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In the Name of God بسم الله

First Mut'ah Contract Insha'Allah

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

What a blessing, I 'think' I may have arranged my first mut'ah contract, but since I don't know exactly the specifics please someone guide me in these circumstances. The girl's father is muslim, however she declares herself to be Christian(I think her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who is Christian, far away from her father). She is willing to do the contract.

Do we have to make the contract if we are just going to sit alone in a private place, park etc. or do you only do the Mut'ah when you are planning to definitely 'touch' the other person?

Also, Im pretty sure she has NEVER been married before but....she declares herself to be Christian, do I still have to get father's permission-provided she also doesn't live with him?

Do I need to fulfill any other obligations etc?

Edited by slave.ofAllah
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Have you considered stepping back and examining the precepts of a "religion" that sanctions thinly veiled allowances for prostitution under the guise of a "contract"?

Will you enter the terms of this contract on a hourly basis?

^ Shut up!

Im tired of this [Edited Out]!, Mutah is the sunnah u fool!

Brother slave.ofAllah, alhamdulilah, Allah (aj) has given you tawfeek to practice the sunnah!

Ignore this idiot above.

I am not a 100% sure but I think if she hasn't been married before then u need the father's permission. Also, do u do Taqleed??? I think only Fadhlulah (qas) says that you do not need the father's permission.

I believe Sistani may distinguish between a wholly indepedent girl and a girl dependent on her parents. Is this girl financially independent??? Or does she depend on her family for money?

Anyways good luck.

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(salam)

i always wondered what this term, obligatory precaution, meant cuz it seemed like an oxymoron to me so heres syed sistanis fatwa for it:

If an A'lam Mujtahid gives a fatwa on some matter, his follower cannot act in that matter on the fatwa of another Mujtahid. But if he does not give a fatwa, and expresses a precaution (Ihtiyat) that a man should act in such and such a manner, for example if he says that as a precautionary measure, in the first and second Rak'at of the namaz he should read a complete Surah after the Surah of "Hamd", the follower may either act on this precaution, which is called obligatory precaution (Ihtiyat Wajib), or he may act on the fatwa of another Mujtahid who it is permissible to follow.

Hence, if he (the second Mujtahid) rules that only "Surah Hamd" is enough, he (the person offering prayers) may drop the second Surah. The position will be the same if the A'a lam Mujtahid expresses terms like Ta'mmul or Ishkal

So no matter which mujtahid you follow, all or most have called obligatory precaution on asking the father's permission so you could follow Ayatollah Fadhlallah's fatwa and not ask permission although its always better to go through with the parents. I mean say later on in the relationship you guys get serious and think of getting permanently married, you would have to tell your father you've been hiding this relationship from him or you would have to lie and say you never had a relationship. Either way you're in trouble, with the father in the former and with All-h in the latter. Also, I wouldn't want my daughter doing mut'ah behind my back so I would respect her father's right and position on wanting to know what goes on in his daughters' life.

Plus girls love it when you tell them how you respect their fathers rights ;)

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Guest Mushu

^ is telling people to shut up and calling them fools the sunnah also You wasteman

kEEP YOUr tings inside your trousers fam and stop gettin excited.

Anyways dude how old are you???

Loool, why are you such a don? :wub:

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^ is telling people to shut up and calling them fools the sunnah also You wasteman

kEEP YOUr tings inside your trousers fam and stop gettin excited.

Anyways dude how old are you???

Not surprising coming from u. I know ur views on mutah.

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MUSHU easy now babes whass goin on

Yeah this guy is evidently a young kid who has no guidance right now otherwise he wouldn't be coming on shiachat to ask people. I personally would suggest that he gets to know himself better. Do you even know what you're doing aswell la fata with your mutah extravaganza excitedness...its all good to crack jokes about mutah and what not because its such a taboo subject, but youths who don't even know their strengths and weaknesses should be helped differently first...this stuff can be addressed also.

Anyways im not najaf.org ...apparently they have all the answers to lifes problems

bruv come chatroom quickly

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Have you considered stepping back and examining the precepts of a "religion" that sanctions thinly veiled allowances for prostitution under the guise of a "contract"?

