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In the Name of God بسم الله

Disturbing Khomeini Quote

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(salam)

"A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."

Khomeini, "Tahrirolvasyleh" fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

People say this is a direct translation from one of Khomeini's books. As a person who grew up idolizing Khomeini, I really hope this isn't true.

Can anyone explain this to me?

This is the link to it in persian: http://ensaf.persiangig.com/tahrir/1.htm

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this book has only 2 volumes :lol:

Can you speak farci? Because to my knowledge, this is a real quote from sayed Khomeini, just because the ref is a bit off doesn't mean we should dismiss it.

@op, this has been discussed before, but for some reason the thread is quickly closed, unless that was only the one i saw and other threads have gotten to the bottom of this.

As I understood it, he was saying that this is permissable (not meaning we should go out and do it)

this line at the end "It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven." could just be referring to a father marrying his daughter off when menstruation starts, rather than referring to marrying your infant daughter to someone for him to take non-intercourse related sexual pleasure from her.

(pleae note i do not in any way condone this type of behaviour)

Edited by ShahHussain
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As I understood it, he was saying that this is permissable (not meaning we should go out and do it)

The fact that he is saying it's permissible is what's bothering me.

I really hope this isn't an authentic quote. If anyone speak Farsi here, it would be great if you could verify the accuracy of the translation.

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I have seen this quote before.

This is the first time I have seen a source cited.

When I get the chance, I will check the link you have provided to see if the translation is accurate. But this looks like a blog website, so maybe it would be best if I check the version of his resalah that's posted on aviny.com.

Edit -- OK the translation is absolutely wrong. Here is the ruling:

مساله 25 - براى مرد جائز است نظر كردن به دختر بچه ايكه بحد بلوغ نرسيده در صورتيكه نظر كردن بمنظور لذت بردن و شهوت نباشد و باعث ريبه نگردد، بله نزديكتر به احتياط و بهتر آنستكه تنها به مواضعى از بدن او نظر كند كه عادت بر پوشاندن آن با لباسهاى متعارف جارى نشده نظير صورت و كف دو دست و موى سر و ساعد و قدمها نه مثل رآنهاو سرين و پشت و سينه و پستان ، و در همان مواضع هم كه پوشانيدن متعارف نيست سزاوار آنست كه احتياط ترك نشود و احتياط آنست كه او را اگر به سن شش سال رسيده نبوسد و بر دامن خود ننشاند.

And there is a ruling immediately after that, which even further shows the impure intentions of those who translated this ruling and try to use it to discredit Imam Khomeini:

مساله 26 - براى زن جائز است به پسر بچه مميز نظر بيندازد مادامى كه پسر بچه بحد بلوغ نرسيده باشد، و بنابر اقوى بر زن واجب نيست خود را از چنين كودكى بپوشاند مگر آنكه بحدى رسيده باشد كه نظر انداختن او و نظر كردن زن به او منشا فوران و تحريك شهوت باشد، كه در اين صورت بنابر اقوى واجب است بپوشاند، و اما در صورتيكه فعلا تحريك نمى كند لكن ريبه در كار هست يعنى بيم آن هست كه بعدها كودك را بدنبال او بكشاند بنابر احتياط واجب است .

Inshallah I will translate these both later. For now I will just make the quick note:

- If the above source is accurate, Imam Khomeini says its permissible for a man to marry a girl who is not baligh.

- He doesn't say any of that other stuff about penetration or about having sex with the child or about the reward of giving your child in marriage or any of that.

- It's also permissible for women to marry a boy who is not baligh (which, in any case, eliminates the always present and always annoying "lack of women's rights in Iran/Islam" part of the grand anti-Imam Khomeini narrative).

We must all remember that this is part of an orchestrated plan to incite doubt. Right now, the brother who posted this topic is in doubt. Why? Because of a fabrication. It's so easy to create doubt, because all it takes is a lie or an empty slogan or an insult.

Aviny.com's Imam Khomeini resalah isn't working, but here is the link to the part under discussion: http://www.aviny.com/Index2.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/Ahkam/ResalehImam/resale19.aspx

I checked the one they have on the leader's website: http://www.leader.ir/tree/index.php?catid=2

I couldn't see this ruling on the leader's link. So I am not even sure if it is legit. But to the best of my knowledge (someone can correct me if I am wrong), other scholars have permitted this (marriage to a child) as well. But that quote is pure rubbish in any case.

Edited by baradar_jackson
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I have seen this quote before.

This is the first time I have seen a source cited.

When I get the chance, I will check the link you have provided to see if the translation is accurate. But this looks like a blog website, so maybe it would be best if I check the version of his resalah that's posted on aviny.com.

Edit -- OK the translation is absolutely wrong. Here is the ruling:

مساله 25 - براى مرد جائز است نظر كردن به دختر بچه ايكه بحد بلوغ نرسيده در صورتيكه نظر كردن بمنظور لذت بردن و شهوت نباشد و باعث ريبه نگردد، بله نزديكتر به احتياط و بهتر آنستكه تنها به مواضعى از بدن او نظر كند كه عادت بر پوشاندن آن با لباسهاى متعارف جارى نشده نظير صورت و كف دو دست و موى سر و ساعد و قدمها نه مثل رآنهاو سرين و پشت و سينه و پستان ، و در همان مواضع هم كه پوشانيدن متعارف نيست سزاوار آنست كه احتياط ترك نشود و احتياط آنست كه او را اگر به سن شش سال رسيده نبوسد و بر دامن خود ننشاند.

And there is a ruling immediately after that, which even further shows the impure intentions of those who translated this ruling and try to use it to discredit Imam Khomeini:

مساله 26 - براى زن جائز است به پسر بچه مميز نظر بيندازد مادامى كه پسر بچه بحد بلوغ نرسيده باشد، و بنابر اقوى بر زن واجب نيست خود را از چنين كودكى بپوشاند مگر آنكه بحدى رسيده باشد كه نظر انداختن او و نظر كردن زن به او منشا فوران و تحريك شهوت باشد، كه در اين صورت بنابر اقوى واجب است بپوشاند، و اما در صورتيكه فعلا تحريك نمى كند لكن ريبه در كار هست يعنى بيم آن هست كه بعدها كودك را بدنبال او بكشاند بنابر احتياط واجب است .

