Non-muslim View Of Our Holy Prophet [pbuh&hf]

[Shi3i4lyfYouTube]

(bismillah)

Salam Alaykum

Video on Youtube. Recommended.

Please share your views. I would love to see non-Muslim views of

these quotes.

Thank you!

Here is the link:

[Son of Placid]

What does Thulfiqar mean?

[titumir]

The views will not be pretty. Non Muslims believe that our Prophet(PBUH) was a violent terrorist who forced people to convert to Islam by the sword, and that is why Islam was/is as successful as it is. They get taught this in their churches and temples and synagogues.

[.IceMan.]

(pbuh)

[Son of Placid]

The views will not be pretty. Non Muslims believe that our Prophet(PBUH) was a violent terrorist who forced people to convert to Islam by the sword, and that is why Islam was/is as successful as it is. They get taught this in their churches and temples and synagogues.

Actually I've never heard a word out of a Minister or Paster. Christians believe Jesus was the last so anything after is false, no fuss, just false. Islam gets a bad rep from terrorists. no surprise there.

[Shi3i4lyfYouTube]

What does Thulfiqar mean?

Thulfiqar literally means "The double-edged"

Imam Ali's sword.

The views will not be pretty. Non Muslims believe that our Prophet(PBUH) was a violent terrorist who forced people to convert to Islam by the sword, and that is why Islam was/is as successful as it is. They get taught this in their churches and temples and synagogues.

Clearly, there should be some kind of change of heart, since their own scholars and historians (from the West), gave testimony to the beautiful nature of his [pbuh&hf] character..?

[Son of Placid]

Thanks, I figured it was something like that.

If you're the average Christian you don't care. They say a lot of nice things about Ghandi too but Christians stopped at Jesus.

I've gained a lot more respect for Muhammad and Imam Ali since being here. It's not the average Christian thing to do.

[ImAli]

The one that most Christians like to throw around is pedophile

[بعيد]

Although the typical view of a Christian has already been discussed here, I wonder if Jews are different in their perspective. Even if it's to a slight amount, maybe to a more neutral view?

[Son of Placid]

The one that most Christians like to throw around is pedophile

Sorry but the multi wife thing doesn't go over well in the West. Females under 18 are considered "jail bait". Some may find that hard to deal with.

Muhammad poses no threat to those that know better but the average Christian believes his religion leads to terrorism, some are louder than others.

I've challenged a few on their "anti Islam" opinions on Christian sites. Only one site hasn't booted me. Christian sites don't have a Muslim/Jewish/Christian debate area.

[ImAli]

Sorry but the multi wife thing doesn't go over well in the West. Females under 18 are considered "jail bait". Some may find that hard to deal with.

Muhammad poses no threat to those that know better but the average Christian believes his religion leads to terrorism, some are louder than others.

I've challenged a few on their "anti Islam" opinions on Christian sites. Only one site hasn't booted me. Christian sites don't have a Muslim/Jewish/Christian debate area.

They like to throw around Aisha and exaggerate about how young she was. They like to take quite a few years off of her and say she was 3. They just love to throw that one out. Too bad most of them don't realize their grandmothers a few generations back were probably like 11 when they married and most likely had a husband quite older. You also never find them talk about the difference in age of Mary and Joseph, for those of you who don't know who Joseph is....he is the husband they believed Mary to have (they say Joseph was around 40 and Mary no older than 14)..........if you try to bring that up they will respond with, "Oh, it was just different times."

Edited August 12, 2011 by ImAli

[placid]

Hi Shi,

I have watched the video twice to read the message, then three more times to try to understand the connection of the video to the message.

It starts with a post in the sand, and a banner.

Then, one hand touching others,

Then, a small group sitting down, and one teaching with dramatic gestures.

Then, a large group with turbans, --- showing obvious skepticism.

Then, the black robed leader with a long chain with a cross, and holding a large crucifix in his left hand

There is some private discussion.

There is obvious skepticism and disbelief among the congregation.

--- One in a brown robe teaches something, --- the black robed man, with crucifix in hand, listens.

Not sure what the dissenters are saying to the leader with the crucifix

The black robed leader keeps on preaching with the crucifix in his right hand --- obviously more dissent and more skepticism.