Will you enter the terms of this contract on a hourly basis?

You can call any marriage prostitution then. So, take your [Edited Out] elsewhere.

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"Do we have to make the contract if we are just going to sit alone in a private place, park etc. or do you only do the Mut'ah when you are planning to definitely 'touch' the other person?"

- i think you have to make the contract , even if you are just gonna hang out with her alone .

"Also, Im pretty sure she has NEVER been married before but....she declares herself to be Christian, do I still have to get father's permission-provided she also doesn't live with him?

-you don't need her father permission if she's independent ."refer to your marja"

"Do I need to fulfill any other obligations etc? "

-No.

and about la fata illa Ali ""Im tired of this [Edited Out]!, Mutah is the sunnah u fool!"

Muta isn't Sunnah it's just permissible , the prophet didn't practice it or any Imam .

Edited by ShiaMujahid
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That doesn't make sense, al.

Are you not aware of the dangers of blind allegiance to an ancient theocratic code?

Ok I will admit I havn't looked into the issue of Mut'ah deep enough, but in the past every time I've ignorantly questioned the slightest ruling over a scholar i end up getting proven wrong, so if all the scholars have ruled it permissble there definetely is enough evidence for it to be permissible. Secondly, I don't really see the alternative.....I could possibly fast for as long as possible until I find a permanent wife but that could possibly take years, and that would possibly weaken my body like a twig. And NO our intention is not to have sexual intercourse or anything, just that way I can meet up with her in private places. I don't see where all the negativity came from, isn't this a good way to keep everything halal if you want to get to know somebody and not engage in a forbidden look or forbidden talk prior to ask for her hand in marriage.

You people must review the way you think. Im assuming you guys are all perfect in lowering your gaze, prefect in being patient in finding a wife. Masha'Allah

"Do not make haram the good things which Allah has made halal for you"

MUSHU easy now babes whass goin on

Yeah this guy is evidently a young kid who has no guidance right now otherwise he wouldn't be coming on shiachat to ask people. I personally would suggest that he gets to know himself better. Do you even know what you're doing aswell la fata with your mutah extravaganza excitedness...its all good to crack jokes about mutah and what not because its such a taboo subject, but youths who don't even know their strengths and weaknesses should be helped differently first...this stuff can be addressed also.

Anyways im not najaf.org ...apparently they have all the answers to lifes problems

What's wrong with coming on shiachat to ask people? Isn't this place for asking questions?.....so if you find a slight objection with a matter which the jurists/ahadith deem permissble, but you don't deem it permissible IT SUDDENLY BECOMES FORBIDDEN TO TALK ABOUT?

Get to know myself better, how and why?

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  • Advanced Member

Muta isn't Sunnah it's just permissible , the prophet didn't practice it or any Imam .

You have to be very careful as Allah (aj) sends his lanat on the liars. I dont have the hadith with me but I hope someone with knowledge answers this uneducated claim. Of course they practised mutah!!!!

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That doesn't make sense, al.

Are you not aware of the dangers of blind allegiance to an ancient theocratic code?

I've reported your post.

You are not welcome in the section meant SPECIFICALLY for SHIAS. Why are you coming into an Islamic forum and criticizing an Islamic practice? Quit throwing around big words and get the hell out. The brother came here for advice from SHIAS, and SHIAS only. So get the hell out.

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  • Advanced Member

stay away of girls and Mutah....if u are under 18.

concentrate on studies.

and if you dont you will regret in your future.

lol I really disagree with this post.

If at the age of 18 I was able to do Mut'ah im sure it would have prevented me from engaging in many other sorts of mischief AND YES EVEN HELP ME CONCENTRATE ON STUDIES. Im sure many brothers agree.

I've reported your post.

You are not welcome in the section meant SPECIFICALLY for SHIAS. Why are you coming into an Islamic forum and criticizing an Islamic practice? Quit throwing around big words and get the hell out. The brother came here for advice from SHIAS, and SHIAS only. So get the hell out.

iv reported him to :D

Edited by slave.ofAllah
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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

Muta isn't Sunnah it's just permissible , the prophet didn't practice it or any Imam .