You quoted the wrong ones. It's issue #12 on that page (here's the Arabic: http://al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-fqh/tahrir-2/tahrir25.htm#a5)

مساله 12 - كسيكه زوجه اى كمتر از نه سال دارد وطى او براى وى جايز نيست چه اينكه زوجه دائمى باشد، و چه منقطع ، و اما ساير كام گيريها از قبيل لمس بشهوت و آغوش گرفتن و تفخيذ اشكال ندارد هر چند شيرخواره باشد، و اگر قبل از نه سال او را وطى كند اگر افضاء نكرده باشد بغير از گناه چيزى بر او نيست ، و اگر كرده باشد يعنى مجراى بول و مجراى حيض او را يكى كرده باشد و يا مجراى حيض و غائط او را يكى كرده باشد تا ابد وطى او بر وى حرام مى شود، لكن در صورت دوم حكم بنابر احتياط است و در هر حال بنا بر اقوى بخاطر افضاء از همسرى او بيرون نمى شود در نتيجه همه احكام زوجيت بر او مترتب مى شود يعنى او از شوهرش و شوهرش از او ارث مى برد، و نمى تواند پنجمين زن دائم بگيرد و ازدواجش با خواهر آن زن بر او حرام است و همچنين ساير احكام ، و بر او واجب است مادامى كه آن زنده است مخارجش را بپردازد. هر چند طلاقش داده باشد، بلكه هر چند كه آن زن بعد از طلاق شوهرى ديگرى انتخاب كرده باشد كه بنابر احتياط بايد افضا كننده نفقه او را بدهد، بلكه اين حكم خالى از قوت نيست ، و نيز بر او واجب است ديه افضا را كه ديه قتل است بآن زن بپردازد اگر آن زن آزاد است نصف ديه مرد را با مهريه ايكه معين شده و بخاطر عقد دخول بگردنش آمده به او بدهد، و اگر بعد از تمام شدن نه سال با او جماع كند و او را افضاء نمايد حرام ابدى نمى شود و ديه بگردنش نمى آيد، لكن نزديكتر به احتياط آن است كه مادامى كه آن زن زنده است نفقه اش را بدهد هر چند كه بنا بر اقوى واجب نيست .

To the OP, the translation you have is quite off, but I'll let baradar translate the above if he wishes.

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You quoted the wrong ones. It's issue #12 on that page (here's the Arabic: http://al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-fqh/tahrir-2/tahrir25.htm#a5)

مساله 12 - كسيكه زوجه اى كمتر از نه سال دارد وطى او براى وى جايز نيست چه اينكه زوجه دائمى باشد، و چه منقطع ، و اما ساير كام گيريها از قبيل لمس بشهوت و آغوش گرفتن و تفخيذ اشكال ندارد هر چند شيرخواره باشد، و اگر قبل از نه سال او را وطى كند اگر افضاء نكرده باشد بغير از گناه چيزى بر او نيست ، و اگر كرده باشد يعنى مجراى بول و مجراى حيض او را يكى كرده باشد و يا مجراى حيض و غائط او را يكى كرده باشد تا ابد وطى او بر وى حرام مى شود، لكن در صورت دوم حكم بنابر احتياط است و در هر حال بنا بر اقوى بخاطر افضاء از همسرى او بيرون نمى شود در نتيجه همه احكام زوجيت بر او مترتب مى شود يعنى او از شوهرش و شوهرش از او ارث مى برد، و نمى تواند پنجمين زن دائم بگيرد و ازدواجش با خواهر آن زن بر او حرام است و همچنين ساير احكام ، و بر او واجب است مادامى كه آن زنده است مخارجش را بپردازد. هر چند طلاقش داده باشد، بلكه هر چند كه آن زن بعد از طلاق شوهرى ديگرى انتخاب كرده باشد كه بنابر احتياط بايد افضا كننده نفقه او را بدهد، بلكه اين حكم خالى از قوت نيست ، و نيز بر او واجب است ديه افضا را كه ديه قتل است بآن زن بپردازد اگر آن زن آزاد است نصف ديه مرد را با مهريه ايكه معين شده و بخاطر عقد دخول بگردنش آمده به او بدهد، و اگر بعد از تمام شدن نه سال با او جماع كند و او را افضاء نمايد حرام ابدى نمى شود و ديه بگردنش نمى آيد، لكن نزديكتر به احتياط آن است كه مادامى كه آن زن زنده است نفقه اش را بدهد هر چند كه بنا بر اقوى واجب نيست .

To the OP, the translation you have is quite off, but I'll let baradar translate the above if he wishes.

Oops, my bad.

I just used the "find" function, and searched the word "kid" and from skimming through the results, that thing I posted was the closest one to the ruling posted in the original post so I figured it was that.

OK I will translate this above one inshallah.

Edited by baradar_jackson
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(salam)

(bismillah)

I have a personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah, and this fatwa is found in second volume.

(Taken from my personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah (Damascus: Sufaarah al-Majhooriyyah 1418 A.H.), vol. 2, pg. 221 - 222)

Click here for the Picture (file too big to upload) --> http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/4414/khomeinitahreervol2pg22.jpg

مسألة 12 : لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ، و أما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة ، و لو وطأها قبل التسع و لم يفضها لم يترتب عليه شى‏ء غير الاثم على الاقوى ، و إن أفضاها بأن جعل مسلكى البول و الحيض واحدا أو مسلكى الحيض و الغائط واحدا حرم عليه وطؤها أبدا لكن على الاحوط فى الصورة الثانية ، و على أي حال لم تخرج عن زوجيته على الاقوى ، فيجري عليها أحكامها من التوارث و حرمة الخامسة و حرمة أختها معها و غيرها ، و يجب عليه نفقتها مادامت حية و إن طلقها بل و إن تزوجت بعد الطلاق على الاحوط ، بل لا يخلو من قوة ، و يجب عليه دية الافضاء ، و هى دية النفس ، فإذا كانت حرة فلها نصف دية الرجل مضافا إلى المهر الذي استحقته بالعقد و الدخول ، و لو دخل بزوجته بعد إكمال التسع فأفضاها لم تحرم عليه و لم تثبت الدية ، و لكن الاحوط الانفاق عليها مادامت حية و إن كان الاقوى عدم الوجوب .

Ruling #12: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. And As for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, embracing, and thighing, there is no problem in it even with a suckling infant. If he does have sexual intercourse before nine years of age and does not penetrate, there is no penalty, but he has committed a sin. If he does penetrate causing the vagina and urethra openings to be one, she will become forever haram for him, but this is as a precaution. And it is more probable that her status as his wife is not removed. And the rulings of inheritance, and the prohibition of a fifth wife or marriage to her sister applies. And it is waajib upon him for her maintenance as long as she is alive, even if he divorces her and even if she marries after divorcing her as a precautionary measure. And it is waajib upon him for blood money for the penetration and the amount is equivalent to that of an individual. If she is a free-woman, the amount is half that of a man, plus the dowry that she became entitled to through the `aqd and penetration. If he penetrates his wife after the age of nine, she does not become haram to him and there is no evidence that blood money is liable, but as a precautionary measure, he should maintain her as long as she is alive, although it is more probable that this is not obligatory."

  • Source:
  • al-Khomeini, taHreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 241, Kitaab al-Nikaah, Ruling # 12

It isn't only al-Khomeini who has done this fatwa, al-Sistani has also said this fatwa almost verbatim (a few minor changed) in his Minhaaj al-SaaliHeen.

