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In the Name of God بسم الله
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slave.ofAllah

First Mut'ah Contract Insha'Allah

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If there is no god then there is no eventual Equilibrium of justice right?

I believe its called the law and my conscience.

example of that is a tyrant that kills millions unjustly , he doesn't die a million times in this world does he? this leads to the belief that in this life complete justice is not achieved.

Of course, this is an unjust world. Look around, people die every day in horrible wars, racism and intolerance still exists in some parts of the world, as does slavery, the list goes on. The world isn't just.

so if we don't believe in a next life where Equilibrium would be established and where our actions will have their equivalent consequences then what is the motive of having any moral system? what does Good and Bad mean anymore?

Even if you don't believe in those things, it still is possible to have a moral system. What is the motive? Because i believe humanity is inherently good and wants to be good. That is our motive for having a moral system. Because we want to be good. If you believe humanity is inherently evil, well thats your choice.

Everyone has fairly similar conception of Good and Bad on the large scale.

definitely good and bad will become relative and most likely the selfish factor will play the prominent role in determining the codes of this unguided moral system.

I disagree with this conclusion. I don't think good and bad are relative. Most people have a fairly similar conception of what is good and what is bad, also remembering people are inherently good. That is your assumption, that it will suddenly turn to selfishness but i disagree. Human beings have the potential to be very altruistic.

Every human loves himself, this means they love to posses the possessions of the others and hence stealing suddenly becomes a relative good for some one?

I do not love to posses the possessions of others. I am not an animal (in the moral/consciousness sense), i am capable of thinking and altruism. I am capable of great good and great evil and yet i choose the good. Most people are altruistic, unless you think everyone is inherently evil or out for themselves, i do not believe this. I think even thieves themselves know that stealing isn't relatively good (unless the obvious exceptions like stealing food to live).

I mean if there is no punishment or next life then what motivates you to follow universal morality if it contradicts your self desires?

I'm an athiest and yet i'm a moral person. The universe hasn't exploded yet so this is definitely possible. What motivates me? Well im not a selfish b*astard. I actually care about the other human beings around me and not only about my own desires like an animal. I think it is even more virtious to have morals not based on want of reward in the next life or fear of punishment but rather based on just wanting to be a good person.

With moral relativism which misguided system would you be following since anyone's good might be another persons bad?

I was arguing against moral relativism and this is similar to the point i was trying to make.

So, your premise makes sense but it does not follow through all the way to the conclusion of the argument.

I responded to you out of respect of course but if you want to discuss this further can we please do it elsewhere, i only really wanted to talk about mut'ah in this particular thread.

Thanks for your words.

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kingpomba: What makes you think Mut'a is the same as prostitution? For one thing, a child born of Mut'a has the same rights in Islam as one born during permanent marriage e.g. in matters of inheritance, his/her being the responsibility of the father, even having the right to his/her father's surname. This is regardless of whether the Mut'a has ended or not.

You simply can't compare the two.

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Salaam

I responded to you out of respect of course but if you want to discuss this further can we please do it elsewhere, i only really wanted to talk about mut'ah in this particular thread.

Thanks for your words.

this Mut3a example is a clear example of relative moralism. Coming from a system which allows sexual encounter without a marital contract or a timing factor it is a bit strange that you condemn muta.

I grasped that your main issue was with the temporary nature of it? i would guess that you would share the idea of Christianity in prohibiting divorce right?

I mean if your problem is with the fact that its temporary then divorce also makes the relationships temporary and puts a timing to the marriages NO?

I bet your liberal side is now shouting and saying no please don't associate me with the catholic church I allow divorce for practical reasons. NO?

If the two beneficiaries (contarcting parties) are both consenting and happy with the temporary arrangement then where does your worry stem from? that they are consenting to opress eachtoher ?

If your issue is against fornication then fornication is a purely religious definition which refers to a sexual relationship which is not sanctioned by religion. Muta is not that either and its a marriage contract sanctioned by the Islamic religion.

that its similar to prostitution? the same argument could be made about permanent marriage where the dowry could be looked at as the fee and one can argue that at least in mut3a its just a limited time but with the permanent its forever olol

the problem with prostitution is the lack of marriage contract and the lack of observing the waiting period.

Islam never encourages people to jump around marriage partners and infact those types of people are deemed wasters and wasters are described in the quraan as the brothers of the devil. This fact is not relevant to the legitimacy of temporary marriage contracts as they have diverse applications and i will give you some examples which you can study.