The Prophet (SAWAS) did practice it, and it isn't just permissible in our hadeeth it is said it is MustaHab (recommended) to do it, rather it is makrooh (disliked) not to do at least one mut`a in your life.

Here is a SaHeeH hadeeth that says mut`a is mustaHab. This is a great chain by the way.

Taken from Al-Mufeed's Risaalah Al-Mut`ah

عن أبي القاسم جعفر بن محمد بن قولويه عن أبيه عن سعد بن عبد الله عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن ابن أبي عمير عن هشام بن سالم عن أبي عبد الله ع قال يستحب للرجل أن يتزوج المتعة و ما أحب للرجل منكم أن يخرج من الدنيا حتى يتزوج المتعة و لو مرة

Abee `Abd Allaah (as) said: "It is mustahab for the man that he marries (in) mut`a. And I do not love that a man from you leave the world until he marries (in) mut`a, even if it is once.

  • Source:
  • Al-Mufeed, Risaalah Al-Mut`ah, pg. 7, hadeeth # 1

And Here is the SaHeeH hadeeth where it is said that the Prophet (SAWAS) practiced mut`a and it is makrooh not to do it once in your life:

وَ رَوَى بَكْرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْمُتْعَةِ فَقَالَ إِنِّي لَأَكْرَهُ لِلرَّجُلِ الْمُسْلِمِ أَنْ يَخْرُجَ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا وَ قَدْ بَقِيَتْ عَلَيْهِ خَلَّةٌ مِنْ خِلَالِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص لَمْ يَقْضِهَا

And it is narrated from Bakr bin Muhammad from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said, I asked him about mut`a. And he (عليه السلام) said: “Verily, it is makrooh for a Muslim man that he leaves from this world and there remains upon him a habit from the habits of the Messenger of Allaah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), which he has not fulfilled.”

  • Source:
  • al-Sadooq, Man Laa YaHDuruh al-Faqeeh, vol. 3, pg. 463, hadeeth # 4602
    Grading:
  • al-Majlisi's Father said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
    --> RawDah al-Muttaqqeen, vol. 8, pg. 498

The tareeq (path) from al-Sadooq to Bakr bin Muhammad is SaHeeH per al-Khoei in his Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, vol. 3, pg. 356, person # 1866:

و طريق الصدوق إليه: محمد بن الحسن - رضي الله عنه - عن محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن العباس بن معروف و أحمد بن إسحاق بن سعد و إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن بكر بن محمد الأزدي و الطريق صحيح.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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  • Advanced Member

Ok I will admit I havn't looked into the issue of Mut'ah deep enough, but in the past every time I've ignorantly questioned the slightest ruling over a scholar i end up getting proven wrong, so if all the scholars have ruled it permissble there definetely is enough evidence for it to be permissible. Secondly, I don't really see the alternative.....I could possibly fast for as long as possible until I find a permanent wife but that could possibly take years, and that would possibly weaken my body like a twig. And NO our intention is not to have sexual intercourse or anything, just that way I can meet up with her in private places. I don't see where all the negativity came from, isn't this a good way to keep everything halal if you want to get to know somebody and not engage in a forbidden look or forbidden talk prior to ask for her hand in marriage.

You people must review the way you think. Im assuming you guys are all perfect in lowering your gaze, prefect in being patient in finding a wife. Masha'Allah

"Do not make haram the good things which Allah has made halal for you"

(salam)

Mashallah good point. This is one of the good ways mut`ah can be used as well

wassalam

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LA fata ella Ali "You have to be very careful as Allah (aj) sends his lanat on the liars. I dont have the hadith with me but I hope someone with knowledge answers this uneducated claim. Of course they practised mutah!!!! "

- Liars? lol i could be mistaken , Grow up and learn the ethics of speech ,your semi-insult comments aren't needed.

"The Prophet did practice mut`ah. Look up his marriage with Sayyida Maria [r]. "

- Sayyida Maria was the prophets jarriyah."as it is known among muslims "

"Nader Zaveri"

-personally i don't believe these hadeeths but im gonna ask/read about it anyway.