--- The one in the brown robe seems to try to calm the congregation

Then, the group goes out into the country.

First a boy running, --- then the man in the black robe sees someone.

He runs violently with the crucifix, --- another man joins him.

They run to where two people are approaching and it seems one is carrying a child, and two other small children are with them.

One man goes up, takes the child, and the man who had the child disappears.

Then, two hands in the position of prayer, then opening as though to receive something, --- and two small hands coming up between them.

It ends with the two men running, and with the crucifix held high

--- The cross and the crucifix are rejected by both Jews and Muslims, and the crucifix is the symbol of the Roman Catholic Church, --- so can you explain what it means, and how it goes together with the message of Muhammad as a Prophet to his people?

I have great respect for Muhammad and have read in the long intro of Mr Pickthall’s translation of the Quran, of his humble lifestyle, before God called him to be a Prophet to Arabia and bring the people out of idolatry and back to the worship of our One God. --- And how he remained humble in his service to God.

While Muhammad was reluctant at first, he was encouraged by his wife Khadijah who prayed for God’s guidance.

After he accepted, he was God’s messenger and Prophet to the people and through the conflicts with the idolaters and the Meccan army, who were the ‘self appointed’ guardians of the temple that housed some 360 idols, --- God gave Muhammad the victory.

He removed the idols and destroyed them and established daily prayers at the Kabah, the House of Prayer, --- where the idols had been.

At his final Pilgrimage he declared the victory, as idolatry had been removed from Arabia and he had declared a ’peace’ at the fulfillment of his Mission.

--- Shortly thereafter Muhammad died and while he appointed His son-in-law, Ali, to be his successor, Ali was rejected by others who sought the leadership.

Unfortunately the ‘peace’ didn’t prevail because within two years the Muslim factions were at war among themselves.

Nothing that happened after Muhammad’s death can be blamed on him as the Quran was to be the final word to follow.

--- I would like to discuss more, but I want to know what the video is supposed to be saying.

Placid

[titumir]

Unfortunately the ‘peace’ didn’t prevail because within two years the Muslim factions were at war among themselves.

Well if we look at European history we see that the entire Christian world was at constant war with each other for a long time, until finally in 1945 they were so battered that they decided to form the EU and never fight again. Actually it was due to the constant killing and intolerance that Europeans finally got fed up and separated Church and State, and gave equality and human rights to all.

A similar situation can be seen in Pakistan, where due to the extreme sectarian intolerance prevailing there, the majority of educated people support a secular system. Actually come to think of it I believe most people on shiachat.com will support a secular system in Pakistan. At least people wouldn't get bombed every day.

[placid]

Hi Shi,

Is there no explanation for the video?

[Shi3i4lyfYouTube]

Hi Shi,

I have watched the video twice to read the message, then three more times to try to understand the connection of the video to the message.

It starts with a post in the sand, and a banner.

Then, one hand touching others,

Then, a small group sitting down, and one teaching with dramatic gestures.

Then, a large group with turbans, --- showing obvious skepticism.

Then, the black robed leader with a long chain with a cross, and holding a large crucifix in his left hand

There is some private discussion.

There is obvious skepticism and disbelief among the congregation.

--- One in a brown robe teaches something, --- the black robed man, with crucifix in hand, listens.

Not sure what the dissenters are saying to the leader with the crucifix

The black robed leader keeps on preaching with the crucifix in his right hand --- obviously more dissent and more skepticism.

--- The one in the brown robe seems to try to calm the congregation

Then, the group goes out into the country.

First a boy running, --- then the man in the black robe sees someone.

He runs violently with the crucifix, --- another man joins him.

They run to where two people are approaching and it seems one is carrying a child, and two other small children are with them.

One man goes up, takes the child, and the man who had the child disappears.

Then, two hands in the position of prayer, then opening as though to receive something, --- and two small hands coming up between them.

It ends with the two men running, and with the crucifix held high

--- The cross and the crucifix are rejected by both Jews and Muslims, and the crucifix is the symbol of the Roman Catholic Church, --- so can you explain what it means, and how it goes together with the message of Muhammad as a Prophet to his people?