1) Engagement arrangement so that if the two end up touching each other or associating closely to get to know each other they do not fall in the prohibited

2) Prohibition where you marry the daughter of some one without any sexual contact and for a very small period of time just in order to prohibit the mother on yourself, this way the mother does not have to observe hijab from you and she becomes like your own mother by the laws of incest. this scenario is useful for some one who always goes to the house of the prohibited woman and could make life more convenient.

3) travel companion without having to observe hijab (only if your forced to this situation)

4) frustrated man who is about to commit sins can contract mut3a with prostitutes to avoid fornication

5) people who are forced to have a temporary relation due to life circumstances

plus many other applications

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Hows this... Your modernist take on Islam could quite possibly take you out the fold of Islam, especially when viewed in light of Quran (4:24) and hadith (too numerous to mention here, do a search of the multiple other Mutah threads).

As for your belitting of the Zawaj of Mutah here is something for you to ponder on. You hold disdain for the words which must be spoken which make an act which would otherwise be zina into a halal one. Remember the act of sexual relations aren't haram in and of themselves. Now consider the similitude of a lamb chop. The lamb is slaughtered ear to ear but the Butcher doesn't say 'Bismillah'. The meat becomes haram and has an effect on the spiritual well being of the human being. Then after that another butcher slaughters a lamb from ear to ear and simply says 'Bismillah'. That lamb chop is now halal, all over the recitation of 1 single word. One word. The difference between heaven and hell. The same applies here, please don't impress on us your deviant understanding, undoubtedly influenced by Western Modernism.

+100000000000000000

They keep throwing around the pet argument that Mutah is so easily abused, thus almost like prostitution. Why can't they say the same about permanent marriage? I've seen people abuse it many times over. So let's label permanent marriage as prostitution too.

Also, note that the person you replied to is an agnostic, and has no say on this forum when it comes to intra-religious affairs or Shia Islam. He's just using big words and verbose statements to confuse the young and naive Shias into his "philosophy". I'm actually gonna talk to some of the mods/admins about non-Shias giving their oh-so-bright "advice" on a delicate intra-religious issue. We need more monitoring of these topics.

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Dear alimohamad40 and Something given, i am actually rather tired right now but i felt an urgency to reply to the below quote. I hope you understand this matter, you have my word i will respond to you though(If i am still around on these forums, even if i am not, i still will endeavor to respond).

I meant to hit the edit button on one of my previous posts but it is 5am here and i am very tired....i accidentally hit the delete button to my dismay. So, apologies, no bad faith intended. It has been quoted in its totality by a number of people here and as a show of good faith i will quote it in this post to show i did not to intend to destroy it.

Now on to other matters.

They keep throwing around the pet argument that Mutah is so easily abused, thus almost like prostitution. Why can't they say the same about permanent marriage? I've seen people abuse it many times over. So let's label permanent marriage as prostitution too.

I already addressed this. Please see the post below or here "The thing here is its temporary. There doesn't have to be any commitment, love or mutual respect for each other like in a proper marriage. It is a very important distinction to make. " There is feeling in a (permanent) marriage, there is strong emotion, there is love, there is commitment, there almost always is, of course there are exceptions but this is what marriages should be like. In mutah none of these things are needed. It can be just sex disconnected from emotion, disconnected from love. Thats why the same can't be said. In a permanent marriage, you have commitment to that person, there is love, there is emotion, it isn't just about fulfilling your desires on a whim.

Also, note that the person you replied to is an agnostic, and has no say on this forum when it comes to intra-religious affairs or Shia Islam. He's just using big words and verbose statements to confuse the young and naive Shias into his "philosophy". I'm actually gonna talk to some of the mods/admins about non-Shias giving their oh-so-bright "advice" on a delicate intra-religious issue. We need more monitoring of these topics.

Well, i'd like to point out first of all im a human being, so im entitled to have my opinion. I go through the same struggles in life like you do, i probably even share similar ethics to you. I'm not out to hate, i really didn't want to say this because im not looking for praise or anything and it is a very personal thing to me but just to show you i don't hate on muslims like you are trying to show, i am even fasting for a large proportion of this ramadan out of solidarity to my muslim friends. We are all human beings, brothers and sisters, i do not wish to walk alone and i wish to share their struggles. I can't walk a mile in their shoes but i can walk 10 miles beside them. So, don't portray me as some hateful beast when i am a human being.

Intra-religious means between religions as well, i am of a different faith, why can't i offer my opinion?

If you think islam is the best faith and there is indeed no problems with it, why are you worried anything i say will have any affect at all? Surely such advice from me would be in vain then. So, i don't think you have anything to worry about or feel threatened about unless you're insecure in your belief in Islam. I'm just merely offering my humble opinion.