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LA fata ella Ali "You have to be very careful as Allah (aj) sends his lanat on the liars. I dont have the hadith with me but I hope someone with knowledge answers this uneducated claim. Of course they practised mutah!!!! "

- Liars? lol i could be mistaken , Grow up and learn the ethics of speech ,your semi-insult comments aren't needed.

"The Prophet did practice mut`ah. Look up his marriage with Sayyida Maria [r]. "

- Sayyida Maria was the prophets jarriyah."as it is known among muslims "

"Nader Zaveri"

-personally i don't believe these hadeeths but im gonna ask/read about it anyway.

The highlighted part is just astounding. It doesn't matter what you "personally" choose to believe; you are obligated to follow ahadith which have been given sahih gradings by our scholars, not half-assed cherry-picking like "I don't believe such and such".

Next you're gonna tell me you don't believe that listening to music is a sin, and even the ahadith which talk about it?

What has the world come to seriously... We let our prejudices and societal influences take precedence over the religion dictated by the Ahlul Bayt (as) .

Edited by Legio Invicta
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  • Advanced Member

We do not have unanimous agreement on many so called Saheeh Hadeeths between Shia scholars , and that's why i said i'll ASK/READ about it "refer to "my" Scholars"

and btw God gave us something called "aql "and im not afraid to use it .

Edited by ShiaMujahid
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Im trying to brainstorm the possibilities for one to reject Mut'ah using pure logic:

-one has perfect control over their nafs as a result of fasting and eating minimal amounts of food, and no longer seeks bodily desires

-one finds it normal to interact with the opposite sex already so no longer worries about doing it the "correct way"

-one continues patiently, praying to Allah(swt) for marriage in the future, and thus remains content

Come on 'aql definitely tells us there must be a way for those who cannot get married to interact with the other sex. There is a hadith where Imam Ali(as) says if 'Umar never banned mut'ah there would have never been any adultery(something along those lines insha'Allah someone can get the actually hadith)

So those who claim logic/reason/'aql must fit into one of the above categories...

Edited by slave.ofAllah
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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

"Nader Zaveri"

-personally i don't believe these hadeeths but im gonna ask/read about it anyway.

Do not think that the Hadeeth of the Prophet doing mut`a is just one, actually there are many many hadeeth that says that the Prophet (pbuh) practiced mut`a. And no scholars, who know `ilm al-hadeeth, would doubt the authenticity of the two hadeeth I have provided.

Come on 'aql definitely tells us there must be a way for those who cannot get married to interact with the other sex. There is a hadith where Imam Ali(as) says if 'Umar never banned mut'ah there would have never been any adultery(something along those lines insha'Allah someone can get the actually hadith)

ãõÍóãóøÏõ Èúäõ ÅöÓúãóÇÚöíáó Úóäö ÇáúÝóÖúáö Èúäö ÔóÇÐóÇäó Úóäú ÕóÝúæóÇäó Èúäö íóÍúíóì Úóäö ÇÈúäö ãõÓúßóÇäó Úóäú ÚóÈúÏö Çááóøåö Èúäö ÓõáóíúãóÇäó ÞóÇáó ÓóãöÚúÊõ ÃóÈóÇ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Ú íóÞõæáõ ßóÇäó Úóáöíñø Ú íóÞõæáõ áóæú áóÇ ãóÇ ÓóÈóÞóäöí Èöåö Èóäöí ÇáúÎóØóøÇÈö ãóÇ Òóäóì ÅöáóøÇ ÔóÞöíñø

From `Abd Allaah bin Sulaymaan said, I heard Abaa Ja`far, and he said that `Alee (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: “If it were not for what Banee al-KhaTTaab predated me with, none would do zinaa except wretched”

  • Source:
  • al-Kulayni, al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 448, hadeeth # 2
    Grading:
  • al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Majhool (Unknown)
    --> Mir'aat al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 227

(salam)

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  • Advanced Member

The highlighted part is just astounding. It doesn't matter what you "personally" choose to believe; you are obligated to follow ahadith which have been given sahih gradings by our scholars, not half-assed cherry-picking like "I don't believe such and such".

