told three of his students that he heard this hadith from the Prophet (pbuh). Then, he told Abu Salama that he heard this hadith from the Prophet (pbuh) as well. Somehow though, he let his guard down, and narrated the hadith to Abu Salama again, but this time, said that he heard it from Ka'ab Al-Ahbaar, by accident. As time progressed, Abu Salama taught this hadith to three other students of his, but left out the "fact" that Abu Huraira had heard it from Ka'ab Al-Ahbaar. One day though, by mistake, once again, he admitted to Yahya bin Abi Katheer that he heard this hadith from Abi Huraira. Let us also not forget that Aws bin Aws also heard this hadith, according to you, from Ka'ab Al-Ahbaar. Yet, he apparently forgot where he heard it from, and attributed it to the Prophet (pbuh) accidentally.

i.e. ridiculous conspiracy theories, as "winning and destroying Farid and their religion", than it's pretty clear where objectivity is lacking...

Anyhow, it is not nice what is done in privacy to quote it publicly. Doesn't say very much about you. You have all the knives out.

Wow. So you're attacking a person for qouting Walid's statements, disgusting racist statements, instead of the person making the statements. I think it's pretty clear here that your cheer-leading is nothing but partisanship and the debate is live and online for any objective readers...

Edited by twoblade
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Farid was destoryed on this forum by me on Sahih Bukhari.

Abu Hurariah converted from Judaism but doesn't know that according to both Judaism and Islam, the Jews have to observe Sabbath on Saturday.

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Surprising that you swear by Allah and at the same time you write Allah with double 'aa', like Allaah. The doubles are back.

Anyhow, it is not nice what is done in privacy to quote it publicly. Doesn't say very much about you. You have all the knives out.

Every post Farid (Lord Batta) makes, he gets bunch of "thank you" and "plus points". Every post Walid (Wasil) makes, he gets no "thank you" and "negative points".

Talk about bunch of prejudice people who know Walid is winning and destroying Farid and their religion, so now they are out for mind games.

Posting things which are written in privacy now in public.

This is not a game of the minds. I know Farid is spewing nonsense in the debate (which seems to have reached a stalemate now). All the arguments he brings against the Shee'ah narrator were neatly destroyed by Walid. They also show that Farid is a hypocrite, since the same arguments stand against Ibn Majah! Farid's "logic" in his attack on the Shee'ah narrator actually destroys his own Sunnee sect completely - since the same arguments strike at Ibn Majah and al-'Aqeelee.

In any case, you yourself brought up that thread where Walid is exposed saying he would make his dog sodomize a sister in Islaam! Since you were still defending that scandal, I decided to let loose what I had in stock, in support of TwoBlade's disgust at your reprehensible attitude towards Walid's extremely low morals.

There is no doubt that Farid is a diehard Naasibee. But there is some evidence that Walid too is a Naasibee. Hatred of Shee'ahs is an evidence of Naasibism, and Walid hates Shee'ahs generally. While you see him sending blessings upon Aboo Bakr and 'Umar, he rains curses and abuses upon Shee'ahs generally, and upon such noble characters as Shaykh Yassir al-Habeeb (ra) and al-Imaam al-Khumaynee (ra).

I know you hate Farid a lot, and you are certain about his dishonesty and Naasibism. You are right, my brother. Farid is a Naasibee, and therefore a kaafir. He is even worse than a kaafir. You can see my evidence for this position here http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/08/handshake-with-nasibi.html. But, you should not blindly defend Walid either. He does not deserve it.

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i.e. ridiculous conspiracy theories, as "winning and destroying Farid and their religion", than it's pretty clear where objectivity is lacking...

Talking about objectivity. On ShiaChat we consider you a Muslim.

But on the kabeth Wahhabi forum, Shias are not considered Muslim. They have a sub-forum called, "Muslims versus Shia"

Now the above is objectivity for you. The forum is nothing but the kabeth Wahhabi forum and how can they be objective there to "Thank" Walid and give him postive encouragement.

No, the kabeth Wahhabis are giving him negative encouragement.

WHY?

He has already destroyed their religion, and now they are out there for his blood.

I know you hate Farid a lot, and you are certain about his dishonesty and Naasibism. You are right, my brother. Farid is a Naasibee, and therefore a kaafir. He is even worse than a kaafir. You can see my evidence for this position here http://realtashayyu....th-nasibi.html. But, you should not blindly defend Walid either. He does not deserve it.

Salam dear brother,

I am truly sorry for the hurt you have been caused. May Allah bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad to increase you in peity, give you good in this life and afterlife.

Look at my signature, and see what Farid thinks of Imam Hussain (as.).

No, I don't hate Yazid at the moment. There is a lot of dispute as to whether he ordered killing Al-Hussain within Ahlul Sunnah. So, I don't have a solid opinion about this issue yet.

See the balant statement that he has no solid opinion about this issue yet. What a balant lie.

As far as Walid is concerned, he shows love for the AhlulBayt (as.), but sometimes then he wonders, thus there is hope for him. I hope that you in your hurt heart to find a place and pray for him for the AhlulBayt (as.) to show him the good path.

I am truly and really sorry for your hurt.

Wa'Salam.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

bro saved i have known you for many years now and have always known that you were above these petty squabbles with your own brother.

our duty is to help as much as possible our brethren in any form of even correction they are undertaking.

the only time we should be tough with them is when they do dhulm and

1. do not consider it as such

2. and are not repentant/or do not want to correct themselves.

his post is not racist as far as i can understand and i don't feel my understanding is wrong.

if one is racist he is not shia, full stop.

rise above the occasion as i have always known you. it is not about you and your squabbles which matter.

