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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Kamranistan

Unity

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Because the research of knowledge is obligatory (fard). With your reasoning, I will not learn the fiqh...and I will drink wine (al-khimr)...oups I was ignorant ^^

Ofcourse research of knowledge is obligatory but you seem to believe that past centuries of Islamic history have resolved all the issues for us. Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a sunni muslim who loves them as well as those personalities known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the sunni version to be accurate?

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(salam)

When our imams (as) talk about ‘their shi’a’ is this the kind of person they are talking about?

Imam Muhammad Baqir [a] told Jabir: "Is it enough for a person to (merely) embellish (oneself) as a Shi'ah (follower) by professing love of us, Ahlul-Bayt? Nay! By Allah, a person is not our follower except the one who fears Allah and obeys Him. O' Jabir! Our followers are not recognized save by humility; submission; honesty; praising Allah abundantly; fasting and prayers; filial devotion; attending to the poor, needy, debtors, and orphans who live near him; saying the truth; reciting the Qur'an; withholding the tongue from people except for benediction; and being trustworthy for relatives in any affairs..."

Al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 74

And the above description is quite mild compared to some of the ahadith in ‘sifat ush-shi’a’ which seem (to me and I’m sure to a lot of others) extremely hard to live up to, perhaps many of us are scum and should take a look at ourselves and try to reform our own behaviour before worrying about what insults we are going to aim at the 'sunnis', people shouting about how much they love Imam Ali (as) and cursing his enemies is not the imams description of what a shi’a is (based on what I have read at any rate) is

As for the question of unity, clearly we have big differences, but we also have many things in common, why not try to dialogue with those who are willing to dialogue and leave the others to their fate, we all have to live on this earth, and although it is just a wave, why not try and make it as pleasant as possible, it is also our duty to bring people to the truth, there are ways to this and ways not to do this.

It is also interesting to note that those who hate the ‘sunnis’ the most are always basing their religious practices on what is in ‘sunni’ books, third shahada in adhan, tatbir, even public cursing to my mind seems more in line with what Imam Ali (as)’s enemis used to do, than what he (as) used to do.

ws

Lol, you have nothing better to post about except for the 3rd shahadah and tatbeer. Open your mind, there's more to tashayyu than that. Unity is not incumbent on abandoning these acts and if it was then we might as well take out "hayya ala khayr al 'amal".

As to public cursing, isn't mubahala a public curse? Didn't the Imam curse Yunus ibn al Dhabaan while he was at the ka'ba? Don't criticize the lack of reading by others when you haven't done any yourself.

Anyways the Imams gave a definition of what the proper ummah is, take it or leave it.