I have great respect for Muhammad and have read in the long intro of Mr Pickthall’s translation of the Quran, of his humble lifestyle, before God called him to be a Prophet to Arabia and bring the people out of idolatry and back to the worship of our One God. --- And how he remained humble in his service to God.

While Muhammad was reluctant at first, he was encouraged by his wife Khadijah who prayed for God’s guidance.

After he accepted, he was God’s messenger and Prophet to the people and through the conflicts with the idolaters and the Meccan army, who were the ‘self appointed’ guardians of the temple that housed some 360 idols, --- God gave Muhammad the victory.

He removed the idols and destroyed them and established daily prayers at the Kabah, the House of Prayer, --- where the idols had been.

At his final Pilgrimage he declared the victory, as idolatry had been removed from Arabia and he had declared a ’peace’ at the fulfillment of his Mission.

--- Shortly thereafter Muhammad died and while he appointed His son-in-law, Ali, to be his successor, Ali was rejected by others who sought the leadership.

Unfortunately the ‘peace’ didn’t prevail because within two years the Muslim factions were at war among themselves.

Nothing that happened after Muhammad’s death can be blamed on him as the Quran was to be the final word to follow.

--- I would like to discuss more, but I want to know what the video is supposed to be saying.

Placid

My apologies, Placid. I wasn’t informed of any updates to this thread via notifications. I had to check myself.

As for the details in the video itself, I chose those specific scenes from the “Lantern” movie because I thought they were very symbolic.

1. The hand of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) touching fellow Muslims of various skin colours. This represents the unity of Muslims in Islam.
   
2. Then to the scene of the Christian priests who were obviously (from the gesters and reactions), insulting the Holy Prophet. I chose this scene because it shows the Prophet in his actual nature. He reacts very calmly to insults and as you can see, it clearly shows him calming his companions as they were outraged.
   
3. This whole scene was after the Holy Prophet (pbuh) gave all proofs to the Christian Priests that he is infact sent from God. They refused to accept it. So, he challenged them to “Mubahala” – an act in which 2 opposing parties pray to God to send a curse on the opposition and show who is on the truth and who is not. This is done with the consent and insistence of both parties. The scene basically shows them (the priests) bragging about them winning the Mubahala.
   

P.s. The Mubahala event has been mentioned in the Holy Quran. Refer to the “Mubahala” Ayah.

4. As for the group of 5 coming to the challenge, it is none other than the Holy Prophet (pbuh), Imam Ali, his wife Fatima Zahra and their 2 sons Hassan and Hussain peace and blessings be upon them all. They were slowly approaching the scene where the challenge took place, put a mat on the floor and sat to begin the Mubahala. The priests became very reluctant as they saw the light of God in this blessed 5, and they were sure that they would be the one to be cursed. So, one of them runs towards the Ahlulbayt to ask them not to begin the Mubahala.

The Holy Prophet was never reluctant at receiving the message from God. This is something that the Sunni brethren usually claim. They believe that the Holy Prophet was even ‘scared’ after seeing Jibra’el (a.s) … Something hard to accept.

The peace was broken right after Abu Bakr took the Khilafa for himself and waged a series of wars that lasted years on the companions who refused to accept him. The wars were collectively called “the wars of apostasy (riddah)”, as Abu Bakr claimed that his opposition have become apostates.

That is true, however, it would not be a reason to believe that the message of Islam was pointless. In the long run, people were united and inspired by the message of Islam. Even more than a millennium has passed. Look at Malcolm X and his view of Islam right before his converted. What inspired him to become a Muslim?

Peace.

Shi3i4lyf~

[placid]

Hi Shi,

I have been quite busy but I would like to comment further,

However, if it is to be a battle with 'swords,' --- we might as well leave it with my first comments about Muhammad.

However, O have a dull ballpoint pen, which is modernized to a keyboard.

And one other thing I use is the Word of God, --- and a verse in Hebrews 4 says this:

12. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit,

and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[Reshad]

(bismillah)

Salam Alaykum

Video on Youtube. Recommended.

Please share your views. I would love to see non-Muslim views of

these quotes.

Thank you!

Here is the link:

I would just like to point out the fact that i have been surscribed tto you and youtube! nice to meat you here !