You can try to get the mods to choke my freedom to speak my mind or censor me if you so wish, i will not get angry and i won't hate you. If you are trying to shield people from any ideas except the one you hold, banning me will be a drop in the ocean. If you want people to only be exposed to one set of ideas and never hear any other opinions censoring me will only be a drop in the ocean. Most people live in a multicultural society full of other faiths and people with very different ideas, if you wish to block me out or feel threatened by other ideas, then i am sorry you feel that way. You will not get far in the modern world with that kind of thinking though. The only legitimate right you have of censorship over me is the right not to listen, please, feel free to exercise that right at will. Just because i am a minority in the place this forum is, doesn't mean you suddenly have rights over me or the prerogative to oppress certain viewpoints, everyones opinion is as equally as valued, you may not hold this sentiment but i do.

I refuse to respond to your threats and ill feelings with threats and ill feelings of my own, which i do not harbor. I'll just turn the other cheek, walk away and treat you with kindness. Do it again and i will respond in the same way. Once again, exactly the same response. You are my brother and i feel all human beings share similar struggles and experiences in life, so, i will not attempt to constrain you or threaten you.

How can people have no compulsion in religion if you censor all other viewpoints and keep them in the dark and uneducated? If you think my opinion is worth less than yours or i am somehow less of a human being or that i have less of a right to speak my mind than you do, then please, express your views and tell me. I won't treat you with anger or try get someone to censor you, i'll just take it and move along.

Otherwise, please allow me the same freedom you allow yourself :).

Peace,

-kingpomba

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Original post (Apologies about the deletion, i believe it was situated somewhere between the current post #29 and post #30):

Sleep with random people just for sexual pleasure without a serious relationship and you're a very bad person and a sinner. Definitely haram.

Do mut'ah...its suddenly ok to sleep around and adulterate, in exactly the same way?

Am i the only one who notices the contradiction here....

Whats stopping people from having 100's of mutah contracts, one after the other, becoming as bad as the western society and the morals and values of certain segments of western society they look down upon.

If it was definitely haram of course people wouldn't do it. If theres good odds that isn't haram (50/50 chance), there are plenty of people who will do it just because they can, because they are allowed to sleep around within islamic framework they will. They won't control their desires, they'll just do this. It's a weakining of faith and not to mention personal morals and ethics if you ask me. It seems some people are just finding ways to do ethically bad things under the guise of islam and not feel bad about it. Just because its allowed, doesn't mean you should do it. Even if it has nothing to do with islam, what about your own personal ethics and morals...are you so willing to sacrafice that for a little worldy pleasure? Sell yourself out for a night with this "Christian".

What about protecting your dignity for a proper marriage? A real one. Not a one night stand, a contract for sex.

Its worse than prostitution, the only fee you pay is in honour in this case.

The thing here is its temporary. There doesn't have to be any commitment, love or mutual respect for each other like in a proper marriage. It is a very important distinction to make.

Think about the morality of it, really please do.

This is one thing that has always distinctly stuck out for me in shi'a islam. It sticks out like a sore thumb, its a big ink blot on the religion of shi'a islam. It just seems so out of place with the rest of the system. I thought religion, especially one as comprehensive as islam, would be free from so many of the plagues that pop up in western society because of lack of morals and yet i found one of those problems right here, it shocked me the first time i heard about the concept.

Don't be weak and cave into your desires, be strong and keep your morals strong.

You can live without doing this, especially during such an auspicious month such as Ramadan.

I'm not telling you what to do or whats right or wrong, its just my opinion. Read whatever scholars you want, take anyones opinion you want, I'm just offering mine. I'm not making a fatwa or anything, someone once accused me of this. I doubt anyone will mistake me as a sheik tongue.gif. I'm just offering my expressing my own opinion and my advice. This seems like an amoral act to me personally but do what you want.

It might be worth to take a step back and look at some of your thoughts though. Don't rush into it.

Edited by kingpomba

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Dear alimohamad40 and Something given, i am actually rather tired right now but i felt an urgency to reply to the below quote. I hope you understand this matter, you have my word i will respond to you though(If i am still around on these forums, even if i am not, i still will endeavor to respond).

That's okay, take your time. :)

There is feeling in a (permanent) marriage, there is strong emotion, there is love, there is commitment, there almost always is, of course there are exceptions but this is what marriages should be like. In mutah none of these things are needed. It can be just sex disconnected from emotion, disconnected from love. Thats why the same can't be said. In a permanent marriage, you have commitment to that person, there is love, there is emotion, it isn't just about fulfilling your desires on a whim.