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ بْنِ الْمُهْتَدِي عَنْ عَبْدِ الله بْنِ جُنْدَبٍ أَنَّهُ كَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ الرِّضَا (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) أَمَّا بَعْدُ فَإِنَّ مُحَمَّداً (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) كَانَ أَمِينَ الله فِي خَلْقِهِ فَلَمَّا قُبِضَ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) كُنَّا أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَرَثَتَهُ فَنَحْنُ أُمَنَاءُ الله فِي أَرْضِهِ عِنْدَنَا عِلْمُ الْبَلايَا وَالْمَنَايَا وَأَنْسَابُ الْعَرَبِ وَمَوْلِدُ الاسْلامِ وَإِنَّا لَنَعْرِفُ الرَّجُلَ إِذَا رَأَيْنَاهُ بِحَقِيقَةِ الايمَانِ وَحَقِيقَةِ النِّفَاقِ وَإِنَّ شِيعَتَنَا لَمَكْتُوبُونَ بِأَسْمَائِهِمْ وَأَسْمَاءِ آبَائِهِمْ أَخَذَ الله عَلَيْنَا وَعَلَيْهِمُ الْمِيثَاقَ يَرِدُونَ مَوْرِدَنَا وَيَدْخُلُونَ مَدْخَلَنَا لَيْسَ عَلَى مِلَّةِ الاسْلامِ غَيْرُنَا وَغَيْرُهُمْ نَحْنُ النُّجَبَاءُ النُّجَاةُ وَنَحْنُ أَفْرَاطُ الانْبِيَاءِ وَنَحْنُ أَبْنَاءُ الاوْصِيَاءِ وَنَحْنُ الْمَخْصُوصُونَ فِي كِتَابِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَنَحْنُ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِكِتَابِ الله وَنَحْنُ أَوْلَى النَّاسِ بِرَسُولِ الله (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِه) وَنَحْنُ الَّذِينَ شَرَعَ الله لَنَا دِينَهُ فَقَالَ فِي كِتَابِهِ شَرَعَ لَكُمْ يَا آلَ مُحَمَّدٍ مِنَ الدِّينِ ما وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحاً قَدْ وَصَّانَا بِمَا وَصَّى بِهِ نُوحاً وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنا إِلَيْكَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ وَما وَصَّيْنا بِهِ إِبْراهِيمَ وَمُوسى‏ وَعِيسى‏ فَقَدْ عَلَّمَنَا وَبَلَّغَنَا عِلْمَ مَا عَلِمْنَا وَاسْتَوْدَعَنَ ا عِلْمَهُمْ نَحْنُ وَرَثَةُ أُولِي الْعَزْمِ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ أَنْ أَقِيمُوا الدِّينَ يَا آلَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَلا تَتَفَرَّقُوا فِيهِ وَكُونُوا عَلَى جَمَاعَةٍ كَبُرَ عَلَى الْمُشْرِكِينَ مَنْ أَشْرَكَ بِوَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ ما تَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ وَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ إِنَّ الله يَا مُحَمَّدُ يَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ يُنِيبُ مَنْ يُجِيبُكَ إِلَى وَلايَةِ عَلِيٍّ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام).

وعن علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن حريز، عن زرارة، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : الكفر أعظم من الشرك، فمن اختار على الله عز وجل، وأبى الطاعة، وأقام على الكبائر، فهو كافر. ومن نصب دينا غيردين المؤمنين فهومشرك.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz from Zurara from Abu Ja`far ( عليه السلام ) in a hadith (wherein) he said: Kufr is greater than shirk, so one who chooses upon (against?) Allah `azza wa jalla, and declines obedience, and persists upon the great sins, then he is a kafir. And one who sets up (i.e. chooses) a religion other than the religion of the believers, then he is a mushrik.

Source: Al Kafi Volume 2 Page 384

Grading: Hasan kal Saheeh

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/preface-of-the-ibadat/kufr-of-one-who-rejects-the-daruriyat

Edited by haidar al karrar

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Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a sunni muslim who loves them as well as those personalities known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the sunni version to be accurate?

Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a salafi (wahhabi) "muslim" who loves them as well as those personalities (Yazid Ibn Mou'awya, Mou'awya, Abou Soufyane, etc) known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the salafi version to be accurate?

Otherwise, Where is the problem, me "Wahhabi", I believe that Allah swt has a body...

Wa salam.

Edited by Jihad-Fadak

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Be a man and say clearly that the Ayatollah Sadiq Shirazi (ha), or Ayatollah Muhamad Shirazi, or Ayatollah Mohammad Mehdi Shirazi or Ayatollah Rouhani, etc, are ignorant...

(salam)

I have no desire to get into any kind of debate with you, if you want, I can provide ahadith that the adhan is of 18 parts and the iqama is of 17, I can provide proofs of how the Imams (as) told us to mourn and what the view of rasulluah (pbuh) was on innovators, if you need, I can also privde proofs that public cursing was sunnah of the enemies of Imam Ali (as).

I never even mentioned anyone from the shirazi group, the whole world doesn't revolve around them, they will have to answer to Allah as we all will, you are the one who brings them into every debate and posting picture of them every chance you get.

