Who Was The Worst Of The 3 Caliphs?

abubakr786 · August 4, 2011

I really don't know much about them, but I know they are really bad. So who is the worst? I think Umar like raped a woman or something, I know Abu Bakr stole Imam's Ali's title to the position of the Caliph. Didn't one of them like kill Bibi Fatima?

alialiali · August 4, 2011

I really don't know much about them, but I know they are really bad. So who is the worst? I think Umar like raped a woman or something, I know Abu Bakr stole Imam's Ali's title to the position of the Caliph. Didn't one of them like kill Bibi Fatima?

i think all 3 are seen at the same level

Abu'l Khattab · August 4, 2011

Omar omar omar omar omar.

zaynab- · August 4, 2011

Abu Bakr and Umar were the ones who conspired to take away the caliphate from Imam Ali (as). I don't think Uthman was involved at that time, he wasn't even in Saqifa. But its bad enough that all 3 of them denied Imam Ali his right. Abu Bakr also refused to give Bibi Fatima her rightful inheritance, the land of Fadak.

Umar attacked the house of Imam Ali and Sayyeda Fatima (as). and she died because of those injuries. So yes he did kill her. whether intentionally or unintentionally.

During Uthman's caliphate he favoured his relatives over others in regards to powerful positions. For example he made Walid bin Uqbah the governor of Kufa (I think walid was the foster brother of uthman).

Personally I believe Umar was the worst of the 3, he seems more cunning and crafty. The outcome of saqifa was also due to his meddling. He nominated Abu Bakr in the first place. Apart from that he behaved aggressively towards Imam Ali's household. He stormed their house, no respect for the family of the Holy Prophet. Killed the daughter of the Prophet. Arrested the successor of the Prophet. His behaviour at the battle of Uhud shows how much faith he had. Also his actions at the deathbed of the Prophet, when the prophet wanted to write his will.

But all 3 of them are seen to be equally bad because they denied Imam Ali his right, and didn't adhere to the will of the Prophet, and the command of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. That is definitely their biggest sin, amongst many manyyyyy others.

Replicant · August 4, 2011

Umar is worst for me. He influenced Abu Bakr a lot and then himself was bad.

August 4, 2011

I think all 3 of them set new and unprecedented standards of "kameengi(zalalat)" on their own different levels.. they were truly champions at that if not in the battlefields.

learning22 · August 4, 2011

the real question is, why is your username abubakr?

Shia_Debater · August 4, 2011

the real question is, why is your username abubakr?

loooooooooooooooooool

14infallibles · August 4, 2011

Omar omar omar omar omar.

+1

Rocke · August 4, 2011

They were good enough for Imam Ali (ra) and his descendents to name their sons after them. As for Umar Ibn Khattab (ra) he's good enough for Imam Ali (ra) to be the husband of his daughter Umm Kulthum.

حميد بن زياد، عن ابن سماعة، عن محمد بن زياد، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن معاوية ابن عمار، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: سألته عن المرأة المتوفى عنها زوجها أتعتد في بيتها أو حيث شاءت؟ قال: بل حيث شاءت، إن عليا عليه السلام لما توفي عمر أتى أم كلثوم فانطلق بها إلى بيته

Humayd Ibn Ziyaad, from Ibn Samaa'ah, from Muhammad ibn Ziyaad, from Abdullah Ibn Sinaan, from Muawiyah ibn Amir, from Abi Abdillah alaihissalaam, (Muawiyah) said: "I asked about a women of the dead, must she do iddah in her house or in any place of her willing?" He (Abu Abdillah) said: She can do Iddah in any place of her willing, for Aliy alaihissalaam when Umar died, he took Umm Kulthum and went to his house". (Furuu' al-Kaafi, 6/117, Daar al-Adhwaa, Beirut)

- Humayd Ibn Ziyaad is an Aalim Jaleel al-Qadr, has vast knowledge and many writings, and is thiqah. (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/284

- Ibn Sama'ah, he's al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Sama'ah, a renowned Shia Faqih, has many ahadeeth and is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/225)

- Muhammad ibn Ziyaad, the complete name is Muhammad bin Al-Hasan bin Ziyaad Al-‘Attar, is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 2/91)

- Abdullah ibn Sinaan, a renowned Kufian Shia Imam, he is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/487)

- Muawiyah ibn Ammar, one who is very well known and lead the Shia ahadeeth narration from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq in Kufah, one who is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 2/239)

Edited August 4, 2011 by Rocke

ana_ma3a_al_haq · August 4, 2011

I really don't know much about them, but I know they are really bad. So who is the worst? I think Umar like raped a woman or something, I know Abu Bakr stole Imam's Ali's title to the position of the Caliph. Didn't one of them like kill Bibi Fatima?

such decisions should be made by God and there taqwa to him Alaahu alem

Merdan · August 4, 2011

From al-islam.org (an authentic site for shia knowledge)

"Omar Ibne Khattab had always shown his love and respect for Hussain. Whenever Hussain entered the mosque, the Caliph would let him sit beside him and tell the companions to listen to what this young man says. They all valued his advice even at that young age."

