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Kamranistan

Unity

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Insha'Allah you are all well & Shahur Ramadhan is beneficial for us all. TaqabAllah..

Right so basically.. I posted this in general discussions because I don't want the old Sunni/Shi'a disputes, I just want opinions that is all.

It was highlited to me in the Chatroom earlier, we were talking about unity etc and I thought it would be beneficial if it was put into a topic. So that new Muslims or ones that struggle with the whole 'unity' concept, can discuss their views here, as well as everyone else putting their take on it.

I REPEAT, PLEASE NO FIGHTING (esp in this month)

In my opinion, unity is not something that can be achieved through understanding alone, unity is something which means total peace and harmony between different faiths as well as a good nature towards one another. Now can Sunni & Shi'a achieve this, That's the real question right?

So after 1400 years, give or take, there has been no unity. So what makes all of you that say unity can exist? What's new?

I mean we all want unity, that's not the problem.. It is what is and can be realistic, let us not live in lala-land. Let us be real.

Now with realism in focus :angel:

History shows us many things, and if any of you say that history isn't needed are being very closed minded. If history wasn't important what about kerbala? Is that not important enough to get to the truth of the occurance? What about the Holy Qu'ran, isn't that too be read in context with history?

So once we know the fact and truths surrounding truths we can identify wrong doers. Now the difference between us, is that we, Shi'a believe some 'people' are enemies of Ahlulbayt (as), that's our truth. But Sunni's, you praise those certain 'people' and that is your truth. Now with that at hand..

How can we have total conviction in unity? You tell me this. If someone hurt my sister, mother, wife, brother etc.. I will not 'like' that person yes? Now if someone comes up to me and praises that person as a good person, we wont exactly be on good terms.. So we can't exactly be united..

BUT

We can be united.. Under TOLERANCE If we could just be patient to each other.. Live side by side in peace, try to understand each others faith so that we may become tolerant to one anothers views. Now that isn't unity, that is tolerance. Like our Prophet (pbuh) showed. Now if we could just do that... it would be bearable.

Unity between sunni & shi'a is tolerance, that is it.

(wasalam)

Edited by Kamran-Syed

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Insha'Allah you are all well & Shahur Ramadhan is beneficial for us all. TaqabAllah..

Right so basically.. I posted this in general discussions because I don't want the old Sunni/Shi'a disputes, I just want opinions that is all.

It was highlited to me in the Chatroom earlier, we were talking about unity etc and I thought it would be beneficial if it was put into a topic. So that new Muslims or ones that struggle with the whole 'unity' concept, can discuss their views here, as well as everyone else putting their take on it.

I REPEAT, PLEASE NO FIGHTING (esp in this month)

In my opinion, unity is not something that can be achieved through understanding alone, unity is something which means total peace and harmony between different faiths as well as a good nature towards one another. Now can Sunni & Shi'a achieve this, That's the real question right?

So after 1400 years, give or take, there has been no unity. So what makes all of you that say unity can exist? What's new?

I mean we all want unity, that's not the problem.. It is what is and can be realistic, let us not live in lala-land. Let us be real.

Now with realism in focus :angel:

History shows us many things, and if any of you say that history isn't needed are being very closed minded. If history wasn't important what about kerbala? Is that not important enough to get to the truth of the occurance? What about the Holy Qu'ran, isn't that too be read in context with history?

So once we know the fact and truths surrounding truths we can identify wrong doers. Now the difference between us, is that we, Shi'a believe some 'people' are enemies of Ahlulbayt (as), that's our truth. But Sunni's, you praise those certain 'people' and that is your truth. Now with that at hand..

How can we have total conviction in unity? You tell me this. If someone hurt my sister, mother, wife, brother etc.. I will not 'like' that person yes? Now if someone comes up to me and praises that person as a good person, we wont exactly be on good terms.. So we can't exactly be united..

BUT

We can be united.. Under TOLERANCE If we could just be patient to each other.. Live side by side in peace, try to understand each others faith so that we may become tolerant to one anothers views. Now that isn't unity, that is tolerance. Like our Prophet (pbuh) showed. Now if we could just do that... it would be bearable.

Unity between sunni & shi'a is tolerance, that is it.

(wasalam)

Ayatollah Khomeini path of resistance is the only way of life. As Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah stated the path of the Khomeini leads us to the path of the Mahdi. This ramadan might be the last one before the great war that leads to the justice we all want.