[Shi3i4lyfYouTube]

I would just like to point out the fact that i have been surscribed tto you and youtube! nice to meat you here !

It's an honour for me, brother :)

JazakAllah khair

[sloth]

The views will not be pretty. Non Muslims believe that our Prophet(PBUH) was a violent terrorist who forced people to convert to Islam by the sword, and that is why Islam was/is as successful as it is. They get taught this in their churches and temples and synagogues.

This is true. I have been taught this as well. However I do not surrender to brainwash and decided to look into it for myself,

and now, actually today, I have converted to Islam im now a muslim =) ALHAMDULILLAH!

May Allah (swt) reward you all who supported me.

[ßÑíã]

JazakAllah for the above video brother, great work!, may Allah Almighty inspire you further =)

[ßÑíã]

And one other thing I use is the Word of God, --- and a verse in Hebrews 4 says this:

12. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit,

and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib (as), is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed (pbuh), out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.

Edited August 23, 2011 by ßÑíã

[s.fatima]

The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib (as), is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed (pbuh), out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.

Well explained.

[ßÑíã]

Well explained.

Thank you =).

[Jay]

Most of the negative imagery of our Prophet (pbuh) sourced by our enemies comes from Sunni Ahadith (blatant fabrications from the Ummayads). It's sad that Shi'ism isn't tapped much by non-Muslim criticism, we would have a stronger voice. Hopefully it'll get noticed more in the future.

[Praetorius]

Most of the negative imagery of our Prophet (pbuh) sourced by our enemies comes from Sunni Ahadith (blatant fabrications from the Ummayads). It's sad that Shi'ism isn't tapped much by non-Muslim criticism, we would have a stronger voice. Hopefully it'll get noticed more in the future.

There's a reason that the opposition keeps claiming the BS about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be from "Mainstream" aka Sunni Islam... You are a 101% correct.

If the Jews and Christians learn more about Aal-e-Muhammad (as) from the Shia perspective, there would be A LOT more positive views about the Prophet (pbuh).

Also, Son of Placid, I read that you defend Islam on other forums. Thank you. I will remember you in my Salatul Layl tonight Inshallah.

[placid]

Hi ???, of Post 21,

Quote: The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib , is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed , out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.

Response: --- Thanks for your comments.

As I said, I have great respect for Muhammad and I am sorry for the ‘animosity’ which has developed over the years. --- I want to express my views, but before I do, I want to respond to Shi concerning the ‘message’ of the Video.

However, the Word of God is the sharp two edged sword, the divider of truth and error, right and wrong, justice and injustice, --- and I welcome the opportunity to discuss with you and others --- on the basis that we accept the Torah, --- and the Patriarchs, Prophets and Kings, from both the OT and NT, which the Quran confirms in these verses in Surah 6:

82. Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided.

83. (God said): That is Our argument. We gave it unto Abraham against his folk. We raise unto degrees of wisdom whom We will. Lo! thy Lord is Wise, Aware.

84. And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.

85. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.

86. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one (of them) did We prefer above (Our) creatures,

87. with some of their forefathers and their offspring and their brethren; and We chose them and guided them unto a Straight Path.

--- If these were all guided unto a Straight Path, then we need to be sure we are on it, --- or else, find it again, do we not?

I read once (on Shiachat) that Muhammad said, “Don’t quote me as saying anything that isn’t in the Quran.”

--- On this basis then, we can deal with what is written and not add hadiths or commentaries. --- It was the Quran only that was revealed to Muhammad, was it not?.

My pattern has been to give the context of Scripture and not pick a line or a verse to prove a point, when it depends on what has been said either before, or after it.

As we have read above, --- certain Muslims have already said how Christians will respond, but these preconceived ideas have not been my experience.

--- As SOP said, --- before Islam became noteworthy for its terrorist activities, it was never discussed in Churches or in casual conversation.

The Christians worship God and follow Jesus. --- On the cross He said, “It is finished,” --- which meant the completion of God’s plan of salvation for those who will believe.

When you say you think ‘I will use the (sword) Word of God against you,’ --- I also welcome you to use the (sword) Word of God against our Christian faith.

Another ground rule: ---

Please don’t be offended if I say something that you personally disagree with, as though I am attacking you.