http://www.al-islam.org/kaaba14/6.htm

:angel:

no matter how much shias want to wish, the historical facts are, the first 3 caliphs radiAllahu Anhom, sincerely loved Imam Ali RA and sought his council, and awarded him high positions.

btw, this erases any doubt that "abubakr786" was never a sunni to begin with.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Merdan

Rocke · August 4, 2011

Masha Allah, what a beautiful bond. :cry:

Rasul · August 4, 2011

Omar ibn Khattab!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rasul · August 4, 2011

They were good enough for Imam Ali (ra) and his descendents to name their sons after them.
Imam Ali (as) "I shall name this child after my brother Uthman bin Nat'eoon".
Munthee'ala Mahal Volume; 1
As for Umar Ibn Khattab (ra) he's good enough for Imam Ali (ra) to be the husband of his daughter Umm Kulthum.
bakri lies exposed
It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you (Ali and Abbass) thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I [umer] have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali) thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. .......
Sunni references:
Sahih Muslim , Book 19, Number 4349
Humayd Ibn Ziyaad, from Ibn Samaa'ah, from Muhammad ibn Ziyaad, from Abdullah Ibn Sinaan, from Muawiyah ibn Amir, from Abi Abdillah alaihissalaam, (Muawiyah) said: "I asked about a women of the dead, must she do iddah in her house or in any place of her willing?" He (Abu Abdillah) said: She can do Iddah in any place of her willing, for Aliy alaihissalaam when Umar died, he took Umm Kulthum and went to his house". (Furuu' al-Kaafi, 6/117, Daar al-Adhwaa, Beirut)
- Humayd Ibn Ziyaad is an Aalim Jaleel al-Qadr, has vast knowledge and many writings, and is thiqah. (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/284
- Ibn Sama'ah, he's al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Sama'ah, a renowned Shia Faqih, has many ahadeeth and is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/225)
- Muhammad ibn Ziyaad, the complete name is Muhammad bin Al-Hasan bin Ziyaad Al-‘Attar, is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 2/91)
- Abdullah ibn Sinaan, a renowned Kufian Shia Imam, he is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 1/487)
- Muawiyah ibn Ammar, one who is very well known and lead the Shia ahadeeth narration from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq in Kufah, one who is thiqah (Jami al-Ruwaat, 2/239)
"People have assumed that Umar married Umme Kalthum binte Fatima, rather he married Umme Kalthum binte Jarweela Khuzeema"
Tareekh al Qum Shaykh Saduq, by Muhammad Nishapur page 193, published in Tehran
"Umar bin Adheena asked Imam Ja'far Sadiq (as) 'People claim that 'Ali married his daughter to such a person'. The Imam, who was until then sitting down, stood up and said angrily, "Whoever holds such a viewpoint is misled." Subhanallah! Was Imam 'Ali unable to free his daughter from their clutches? He could have stood between them and her to protect, they have fabricated a lie".
Nasehkul Tawareekh Volume 3 page 408:
bakri lies exposed READ HERE MORE ; http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/umme_kulthum/en/chap1.php

no matter how much shias want to wish, the historical facts are, the first 3 caliphs radiAllahu Anhom, sincerely loved Imam Ali RA and sought his council, and awarded him high positions.
It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you (Ali and Abbass) thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I [umer] have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you (Ali) thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. .......
Sunni references:
Sahih Muslim , Book 19, Number 4349
.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Rasul

Rocke · August 4, 2011

Rasul, the only one you're exposing is the inconsistencies of your sad sect of Shia 12 Imam, here Imam Sadiq say A and on the other page Imam Sadiq say B, made him look like a confused person instead of a masoom.

And I found it funny how Imam Ali would explain why he named his son with Uthman, and not when he named his son with Umar TWICE :angel:

Anyhow, Imam Ali didn't have any single debt to Uthman but he put Imam Hasan and Imam Husain guarding his house risking his sons life while he could actually order another people, and slapped them when Uthman was killed, this is the sign of love if not the utmost respect from Imam Ali to Uthman.

As for that fadak hadith, why did you mutilate it and not serving the complete one, did you do that on purpose? No wonder though.

zaheerhusain · August 4, 2011

I really don't know much about them, but I know they are really bad. So who is the worst? I think Umar like raped a woman or something, I know Abu Bakr stole Imam's Ali's title to the position of the Caliph. Didn't one of them like kill Bibi Fatima?

Vigilare · August 4, 2011

"Umar bin Adheena asked Imam Ja'far Sadiq (as) 'People claim that 'Ali married his daughter to such a person'. The Imam, who was until then sitting down, stood up and said angrily, "Whoever holds such a viewpoint is misled." Subhanallah! Was Imam 'Ali unable to free his daughter from their clutches? He could have stood between them and her to protect, they have fabricated a lie".
Nasehkul Tawareekh Volume 3 page 408:

According to this, Imam Ali didn't do anything to protect Bibi Fatima a.s. but would have been able to stop Umar marrying his daughter? This would only have been a few years after Bibi Fatima's death anyway.

zaheerhusain · August 4, 2011

My dear . Computer today is the richest, easiest and least expensive sourse of information , read as much as you can,then of the questions you posed will be answered if you open my blog site zaheerhusain.multiply.com/blog . If you bring your ears close , I shall whisper in it "the 2nd was the worst ", no doubt but frankly you can't compre them each, 'ek se barh kay ek '

**Abbas.** · August 4, 2011

And I found it funny how Imam Ali would explain why he named his son with Uthman, and not when he named his son with Umar TWICE :angel:

1) How do you know that it was Imam Ali who named his son Umar?