مسألة 8: لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين

، دواماً كان النكاح أو منقطعاً، و أما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و التقبيل و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها، و لو وطئها قبل إكمال التسع و لم يفضها لم يترتب عليه شي‏ء غير الإثم على‏ الأقوى‏، و الإفضاء هو التمزق الموجب لاتحاد مسلكي البول و الحيض أو مسلكي الحيض و الغائط أو اتحاد الجميع و لو أفضاها لم تخرج عن زوجيته، فتجري عليها أحكامها من التوارث و حرمة الخامسة و حرمة أختها معها و غيرها، و لكن قيل: يحرم عليه وطؤها ابداً. إلّا أن الأقوى‏ خلافه، و لا سيما إذا اندمل الجرح بعلاج أو بغيره نعم تجب عليه دية الإفضاء، و هي دية النفس ان طلقها، بل و إن لم يطلقها على‏ المشهور، و لا يخلو عن وجه، و تجب عليه نفقتها ما دامت مفضاة و إن نشزت أو طلقها، بل و إن تزوجت بعد الطلاق على‏ الأحوط.

و لو دخل بزوجته بعد إكمال التسع فأفضاها لم تحرم عليه و لم تثبت الدية، و لكن الأحوط وجوب الإنفاق عليها كما لو كان الإفضاء قبل إكمال التسع، و لو افضى‏ غير الزوجة بزناء أو غيره تثبت الدية، و لكن لا إشكال في عدم ثبوت الحرمة الأبدية و عدم وجوب الإنفاق عليها.

(Red Translation) Ruling #18: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. As for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, kissing, embracing, and thighing, there is no problem in it...

  • Source:
  • al-Sistani, Minhaaj al-SaaliHeen, vol. 3, pg. 10

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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(salam)

(bismillah)

I have a personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah, and this fatwa is found in second volume.

(Taken from my personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah (Damascus: Sufaarah al-Majhooriyyah 1418 A.H.), vol. 2, pg. 221 - 222)

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ãÓÃáÉ 12 : áÇ íÌæÒ æØÁ ÇáÒæÌÉ ÞÈá ÅßãÇá ÊÓÚ Óäíä ¡ ÏæÇãÇ ßÇä ÇáäßÇÍ Ãæ ãäÞØÚÇ ¡ æ ÃãÇ ÓÇÆÑ ÇáÇÓÊãÊÇÚÇÊ ßÇááãÓ ÈÔåæÉ æ ÇáÖã æ ÇáÊÝÎíÐ ÝáÇ ÈÃÓ ÈåÇ ÍÊì Ýì ÇáÑÖíÚÉ ¡ æ áæ æØÃåÇ ÞÈá ÇáÊÓÚ æ áã íÝÖåÇ áã íÊÑÊÈ Úáíå ÔìþÁ ÛíÑ ÇáÇËã Úáì ÇáÇÞæì ¡ æ Åä ÃÝÖÇåÇ ÈÃä ÌÚá ãÓáßì ÇáÈæá æ ÇáÍíÖ æÇÍÏÇ Ãæ ãÓáßì ÇáÍíÖ æ ÇáÛÇÆØ æÇÍÏÇ ÍÑã Úáíå æØÄåÇ ÃÈÏÇ áßä Úáì ÇáÇÍæØ Ýì ÇáÕæÑÉ ÇáËÇäíÉ ¡ æ Úáì Ãí ÍÇá áã ÊÎÑÌ Úä ÒæÌíÊå Úáì ÇáÇÞæì ¡ ÝíÌÑí ÚáíåÇ ÃÍßÇãåÇ ãä ÇáÊæÇÑË æ ÍÑãÉ ÇáÎÇãÓÉ æ ÍÑãÉ ÃÎÊåÇ ãÚåÇ æ ÛíÑåÇ ¡ æ íÌÈ Úáíå äÝÞÊåÇ ãÇÏÇãÊ ÍíÉ æ Åä ØáÞåÇ Èá æ Åä ÊÒæÌÊ ÈÚÏ ÇáØáÇÞ Úáì ÇáÇÍæØ ¡ Èá áÇ íÎáæ ãä ÞæÉ ¡ æ íÌÈ Úáíå ÏíÉ ÇáÇÝÖÇÁ ¡ æ åì ÏíÉ ÇáäÝÓ ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ßÇäÊ ÍÑÉ ÝáåÇ äÕÝ ÏíÉ ÇáÑÌá ãÖÇÝÇ Åáì ÇáãåÑ ÇáÐí ÇÓÊÍÞÊå ÈÇáÚÞÏ æ ÇáÏÎæá ¡ æ áæ ÏÎá ÈÒæÌÊå ÈÚÏ ÅßãÇá ÇáÊÓÚ ÝÃÝÖÇåÇ áã ÊÍÑã Úáíå æ áã ÊËÈÊ ÇáÏíÉ ¡ æ áßä ÇáÇÍæØ ÇáÇäÝÇÞ ÚáíåÇ ãÇÏÇãÊ ÍíÉ æ Åä ßÇä ÇáÇÞæì ÚÏã ÇáæÌæÈ .

Ruling #12: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. And As for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, embracing, and thighing, there is no problem in it even with a suckling infant. If he does have sexual intercourse before nine years of age and does not penetrate, there is no penalty, but he has committed a sin. If he does penetrate causing the vagina and urethra openings to be one, she will become forever haram for him, but this is as a precaution. And it is more probable that her status as his wife is not removed. And the rulings of inheritance, and the prohibition of a fifth wife or marriage to her sister applies. And it is waajib upon him for her maintenance as long as she is alive, even if he divorces her and even if she marries after divorcing her as a precautionary measure. And it is waajib upon him for blood money for the penetration and the amount is equivalent to that of an individual. If she is a free-woman, the amount is half that of a man, plus the dowry that she became entitled to through the `aqd and penetration. If he penetrates his wife after the age of nine, she does not become haram to him and there is no evidence that blood money is liable, but as a precautionary measure, he should maintain her as long as she is alive, although it is more probable that this is not obligatory."

  • Source:
  • al-Khomeini, taHreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 241, Kitaab al-Nikaah, Ruling # 12

It isn't only al-Khomeini who has done this fatwa, al-Sistani has also said this fatwa almost verbatim (a few minor changed) in his Minhaaj al-SaaliHeen.