I have verified different times that I believe the Scripture written in the Quran and I believe in Muhammad as the Prophet to his people.

I hope we can discuss later.

Placid

[ßÑíã]

Hi ???, of Post 21,

Quote: The moral of the above verse is correct, however i get the feeling that you're using it against us. The two-edged sword that belonged to Ali - Son of Abu Talib , is a sword that was and will only be used for justice. The owners that it was passed down to from Ali (including himself) were men that contained the most similar characteristics to Mohammed , out of all mankind. They are his successors, protectors of the message of God The All-Just, and also a link to the Apostle himself. In conclusion: Thulfiqar (the two-edged sword) was only used in accordance to the word of God Almighty.

Response: --- Thanks for your comments.

As I said, I have great respect for Muhammad and I am sorry for the ‘animosity’ which has developed over the years. --- I want to express my views, but before I do, I want to respond to Shi concerning the ‘message’ of the Video...

Placid

Your welcome, I admire your positive view of Mohammed (pbuh). As well as your polite manners, and think that you can set a positive example in terms of that to many including myself. Your interest towards this topic is another thumbs up, if you carry on seeking the truth, God willing you will find it. I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali (as), was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God. Brother shi3i4lyf will answer you soon as your question was directed to him, peace.

[placid]

Hi Shi,

Quote from Post 15:

My apologies, Placid. I wasn’t informed of any updates to this thread via notifications. I had to check myself.

As for the details in the video itself, I chose those specific scenes from the “Lantern” movie because I thought they were very symbolic.

• The hand of the Holy Prophet touching fellow Muslims of various skin colours. This represents the unity of Muslims in Islam.

• Then to the scene of the Christian priests who were obviously (from the gesters and reactions), insulting the Holy Prophet. I chose this scene because it shows the Prophet in his actual nature. He reacts very calmly to insults and as you can see, it clearly shows him calming his companions as they were outraged.

• This whole scene was after the Holy Prophet gave all proofs to the Christian Priests that he is infact sent from God. They refused to accept it. So, he challenged them to “Mubahala” – an act in which 2 opposing parties pray to God to send a curse on the opposition and show who is on the truth and who is not. This is done with the consent and insistence of both parties. The scene basically shows them (the priests) bragging about them winning the Mubahala.

P.s. The Mubahala event has been mentioned in the Holy Quran. Refer to the “Mubahala” Ayah.

4. As for the group of 5 coming to the challenge, it is none other than the Holy Prophet , Imam Ali, his wife Fatima Zahra and their 2 sons Hassan and Hussain peace and blessings be upon them all. They were slowly approaching the scene where the challenge took place, put a mat on the floor and sat to begin the Mubahala. The priests became very reluctant as they saw the light of God in this blessed 5, and they were sure that they would be the one to be cursed. So, one of them runs towards the Ahlulbayt to ask them not to begin the Mubahala.

The Holy Prophet was never reluctant at receiving the message from God.

Response: --- Quite interesting, but all the good comments made about Muhammad were kind of lost in the ‘confrontational’ tone of the video.

Did the ‘Standard’ on the pole represent Muslims or Christians?

It appears as though there is great disagreement among the congregation and the black robed man with the long chain with a cross, and the large crucifix.

As the crucifix is a symbol of the old Roman Catholic Church, I have never known it to be used as a hand held wand. Also, I have no knowledge of the crucifix being a popular symbol before the tenth century.

During Muhammad’s ministry, I have not read of confrontations between Christians and Muslims. --- All of the differences and battles were between the Arab idolaters who worshiped some 360 idols that occupied the House of Prayer, and who were represented by the Qureysh, the Meccan army, who were the self-appointed guardians of idolatry.

During Muhammad’s mission, the Jews first welcomed him as a Prophet, but expected that he would be harmonious with them, --- but when he declared the ‘brotherhood of believers,’ --- which meant that the lowly Arab believers were equal to the Jews, they took offence, and began to oppose his teaching.

In the year that Muhammad began to teach publicly that there was only one God, the idolaters persecuted the new converts to the point that Muhammad sent them to Abyssinia, a Christian country, where they could live in safety, and would be free to worship God only.