Next you're gonna tell me you don't believe that listening to music is a sin, and even the ahadith which talk about it?

What has the world come to seriously... We let our prejudices and societal influences take precedence over the religion dictated by the Ahlul Bayt (as) .

+1.

Also in Wisael as Shia, there is a riwayat that states that Imam Ali (as) married a lady from kufa in Zawaj Mutah.

Too many akhis innovating in da deen blad, tryna make Islam a sunni ting.

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  • Advanced Member

(salam)

(bismillah)

Also in Wisael as Shia, there is a riwayat that states that Imam Ali (as) married a lady from kufa in Zawaj Mutah.

Yes, this hadeeth is da`eef (weak) due to it being mursal (disconnected chain):

ÞóÇáó æó Ñóæóì ÇÈúäõ ÈóÇÈóæóíúåö ÈöÅöÓúäóÇÏöåö Ãóäóø ÚóáöíøÇð Ú äóßóÍó ÇãúÑóÃóÉð ÈöÇáúßõæÝóÉö ãöäú Èóäöí äóåúÔóáò ãõÊúÚóÉð

He said: Ibn Baabuwayh has narrated that `Alee (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) married a woman in Kufa from Bani Nahshal in mut`a

  • Source:
  • al-`Aamulee, Wasaa'il al-Shee`ah, vol. 21, ch. 1, pg. 10, hadeeth # 26378

(salam)

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  • Advanced Member

Sleep with random people just for sexual pleasure without a serious relationship and you're a very bad person and a sinner. Definitely haram.

Do mut'ah...its suddenly ok to sleep around and adulterate, in exactly the same way?

Am i the only one who notices the contradiction here....

Whats stopping people from having 100's of mutah contracts, one after the other, becoming as bad as the western society and the morals and values of certain segments of western society they look down upon.

If it was definitely haram of course people wouldn't do it. If theres good odds that isn't haram (50/50 chance), there are plenty of people who will do it just because they can, because they are allowed to sleep around within islamic framework they will. They won't control their desires, they'll just do this. It's a weakining of faith and not to mention personal morals and ethics if you ask me. It seems some people are just finding ways to do ethically bad things under the guise of islam and not feel bad about it. Just because its allowed, doesn't mean you should do it. Even if it has nothing to do with islam, what about your own personal ethics and morals...are you so willing to sacrafice that for a little worldy pleasure? Sell yourself out for a night with this "Christian".

What about protecting your dignity for a proper marriage? A real one. Not a one night stand, a contract for sex.

Its worse than prostitution, the only fee you pay is in honour in this case.

The thing here is its temporary. There doesn't have to be any commitment, love or mutual respect for each other like in a proper marriage. It is a very important distinction to make.

Think about the morality of it, really please do.

This is one thing that has always distinctly stuck out for me in shi'a islam. It sticks out like a sore thumb, its a big ink blot on the religion of shi'a islam. It just seems so out of place with the rest of the system. I thought religion, especially one as comprehensive as islam, would be free from so many of the plagues that pop up in western society because of lack of morals and yet i found one of those problems right here, it shocked me the first time i heard about the concept.

Don't be weak and cave into your desires, be strong and keep your morals strong.

You can live without doing this, especially during such an auspicious month such as Ramadan.

I'm not telling you what to do or whats right or wrong, its just my opinion. Read whatever scholars you want, take anyones opinion you want, I'm just offering mine. I'm not making a fatwa or anything, someone once accused me of this. I doubt anyone will mistake me as a sheik :P. I'm just offering my expressing my own opinion and my advice. This seems like an amoral act to me personally but do what you want.

It might be worth to take a step back and look at some of your thoughts though. Don't rush into it.

Hows this... Your modernist take on Islam could quite possibly take you out the fold of Islam, especially when viewed in light of Quran (4:24) and hadith (too numerous to mention here, do a search of the multiple other Mutah threads).