ãÓÃáÉ 8: áÇ íÌæÒ æØÁ ÇáÒæÌÉ ÞÈá ÅßãÇá ÊÓÚ Óäíä

¡ ÏæÇãÇð ßÇä ÇáäßÇÍ Ãæ ãäÞØÚÇð¡ æ ÃãÇ ÓÇÆÑ ÇáÇÓÊãÊÇÚÇÊ ßÇááãÓ ÈÔåæÉ æ ÇáÊÞÈíá æ ÇáÖã æ ÇáÊÝÎíÐ ÝáÇ ÈÃÓ ÈåÇ¡ æ áæ æØÆåÇ ÞÈá ÅßãÇá ÇáÊÓÚ æ áã íÝÖåÇ áã íÊÑÊÈ Úáíå ÔíþÁ ÛíÑ ÇáÅËã Úáìþ ÇáÃÞæìþ¡ æ ÇáÅÝÖÇÁ åæ ÇáÊãÒÞ ÇáãæÌÈ áÇÊÍÇÏ ãÓáßí ÇáÈæá æ ÇáÍíÖ Ãæ ãÓáßí ÇáÍíÖ æ ÇáÛÇÆØ Ãæ ÇÊÍÇÏ ÇáÌãíÚ æ áæ ÃÝÖÇåÇ áã ÊÎÑÌ Úä ÒæÌíÊå¡ ÝÊÌÑí ÚáíåÇ ÃÍßÇãåÇ ãä ÇáÊæÇÑË æ ÍÑãÉ ÇáÎÇãÓÉ æ ÍÑãÉ ÃÎÊåÇ ãÚåÇ æ ÛíÑåÇ¡ æ áßä Þíá: íÍÑã Úáíå æØÄåÇ ÇÈÏÇð. ÅáøÇ Ãä ÇáÃÞæìþ ÎáÇÝå¡ æ áÇ ÓíãÇ ÅÐÇ ÇäÏãá ÇáÌÑÍ ÈÚáÇÌ Ãæ ÈÛíÑå äÚã ÊÌÈ Úáíå ÏíÉ ÇáÅÝÖÇÁ¡ æ åí ÏíÉ ÇáäÝÓ Çä ØáÞåÇ¡ Èá æ Åä áã íØáÞåÇ Úáìþ ÇáãÔåæÑ¡ æ áÇ íÎáæ Úä æÌå¡ æ ÊÌÈ Úáíå äÝÞÊåÇ ãÇ ÏÇãÊ ãÝÖÇÉ æ Åä äÔÒÊ Ãæ ØáÞåÇ¡ Èá æ Åä ÊÒæÌÊ ÈÚÏ ÇáØáÇÞ Úáìþ ÇáÃÍæØ.

æ áæ ÏÎá ÈÒæÌÊå ÈÚÏ ÅßãÇá ÇáÊÓÚ ÝÃÝÖÇåÇ áã ÊÍÑã Úáíå æ áã ÊËÈÊ ÇáÏíÉ¡ æ áßä ÇáÃÍæØ æÌæÈ ÇáÅäÝÇÞ ÚáíåÇ ßãÇ áæ ßÇä ÇáÅÝÖÇÁ ÞÈá ÅßãÇá ÇáÊÓÚ¡ æ áæ ÇÝÖìþ ÛíÑ ÇáÒæÌÉ ÈÒäÇÁ Ãæ ÛíÑå ÊËÈÊ ÇáÏíÉ¡ æ áßä áÇ ÅÔßÇá Ýí ÚÏã ËÈæÊ ÇáÍÑãÉ ÇáÃÈÏíÉ æ ÚÏã æÌæÈ ÇáÅäÝÇÞ ÚáíåÇ.

(Red Translation) Ruling #18: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. As for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, kissing, embracing, and thighing, there is no problem in it...

  • Source:
  • al-Sistani, Minhaaj al-SaaliHeen, vol. 3, pg. 10

These aren't the ONLY two scholars who have made this fatwa, I have only quoted these two since they are the most well known today.

(salam)

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sallamun alaykum

bro its as your imagining for us this is disgusting (if it is true). abu yaqeen has written a reply regarding this question:

Are we allowed to Marry Babies?

Salaamou Alaykom my dear brother Abu Yaqeen,

Inshallah all is well with you and your family...

I have a very controversial question that comes up in discussions amongst my friends.

It is about the ruling that some of our marja3 that they allow the husbands to release

their sexual desires (not intercourse/penetration but other things) on their wives even

if they are babies or child....

I keep trying to explain to them that the Marja3 do not come up with a ruling out of

their back pocket, and they have not found proof against this so they did not make it

haraam (except a few, I remember Ayatollah Fadhel Lankarani (ra) did not allow this)

and I tried to explain to them the basic science of how a Marja3 comes to a conclusion

on their rulings.

Do you know how to explain this? Any proof?

WaSalaam and Fee Amanillah,

-Bro ********

110

Alaikum Al Salam brother,

Do you know how to explain this? Any proof?

I believe the best way to digest this issue is to understand the rules of this type of

marriage with its limitations. Basically, our Authentic Hadiths say the following (I will only

use authentic Hadiths):

It is not recommended to get married in a very young age, because they won't get

along:

: ÇáßÇÝí - ÇáÔíÎ Çáßáíäí - Ì 5 - Õ 398 '

( ÈÇÈ ) * ( Çä ÇáÕÛÇÑ ÅÐÇ ÒæÌæÇ áã íÃÊáÝæÇ ) *

1 - ãÍãÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá ¡ Úä ÇáÝÖá Èä ÔÇÐÇä ¡ æÚáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ÌãíÚÇ ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÇáÍßã ¡ Úä ÃÈí

ÚÈÏ Çááå - Ãæ ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) - ÞÇá : Þíá áå : ÅäÇ äÒæÌ ÕÈíÇääÇ æåã ÕÛÇÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ÝÞÇá : ÅÐÇ ÒæÌæÇ æåã ÕÛÇÑ áã

íßÇÏæÇ íÊÃáÝæÇ .

Even though this is not recommended a father is allowed to let his daughter get

married even if she was 3 years old:

382 - : ÐíÈ ÇáÃÍßÇã - ÇáÔíÎ ÇáØæÓí - Ì 7 - Õ 381 '

18 - Úäå Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí Èä íÞØíä Úä ÃÎíå ÇáÍÓíä Úä Úáí Èä íÞØíä ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÇáÍÓä Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÃÊÒæÌ ( 1524 )

ÇáÌÇÑíÉ æåí ÈäÊ ËáÇË Óäíä ¿ Ãæ íÒæÌ ÇáÛáÇã æåæ ÇÈä ËáÇË Óäíä ¿ æãÇ ÃÏäì ÍÏ Ðáß ÇáÐí íÒæÌÇä Ýíå ¿ ÝÅÐÇ ÈáÛÊ ÇáÌÇÑíÉ Ýáã

( ÊÑÖ ÝãÇ ÍÇáåÇ ¿ ÞÇá : áÇ ÈÃÓ ÈÐáß ÅÐÇ ÑÖí ÃÈæåÇ Ãæ æáíåÇ . (ÇáÇÓÊÈÕÇÑ Ì 3 Õ 236

However, it is forbidden for the husband to have a full sexual relationship with his

wife in any circumstance if she was less than 9 years old (note that it will also be forbidden

for the husband to have any sort of sexual relationship with the wife in any age if this will

hurt her body or emotions):

399 - : ÇáßÇÝí - ÇáÔíÎ Çáßáíäí - Ì 5 - Õ 398 '

( ÈÇÈ ) * ( ÇáÍÏ ÇáÐí íÏÎá ÈÇáãÑÃÉ Ýíå ) *

2 - Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ æãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ÌãíÚÇ ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ÍãÇÏ ¡ Úä ÇáÍáÈí Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå

( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : ÞÇá : ÅÐÇ ÊÒæÌ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÌÇÑíÉ æåí ÕÛíÑÉ ÝáÇ íÏÎá ÈåÇ ÍÊì íÃÊí áåÇ ÊÓÚ Óäíä .