There doesn't have to be any 'love' in permanent marriages, either. You see, in Islam, any sort of intimacy between a man and a woman before they are married is not allowed. And you would agree, of course, that a certain degree of intimacy is required between two people if they are to come to love each other. So, ideally, in an Islamic marriage, love is to come after the fact. There is a saying by one of the Imams (the sixth, I think?) that basically says that we are love the one we marry, and not the other way around.

And also, I just want reiterate what someone has already said, that it isn't just about fulfilling your desires on a whim (although even if that was your intention, I hardly think it would be a 'whim' because there are a lot of things to take into consideration before you engage in a Mut'a -- just as in a permanent marriage ;) ), it could be about a lot of other things, such as getting to know someone intimately (emotionally or even otherwise, depending on what conditions are placed) in an Islamically legal way before a permanent marriage takes place.

This is why I said you simply can't compare Mut'a and prostitution ... it's not just a matter of finding a girl and that's it. There are laws put into place e.g. in some cases the woman's legal guardian may have to give permission for the Mut'a to take place, and etc.

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@ Il-Irshad: Can you provide the reference please. I can't seemed to find it (please and Thank You)

@ KingPomba: Yes you do have a right to an opinion. However, Most non-muslims do not have enough knowledge regarding Muta and Nikah and the similarities and differences between them, they have not read the details of Islam law and how it comes about (Your post indicates that you don't have enough grasp on the subject at hand). This is the point that Legio is conveying

However, if you are claiming that an opinion of a person who has no knowledge of the a subject is worth the same as the opinion of a person that has knowledge on the subject is a bit absurd (kinda like saying a opinion of a person,who is not an engineer, on how one should build a bridge should be taken equally seriously as the opinion of a civil engineer who specializes in bridges). Also, to make it clear Shi'ites are not allowed to interpret Islamic law on based on their opinions, as the interpretations given to Shi'ites are coming from their Prophet (A.S) and 12 Imams (A.S)which have greater knowledge than the followers (This holds true for all Sects of Shia Islam not just the Twelvers). Also, There is a difference between Islamic Beliefs and Islamic laws.

(Also the term Temporary is incorrect translation, as Muta is not something that is gives a user access to one night stand. There are rules and regulations such as Iddat period, and guardian permission etc etc. The difference between Nikah and Mutah are the laws of inheritance of the wife when her husband dies). Not abiding by the rules and regulations is not Mutah or Nikah

I hope the clarification I provided helps

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(salam)

i always wondered what this term, obligatory precaution, meant cuz it seemed like an oxymoron to me so heres syed sistanis fatwa for it:

If an A'lam Mujtahid gives a fatwa on some matter, his follower cannot act in that matter on the fatwa of another Mujtahid. But if he does not give a fatwa, and expresses a precaution (Ihtiyat) that a man should act in such and such a manner, for example if he says that as a precautionary measure, in the first and second Rak'at of the namaz he should read a complete Surah after the Surah of "Hamd", the follower may either act on this precaution, which is called obligatory precaution (Ihtiyat Wajib), or he may act on the fatwa of another Mujtahid who it is permissible to follow.

Hence, if he (the second Mujtahid) rules that only "Surah Hamd" is enough, he (the person offering prayers) may drop the second Surah. The position will be the same if the A'a lam Mujtahid expresses terms like Ta'mmul or Ishkal

So no matter which mujtahid you follow, all or most have called obligatory precaution on asking the father's permission so you could follow Ayatollah Fadhlallah's fatwa and not ask permission although its always better to go through with the parents. I mean say later on in the relationship you guys get serious and think of getting permanently married, you would have to tell your father you've been hiding this relationship from him or you would have to lie and say you never had a relationship. Either way you're in trouble, with the father in the former and with All-h in the latter. Also, I wouldn't want my daughter doing mut'ah behind my back so I would respect her father's right and position on wanting to know what goes on in his daughters' life.