As for your belitting of the Zawaj of Mutah here is something for you to ponder on. You hold disdain for the words which must be spoken which make an act which would otherwise be zina into a halal one. Remember the act of sexual relations aren't haram in and of themselves. Now consider the similitude of a lamb chop. The lamb is slaughtered ear to ear but the Butcher doesn't say 'Bismillah'. The meat becomes haram and has an effect on the spiritual well being of the human being. Then after that another butcher slaughters a lamb from ear to ear and simply says 'Bismillah'. That lamb chop is now halal, all over the recitation of 1 single word. One word. The difference between heaven and hell. The same applies here, please don't impress on us your deviant understanding, undoubtedly influenced by Western Modernism.

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Sleep with random people just for sexual pleasure without a serious relationship and you're a very bad person and a sinner. Definitely haram.

Do mut'ah...its suddenly ok to sleep around and adulterate, in exactly the same way?

Am i the only one who notices the contradiction here....

Whats stopping people from having 100's of mutah contracts, one after the other, becoming as bad as the western society and the morals and values of certain segments of western society they look down upon.

If it was definitely haram of course people wouldn't do it. If theres good odds that isn't haram (50/50 chance), there are plenty of people who will do it just because they can, because they are allowed to sleep around within islamic framework they will. They won't control their desires, they'll just do this. It's a weakining of faith and not to mention personal morals and ethics if you ask me. It seems some people are just finding ways to do ethically bad things under the guise of islam and not feel bad about it. Just because its allowed, doesn't mean you should do it. Even if it has nothing to do with islam, what about your own personal ethics and morals...are you so willing to sacrafice that for a little worldy pleasure? Sell yourself out for a night with this "Christian".

What about protecting your dignity for a proper marriage? A real one. Not a one night stand, a contract for sex.

Its worse than prostitution, the only fee you pay is in honour in this case.

The thing here is its temporary. There doesn't have to be any commitment, love or mutual respect for each other like in a proper marriage. It is a very important distinction to make.

Think about the morality of it, really please do.

This is one thing that has always distinctly stuck out for me in shi'a islam. It sticks out like a sore thumb, its a big ink blot on the religion of shi'a islam. It just seems so out of place with the rest of the system. I thought religion, especially one as comprehensive as islam, would be free from so many of the plagues that pop up in western society because of lack of morals and yet i found one of those problems right here, it shocked me the first time i heard about the concept.

Don't be weak and cave into your desires, be strong and keep your morals strong.

You can live without doing this, especially during such an auspicious month such as Ramadan.

I'm not telling you what to do or whats right or wrong, its just my opinion. Read whatever scholars you want, take anyones opinion you want, I'm just offering mine. I'm not making a fatwa or anything, someone once accused me of this. I doubt anyone will mistake me as a sheik :P. I'm just offering my expressing my own opinion and my advice. This seems like an amoral act to me personally but do what you want.

It might be worth to take a step back and look at some of your thoughts though. Don't rush into it.

If you read closely my intention is not for any sexual pleasure etc only that I can go see her, which might possibly happen that we end up alone in a private place. So much to say eh? How about you tell me the alternatives for a youth who can't get married???

You mentioned it as a weakening of faith....how could that possibly be the case.....if there was any doubt about the permissibilty of such an act I wouldn't bother whatsoever. In fact this is more a sign of faith then the absence of it.

My ethics/morals are not dictated by people's perceptions on issues, as long as God knows I am fulfilling his demands that is more than enough for me.

^well said to the brother Hassan Kachal, that approach can be applied to a multitude of other sins also.

Edited by slave.ofAllah
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Hows this... Your modernist take on Islam could quite possibly take you out the fold of Islam, especially when viewed in light of Quran (4:24) and hadith (too numerous to mention here, do a search of the multiple other Mutah threads).

He isn't a Muslim (look at his religion field on the left).

It baffles me how non-Muslims will come and condemn mut`a like this when I wonder to myself, have they never been on a date? Never had a girlfriend? Never slept with a woman in their life prior to their getting married (if they're even married)? They preach to us about self-control, etc., but how chaste have they been in their own lives? Hypocritical much?

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He isn't a Muslim (look at his religion field on the left).

It baffles me how non-Muslims will come and condemn mut`a like this when I wonder to myself, have they never been on a date? Never had a girlfriend? Never slept with a woman in their life prior to their getting married (if they're even married)? They preach to us about self-control, etc., but how chaste have they been in their own lives? Hypocritical much?