2) Do you know whether His son was named in memory and love for Umar the second Caliph?

3) Hypothetically speaking, if the son was named by someone else in the family or tribe and had Imam Ali a.s objected, wouldn't the opponents of Islam have complained that the Infallible Imam of Islam took matters personally rather than being concerned with religion? (Do you remember that Imam Ali let go of his enemy who spat at Him on the battle field?)

4) Just cz a son of Imam Ali a.s is named Umar (assuming that historical report is correct), should we let go of all other reports which clearly refer to the injustice at the hands of the second caliph? Is that the kind of justice Islam preaches?

Anyhow, Imam Ali didn't have any single debt to Uthman but he put Imam Hasan and Imam Husain guarding his house risking his sons life while he could actually order another people, and slapped them when Uthman was killed, this is the sign of love if not the utmost respect from Imam Ali to Uthman.

Uthman pretty much begged Imam Ali to help him at various occasions. By the way Imam Ali did not attend Uthman's funeral - sign of love.

As for that fadak hadith, why did you mutilate it and not serving the complete one, did you do that on purpose? No wonder though.

We have references in both sunni and shia text in which Syeda Fatima negated that argument from Quran. Don't we muslims believe that any reported hadith/narration which clearly goes against Quran is false/inauthentic? - Food for thought.

Fi-Amanillah

zaheerhusain · August 4, 2011

There is nothing in a name , those were the most common popular names of the time and hazrat Ali (a s ) naming any of his son

similer to theirs means nothing . Sunni ahadees , some are saheeh some falase and fabricated though most included in saheeh muslim and saheeh bokhari if all of them are saheeh then this is also saheeh that Allah put one of his massive leg to fill up empty space in Jahannum or Allah created Adam in his own image etc . So we believe only Qora'an and whatever it may be if it clashes with clear logic , it is rejected . It is just impossible that Maula Ali (a s ) will marry his minor daughter to the old fellow who was the killer of her brother (unborn ) and mother .Yes the lady married to omar carried similer name . It is true H. Ali (a s ) was often consulted by them but was friendly is absurd . He never collaborated in any of their battles . As far as putting his two prinsce on security duty of Usman is as absurd as their legitimacy of khilafat which they treacherously usurped but Maula (a s ) was never keen on such temporal position . He was undisputed divine Khalifatul Muslemeen Bila fasl on which Umar and AbuBakr had given his allegiance at Ghadeer e Khum witnessed by more than lakh hajis. In this context see the following four Videos on Youtube , it will convince and clear everything provided they realy want to know the Truth not they have been fed or read in so called Saheeh.

1.www.abubakr.org (can you handle the truth? ), 2. Who killed Prophet Mohammad ? 3. Who killed Ayesha ? 4. Maulana Ishaq Shia sunni Unity Are Shia Kafir?

I am from Delhi India all right , but presently staying in Sydney Australia since Jan . and Allah willing shall be back home in Sept.

When I reached here the first function I attended was a Lecture by one of the most learned Sheikh who was formerly a Sunni

Aalim . used to teach and recieved such enlightenment that today he is the most eloquent , reverened Zakir e Ahlebayt both in English and Arabic . Those interested to read my articles may access to my Blog site : www.zaheerhusain.multiply.com/blog

Rasul · August 4, 2011

Rasul, the only one you're exposing is the inconsistencies of your sad sect of Shia 12 Imam, here Imam Sadiq say A and on the other page Imam Sadiq say B, made him look like a confused person instead of a masoom.
The only one who is confused is you and your bakri friends
And I found it funny how Imam Ali would explain why he named his son with Uthman, and not when he named his son with Umar TWICE[/b:
it's funny how you claimed that Imam Ali (as) named his sons after " 3 Khalifs" now you are talking about "Umar ibn Khattab" was Umar ibn Khattab first one to have this name or this name is famous name and many arabs had this name let see
Umar al Aslama
Umar al Jamai
Umar bin Hakim Salma
Umar bin Salim Khuzamee
Umar bin Suraqa Qurshee
Umar bin Sa'd al Numaree
Umar bin Sa'd Salma
Umar bin Sufyan Qurshee
Umar bin Abi Salma Qurshee
Umar bin Amr Salmi
Umar bin Abdullah
Umar bin Ikrima
Umar bin Umar Laysee
Umar bin Ameer Ansari
Umar bin Auf Nakhai
Umar bin Ghazia
Umar bin La Haqq
Umar bin Malik bin Ukba
Umar bin Malik Ansari
Umar bin Mu'awiya Ghazree
Umar bin Yazeed al Khaza'ee
Umar Yamani
Asadul Ghaybah Volume 4 under the letter "Ayn" :
Anyhow, Imam Ali didn't have any single debt to Uthman but he put Imam Hasan and Imam Husain guarding his house risking his sons life while he could actually order another people, and slapped them when Uthman was killed, this is the sign of love if not the utmost respect from Imam Ali to Uthman.
True True but bakris like you dont understand why he did it he did it to show that if Osman is killed he has nothing to do with that... but still Aisha and Muawiya attacked Imam Ali (as) and accursed him for murdering Osman
As for that fadak hadith, why did you mutilate it and not serving the complete one, did you do that on purpose? No wonder though.
what purpose? have I changed something? I show you quote from hadis so what? :lol:

Merdan · August 4, 2011

^^^^

Rasul.. we went through this hadith yesterday..