In Mr Pickthall’s translation it says that Surah 5 was revealed between the fifth and tenth year of the Hijrah, --- so, it was after the Muslim community was well established in Madinah and was constantly growing as the Arabs were denouncing their idolatry and becoming believers, --- that this was recorded:

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84. "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85. And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- In reading the Quran and finding that the Christians recognized what Muhammad taught the truth that they already believed, --- they could have harmony as in ‘the company of the righteous.’

Notice in 85: --- Their reward is heaven.

--- So, you see, my acceptance of Muhammad as a Prophet and the message of the Quran as Gabriel revealed it to Muhammad, --- is in harmony with the Gospel message.

I have recorded this from Shiachat some time ago, whch is not in the Quran, but is significant:

(Quote from Shiachat):

The Prophet (s,), in the last year of his life, is reported to have said:

"Verily, I am leaving with you two weighty things (thaqalayn): the Book of Allah and my kindred, my household, for indeed, the two of them will never separate until they return to me by the Pond [of Kawthar on the Last Day]." (End of quote).

The first, of course, was the Quran, God’s message to the Arabs, as revealed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. --- Ali knew and taught the Quran, and it seems that God gave him wisdom through the Holy Spirit to teach all the Scriptures. This gives evidence that they had the Torah (OT) and Gospel (NT) translated into Arabic before this. The Quran was written in Arabic and that would be Ali’s language, would it not? --- Ali said:

(Quote from Shiachat):

Verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. (End of quote).

--- And the second was, his household, or family that continued in service to God, His daughter Fatima, his son in law Ali and their two sons, Hassan and Hussain.

I have other quotes where Ali and others taught from the Book of Matthew.

This is all evidence that to begin with, there was no disharmony between Muslims and Christians.

Muhammad was called of God and was obedient in his Mission as were Moses and Jesus, so I speak of Muhammad as he is identified in his lifetime. --- His Mission was to destroy idolatry from among his people and bring them back to the worship of our One God, --- which he accomplished.

Though he became like the ‘Emperor of Arabia,’ he remained humble and obedient to God, --- and he commended his immediate family as being examples to follow.

Because of my concept of Muhammad and his relationship with Christians in the Quran, I find the video to be in very bad taste (and degrading to Christians) if it was intended to impress viewers on who, and what, the true Muhammad was.

(I am interested in the Mubahala event, and will also mention some of the negative things wrongly applied to Muhammad, later.)

Placid

[shreek]

They like to throw around Aisha and exaggerate about how young she was. They like to take quite a few years off of her and say she was 3. They just love to throw that one out. Too bad most of them don't realize their grandmothers a few generations back were probably like 11 when they married and most likely had a husband quite older. You also never find them talk about the difference in age of Mary and Joseph, for those of you who don't know who Joseph is....he is the husband they believed Mary to have (they say Joseph was around 40 and Mary no older than 14)..........if you try to bring that up they will respond with, "Oh, it was just different times."

the reference to Aisha's age is more of a Sunna thing. because christian apologists to this 'paedophile' claim site Sahih Bukhari in this accusation.

as far as I know sahih bukhari is not a recognised hadith among Shia.

The age is either 6 or 9 not 3.

The point is, or the accusation is, that 'if' Mohamed was a Prophet and God revealed to him directly or through angels, he out to 'know better'.

ya3ni he should have set a new standard to follow etc...because he was not an ordinary man.

[placid]

Hi???,

Quote from Post 27

I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali , was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God.

Response: --- I have read some of what Imam Ali wrote and have been impressed by his detailed explanations. Some speakers try to cover topics or answer questions in as few words as possible, which may leave the hearer with more questions. --- Orators like Ali express themselves with wisdom and compassion.

Here is an example that I had recorded from Shiachat a few years ago.

I posted a longer article on another topic this morning, and this was included.

(I said) Ali also uses the first verses from Matthew 6 to teach his son about giving:

(Quote from Shiachat):

Matt.6

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :

Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.

But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).

(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).

The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).

--- This is the message of love and compassion that Jesus taught, so, Ali was “A Preacher of Righteousness,” and certainly a seeker of Justice.

As Jesus taught, “Love God and love your neighbor as yourself,” --- Ali expresses it in many words, --- and give a glimpse of ‘what the world could be like.’