Plus girls love it when you tell them how you respect their fathers rights ;)

Salams,

He cannot do taqleed to Sayyid Fadlallah(r.a) unless he was following him(mukalled) while he was still living. This is the rule of all marjaa' that I know of. Sayyid Fadlallah(r.a) pass away two years ago. Sayyid Sistani(h.a.) and Sayyid Ali Khameni(h.a) both say that getting the father's permission is wajib if she is muslima. If she is Christian I think the rule still applies but I am not sure. I would check out najaf.org (Sistani) or leader.ir (Khameni) and look at Q&A or under 'Marriage' section. I'm pretty sure someone has asked this question before. If not, you can email their office.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Salam,

Alhamdulillah, thanks for the thread everyone, yep after reading this, my understanding on mut'ah is much deeper, and yep it is mustahab, to OP, just proceed with ur intention and may Allah bless you always :)

to KingPomba : i'm very much impressed that someone like you who don't believe in religion can have such understanding such high respect about morality, about being good etc,

i'm just impressed because now i can see more clearly how Allah has created human being and regards him as the most perfect creation, and you are such example! being deprived of faith, yet you have such understanding, and care , -and i can see this is none other but the result of Allah's Wisdom Who has endowed human being (you and I) with intellect, the power of reasoning, the desire of being good and desire to attain perfection in all aspect of life esp. morality.

wow, what a great Creator Allah is !

but , brother, despite of having this intellect, reasoning, desire to be good etc, we should admit that we have weakness in many aspects. And this weakness surely will influence our decision-making and the way of thinking. Now, the question is, do we realize that we have weakness ? Can we identify that weakness?

I can see that me as human being who has been endowed with soul, with intellect and reasoning. Yet, i can't guarantee that my understanding, my perception is perfect. How could i make such claim when the fact is my knowledge of the unseen is limited, my comprehensive understanding of the true reality is limited, etc etc

And that's why we need religion that is well-designed by The All-Wise, All-Knowing Creator Who has this complete knowledge of everything. Yep. Hey, I was an atheist too, but, once i realize, and learn the fact about my limited capacity, then finally i turn to religion, and Islam is the perfect religion. What is the proof? Mut'ah is one them :D

Mut'ah reflects the mercy, the wisdom, the kindness of The Almighty, indeed it's a blessing :)

siti

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Salams, He cannot do taqleed to Sayyid Fadlallah(r.a) unless he was following him(mukalled) while he was still living. This is the rule of all marjaa' that I know of. Sayyid Fadlallah(r.a) pass away two years ago. Sayyid Sistani(h.a.) and Sayyid Ali Khameni(h.a) both say that getting the father's permission is wajib if she is muslima. If she is Christian I think the rule still applies but I am not sure. I would check out najaf.org (Sistani) or leader.ir (Khameni) and look at Q&A or under 'Marriage' section. I'm pretty sure someone has asked this question before. If not, you can email their office.

salaam

* marja3 fadhallah allows you to follow the dead

* marja3 khamenine has Tab3eeth

* marja3 fadhallah also has Tab3eeth

Tab3eeth means you follow another scholar in issues that you legitimately thing the marja3 is wrong about it

as far as i remember in the case of "lozoomy or compulsry Ehtyat" even the scholars who do not allow tab3eeth also allow you to follow the next alam (as they say) when it comes to verdicts that they have given Ehtyat

king pompa i can not write a long thing but in general my main point was that if there is no constitution then good and bad will be relative...

yes the humans are inherently good

yes the primitive conception of good and evil is universal in the human innate

But the devil is in the details as they say

i can give you many examples of things and ask you are they moral or no and confuse you and make you doubt your moral code.

for example ill give you a scenario and you try to tell me with your moral system if its good or bad :

ill give you two different scenarios and tell me your openion.

1) lets say your 40 years old, you married a woman who is 40 years old but you had not intimacy with her and you divorced after a while because the relationship didn't work between you.

that woman has a daughter from some one else who is 25 years old and you seem to be more suitable to her so you went ahead and married the daughter and had kids with her. is your marriage to the daughter moral?

2) scenario two is identical to the one above but the only difference is that you consummated your marriage with the 40 years old then later you divorced and later you married her daughter from another person

is this moral in this case?

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(salam)

What a blessing, I 'think' I may have arranged my first mut'ah contract, but since I don't know exactly the specifics please someone guide me in these circumstances. The girl's father is muslim, however she declares herself to be Christian(I think her parents are separated and she lives with her mother who is Christian, far away from her father). She is willing to do the contract.

Do we have to make the contract if we are just going to sit alone in a private place, park etc. or do you only do the Mut'ah when you are planning to definitely 'touch' the other person?

Also, Im pretty sure she has NEVER been married before but....she declares herself to be Christian, do I still have to get father's permission-provided she also doesn't live with him?

Do I need to fulfill any other obligations etc?

Skip shia chat. Look up your marja. See what they require. Do what you gotta do. Keep your respect and business between yourself and her, the contract between all parties required. Allah knows best.

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