"""""""reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said: Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (may peace be upon him) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over.""""""""

"""The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me."""""

so please don't say that imam ali ra said that... omer ra is trying to make a point to abbas ra that he was incorrect in saying that in the beginning.. in the end, omer ra give ali ra the appointment of the trustee of fadak to distribute the gains amongs the ummah including ahle bayt... please don't take sunni hadiths out of context.

You also said to Rocke, "True True but bakris like you dont understand why he did it he did it to show that if Osman is killed he has nothing to do with that... but still Aisha and Muawiya attacked Imam Ali and accursed him for murdering Osman."

That amazes me that you would think Imam Ali RA would do something, i.e. send off his sons, for some kind of show. The fact is Osman RA relied on Ali RA to calm down the sabaite rebels, as Osman RA always defended himself against the slanders in the mosque.

Again, Ayse RA did not attack Imam Ali RA... she went to Basra to call out those rebels who killed Osman. When Imam Ali RA got there, a resolution was all but done.

but shias fail to see that the rebels (who are the same people who turned out to be khawarij) had their own agenda and starting attacking to bring the battle into conception... these regicides never wanted Ali RA to establish himself.. that's why these people [who supposedly were on Ali's side] ending up betraying Ali RA at seffin because Ali RA was about to win... and that's why they fought him at narawan..

but it seems you are too blinded by hate to see the truth.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Merdan

Rasul · August 4, 2011

According to this, Imam Ali didn't do anything to protect Bibi Fatima a.s.but would have been able to stop Umar marrying his daughter?
no its according your ignorance...

Merdan · August 4, 2011

^^^^^^^

the narrations that Omer RA supposedly even threatened Imam Ali RA have already been proven false because of multiple liars in chain in transmission [in tabari's book]. kanz ul ummal is joke book with admitted fabricated hadiths in it by the complier.. then this story ended up in the books of the mutazalis, who btw contradict themselves a millions times over anyway... but you know the funny thing... none of your early scholars like mufid ever even commented on this event.. why was that? it wasn't until somewhere the 17 century, majlisi, where shias started propagating this fake story.

but take a look at it logically... imam ali ra gets his house burnt and fatemeh ra is injured and none of the shian ye ali and the whole bani hashem even raise a complaint? how did that happen nor anybody else... what was the reaction from the shian ye ali when ali ra was assassinated or when imam hossayn was assassinated? kind of chaotic. but yet nothing for fatemeh ra? make sense to you?

and let me ask you something.... supposedly this happened right on the day of bayah for abu bekr ra... so when did fatemeh ask for fadak? before or after this fake event? it can't be before because she was still grieving and the decision was not made then.. but if you say after, well that doesn't make any sense considering she was supposedly all but killed but yet imam ali ra allows her to go seek abu bekr ra for fadak by herself? make sense to you?

Rasul · August 4, 2011

so please don't say that imam ali ra said that... omer ra is trying to make a point to abbas ra that he was incorrect in saying that in the beginning.. in the end, omer ra give ali ra the appointment of the trustee of fadak to distribute the gains amongs the ummah including ahle bayt... please don't take sunni hadiths out of context.
lol yeah what a point by omar... you understand it on your way...
That amazes me that you would think Imam Ali RA would do something, i.e. send off his sons, for some kind of show. The fact is Osman RA relied on Ali RA to calm down the sabaite rebels, as Osman RA always defended himself against the slanders in the mosque
That is you how call it "some kind of show" not me... + Uthman was corrupted
.
Again, Ayse RA did not attack Imam Ali RA... she went to Basra to call out those rebels who killed Osman. When Imam Ali RA got there, a resolution was all but done.
Aisha had no right to go somewhere and make fitnah do you think Aisha is smarter than Imam Ali (as)? lol
but shias fail to see that the rebels (who are the same people who turned out to be khawarij) had their own agenda and starting attacking to bring the battle into conception... these regicides never wanted Ali RA to establish himself.. that's why these people [who supposedly were on Ali's side] ending up betraying Ali RA at seffin because Ali RA was about to win... and that's why they fought him at narawan.. but it seems you are too blinded by hate to see the truth.
illogical

Edited August 4, 2011 by Rasul

Rocke · August 4, 2011

1) How do you know that it was Imam Ali who named his son Umar?
2) Do you know whether His son was named in memory and love for Umar the second Caliph?
3) Hypothetically speaking, if the son was named by someone else in the family or tribe and had Imam Ali a.s objected, wouldn't the opponents of Islam have complained that the Infallible Imam of Islam took matters personally rather than being concerned with religion? (Do you remember that Imam Ali let go of his enemy who spat at Him on the battle field?)
4) Just cz a son of Imam Ali a.s is named Umar (assuming that historical report is correct), should we let go of all other reports which clearly refer to the injustice at the hands of the second caliph? Is that the kind of justice Islam preaches?