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Ayatollah Khomeini path of resistance is the only way of life. As Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah stated the path of the Khomeini leads us to the path of the Mahdi. This ramadan might be the last one before the great war that leads to the justice we all want.

Umm okay, your view i guess.

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Ethically, Sunnism and Shiism are identical. However, they differ on many of the finer details, which are important--mind you, I'm not saying that they are not. However, it isn't very wise to delve on issues that haven't been resolved for 1400 years. As Muslims, we should be working hard to promote excellent ethics in the world, which is more or less what ninety percent of Islam is anyway.

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Ethically, Sunnism and Shiism are identical. However, they differ on many of the finer details, which are important--mind you, I'm not saying that they are not. However, it isn't very wise to delve on issues that haven't been resolved for 1400 years. As Muslims, we should be working hard to promote excellent ethics in the world, which is more or less what ninety percent of Islam is anyway.

+1

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Ethically, Sunnism and Shiism are identical. However, they differ on many of the finer details, which are important--mind you, I'm not saying that they are not. However, it isn't very wise to delve on issues that haven't been resolved for 1400 years. As Muslims, we should be working hard to promote excellent ethics in the world, which is more or less what ninety percent of Islam is anyway.

I don't think Halala, divorce-in-anger and imperial wars masquerading as Jihad make Sunnism ethically identical to Shi'ism. These issues, in my opinion, aren't "finer details". Some, like Jihad, had had a monumental influence on the ideology of Sunnis, the ill-effects of which we are still reaping today.

Edited by Marbles

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no unity.

no compromise.

they are not our brothers

they are not our equals.

HOWEVER

- this does not mean we should kill them, rape their women, steal their property or drive them out as is happening to our people at the hands of theirs.

- this does not mean we cannot coexist. let them revere the taghut while we follow our imams (as)

- this does not mean we should give up even an OUNCE of our faith in order to make some low class mongrel all encompassing faith just to please them

if you mean "unity" to be the above three points, then we are on the same page.

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(salam)

It seems i didnt make it clear, as far as unity can go with sunni's is tolerance, simple. As you pointed out MDM.

I am not talking about resolving issues either, all i said was tolerance is what unity between us can mean, not anything else.

Unity - no

Tolerance - yes.

Just about sums up my post :yaali:

Edited by Kamran-Syed

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no unity.

no compromise.

they are not our brothers

they are not our equals.

HOWEVER

- this does not mean we should kill them, rape their women, steal their property or drive them out as is happening to our people at the hands of theirs.

- this does not mean we cannot coexist. let them revere the taghut while we follow our imams (as)

- this does not mean we should give up even an OUNCE of our faith in order to make some low class mongrel all encompassing faith just to please them

if you mean "unity" to be the above three points, then we are on the same page.

Unity, all muslims are brothers according to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

"A person is either your BROTHER in faith or your EQUAL in humanity

Oh right, you don't believe in anything unless "The face of God" (as) has said it.

"A person is either your BROTHER in faith or your EQUAL in humanity"

Edited by .IceMan.

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Unity, all muslims are brothers according to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

"A person is either your BROTHER in faith or your EQUAL in humanity

Oh right, you don't believe in anything unless "The face of God" (as) has said it.

"A person is either your BROTHER in faith or your EQUAL in humanity"

(salam) Brother

Please refrain for sarcastic comments, if you want to get your view known then please do.. I don't want this this turning into a hate thread like many others..

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Unity, all muslims are brothers according to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

have you ever read the quran?

[11.24] The likeness of the two parties is as the blind and the deaf and the seeing and the hearing: are they equal in condition? Will you not then mind?

[16.76] And Allah sets forth a parable of two men; one of them is dumb, not able to do anything, and he is a burden to his master; wherever he sends him, he brings no good; can he be held equal with him who enjoins what is just, and he (himself) is on the right path?

[32.18] Is he then who is a believer like him who is a transgressor? They are not equal.

"A person is either your BROTHER in faith or your EQUAL in humanity

deniers of wilayah are not our brothers in anything, but they are equals in humanity so we much peacefully coexist with them. which is exactly what i said.

Oh right, you don't believe in anything unless "The face of God" (as) has said it.

my master ali (as) is the face of god, the eyes of god, the hand of god, the lion of god, the tongue of god and the friend of god.

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have you ever read the quran?

[11.24] The likeness of the two parties is as the blind and the deaf and the seeing and the hearing: are they equal in condition? Will you not then mind?