Placid

[ßÑíã]

the reference to Aisha's age is more of a Sunna thing. because christian apologists to this 'paedophile' claim site Sahih Bukhari in this accusation.

as far as I know sahih bukhari is not a recognised hadith among Shia.

The age is either 6 or 9 not 3.

The point is, or the accusation is, that 'if' Mohamed was a Prophet and God revealed to him directly or through angels, he out to 'know better'.

ya3ni he should have set a new standard to follow etc...because he was not an ordinary man.

Well "ya3ni" the sunni school of thought abuse the image of our holy prophet (pbuh), and there "sahih" books are used as references against him, they go crazy when the western world insults him, yet they disregard whats written about him in their very own books. The majority of their hadith books are unreliable, so i suggest you do not use their proven false references to support your pathetic argument. Not an ordinary man? listen mr shrek, you either want to seek knowledge from sc or you don't, but either way do not speak of Mohammed (pbuh) with a dirty tongue, because indeed you are the unordinary man however you just do not realise it. You are just another infidel that goes with the crowd insulting what you do not understand. He set standards that dominated and still are dominating all other standards in regards to piety and a righteous way of life. Watch the video in the first post of this topic in order to get a taste of how the western world and some non-believers positively view this most pious man you call "not ordinary", indeed even these non-believers shut down your stance.

[ßÑíã]

Hi???,

Quote from Post 27

I did not mean you are using the word of God against us, rather i meant that by you stating the mentioned verse, it seemed as though you are indicating that the sword of Ali , was not used for justice in accordance with the word of God.

Response: --- I have read some of what Imam Ali wrote and have been impressed by his detailed explanations. Some speakers try to cover topics or answer questions in as few words as possible, which may leave the hearer with more questions. --- Orators like Ali express themselves with wisdom and compassion.

Here is an example that I had recorded from Shiachat a few years ago.

I posted a longer article on another topic this morning, and this was included.

(I said) Ali also uses the first verses from Matthew 6 to teach his son about giving:

(Quote from Shiachat):

Matt.6

[1] Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

[2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

[3] But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

[4] That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Imam Ali explain this issue to his son Hassan :

Remember my son, that before you is a long and arduous journey (life). The journey is not only very long, exhausting and onerous but the route is mostly through dismal, dreary and deserted regions where you will be sadly in need of refreshing, renovating and enlivening aids and helps and you cannot dispense with such provisions as to keep you going and to maintain you till the end of the journey - the Day of Judgement.

But remember not to overload yourself (do not entrust yourself with so many obligations and duties that you cannot honourably fulfil them, or with such luxurious life as to be wicked and vicious).

(Distribute your wealth amongst the poor, destitute and the needy, help others to the best of your ability and be kind and sympathetic to human beings). Thus relieve yourself from the heavy responsibility and liability of submitting an account on the Day of Judgement of how you have made use of His Bounties (of health, wealth, power and position).

The only way out of it (life) is either in Paradise or in Hell. Therefore, it is wise to send your things there beforehand so that they (good deeds) which reach there before you, prearrange for the place of your stay before you reach there because after death there is no repentance and no possibility of coming back to this world to undo the wrong done by you. (End of quote).

--- This is the message of love and compassion that Jesus taught, so, Ali was “A Preacher of Righteousness,” and certainly a seeker of Justice.

As Jesus taught, “Love God and love your neighbor as yourself,” --- Ali expresses it in many words, --- and give a glimpse of ‘what the world could be like.’

Placid

Interesting indeed, although the context of the verses in mathew 6 is difficult to understand, i can still see where you are coming from. There is no doubt that both Ali and Jesus (as) abided by justice.

[ßÑíã]

I challenge anyone to truely think negatively about Mohammed peace be upon him & his family after watching this brief biography of his life. The disappointing thing is that most people have heard the false accusations about him, yet hardly any have heard the truth about him. the link is:

This is not only beneficial to non-muslims, but also muslims, to remind us of what a great man our leader is.