I suppose Musaylamah and Yazid didn't have the monopoly of their name too, but why none of the Aal Bait and their descendants used the name?

Got my point?

Uthman pretty much begged Imam Ali to help him at various occasions. By the way Imam Ali did not attend Uthman's funeral - sign of love.

But he attended Umars and prayed for him, another sign of love? ;)

Yeah... well, say what you want, still Imam Ali risks his beloved sons to protect Uthman while he could actually order anyone else.

We have references in both sunni and shia text in which Syeda Fatima negated that argument from Quran. Don't we muslims believe that any reported hadith/narration which clearly goes against Quran is false/inauthentic? - Food for thought.

Please do share it, We also have Shia references which mentions that Imam al-Baqir would use Abu Bakr's judgment regarding fadak if he's granted position of power and that they (the Caliphs) never harm their rights one bit, and Imam as-Sadiq said if he's granted position of power, he would taqarrub to Allah by spilling the blood of anyone who abused Abu Bakr and Umar, and that he prefer to not be given the shafa'a of his grandfather if he said anything contrary to his heart when he asked weather he was doing taqiyyah or not.

Merdan · August 4, 2011

lol yeah what a point by omar... you understand it on your way...

umm... it says it right in the hadith " I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. ".... so i don't know what your point is.

That is you how call it "some kind of show" not me... + Uthman was corrupted

nope, you're the one that implied that ali ra sent his sons against the swords so that ali ra can deflect any kind of blame for murder.. that's not how i think of Imam ali ra was that kind of person....... maybe you. .

Osman RA was not corrupted, if he was then Ali RA wouldn't defend him... the fact is they were people [some even within Osman's family] that became greedy and wanted to watch the ummah burn.

Aisha had no right to go somewhere and make fitnah do you think Aisha is smarter than Imam Ali (as)? lol

lol, you just acknowledged that Ayse RA did not even fight or intend to fight Ali RA

illogical

no it's not... you just deny the truth.... you do know the fact that they also betrayed imam hassan ra, right?

Edited August 4, 2011 by Merdan

Rasul · August 5, 2011

umm... it says it right in the hadith " I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. ".... so i don't know what your point is.
lol Exactly you don't know my point ...
nope, you're the one that implied that ali ra sent his sons against the swords so that ali ra can deflect any kind of blame for murder.. that's not how i think of Imam ali ra was that kind of person....... maybe you. .
Osman RA was not corrupted, if he was then Ali RA wouldn't defend him... the fact is they were people [some even within Osman's family] that became greedy and wanted to watch the ummah burn.
yes but this is not " some kind of show" like you said... you are making false interpretations... you are the one who says; "he sent his sons against the swords" he sent his son to calm down protesters and show that if Osman is killed he has nothing to do with that...
“A group of Uthman’s Shias (followers) accused Ali of giving orders to kill Uthman.”
Sunni references
Ras al-Hussain page 205
lol, you just acknowledged that Ayse RA did not even fight or intend to fight Ali RA
lol no it's you ignorance and misinterpretations...
Fitnah means also "persecution" "chaose" "civil war" "anarchy"
that is what Aisha did becouse she accorsed Ali (as) for Uthmans murder like Muawiya (l.a) Zubayr and Talhah (l.a)
Ali said to al-Zubair: "Are you asking me for compensation for the blood of 'Uthman, when it was you who killed him?
History of al-Tabari, English Edition, Volume 16 pages 125-126
About those who accused him of `Uthman's killing
Beware! Satan has certainly started instigating his forces and has collected his army in order that oppression may reach its extreme ends and wrong may come back to its position. By Allah they have not put a correct blame on me, nor have they done justice between me and themselves.
They are demanding of me a right which they have abandoned, and a blood that they have themselves shed. If I were a partner with them in it then they too have their share of it. But if they did it without me they alone have to face the consequences. Their biggest argument (against me) is (really) against themselves. They are suckling from a mother who is already dry, and bringing into life innovation that is already dead. How disappointing is this challenger (to battle)? Who is this challenger and for what is he being responded to? I am happy that the reasoning of Allah has been exhausted before them and He knows (all) about them.
The threat to Wage War against them
If they refuse (to obey) I will offer them the edge of the sword which is enough a curer of wrong and supporter of Right.
It is strange they send me word to proceed to them for spear-fighting and to keep ready for fighting with swords. May the mourning women mourn over them. I have ever been so that I was never frightened by fighting nor threatened by clashing. I enjoy full certainty of belief from my Allah and have no doubt in my faith”.
Nahj al-Balaghah by Imam Ali (as) Sermon 22
no it's not... you just deny the truth.... you do know the fact that they also betrayed imam hassan ra, right?
they who betrayed Imam Hassan (as) were hypocrites who were paid and bayed by Muawiyah (l.a)

Merdan · August 7, 2011

"lol Exactly you don't know my point ..."

ok, but just don't try to use that hadith in favour of your narrative.