[16.76] And Allah sets forth a parable of two men; one of them is dumb, not able to do anything, and he is a burden to his master; wherever he sends him, he brings no good; can he be held equal with him who enjoins what is just, and he (himself) is on the right path?

[32.18] Is he then who is a believer like him who is a transgressor? They are not equal.

deniers of wilayah are not our brothers in anything, but they are equals in humanity so we much peacefully coexist with them. which is exactly what i said.

my master ali (as) is the face of god, the eyes of god, the hand of god, the lion of god, the tongue of god and the friend of god.

There are sunnis who believe in the wilayah of the imams, but they also believe that the closet companios are awliya too.

my master ali (as) is the face of god, the eyes of god, the hand of god, the lion of god, the tongue of god, the wali of god and the SLAVE of God and the proof of God.

Is the deen based on Imam Ali for you?

Edited by .IceMan.

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There are sunnis who believe in the wilayah of the imams, but they also believe that the closet companios are awliya too.

[ 10751 ] 3 Ü æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÖÑ ¡ Úä íÍíì ÇáÍáÈí ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä ¡ Úä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) : ÑÌá íÍÈ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æáÇ íÊÈÑà ãä ÚÏæå æíÞæá : åæ ÃÍÈ Åáí ããä ÎÇáÝå ¡ ÝÞÇá : åÐÇ ãÎáØ æåæ ÚÏæ ¡ ÝáÇ ÊÕá ÎáÝå æáÇ ßÑÇãÉ ÅáÇ Ãä ÊÊÞíå .

3 – And by his isnad form al-Husayn b. Sa`id from an-Nadr from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Isma`il al-Ju`fi. He said: I said to Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: A man who loves Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã but does not do bara’a from his enemies, and he says: He is more beloved to me from those who opposed him. So he said: This is a confused (person) and he is an enemy, so do not pray behind him, not at all, unless you fear him.

(17) ÍÏËäÇ ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä åÇÔã (ËÞÉ) Úä íÍíì Èä ÃÈí ÚãÑÇä(ÍÓä ÇáÑæÇíÉ) Úä íæäÓ (ËÞÉ) Úä Ìãíá (ËÞÉ) ÞÇá ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá:

( íÛÏæÇ ÇáäÇÓ Úáì ËáÇËÉ ÕäæÝ ÚÇáã æãÊÚáã æÛËÇÁ ÝäÍä ÇáÚáãÇÁ æÔíÚÊäÇ ÇáãÊÚáãæä æÓÇÆÑ ÇáäÇÓ ÛËÇÁ ).

17 – Ibrahim b. Hashim (thiqa) narrated to us from Yahya b. Abi `Imran (good in narration) from Yunus (thiqa) from Jamil (thiqa). He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying:

Mankind becomes three types: an `alim (one who is learned, who knows), a learner (muta`allim), and scum. So we are the `ulama and our Shi`a are the learners, and the rest of mankind are scum.

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It is important to inform you all that our Salafi/Wahabi bretheren is always ready and willing to have unity with you. They have only "Small, Innocent and minor" demand from you and that is you all should convert to hardchore Salafism/Wahabism for this purpose.

It must be quite easy for you. Otherwise get ready to be humiliated, insulted, killed and destroyed by Salafi Mujahideen because as Shah Abdullah Mohadith Dehlvi said "The blood and honor of Shia is halal on Sunnis"

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It is important to inform you all that our Salafi/Wahabi bretheren is always ready and willing to have unity with you. They have only "Small, Innocent and minor" demand from you and that is you all should convert to hardchore Salafism/Wahabism for this purpose.

It must be quite easy for you. Otherwise get ready to be humiliated, insulted, killed and destroyed by Salafi Mujahideen because as Shah Abdullah Mohadith Dehlvi said "The blood and honor of Shia is halal on Sunnis"

Forget the wahabi/salafis...

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[ 10751 ] 3 Ü æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÖÑ ¡ Úä íÍíì ÇáÍáÈí ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä ¡ Úä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) : ÑÌá íÍÈ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æáÇ íÊÈÑà ãä ÚÏæå æíÞæá : åæ ÃÍÈ Åáí ããä ÎÇáÝå ¡ ÝÞÇá : åÐÇ ãÎáØ æåæ ÚÏæ ¡ ÝáÇ ÊÕá ÎáÝå æáÇ ßÑÇãÉ ÅáÇ Ãä ÊÊÞíå .