[orthodox1234]

Hi everyone, its important to place the Christian view of Muhammad in light of the Christian gospel. For the New Testament writers the *necessary* distinction b/w Christian religion and other religions (specifically Judaism at that time) was that God has words of grace, and words of law. God gives us law, and he gives us gospel. For us Christians, the necessary component that is found in our scriptures is the free grace of God in the holy gospel, the announcement by God for the Christian Church that God has put us to death in his Son, for His sake and our justification. If any prophet, pope, or movement denies this, they are in disagreement with the gospel and are necessarily teaching another gospel (which is no gospel at all).

The writings of the apostles are filled w/commands, imperatives of God, or demands but they are also filled with indicatives, they tell us what is actually going on, and what God demands of us. So, for example we are told we are depraved, and evil and that we have no desire to meet the demands of God but that God demands perfect obedience from us to be justified (law) and then we are told that Christ was perfect, and sinless and his desire was to fulfill the commands of His father and He fulfilled them perfectly for us (gospel). If any religious group disagrees w/gospel, then we should break ways...there is no hope outside of being found in Jesus Christ ...'not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which comes by faith' ..

And since Islam does disagree along with its Prophet, well with all due respect, we disagree and can view him no different than teaching another gospel, one that we would view as a false gospel. As for his person, I don't know, as for his theology if Muslims are reliable reflections of it, its terrible. Its law, and only law, what we need to hear is the forgivesness of sins not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of another who has worked perfectly from the beginning. Who lived, and died in my place. He lived for me, and died for me.

Hopefully this helps, my point was to make the distinction b/w Islam and Christianity on the holy gospel.

Edited August 31, 2011 by orthodox1234

[ßÑíã]

Hi everyone, its important to place the Christian view of Muhammad in light of the Christian gospel. For the New Testament writers the *necessary* distinction b/w Christian religion and other religions (specifically Judaism at that time) was that God has words of grace, and words of law. God gives us law, and he gives us gospel. For us Christians, the necessary component that is found in our scriptures is the free grace of God in the holy gospel, the announcement by God for the Christian Church that God has put us to death in his Son, for His sake and our justification. If any prophet, pope, or movement denies this, they are in disagreement with the gospel and are necessarily teaching another gospel (which is no gospel at all).

The writings of the apostles are filled w/commands, imperatives of God, or demands but they are also filled with indicatives, they tell us what is actually going on, and what God demands of us. So, for example we are told we are depraved, and evil and that we have no desire to meet the demands of God but that God demands perfect obedience from us to be justified (law) and then we are told that Christ was perfect, and sinless and his desire was to fulfill the commands of His father and He fulfilled them perfectly for us (gospel). If any religious group disagrees w/gospel, then we should break ways...there is no hope outside of being found in Jesus Christ ...'not having a righteousness of my own that comes through the law, but that which comes by faith' ..

And since Islam does disagree along with its Prophet, well with all due respect, we disagree and can view him no different than teaching another gospel, one that we would view as a false gospel. As for his person, I don't know, as for his theology if Muslims are reliable reflections of it, its terrible. Its law, and only law, what we need to hear is the forgivesness of sins not on the basis of our works, but on the basis of another who has worked perfectly from the beginning. Who lived, and died in my place. He lived for me, and died for me.

Hopefully this helps, my point was to make the distinction b/w Islam and Christianity on the holy gospel.

Hello...

We in Islam believe that the true holy gospel is one of the divine books revealed by God The All-Just to Prophet Jesus (as), and we believe it obtained the same morals and principle as the Holy Qur'an. The word Islam translated in english means submission, and this is the true message within the gospel, the message that Jesus (as) preached. Amongst the devine books revealed through chosen prophets, The Qur'an was the final. Jesus and Mohammed (pbut) both preached that God is one in meaning, not in name, i do not know where you got your conclusion of muslims do not believe in the holy gospel from.

And by the way, we do not believe that Jesus died for our sins, or is the son of god, or is even god. The true gospel we believe in contains none of the said, whereas the gospel you believe in obviously contains this, making it different to ours.

True muslims are reliable reflections of the theology of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), the muslims you have come across that made you view it as terrible are most probably muslims living a life totally different to the life Mohammed (pbuh) taught us to live, don't be stereotype, research the true way of life he encouraged and inspired, and you will see that his theology is far from terrible. I posted a brief video of his biography in my previous post, please watch it before you judge him.

Edited August 31, 2011 by ßÑíã