111

If the son or daughter got married in a very young age, then he or she would have

the choice to leave this marriage when he or she reaches the age of 9 for daughters and 15

for sons:

279 - : æÓÇÆá ÇáÔíÚÉ (Âá ÇáÈíÊ) - ÇáÍÑ ÇáÚÇãáí - Ì 20 - Õ 278 '

9 - æÚäå Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä ãÍÈæÈ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÃíæÈ ÇáÎÒÇÒ ¡ Úä ÈÑíÏ (Ýí äÓÎÉ : íÒíÏ ( åÇãÔ ÇáãÎØæØ ) æßÐáß ÇáÊåÐíÈíä) ( 25626 )

ÇáßäÇÓí ÞÇá : ÞáÊ áÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) : ãÊì íÌæÒ ááÃÈ Ãä íÒæÌ ÇÈäÊå æáÇ íÓÊÃãÑåÇ ¿ ÞÇá : ÅÐÇ ÌÇÒÊ ÊÓÚ Óäíä ÝÇä

ÒæÌåÇ ÞÈá ÈáæÛ ÇáÊÓÚ Óäíä ßÇä ÇáÎíÇÑ áåÇ ÅÐÇ ÈáÛÊ ÊÓÚ Óäíä ÞáÊ : ÝÅä ÒæÌåÇ ÃÈæåÇ æáã ÊÈáÛ ÊÓÚ Óäíä ÝÈáÛåÇ Ðáß ÝÓßÊÊ

æáã ÊÃÈ Ðáß ÃíÌæÒ ÚáíåÇ ¿ ÞÇá : áíÓ íÌæÒ ÚáíåÇ ÑÖì Ýí äÝÓåÇ æáÇ íÌæÒ áåÇ ÊÃÈ æáÇ ÓÎØ Ýí äÝÓåÇ ÍÊì ÊÓÊßãá ÊÓÚ Óäíä ¡

æÅÐÇ ÈáÛÊ ÊÓÚ Óäíä ÌÇÒ áåÇ ÇáÞæá Ýí äÝÓåÇ ÈÇáÑÖÇ æÇáÊÃÈí æÌÇÒ ÚáíåÇ ÈÚÏ Ðáß æÅä áã Êßä ÃÏÑßÊ ãÏÑß ÇáäÓÇÁ ¡ ÞáÊ :

ÃÝÊÞÇã ÚáíåÇ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÊÄÎÐ Ç æåí Ýí Êáß ÇáÍÇá æÅäãÇ áåÇ ÊÓÚ Óäíä æáã ÊÏÑß ãÏÑß ÇáäÓÇÁ Ýí ÇáÍíÖ ¿ ÞÇá : äÚã ÅÐÇ ÏÎáÊ Úáì

ÒæÌåÇ æáåÇ ÊÓÚ Óäíä ÐåÈ ÚäåÇ ÇáíÊã æÏÝÚ ÅáíåÇ ãÇáåÇ ¡ æÃÞíãÊ ÇáÍÏæÏ ÇáÊÇãÉ ÚáíåÇ æáåÇ ¡ ÞáÊ : ÝÇáÛáÇã íÌÑí Ýí Ðáß ãÌÑí

ÇáÌÇÑíÉ ¿ ÝÞÇá : íÇ ÃÈÇ ÎÇáÏ Åä ÇáÛáÇã ÅÐÇ ÒæÌå ÃÈæå æáã íÏÑß ßÇä ÈÇáÎíÇÑ ÅÐÇ ÃÏÑß æÈáÛ ÎãÓ ÚÔÑÉ ÓäÉ Ãæ íÔÚÑ Ýí æÌåå Ãæ

íäÈÊ Ýí ÚÇäÊå ÞÈá Ðáß ÞáÊ : ÝÇä ÃÏÎáÊ Úáíå ÇãÑÃÊå ÞÈá Ãä íÏÑß ÝãßË ãÚåÇ ãÇ ÔÇÁ Çááå Ëã ÃÏÑß ÈÚÏ ÝßÑåÇ æÊÃÈÇåÇ ¡ ÞÇá : ÅÐÇ

ßÇä ÃÈæå ÇáÐí ÒæÌå æÏÎá Ç æáÐ ãäåÇ æÃÞÇã ãÚåÇ ÓäÉ ÝáÇ ÎíÇÑ áå ÅÐÇ ÃÏÑß ¡ æáÇ íäÈÛí áå Ãä íÑÏ Úáì ÃÈíå ãÇ ÕäÚ ¡ æáÇ íÍá áå Ðáß

¡ ÞáÊ : ÝÇä ÒæÌå ÃÈæå æÏÎá Ç æåæ ÛíÑ ãÏÑß ÃÊÞÇã Úáíå ÇáÍÏæÏ æåæ Ýí Êáß ÇáÍÇá ¿ ÞÇá : ÃãÇ ÇáÍÏæÏ ÇáßÇãáÉ ÇáÊí íÄÎÐ Ç ÇáÑÌá

ÝáÇ ¡ æáßä íÌáÏ Ýí ÇáÍÏæÏ ßáåÇ Úáì ÞÏÑ ãÈáÛ ÓäÉ íÄÎÐ ÈÐáß ãÇ Èíäå æÈíä ÎãÓ ÚÔÑÉ ÓäÉ ¡ æáÇ ÊÈØá ÍÏæÏ Çááå Ýí ÎáÞå ¡ æáÇ

ÊÈØá ÍÞæÞ ÇáãÓáãíä ÝíãÇ Èíäåã ¡ ÞáÊ áå : ÌÚáÊ ÝÏÇß ÝÅä ØáÞåÇ Ýí Êáß ÇáÍÇá æáã íßä ÞÏ ÃÏÑß ÃíÌæÒ ØáÇÞå ¿ ÝÞÇá : Åä ßÇä ÞÏ

ãÓåÇ Ýí ÇáÝÑÌ ÝÅä ØáÇÞåÇ ÌÇÆÒ ÚáíåÇ æÚáíå æÅä áã íãÓåÇ Ýí ÇáÝÑÌ æáã íáÐ ãäåÇ æáã ÊáÐ ãäå ¡ ÝÅÇ ÊÚÒá Úäå æÊÕíÑ Åáì ÃåáåÇ ÝáÇ íÑÇåÇ

æáÇ ÊÞÑÈå ÍÊì íÏÑß ÝíÓÃá æíÞÇá áå : Çäß ßäÊ ÞÏ ØáÞÊ ÇãÑÃÊß ÝáÇäÉ ÝÅä åæ ÃÞÑ ÈÐáß æÃÌÇÒ ÇáØáÇÞ ßÇäÊ ÊØáíÞÉ ÈÇÆäÉ ¡ æßÇä

ÎÇØÈÇ ãä ÇáÎØÇÈ .