(wasalam)

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Talking about objectivity. On ShiaChat we consider you a Muslim.

But on the kabeth Wahhabi forum, Shias are not considered Muslim. They have a sub-forum called, "Muslims versus Shia"

That has nothing to do with objectivity, in fact, it highlights integrity. At least they openly have a category that separates Islam (Sunni) and Shi'ism (fyi that isn't takfeer on Shi'as since it's not an exclusive statement...).

On the other hand, you have it as a part of religion (from what I understand) to consider people as Muslims simply because of the ease that comes from it (in this life) while believing that without being momin (ya'ni from accepting the Imams you've selected), this entirely lughi game, means nothing for them in akhira or even in dunya if somebody claims to be the Mahdi and is accepted as such.

However, this entire straw-man argument is meaningless and has nothing to do with objectivity as I said. If a Muslim organization gives a platform to, say, an Atheist - they don't believe the Atheist is Muslim. That doesn't mean the platform is unfair or that the people/organizers lack objectivity as far as reasonably possible (given the biases all people hold due to their upbringing and present state).

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(bismillah)

(salam)

bro saved i have known you for many years now and have always known that you were above these petty squabbles with your own brother.

our duty is to help as much as possible our brethren in any form of even correction they are undertaking.

the only time we should be tough with them is when they do dhulm and

1. do not consider it as such

2. and are not repentant/or do not want to correct themselves.

his post is not racist as far as i can understand and i don't feel my understanding is wrong.

if one is racist he is not shia, full stop.

rise above the occasion as i have always known you. it is not about you and your squabbles which matter.

(wasalam)

I did not charge him with racism. I just mentioned my race so that readers can understand why he calls me a "[Edited Out]". Simple as that. He also thought I am going against my "masters" by opposing him. I don't know what that means. He called me a "[Edited Out]", "mother[Edited Out]er", "filthy", "kafir" and advised me to [Edited Out] myself. These are not racism-related (unlike "niggers" and "your masters"). They are simply too bad coming from one Shi'ah Muslim to another.

In any case, I asked an admin to unregister me a few days ago. I wonder why the account is still active (despite a new promise to do that yesterday). This place is so frustrating!

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That has nothing to do with objectivity, in fact, it highlights integrity. At least they openly have a category that separates Islam (Sunni) and Shi'ism (fyi that isn't takfeer on Shi'as since it's not an exclusive statement...).

However, this entire straw-man argument is meaningless and has nothing to do with objectivity as I said. If a Muslim organization gives a platform to, say, an Atheist - they don't believe the Atheist is Muslim. That doesn't mean the platform is unfair or that the people/organizers lack objectivity as far as reasonably possible (given the biases all people hold due to their upbringing and present state).

Thus, all Shia are Kuffar. Lol, when you last time had your head examined.

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That has nothing to do with objectivity, in fact, it highlights integrity. At least they openly have a category that separates Islam (Sunni) and Shi'ism (fyi that isn't takfeer on Shi'as since it's not an exclusive statement...).

On the other hand, you have it as a part of religion (from what I understand) to consider people as Muslims simply because of the ease that comes from it (in this life) while believing that without being momin (ya'ni from accepting the Imams you've selected), this entirely lughi game, means nothing for them in akhira or even in dunya if somebody claims to be the Mahdi and is accepted as such.

However, this entire straw-man argument is meaningless and has nothing to do with objectivity as I said. If a Muslim organization gives a platform to, say, an Atheist - they don't believe the Atheist is Muslim. That doesn't mean the platform is unfair or that the people/organizers lack objectivity as far as reasonably possible (given the biases all people hold due to their upbringing and present state).

I disagree completely with this analysis. It is obvious that HCY forum does NOT consider Shee'ahs to be part of Islaam, which is why they gave that category they gave. It is open takfeer. I wonder why you are trying to defend such an apparently scandalous position. It is like if SC has a forum entitled "Muslims vs Sunnees". What would that tell ya, buddy?

I do not want to go into the squabbles between Soofies and Salafees, and how both sides, though Sunnees, issue takfeer against each other. It is like that TwoBlade. Each side considers itself to be on the Haqq, and all others to be fuel for Hellfire. No Islaamic group should be crucified for holding that belief. We all hold it.

Salam dear brother,

I am truly sorry for the hurt you have been caused. May Allah bi haqe Mohammad wa alhe Mohammad to increase you in peity, give you good in this life and afterlife.

Look at my signature, and see what Farid thinks of Imam Hussain (as.).

See the balant statement that he has no solid opinion about this issue yet. What a balant lie.

As far as Walid is concerned, he shows love for the AhlulBayt (as.), but sometimes then he wonders, thus there is hope for him. I hope that you in your hurt heart to find a place and pray for him for the AhlulBayt (as.) to show him the good path.

I am truly and really sorry for your hurt.

Wa'Salam.

Please brother. I am not hurt. I just wanted to show that Walid does not deserve the kind of all-out support you are giving him. Period.

As for Farid, no doubt, that guy is as hardcore Naasibee. He is worse than a kaafir.

We all make our mistakes. We all deserve Allaah's guidance. And may Allaah guide him and me and you and all our brothers and sisters to His Pleasure.

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