"he sent his son to calm down protesters and show that if Osman is killed he has nothing to do with that..."

Ali RA himself was trying to settle down Medineh since the beginning of the crisis. That's proof enough. He sent his sons RA when they were trying to actually besiege him while Ali RA tried to settle them down in the forefront.

ali ra would not do things for his own benefit or perception.. he did things for the truth and Allah SWT... that's the kind of man ali ra is, if you think he's less than that, that's your own predicament.

"that is what Aisha did becouse she accorsed Ali (as) for Uthmans murder like Muawiya (l.a) Zubayr and Talhah (l.a)"

Exaggeration on your part. Ayse's RA pure intention was to seek justice and reconcile, why don't you read at tabari? there's a reason why Ayse RA went to basra and not to medineh where Ali ra was. and Ali RA was set on going to syria to subdue moawiyah, but only later decided to make peace at basra on a detour. think about it.

and again no one is denying that few people literally blamed Ali RA, even though some of Osman's inner circle also plotted against him and could have used this as a device.. [even though your fake sermon has it in there] however you're mixing things up.. but rather this was discontent because Ali RA had to delay qisas, which he cleared up by the time he got to basra, but ali's traitors ruined everything by starting the battle.

that's funny how you use (l.a.) for Talha RA considering Ali RA led his funeral prayer and asked Allah to pardon him of his sins of his friend.

"they who betrayed Imam Hassan (as) were hypocrites who were paid and bayed by Muawiyah (l.a)"

that's too bad you don't see that those people had a plan against Ali RA (and against the ummah) all along... by starting the battle of jamal and betraying ali at seffin and then fighting ali at narawan and then fighting hassan... too bad you don't see that.. too bad.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Merdan