There is an important limitation to this right for the fathers, which is that such

marriage must be for the benefit of the child, and if not then such marriage is not Islamic:

: ÇáßÇÝí - ÇáÔíÎ Çáßáíäí - Ì 5 - Õ 394 !,

5 - ÍãíÏ Èä ÒíÇÏ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÓãÇÚÉ ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ÓãÇÚÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈÇä ¡ Úä ÝÖá Èä ÚÈÏ Çáãáß Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå

ÇáÓáÇã ) ÞÇá : áÇ ÊÓÊÃãÑ ÇáÌÇÑíÉ ÇáÊí Èíä ÃÈæíåÇ ÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏ ÃÈæåÇ Ãä íÒæÌåÇ åæ ÃäÙÑ áåÇ æÃãÇ ÇáËíÈ ÝÅÇ ÊÓÊÃÐä æÅä ßÇäÊ Èíä ÃÈæíåÇ

ÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏÇ Ãä íÒæÌÇåÇ .

Sayed al Sistani recognize this limitation in his Fatwas:

8

JEKLMN OMPLQE RE JOSTU VWTU OXYZ[E V\]DF V\^ GEF_DO` abYP c d[e f^ ghQi BCDEF GFH CID :./012/

GEF_DE dMz . YQj d[Y` k[F_PF gUYN lmn RFC` V\U kTopqE rs OMtOUKE uTU vFmU EwX xDy uTU

{ c |i gUYNF }W~ gqO€DE

9;9TKU BC? 82 O7 Q /<R9S 9:M9CN O9P 9:DEFGH2 I9J/KL 9:2 9;<2/= >?=@A BC? 82 /67 :3/452/

RO vC‚DE vYhz eECIS` ƒF„E fU OMDOopqE C‚` gqO€DE CI‚DE …†F EyOz ‡ ˆMZN ‰nF RL]Š OMD GF_DE ‰nF RE ‹cŒ

uTU mncE gŽZ\ŠF ‡ dWopP ˆDSDE gpz OMh~ToSD vOUEY^ OMD V‘ŠF_P RO EyŒ O^iF . JOWUYNF JO~W~

. OM‹o’Š O^ Yy u\hWD ˆW“IDE ”O`m^

112

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=5&cid=353

Looking at all of these Hadiths we can conclude that:

1. If the marriage is not into the benefit of the daughter then a father cannot practice

this right (similar to using her money, it must only be in her benefit).

2. If it will hurt (Dharar) the daughter body or emotions, then it is not legitimate for the

father to practice it.

3. If it was proven that it is for the benefit of the daughter, and it did not hurt her in

any way, then the daughter still have the right to stop this marriage when she

reaches the age of 9.

This can easily mean that such marriage cannot be practice in our time. Because

there isn't any benefit for a child to get married in an early age. Beside the fact that any

sexual relationship with a child in that age would harm her at least emotionally, which is

forbidden in the Islamic Rulings.

Yes, if a father has a teenage daughter, who is draining in her sins and wouldn't stop.

A father can practice her right and have her marry a person who can control her and keep

her away from the sinning path.

Hope this helps in clarifying the issue,

Abu Yaqeen

12/3/2010

sorry for the mistakes i copied it from a pdf document dont know why it came out like this.

you have to remember just becuase something is religiously allowed does not mean it is socially or psychologicly allowed. the feild of science also plays a role.

the problem with rulings is that they are not specific and are limited to the circumstance otherwise who can deny that thighing psychologiclly wouldnt harm a child it does but religiously we dont have any information against it so its allowed from a religious perspective.

ws wr wb

Edited by mo87_11014
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Well thank God, I am spared from having to translate the fatwa. Thanks Nader.

@ Brother mo87

Thanks for that article. It explains well the provisions and conditions of such marriages and the reason why they are not made haraam mutlaq.

@ OP

Brother I think the article that mo87 posted shows why you must not rush to judgements. Of course, the translation you read turned out to be a fabrication, but you stated that you were disgusted by the very fact that Imam Khomeini made it permissible.

Brother cc_30 said in another thread: "Leave fiqh to the fuqaha." This is a statement which we must follow. We cannot become disgusted by a ruling when we are ignorant of something. I will quote Dr. Shariati: "The reasonable patient is the one who doesn’t try to use his reasoning skills to disagree with the physician who is treating him. Trying to use rationality in this case is irrational, and so reason dictates that one practice obedience and taqleed."

Edited by baradar_jackson
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(salam)

(bismillah)

The OP's translation that he has pasted is really off, but the main part that gets everyone is what is in red in my earlier post (click here: ). I also wanted to get the pic from my personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah, that way people do not just outright reject this fatwa, as I have seen happen so many times. As I said earlier, al-Khomeini isn't alone on this fatwa, al-Sistani has it also (he adds "kissing" - التقبيل), and other scholars as well.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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(salam)

(bismillah)

The OP's translation that he has pasted is really off, but the main part that gets everyone is what is in red in my earlier post (click here: ). I also wanted to get the pic from my personal copy of al-Khomeini's TaHreer al-Waseelah, that way people do not just outright reject this fatwa, as I have seen happen so many times. As I said earlier, al-Khomeini isn't alone on this fatwa, al-Sistani has it also (he adds "kissing" - ÇáÊÞÈíá), and other scholars as well.

(salam)

Oh I see, so you're using it to discredit them?

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Ruling #12: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage.......

  • Source:
  • al-Khomeini, taHreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 241, Kitaab al-Nikaah, Ruling # 12

Ruling #18: It is not permission to have intercourse before (her) being 9 years old, be it in nikkaaH (permanent marriage) or temporary marriage. As for all other pleasures such as lustful touch, kissing, embracing, and thighing, there is no problem in it...

  • Source:
  • al-Sistani, Minhaaj al-SaaliHeen, vol. 3, pg. 10

Woah, woah.... Did everyone else miss that. 9 years old? 9? Am i the only one who finds that repulsive and disgusting...

Edited by kingpomba
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On 8/1/2011 at 1:21 PM, kingpomba said:

Oh thank God, what exactly is conditional though, you just said "They"? But im happy they are conditional. Heart attack averted haha.

What exactly are the conditions?

'They' meaning the rulings. You have to understand that many Islamic rulings given by these Muslim jurists have conditions attached to them. Also according to Islamic jurists everything is allowed unless there is evidence from the Quran or the teachings of the Prophet (sa) that it is disallowed.

In this case nine is the very minimum age and it is generally conditional upon the girl being physically and mentally mature enough so that no harm comes to her. People should not look at these particular types of laws as a guide for recommended practice, rather the law has been stated without all the conditions because under certain circumstances it may be aplicable. How many Muslim jurists do you see getting their daughters married at the age of nine?