3 – And by his isnad form al-Husayn b. Sa`id from an-Nadr from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Isma`il al-Ju`fi. He said: I said to Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: A man who loves Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã but does not do bara’a from his enemies, and he says: He is more beloved to me from those who opposed him. So he said: This is a confused (person) and he is an enemy, so do not pray behind him, not at all, unless you fear him.

(17) ÍÏËäÇ ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä åÇÔã (ËÞÉ) Úä íÍíì Èä ÃÈí ÚãÑÇä(ÍÓä ÇáÑæÇíÉ) Úä íæäÓ (ËÞÉ) Úä Ìãíá (ËÞÉ) ÞÇá ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá:

( íÛÏæÇ ÇáäÇÓ Úáì ËáÇËÉ ÕäæÝ ÚÇáã æãÊÚáã æÛËÇÁ ÝäÍä ÇáÚáãÇÁ æÔíÚÊäÇ ÇáãÊÚáãæä æÓÇÆÑ ÇáäÇÓ ÛËÇÁ ).

17 – Ibrahim b. Hashim (thiqa) narrated to us from Yahya b. Abi `Imran (good in narration) from Yunus (thiqa) from Jamil (thiqa). He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying:

Mankind becomes three types: an `alim (one who is learned, who knows), a learner (muta`allim), and scum. So we are the `ulama and our Shi`a are the learners, and the rest of mankind are scum.

You must take ahadith in context.

Imam isn't telling us to call people scum, only Allah or a representative can decide that. Did you ever see Rasool Allah (sawa) fighting with the Jews or Christians or even with the munafiq?

Imam Sadiq was once asked, How do we deal with the Sunnis? He replied, See how I deal with them. This statement is enough.

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[ 10751 ] 3 Ü æÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÇáäÖÑ ¡ Úä íÍíì ÇáÍáÈí ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä ¡ Úä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) : ÑÌá íÍÈ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) æáÇ íÊÈÑà ãä ÚÏæå æíÞæá : åæ ÃÍÈ Åáí ããä ÎÇáÝå ¡ ÝÞÇá : åÐÇ ãÎáØ æåæ ÚÏæ ¡ ÝáÇ ÊÕá ÎáÝå æáÇ ßÑÇãÉ ÅáÇ Ãä ÊÊÞíå .

3 – And by his isnad form al-Husayn b. Sa`id from an-Nadr from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Isma`il al-Ju`fi. He said: I said to Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: A man who loves Amir al-Mu'mineen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã but does not do bara'a from his enemies, and he says: He is more beloved to me from those who opposed him. So he said: This is a confused (person) and he is an enemy, so do not pray behind him, not at all, unless you fear him.

Why would Infallible Imams a.s condemn people for their ignorance? What kind of justice is that? I can understand if an individual loves Ameer ul Momineen as well as his oppressors in the presence of the Infallibles (who are there to clarify all doubts) but what crime have the fallibles of today committed when Allah has kept us away from approaching His Hujjat? There is so much doubt and confusion amongst our scholars and in Islamic texts so why would our Imams blame laymen for being confused?

(17) ÍÏËäÇ ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä åÇÔã (ËÞÉ) Úä íÍíì Èä ÃÈí ÚãÑÇä(ÍÓä ÇáÑæÇíÉ) Úä íæäÓ (ËÞÉ) Úä Ìãíá (ËÞÉ) ÞÇá ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá:

( íÛÏæÇ ÇáäÇÓ Úáì ËáÇËÉ ÕäæÝ ÚÇáã æãÊÚáã æÛËÇÁ ÝäÍä ÇáÚáãÇÁ æÔíÚÊäÇ ÇáãÊÚáãæä æÓÇÆÑ ÇáäÇÓ ÛËÇÁ ).

17 – Ibrahim b. Hashim (thiqa) narrated to us from Yahya b. Abi `Imran (good in narration) from Yunus (thiqa) from Jamil (thiqa). He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã saying:

Mankind becomes three types: an `alim (one who is learned, who knows), a learner (muta`allim), and scum. So we are the `ulama and our Shi`a are the learners, and the rest of mankind are scum.

It makes sense if a person who is not willing to listen to or learn from an Infallible Imam is deemed a 'scum'. But we can't use this reference to judge all non-shia muslims of today, can we?