Rasul · August 7, 2011

ok, but just don't try to use that hadith in favour of your narrative.
a use it to show the truth...
Ali RA himself was trying to settle down Medineh since the beginning of the crisis. That's proof enough. He sent his sons RA when they were trying to actually besiege him while Ali RA tried to settle them down in the forefront.ali ra would not do things for his own benefit or perception.. he did things for the truth and Allah SWT... that's the kind of man ali ra is, if you think he's less than that, that's your own predicament.
why you bakris misunderstand everything and make misinterpretations... this is not about like you said "do things for his own benefit or perception.." it was action against chose who claimed that Imam Ali (as) wanted to murder Uthman.... " he did things for the truth and Allah SWT" exactly...
Exaggeration on your part. Ayse's RA pure intention was to seek justice and reconcile, why don't you read at tabari? there's a reason why Ayse RA went to basra and not to medineh where Ali ra was. and Ali RA was set on going to syria to subdue moawiyah, but only later decided to make peace at basra on a detour. think about it.
NO NO NO exaggeration on your part...
Ibn Jarir Tabari also narrated from Ahmad – from his father – from Wahab bin Jarir bin Hazim – from Yunis bin Yazeed – from Zuhri:
I was told that when Talha and al-Zubayr heard that Ali had encamped at Dhu Qar, they left for al-Basrah and took the road to al-Munkadir. Ayesha then heard the dogs barking and asked: ‘What water is this?’. ‘Al-Hawab’ they replied. “We belong to Allah, and to him we return” she exclaimed. “I am she. I heard Messenger of God say in the presence of his wives, ‘ I wish I knew at which of you the dogs of al-Hawab will bark!’” and she wanted to turn back. Abdullah bin al-Zubayr came up to her, and it is said that he told her, “Whoever said that this was al-Hawab was lying”. And then persisted with her until she set off.
They came to al-Basrah, the governor of which was Uthman bin Hunayf, and he asked them: “What makes you angry at our companion [Ali]?” “We don’t consider him more eligible for leadership than we” they replied “after what he has done”. “The man [Ali], made me governor, so I will write to him and inform him why you have come” said Uthman, “On the condition that I lead the prayer until his reply comes”.
Sunni reference:
History of Tabari, English Edition, Volume 16 pages 68-69
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi:
When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)."
and again no one is denying that few people literally blamed Ali RA, even though some of Osman's inner circle also plotted against him and could have used this as a device.. [even though your fake sermon has it in there] however you're mixing things up.. but rather this was discontent because Ali RA had to delay qisas, which he cleared up by the time he got to basra, but ali's traitors ruined everything by starting the battle.
Aisha and her criminal friends blaimed Ali (as) and his shias for Uthmans murder when they actually murdered him Uthman
I entered Uthman's presence (During the agitation against Uthman) and talked with him for an hour. He said: "Come Ibn Abbas/Ayyash," and he took me by the hand and had me listen to what the people were saying at his door. We heard some say, "what are you waiting for," while others were saying, "wait, perhaps he will repent." While the two of
us were standing there (behind the door and listening), Talha Ibn Ubaydillah passed by and said: "Where is Ibn Udays?" He was told, "He´is over there." Ibn Udays came to (Talha) and whispered something with him, and then went back to his associates and said: "Do not let anyone go in (to the house of Uthman) to see this man or leave his house." Uthman said to me: "These are the orders of Talha." He continued, "O God! Protect me from Talha for he has provoked all these people
against me. By God, I hope nothing will come of it, and that his own blood will be shed. Talha has abused me unlawfully. I heard the Messenger of God said: 'The blood of a Muslim is lawful in three cases: apostasy, adultery, and the one who kills except in legitimate retaliation for another.' So why should I be killed?" Ibn Abbas/Ayyash continued: I wanted to leave (the house), but they blocked my path until Muhammad Ibn Abi Bakr who was passing by requested them to let me go, and they did so.
Sunni reference:
History of al-Tabari, English version, v15, pp 199-200
While Ibn Abbas was setting out for Mecca, he found Aisha in al-Sulsul(seven miles south of Medina). Aisha said: "O' Ibn Abbas, I appeal to
you by God, to abandon this man (Uthman) and sow doubt about him among the people, for you have been given a sharp tongue. (By the current
siege over Uthman) people have shown their understanding, and light is raised to guide them. I have seen Talha has taken the possession of
the keys to the public treasuries and storehouses. If he becomes Caliph (after Uthman), he will follow the path of his parental cousin Abu-Bakr." Ibn Abbas said: "O' Mother (of believers), if something happens to that man (i.e., Uthman), people would seek asylum only with our companion (namely, Ali)." Aisha replied: "Be quiet! I have no desire to defy or quarrel with you."
Sunni reference:
History of al-Tabari, English version, v15, pp 238-239
Ibn Jarir Tabari also narrated from Ahmad – from his father – from Wahab bin Jarir bin Hazim – from Yunis bin Yazeed – from Zuhri:
I was told that when Talha and al-Zubayr heard that Ali had encamped at Dhu Qar, they left for al-Basrah and took the road to al-Munkadir. Ayesha then heard the dogs barking and asked: ‘What water is this?’. ‘Al-Hawab’ they replied. “We belong to Allah, and to him we return” she exclaimed. “I am she. I heard Messenger of God say in the presence of his wives, ‘ I wish I knew at which of you the dogs of al-Hawab will bark!’” and she wanted to turn back. Abdullah bin al-Zubayr came up to her, and it is said that he told her, “Whoever said that this was al-Hawab was lying”. And then persisted with her until she set off.
They came to al-Basrah, the governor of which was Uthman bin Hunayf, and he asked them: “What makes you angry at our companion [Ali]?” “We don’t consider him more eligible for leadership than we” they replied “after what he has done”. “The man [Ali], made me governor, so I will write to him and inform him why you have come” said Uthman, “On the condition that I lead the prayer until his reply comes”.
Sunni reference:
History of Tabari, English Edition, Volume 16 pages 68-69
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Maryam Abdullah bin Ziyad Al-Aasadi:
When Talha, AzZubair and 'Aisha moved to Basra, 'Ali sent 'Ammar bin Yasir and Hasan bin 'Ali who came to us at Kufa and ascended the pulpit. Al-Hasan bin 'Ali was at the top of the pulpit and 'Ammar was below Al-Hasan. We all gathered before him. I heard 'Ammar saying, "'Aisha has moved to Al-Busra. By Allah! She is the wife of your Prophet in this world and in the Hereafter. But Allah has put you to test whether you obey Him (Allah) or her ('Aisha)."
that's funny how you use (l.a.) for Talha RA considering Ali RA led his funeral prayer and asked Allah to pardon him of his sins of his friend.
That what is funny that you bakris send (ra) after enemies of Ahl al-bayt (as)
that's too bad you don't see that those people had a plan against Ali RA (and against the ummah) all along... by starting the battle of jamal and betraying ali at seffin and then fighting ali at narawan and then fighting hassan... too bad you don't see that.. too bad
lol now you see what Aisha and her criminal friends did...

Muntaqim Force · August 9, 2011

Salaam and Ya Ali a.s Madad

All three of them were the worst humans earth has ever bear. They resemble those three pillars which we stone. They are the tool of Satan by which he is keeping his challenge of " He (Satan) said, "My Lord, since You have willed that I go astray, I will surely entice them on earth; I will send them all(Majority) astray." and Our Imam Ali a.s is what the remaining part of this verse means

Except those among Your worshipers who are devoted absolutely to You alone." He (God) said, "This is a law that is inviolable: you have no power over my servants; you only have power over the strayers who follow you." [15:39-42]

I feel sorry for sunni brothers that they cant recognize their real enemy.

May Allah guide them

JimJam · August 9, 2011

that's too bad you don't see that those people had a plan against Ali RA (and against the ummah) all along... by starting the battle of jamal and betraying ali at seffin and then fighting ali at narawan and then fighting hassan... too bad you don't see that.. too bad

By "those people", you mean the Muaviah and the Ummayads amirite? They were the ones who benefited in the end.