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People should not look at these particular types of laws as a guide for recommended practice, rather the law has been stated without all the conditions because under certain circumstances it may be aplicable. How many Muslim jurists do you see getting their daughters married at the age of nine?

I think you have hit the key point here.

Let's face it, the people who bring up these rulings do not have illumination, understanding or anything else constructive as their objective. It's more of a fishing expedition designed to attack scholars.

These people judge everything with the lens of the 21st century, they do not realise that Islamic laws have to be relevant/applicable to all times and situations. The very same people would be (and usually are) the first to criticise Islam if they find an aspect of Islamic law to be difficult to practice today.

Mashallah most of us live in a level of ease and comfort that for ALL preceding generations was only possible for the very wealthiest in society.

Human life for the most part of our species existence has been short, uncomfortable, uncertain and dangerous. People have had to take very difficult decisions, including selling themselves and their children into slavery and perhaps marrying daughters off at a very young age, because there simply were not resources to feed them.

By the grace of God we do not need to make these decisions.

But to criticise an ethical framework that allows people to function in such situations is the height of arrogance and victim blaming.

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Salaam,

When looking at this topic we have to understand a few points:

It is agreed by the scholars that a father can marry his daughter at a young age to a man, the father is the wali of the girl. This is something that is not disputed. This falls in the realm of marriage. But what is confusing to some is the sexual activity description that was pointed out. An example to illustrate this better: A baligh(reached puberty) boy has become an orphan(his father and mother both passed away). Now his uncle wants to take him in, but the uncle is married and at the same time has a young daughter at the age of 5. The wife of the uncle is non-mahram to the boy, meaning he cannot see her without a scarf and there are limitations between them. So in order to solve this, the uncle marries his daughter to the boy(this could be temporary or permanent marriage, where temporary is the more logical approach in this example, but the permanent may apply, I'm just trying to make a point revolving around "marriage" in general). So now the boy is mahram to the uncle's wife. The boy under this marriage, is lawful to the uncles daughter, whatever legalities offered in a marriage contract is applied to this marriage also, because this constitutes the marriage contract. The definition of marriage is there(you can't say marriage is this and has xyz restrictions, unless those restrictions are mentioned in Qur'an and hadith). But what has been made lawful to us is the opportunity to set some conditions during the marriage contract, meaning that the uncle may set conditions before the marriage contract, and the boy agrees to these conditions before marriage and the contract includes those conditions. For example: The boy will marry the daughter and there will be no sexual activity between the two(you can limit this condition until a specific age, or permanently, or until the uncle's consent). This is the condition applied to marriage, and not a condition of marriage itself. The restriction that penetration must not happen until the age of 9, is a condition of marriage itself because it is linked to Shari'ah(from Qur'an and hadith). Even that is a subject of its own. There are many more conditions, definitions, rulings and examples that should be introduced here, but it will take a while and is a long subject. It's not as apparent as it may seem. Like what are the rulings on the marriage when the girl reaches bulugh and calls off the marriage, and what if she is not baligh yet and calls off the marriage, and so on.

Edited by MAFHJ
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sallamun alaykum

bro its as your imagining for us this is disgusting (if it is true). abu yaqeen has written a reply regarding this question:

sorry for the mistakes i copied it from a pdf document dont know why it came out like this.

you have to remember just becuase something is religiously allowed does not mean it is socially or psychologicly allowed. the feild of science also plays a role.

the problem with rulings is that they are not specific and are limited to the circumstance otherwise who can deny that thighing psychologiclly wouldnt harm a child it does but religiously we dont have any information against it so its allowed from a religious perspective.

ws wr wb

How convinient it is for them to blame it on ahadees. Study this subject and u will see that this according ti sunnis is a sunnat of rasool Allah saws; astaghfirullah.

It could be a clear case of taqiyya or the conditionally allowed stuff without adding or substracting a word from ahadees will give better picture.

Although marriage just before or after puberty is encouraged; majority of Muslims today cannot and will not do it and its not a wajib thing to be so concerned of.

Ya Ali Madad

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On 8/1/2011 at 2:29 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

'They' meaning the rulings. You have to understand that many Islamic rulings given by these Muslim jurists have conditions attached to them. Also according to Islamic jurists everything is allowed unless there is evidence from the Quran or the teachings of the Prophet (sa) that it is disallowed.

In this case nine is the very minimum age and it is generally conditional upon the girl being physically and mentally mature enough so that no harm comes to her. People should not look at these particular types of laws as a guide for recommended practice, rather the law has been stated without all the conditions because under certain circumstances it may be aplicable. How many Muslim jurists do you see getting their daughters married at the age of nine?

I can't think of any circumstances where it would be beneficial for the child. Can you?

And the fact that Muslim jurists don't get their daughters married at such a young age just shows even they know it is wrong.

@Haji 2003: I am trying to be as objective as possible, which is why I'm continuing to research this issue, but I still can't accept it. Are you basically telling me that I'm too ignorant to understand the need for such a law? Then am I just supposed to accept everything I hear without thinking about it, because it's impossible for me to fully grasp god's knowledge?

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I can't think of any circumstances where it would be beneficial for the child. Can you?

And the fact that Muslim jurists don't get their daughters married at such a young age just shows even they know it is wrong.

@Haji 2003: I am trying to be as objective as possible, which is why I'm continuing to research this issue, but I still can't accept it. Are you basically telling me that I'm too ignorant to understand the need for such a law? Then am I just supposed to accept everything I hear without thinking about it, because it's impossible for me to fully grasp god's knowledge?

Did you read brother MAFHJ's post?

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Did you read brother MAFHJ's post?

Yes, and he didn't provide a good example.

I want a situation where it would be beneficial to marry "a child as young as a suckling infant", and to perform sexual acts on that child that do not involve penetration.

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Yes, and he didn't provide a good example.

I want a situation where it would be beneficial to marry "a child as young as a suckling infant", and to perform sexual acts on that child that do not involve penetration.

Salaam,

Why are you asking for an example of marrying a child where sexual acts become beneficial for that child? This is something no one is talking about, you are narrowing this marriage to a case that no one is even discussing. The fatwa was not issued for the reason of having sexual pleasure with a child, it is a condition that automatically activates within a marriage contract, and there are ways to forbid it. No one is saying there is something beneficial for the baby girl. I will try to explain it better....

We have:

Marriage: Marriage in Islamic law means that two people, a boy and a girl, undergo a contract where they become lawful to one another. Meaning the husband and wife are granted privileges between each other they did not have when they were not married. These privileges are granted according to Islamic law, and they are inseparable from the marriage contract in itself. Meaning the marriage contract holds these privileges with it, the privileges are what constitute the marriage contract, just like any contract. These privileges are many, but in this case we are interested only in discussing one of them, and that is the sexual activity privilege granted between the husband and wife. The sexual privilege activity is part of this marriage contract and is a basic privilege granted under the definition of "marriage". So to repeat it one more time so it is clear, when defining "marriage", the privilege of sexual activity is already granted, and part of the marriage contract. Also, the part about penetration and how the girl must be 9 years old is part of the Islamic marriage contract automatically, meaning just as the contract grants certain privileges it also has restrictions. These are embedded in the marriage contract.