Salams

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(17) حدثنا إبراهيم بن هاشم (ثقة) عن يحيى بن أبي عمران(حسن الرواية) عن يونس (ثقة) عن جميل (ثقة) قال سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول:

( يغدوا الناس على ثلاثة صنوف عالم ومتعلم وغثاء فنحن العلماء وشيعتنا المتعلمون وسائر الناس غثاء ).

17 – Ibrahim b. Hashim (thiqa) narrated to us from Yahya b. Abi `Imran (good in narration) from Yunus (thiqa) from Jamil (thiqa). He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying:

Mankind becomes three types: an `alim (one who is learned, who knows), a learner (muta`allim), and scum. So we are the `ulama and our Shi`a are the learners, and the rest of mankind are scum.

(salam)

When our imams (as) talk about ‘their shi’a’ is this the kind of person they are talking about?

Imam Muhammad Baqir [a] told Jabir: "Is it enough for a person to (merely) embellish (oneself) as a Shi'ah (follower) by professing love of us, Ahlul-Bayt? Nay! By Allah, a person is not our follower except the one who fears Allah and obeys Him. O' Jabir! Our followers are not recognized save by humility; submission; honesty; praising Allah abundantly; fasting and prayers; filial devotion; attending to the poor, needy, debtors, and orphans who live near him; saying the truth; reciting the Qur'an; withholding the tongue from people except for benediction; and being trustworthy for relatives in any affairs..."

Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 74

And the above description is quite mild compared to some of the ahadith in ‘sifat ush-shi’a’ which seem (to me and I’m sure to a lot of others) extremely hard to live up to, perhaps many of us are scum and should take a look at ourselves and try to reform our own behaviour before worrying about what insults we are going to aim at the 'sunnis', people shouting about how much they love Imam Ali (as) and cursing his enemies is not the imams description of what a shi’a is (based on what I have read at any rate) is

As for the question of unity, clearly we have big differences, but we also have many things in common, why not try to dialogue with those who are willing to dialogue and leave the others to their fate, we all have to live on this earth, and although it is just a wave, why not try and make it as pleasant as possible, it is also our duty to bring people to the truth, there are ways to this and ways not to do this.

It is also interesting to note that those who hate the ‘sunnis’ the most are always basing their religious practices on what is in ‘sunni’ books, third shahada in adhan, tatbir, even public cursing to my mind seems more in line with what Imam Ali (as)’s enemis used to do, than what he (as) used to do.

ws

Edited by ShahHussain

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(salam)

When our imams (as) talk about ‘their shi’a’ is this the kind of person they are talking about?

Imam Muhammad Baqir [a] told Jabir: "Is it enough for a person to (merely) embellish (oneself) as a Shi'ah (follower) by professing love of us, Ahlul-Bayt? Nay! By Allah, a person is not our follower except the one who fears Allah and obeys Him. O' Jabir! Our followers are not recognized save by humility; submission; honesty; praising Allah abundantly; fasting and prayers; filial devotion; attending to the poor, needy, debtors, and orphans who live near him; saying the truth; reciting the Qur'an; withholding the tongue from people except for benediction; and being trustworthy for relatives in any affairs..."

Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 74

And the above description is quite mild compared to some of the ahadith in ‘sifat ush-shi’a’ which seem (to me and I’m sure to a lot of others) extremely hard to live up to, perhaps many of us are scum and should take a look at ourselves and try to reform our own behaviour before worrying about what insults we are going to aim at the 'sunnis', people shouting about how much they love Imam Ali (as) and cursing his enemies is not the imams description of what a shi’a is (based on what I have read at any rate) is

As for the question of unity, clearly we have big differences, but we also have many things in common, why not try to dialogue with those who are willing to dialogue and leave the others to their fate, we all have to live on this earth, and although it is just a wave, why not try and make it as pleasant as possible, it is also our duty to bring people to the truth, there are ways to this and ways not to do this.

It is also interesting to note that those who hate the ‘sunnis’ the most are always basing their religious practices on what is in ‘sunni’ books, third shahada in adhan, tatbir, even public cursing to my mind seems more in line with what Imam Ali (as)’s enemis used to do, than what he (as) used to do.

ws

Thanks for that post bro :yaali:

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Why would Infallible Imams a.s condemn people for their ignorance? What kind of justice is that? I can understand if an individual loves Ameer ul Momineen as well as his oppressors in the presence of the Infallibles (who are there to clarify all doubts) but what crime have the fallibles of today committed when Allah has kept us away from approaching His Hujjat? There is so much doubt and confusion amongst our scholars and in Islamic texts so why would our Imams blame laymen for being confused?