Merdan · August 9, 2011

"a use it to show the truth..."

just don't take it out context or use just pick and choose one line from it and make a point. look at that whole thing

"why you bakris misunderstand everything and make misinterpretations"

hey, you think that ali ra sent his sons so that people wouldn't think he killed him... this is called perception. you think ali ra sent his sons for how people precieved him. i'm not misunderstanding...

ali ra was a religious leader and most knowledgable after the prophet saw. his character was the best and most pure......you believe whatever you want about ali ra, you don't have to explain to me.

"Aisha and her criminal friends blaimed Ali"

no they didn't... talha ra and zobayr ra were the ones who convinced ali ra to take caliphate. they were worried that ali ra didn't enact qisas to early.. this was explained before... clearly

none of the hadiths say that they blamed ali ra for the actual murder......... again, they went to basra [not medineh]... “O mother, what moved you and pushed you to this country?” She answered: “O son, to reconcile between people.”Nay you shall go forward so that the Muslims shall see you and Allah then Makes peace between them.

Doesn't matter because by the time Ali RA got to basra, peace was all but done. Ayse, talha, zobayr, ra realized they erred... but it was the sabite rebels (who later became known as khawarij) who started to attack, going against ali's orders, thus causing a battle.

" He said, “What is this noise?” His army answered, “Aysha is calling and her army is calling with her against the killers of Uthman and their friends.” Ali started calling and said, “O’ Allah, curse the killers of Uthman and their friends.”)(Al-Tabari. vol.3, p.43, year,36H)"

"when they actually murdered him Uthman"

first of all, Ayse RA was already out of medineh. second of all if you actually read tabari, you would know he dismisses this as no companions of the Prophet SAW intended to murder Osman RA. you have been fed lies... and the hadith you posted from bokhari doesn't even prove anything that you're saying not even the other hadith. you're not understanding what you're copying and pasting. Talha corroborated that what Uthman had said was correct. Thereupon he left the company of the rioters, even before the siege. after talha ra heard that Osman RA was assassinated, that's why he was shocked angry and part of that is why he went to take Ali's ra hand, and then told ali to enact qisas, but came upset that ali ra had to fight the rebels and subdue them, and why he went to basra... nothing you posted proves your point.

"That what is funny that you bakris send (ra) after enemies of Ahl al-bayt (as)"

first, my mother taught me manners so i can't call you names back... next, you are incorrect in we say RA for enemies of ahle bayt.. it is a sin to hate AB and it is a sign of faith to love AB.... but you have been fed lies.. May Allah SWT guide you.

"lol now you see what Aisha and her criminal friends did..."

uhhh no, you didn't prove anything at least from what you say are sunni sources.... it was the sabite rebels who became the khawarij who killed Osman ra, who started teh battle of camel, who betrayed ali at sefin, and who fought him at narawan, and then betrayed hassan... you need to accept that.

By "those people", you mean the Muaviah and the Ummayads amirite? They were the ones who benefited in the end.

well, moaviyah didn't seem to have his intentions for the good of islam but rather his own interests unfortunately. and his absolute direct conflict with ali ra [unlike Ayse RA going to basra to call out the rebells, when Ali RA was right in to handle the situation himself.] benefited him, same when he stole caliphate from imam hassan ra... and then later.

but we must remember, that these fitnah mongeror rebels who killed osman ra had a plan all along.. they were opportunists who wanted to weaken the state... see when ali ra was about to defeat moawiyah, these rebels [who ended up being known as khawarij] turned on ali ra... because they never wanted ali ra to establish his caliphate over the state.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Merdan

JimJam · August 9, 2011

but we must remember, that these fitnah mongeror rebels who killed osman ra had a plan all along.. they were opportunists who wanted to weaken the state... see when ali ra was about to defeat moawiyah, these rebels [who ended up being known as khawarij] turned on ali ra... because they never wanted ali ra to establish his caliphate over the state.

Why? What benefit did they get? From what we can see in history, the Kharjiites have been a marginal and (though a very violent group) that have just cause chaos and then be beaten down.

From what I've read it seems to me that the public that lynched Usman did end up asking for arbitration when Muaviah raised the Quran on spears, they were a undisciplined bunch, later when they after insisting on handling the arbitration bungled it up (or got bribed by amr ibn al aas) and allowed the verdict to go in favor of Muaviah and then in a bid to cover up their embarrassment blamed Ali (as) for allowing the arbitration (even though he was very resistant to the idea of arbitration, it was only to prevent a full blown mutiny that he agreed).

The Kharjiites seem too good to be true from the point of view of the Ummayads, they not only made the war swing in favor of Muaviah, and they got their greatest enemy Ali (as) killed and they caused chaos enough to weaken the Muslim state under Hasan (as). I think many of these Kharjiites were on the Ummayad payroll since the Ummayads were the ultimate beneficiary of their actions.

well, moaviyah didn't seem to have his intentions for the good of islam but rather his own interests unfortunately. and his absolute direct conflict with ali ra [unlike Ayse RA going to basra to call out the rebells, when Ali RA was right in to handle the situation himself.] benefited him, same when he stole caliphate from imam hassan ra... and then later.

At least you know Muaviah was a criminal and a usurper

Edited August 9, 2011 by JimJam

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