Now, since that has been established, we know that marriage is defined and all those privileges come with it and are defined within the marriage contract automatically. But according to Islamic law, we do have this option that allows us to amend the marriage contract by adding conditions based on what the two parties agree upon before the contract is performed. As I have pointed out before, the marriage contract may say: The baby girl and the boy will not undergo any sexual activity with one another until (the girl reaches a certain age, or never, etc.).

So we have established the definition of marriage and what constitutes the marriage contract, and what is granted to the married couple according to the definition of marriage. We also established before, that it is permissible for the father to marry his baby daughter to a man, because he is the wali(guardian) of the girl, this is something Islamic scholars agree upon, and an example was also given in my previous post in how this may apply. Islam has defined marriage and has made it applicable to many scenarios. I only gave one example in the previous post because that is all that is needed to prove a point. You cannot have a problem with the fatwa that is attributed to Imam Khomeini and the other scholars without having a problem with the definition of marriage itself. If you say that the boy cannot perform sexual acts with the girl under the marriage contract you have redefined the very meaning of marriage, with marriage comes sexual privileges, it is up to the two parties to establish conditions/restrictions if they wish to.There is no proof of it being unlawful, so it is lawful in itself. Logically, what are the chances that someone will marry an infant for sexual reasons, and on top of that the father giving permission for that sole reason. Although, in the end, whatever the reason is that they do get married, the two parties have the option to forbid it and restrict it in the marriage contract.

There is much more to say and it can get deeper if people ask for example about the rights of the girl if she asks for divorce when she is not baligh, and what if she is baligh and so on, which are granted to the girl in these cases, but for this specific discussion, this is the basis and very simple to understand.

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Salaam,

Why are you asking for an example of marrying a child where sexual acts become beneficial for that child? This is something no one is talking about, you are narrowing this marriage to a case that no one is even discussing. The fatwa was not issued for the reason of having sexual pleasure with a child, it is a condition that automatically activates within a marriage contract, and there are ways to forbid it. No one is saying there is something beneficial for the baby girl. I will try to explain it better....

We have:

Marriage: Marriage in Islamic law means that two people, a boy and a girl, undergo a contract where they become lawful to one another. Meaning the husband and wife are granted privileges between each other they did not have when they were not married. These privileges are granted according to Islamic law, and they are inseparable from the marriage contract in itself. Meaning the marriage contract holds these privileges with it, the privileges are what constitute the marriage contract, just like any contract. These privileges are many, but in this case we are interested only in discussing one of them, and that is the sexual activity privilege granted between the husband and wife. The sexual privilege activity is part of this marriage contract and is a basic privilege granted under the definition of "marriage". So to repeat it one more time so it is clear, when defining "marriage", the privilege of sexual activity is already granted, and part of the marriage contract. Also, the part about penetration and how the girl must be 9 years old is part of the Islamic marriage contract automatically, meaning just as the contract grants certain privileges it also has restrictions. These are embedded in the marriage contract.

Now, since that has been established, we know that marriage is defined and all those privileges come with it and are defined within the marriage contract automatically. But according to Islamic law, we do have this option that allows us to amend the marriage contract by adding conditions based on what the two parties agree upon before the contract is performed. As I have pointed out before, the marriage contract may say: The baby girl and the boy will not undergo any sexual activity with one another until (the girl reaches a certain age, or never, etc.).

So we have established the definition of marriage and what constitutes the marriage contract, and what is granted to the married couple according to the definition of marriage. We also established before, that it is permissible for the father to marry his baby daughter to a man, because he is the wali(guardian) of the girl, this is something Islamic scholars agree upon, and an example was also given in my previous post in how this may apply. Islam has defined marriage and has made it applicable to many scenarios. I only gave one example in the previous post because that is all that is needed to prove a point. You cannot have a problem with the fatwa that is attributed to Imam Khomeini and the other scholars without having a problem with the definition of marriage itself. If you say that the boy cannot perform sexual acts with the girl under the marriage contract you have redefined the very meaning of marriage, with marriage comes sexual privileges, it is up to the two parties to establish conditions/restrictions if they wish to.There is no proof of it being unlawful, so it is lawful in itself. Logically, what are the chances that someone will marry an infant for sexual reasons, and on top of that the father giving permission for that sole reason. Although, in the end, whatever the reason is that they do get married, the two parties have the option to forbid it and restrict it in the marriage contract.

There is much more to say and it can get deeper if people ask for example about the rights of the girl if she asks for divorce when she is not baligh, and what if she is baligh and so on, which are granted to the girl in these cases, but for this specific discussion, this is the basis and very simple to understand.

You're missing the whole issue. Sexual acts are automatically activated in marriage, true, but the whole issue is marriage to an infant! You're right, you can put restrictions on the marriage, but why allow something so disgusting in the first place? What if there was a law saying "You are allowed to beat your wife all you want." Would you tell me "Oh, but there are ways to forbid it in marriage." WHY ALLOW IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? (note: i know Islam doesn't say you can beat your wife, i just wanted to clarify my point).

And the chances are pretty good someone will marry an infant for sexual reasons. Have you heard of pedophiles?

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Asalamou 'aleykoum,

Sorry, translate with google

"According to the hadith of Infallible (as), however:

"If a man wants to marry his daughter even infants (eg if he is very ill and fear of dying), the marriage contract is null and void until she reaches the age of 9, and man has no right to touch her." [...]

french:

Selon les hadiths des Infaillibles (as), toutefois :

« Si un homme souhaite marier sa fille encore nourrisson (par exemple s'il est très malade et craint de mourir), le contrat de mariage n'entre pas en puissance jusqu'à ce qu'elle atteigne l'âge de 9 ans, et l'homme n'a aucun droit de la toucher.

A neuf ans, le juge demande à la fille si elle accepte le mariage ou pas, si oui, le mariage entre en vigueur, sinon il est annulé.

Si l'homme la touche avant que la fille ait atteint l'âge de 9 ans, et avant que la fille ait prononcé l'acceptation le juge condamnera l'homme s'il l'a touchée. »

Edited by Jihad-Fadak
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I am sorry, but I am not totally convinced about the existence of this quote. I have found two English translations from Tahrir Al-Wasilah 

(http://ijtihad.ir/images/FileUploaded/3042.pdf

and

http://web.archive.org/web/20110501151521/http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/fiqh&usool/islamic-laws/tahrir/index.html),

and I couldn't locate this quote from either one of them.

Where is it supposed to be located exactly? Which section? Which chapter? Thanks!

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