Because the research of knowledge is obligatory (fard). With your reasoning, I will not learn the fiqh...and I will drink wine (al-khimr)...oups I was ignorant ^^

Also, why you don't apply your logic to al-wahhabine. Al-wahhabi is ignorant as "sunni"?

wa salam.

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Succinct and to the point +1

Having this attitude of tolerance (only) means that we have a superficial idea of religious identity. In other words, claiming to be a shia is good enough a reason to confirm our survival via such references as quoted by br Macisaac.

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It is also interesting to note that those who hate the ‘sunnis’ the most are always basing their religious practices on what is in ‘sunni’ books, third shahada in adhan, tatbir, even public cursing to my mind seems more in line with what Imam Ali (as)’s enemis used to do, than what he (as) used to do.

ws

Be a man and say clearly that the Ayatollah Sadiq Shirazi (ha), or Ayatollah Muhamad Shirazi, or Ayatollah Mohammad Mehdi Shirazi or Ayatollah Rouhani, etc, are ignorant...

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Because the research of knowledge is obligatory (fard). With your reasoning, I will not learn the fiqh...and I will drink wine (al-khimr)...oups I was ignorant ^^

Ofcourse research of knowledge is obligatory but you seem to believe that past centuries of Islamic history have resolved all the issues for us. Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a sunni muslim who loves them as well as those personalities known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the sunni version to be accurate?

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(salam)

When our imams (as) talk about ‘their shi’a’ is this the kind of person they are talking about?

Imam Muhammad Baqir [a] told Jabir: "Is it enough for a person to (merely) embellish (oneself) as a Shi'ah (follower) by professing love of us, Ahlul-Bayt? Nay! By Allah, a person is not our follower except the one who fears Allah and obeys Him. O' Jabir! Our followers are not recognized save by humility; submission; honesty; praising Allah abundantly; fasting and prayers; filial devotion; attending to the poor, needy, debtors, and orphans who live near him; saying the truth; reciting the Qur'an; withholding the tongue from people except for benediction; and being trustworthy for relatives in any affairs..."

Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 74

And the above description is quite mild compared to some of the ahadith in ‘sifat ush-shi’a’ which seem (to me and I’m sure to a lot of others) extremely hard to live up to, perhaps many of us are scum and should take a look at ourselves and try to reform our own behaviour before worrying about what insults we are going to aim at the 'sunnis', people shouting about how much they love Imam Ali (as) and cursing his enemies is not the imams description of what a shi’a is (based on what I have read at any rate) is

As for the question of unity, clearly we have big differences, but we also have many things in common, why not try to dialogue with those who are willing to dialogue and leave the others to their fate, we all have to live on this earth, and although it is just a wave, why not try and make it as pleasant as possible, it is also our duty to bring people to the truth, there are ways to this and ways not to do this.

It is also interesting to note that those who hate the ‘sunnis’ the most are always basing their religious practices on what is in ‘sunni’ books, third shahada in adhan, tatbir, even public cursing to my mind seems more in line with what Imam Ali (as)’s enemis used to do, than what he (as) used to do.

ws

Lol, you have nothing better to post about except for the 3rd shahadah and tatbeer. Open your mind, there's more to tashayyu than that. Unity is not incumbent on abandoning these acts and if it was then we might as well take out "hayya ala khayr al 'amal".

As to public cursing, isn't mubahala a public curse? Didn't the Imam curse Yunus ibn al Dhabaan while he was at the ka'ba? Don't criticize the lack of reading by others when you haven't done any yourself.