+1

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He isn't a Muslim (look at his religion field on the left).

It baffles me how non-Muslims will come and condemn mut`a like this when I wonder to myself, have they never been on a date? Never had a girlfriend? Never slept with a woman in their life prior to their getting married (if they're even married)? They preach to us about self-control, etc., but how chaste have they been in their own lives? Hypocritical much?

^well said. Have they ever tried controlling their gaze?

1st - You don't know how chaste i am in my own personal life. Just because i lack a religion doesn't mean i don't have morals. For the record i don't think it is moral outside of marriage or a long term, very serious relationship, one that i actually expect to go places and isn't about just about the physical. I don't do one night stands. So, I'm not being hypocritical at all. If i supported these things why would i argue against them? Surely i'd afford you the same chance to do what i do or sin how i do, if i did such a thing, who am i to say in that case.

2nd - Yes i have. Its not the polite or respectable thing to just continually stare at women that way or treat them at objects to be looked at.

We share a lot more morals than are evident. Difference is i believe in no god.

Edited by kingpomba
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He isn't a Muslim (look at his religion field on the left).

It baffles me how non-Muslims will come and condemn mut`a like this when I wonder to myself, have they never been on a date? Never had a girlfriend? Never slept with a woman in their life prior to their getting married (if they're even married)? They preach to us about self-control, etc., but how chaste have they been in their own lives? Hypocritical much?

My bad.

+1 on the second point. When you leave religion aside your morality is relative. As such that makes it pointless to attack the shia concept of mutah when really, everything goes.

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+1 on the second point. When you leave religion aside your morality is relative. As such that makes it pointless to attack the shia concept of mutah when really, everything goes.

I'm not sure what you mean here by everything goes? I still think what i said was valid in a philosophical sense, doesn't really seem pointless to me unless you care to elaborate.

Moral relativism isn't a good idea at all if thats what you're saying. It's because then suddenly, certain things are "ok" for some groups of people, like "canninbalism is acceptable in tribal areas, theyre just tribes afterall. It's definitely not in modern society." "Child marriages are fine in traditional india, but i wouldnt definitely like it going on here.". Those statements i make up point out the problem with moral relativism. Why is it only bad in certain places, for certain people or certain situations. Moral relativism also makes it very hard to nail down a proper code of ethics and guidelines to live your life on, infact, it makes it more or less impossible. This is the foundation of religion, one code of ethics and morality, for all people, everywhere.

When you go into moral relativism you destroy that idea. It becomes more like, multiple codes of unsure ethics, different for many different people, different for everywhere.

(Note: I'm not saying morals cant have exceptions in very rare and well defined circumstances eg. it being ok to kill or injure someone to save many lives. What i'm saying is you can't have different sets of morals for different people places ect which are largely the norm not the exception, i hope this is clear but i think i might of confused people, apologies if i have, if anyone has trouble i will try clarify)

Edited by kingpomba
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salaam

If there is no god then there is no eventual Equilibrium of justice right?

example of that is a tyrant that kills millions unjustly , he doesn't die a million times in this world does he? this leads to the belief that in this life complete justice is not achieved. so if we don't believe in a next life where Equilibrium would be established and where our actions will have their equivalent consequences then what is the motive of having any moral system? what does Good and Bad mean anymore?

definitely good and bad will become relative and most likely the selfish factor will play the prominent role in guiding the codes of this moral system. Every human loves himself, this means they love to posses the possessions of the others and hence stealing suddenly becomes a relative good for some one who worships himself NO?

I mean if there is no punishment or next life then there is only your self in this whole world. If your self is the center you dont physically feel the pain of others so what would motivate you to follow universal morality if it contradicted your self desires?

With moral relativism which misguided system would you be following since anyone's good might be another persons bad?

conclusion

If your an agnostic you don't believe in a next life hence the actions done in this life have no consequences hence there is no motivation to be universally moral so this would lead to relative morality which doesn't apply to everyone so you can not make any judgment.

If you make up your own relative moral system then what you might see as good might be seen as evil by another agnostic or religious party and hence conflict.

Edited by alimohamad40
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