You must really miss your friend 'agianstoneself' all people like you and him do are add fuel to the flames of fitna

wassalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullah

just to add, i don't think they are ignorant, masha Allah, they are very traditional on many things, but on these issues, they have followed their desires, not the sunnah

Edited by ShahHussain

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(salam)

I have no desire to get into any kind of debate with you, if you want, I can provide ahadith that the adhan is of 18 parts and the iqama is of 17, I can provide proofs of how the Imams (as) told us to mourn and what the view of rasulluah (pbuh) was on innovators, if you need, I can also privde proofs that public cursing was sunna of the enemies of Imam Ali (as).

Wow ! So for exemple Ayatoallah Sadiq Shirazi (ha) ignores these hadiths? ^^

In addition, you are off-topic as a rule. You are obsessed with certain...

Edited by Jihad-Fadak

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Allow me to be the devils advocate. Tell me, why am i being cursed by your Imams for being a salafi (wahhabi) "muslim" who loves them as well as those personalities (Yazid Ibn Mou'awya, Mou'awya, Abou Soufyane, etc) known to be oppressors by your sect, even though I do not intend to appreciate/support the oppressors? What is my fault if I disagree with your side of the story? What if I find the salafi version to be accurate?

This discussion was not about Sunni Imams cursing shias muslims who love them as well as their oppressors.

Rather, it is about the Justice system as introduced by Shia School of thought. Since I am the devil's advocate, please clarify why your version of Imams are so hostile towards folks of different beliefs?

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please clarify why your version of Imams are so hostile towards folks of different beliefs?

Before answering, "different beliefs" this expression contains : sunni, wahhabi, khawarij, al-moujasimin (tajsim, etc), etc ?

wa salam.

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Before answering, "different beliefs" this expression contains : sunni, wahhabi, khawarij, al-moujasimin (tajsim, etc), etc ?

Exactly. So how come you make use of this hadith (Post # 17) which is generalized and interpreted by shia folks to call majority of other muslims scum?

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Exactly. So how come you make use of this hadith (Post # 17) which is generalized and interpreted by shia folks to call majority of other muslims scum?

Where is the problem?

majority of other muslims

Al-khawarij are muslims?

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Where is the problem?

The problem lies in the fact that on one hand we present our Imams as one of the best examples of Akhlaq (mannerism) and on the other hand, we use references to show how they were rude and unjust towards other people (muslims).

Al-khawarij are muslims?

Muslims or not, would your Imams insult them or be unjust to them anyway?

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The problem lies in the fact that on one hand we present our Imams as one of the best examples of Akhlaq (mannerism) and on the other hand, we use references to show how they were rude and unjust towards other people (muslims).

Allah swt cursed in the Qur'an....and he described some as pigs and monkeys...He described some as perverse...

You see the injustice when there is no injustice

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The problem lies in the fact that on one hand we present our Imams as one of the best examples of Akhlaq (mannerism) and on the other hand, we use references to show how they were rude and unjust towards other people (muslims).

Muslims or not, would your Imams insult them or be unjust to them anyway?

When you see the Imams speaking harshly about someone that doesn’t mean that they were rude or unjust. They were telling us that we should stay away from certain people from other religious sect because these people were not guided correctly.

We also have numerous examples and hadiths when the Imams have shown kindness and respect even towards people who insulted them and their family. And we have seen that showing such kindness does in fact help in converting someone from a non-Shia sect to the path of Ahlul Bayt.

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When you see the Imams speaking harshly about someone that doesn’t mean that they were rude or unjust. They were telling us that we should stay away from certain people from other religious sect because these people were not guided correctly.

We also have numerous examples and hadiths when the Imams have shown kindness and respect even towards people who insulted them and their family. And we have seen that showing such kindness does in fact help in converting someone from a non-Shia sect to the path of Ahlul Bayt.

You are right.

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