Anyways the Imams gave a definition of what the proper ummah is, take it or leave it.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ بْنِ الْمُهْتَدِي عَنْ عَبْدِ الله بْنِ جُنْدَبٍ أَنَّهُ كَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) أَمَّا بَعْدُ فَإِنَّ مُحَمَّداً (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) كَانَ أَمِينَ الله فِي خَلْقِهِ فَلَمَّا قُبِضَ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) كُنَّا أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَرَثَتَهُ فَنَحْنُ أُمَنَاءُ الله فِي أَرْضِهِ عِنْدَنَا عِلْمُ الْبَلايَا وَالْمَنَايَا وَأَنْسَابُ الْعَرَبِ وَمَوْلِدُ الاسْلامِ وَإِنَّا لَنَعْرِفُ الرَّجُلَ إِذَا رَأَيْنَاهُ بِحَقِيقَةِ الايمَانِ وَحَقِيقَةِ النِّفَاقِ وَإِنَّ شِيعَتَنَا لَمَكْتُوبُونَ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ وَأَسْمَاءِ آبَائِهِمْ أَخَذَ الله عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَيْهِمُ الْمِيثَاقَ يَرِدُونَ مَوْرِدَنَا وَيَدْخُلُونَ مَدْخَلَنَا لَيْسَ عَلَى مِلَّةِ الاسْلامِ غَيْرُنَا وَغَيْرُهُمْ نَحْنُ النُّجَبَاءُ النُّجَاةُ وَنَحْنُ أَفْرَاطُ الانْبِيَاءِ وَنَحْنُ أَبْنَاءُ الاوْصِيَاءِ وَنَحْنُ الْمَخْصُوصُونَ فِي كِتَابِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَنَحْنُ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِكِتَابِ الله وَنَحْنُ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِرَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَنَحْنُ الَّذِينَ شَرَعَ الله لَنَا دِينَهُ فَقَالَ فِي كِتَابِهِ شَرَعَ لَكُمْ يَا آلَ مُحَمَّدٍ مِنَ الدِّينِ ما وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحاً قَدْ وَصَّانَا بِمَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحاً وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنا إِلَيْكَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ وَما وَصَّيْنا بِهِ إِبْراهِيمَ وَمُوسى‏ وَعِيسى‏ فَقَدْ عَلَّمَنَا وَبَلَّغَنَا عِلْمَ مَا عَلِمْنَا وَاسْتَوْدَعَنَ ا عِلْمَهُمْ نَحْنُ وَرَثَةُ أُولِي الْعَزْمِ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ يَا آلَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَلا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ وَكُونُوا عَلَى جَمَاعَةٍ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَنْ أَشْرَكَ بِوَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ ما تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ وَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ الله يَا مُحَمَّدُ يَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ مَنْ يُجِيبُكَ إِلَى وَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام).

وعن علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن حريز، عن زرارة، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : الكفر أعظم من الشرك، فمن اختار على الله عز وجل، وأبى الطاعة، وأقام على الكبائر، فهو كافر. ومن نصب دينا غيردين المؤمنين فهومشرك.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz from Zurara from Abu Ja`far ( عليه السلام ) in a hadith (wherein) he said: Kufr is greater than shirk, so one who chooses upon (against?) Allah `azza wa jalla, and declines obedience, and persists upon the great sins, then he is a kafir. And one who sets up (i.e. chooses) a religion other than the religion of the believers, then he is a mushrik.

Source: Al Kafi Volume 2 Page 384

Grading: Hasan kal Saheeh

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/preface-of-the-ibadat/kufr-of-one-who-rejects-the-daruriyat

Edited by haidar al karrar

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Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a sunni muslim who loves them as well as those personalities known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the sunni version to be accurate?

Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a salafi (wahhabi) "muslim" who loves them as well as those personalities (Yazid Ibn Mou'awya, Mou'awya, Abou Soufyane, etc) known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the salafi version to be accurate?

Otherwise, Where is the problem, me "Wahhabi", I believe that Allah swt has a body...

Wa salam.

Edited by Jihad-Fadak

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Be a man and say clearly that the Ayatollah Sadiq Shirazi (ha), or Ayatollah Muhamad Shirazi, or Ayatollah Mohammad Mehdi Shirazi or Ayatollah Rouhani, etc, are ignorant...

(salam)

I have no desire to get into any kind of debate with you, if you want, I can provide ahadith that the adhan is of 18 parts and the iqama is of 17, I can provide proofs of how the Imams (as) told us to mourn and what the view of rasulluah (pbuh) was on innovators, if you need, I can also privde proofs that public cursing was sunnah of the enemies of Imam Ali (as).

I never even mentioned anyone from the shirazi group, the whole world doesn't revolve around them, they will have to answer to Allah as we all will, you are the one who brings them into every debate and posting picture of them every chance you get.

You must really miss your friend 'agianstoneself' all people like you and him do are add fuel to the flames of fitna

wassalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah

just to add, i don't think they are ignorant, masha Allah, they are very traditional on many things, but on these issues, they have followed their desires, not the sunnah

Edited by ShahHussain

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