From Saul Of Tarsus To Paul The Apostle

[placid]

From Saul of Tarsus to Paul the Apostle

Why is he rejected?

In various topics there are references made to Paul who became the Apostle to the Gentiles, and usually the statements have negative connotations.

Saul was a Jew with Roman citizenship and comes on the scene as a champion of Pharisaic opposition to the Christians

Since his Letters to Churches are prominent in the NT, and used often for teaching, --- I thought it would be good to discuss his conversion from “the Persecutor” to “the Persecuted,” --- and examine the writings of Paul, in relationship to the other Apostles.

Rather than using opinions given by others, it would be desirable if you give your opinion, --- with the chapter and verse of the subject of discussion.

Paul was the most travelled Apostle in establishing Churches in Asia Minor, then later returned to jerusalem, where he was arrested by the Jews and was sent to Rome to appear before caesar.

[placid]

Before we consider Paul's Ministry, or Letters, we need to examine him.

We will start with Paul’s conversion, and the testimony written by Luke.

Saul was from Tarsus in Cilicia, and he was educated as a Pharisee under Gamaliel. He was no doubt in Jerusalem, or that area, during the time of Jesus, because he was already a prominent person among the religious leaders when he is first introduced in the Acts of the Apostles. --- And the following happened within the year after Jesus had been crucified, had been raised again, and had ascended to heaven

It says in Acts 6, --- when the believers were multiplying at a rapid rate, they appointed 7 Deacons to help the Apostles with the distribution of food, etc.

One of the Deacons was Stephan.

--- When the religious leaders challenged Stephan’s faith, he gave a long account of the history of the Jews and the prophecies concerning Jesus, and they became so irate that they stoned Stephen.

And it says in 7:

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;

58. and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

60. Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

--- Paul would have known all about Jesus’ teaching and His death and resurrection, --- and now, he was guarding the coats of those who stoned Stephen.

And 8:1 says “Now Saul was consenting to his death.”

--- So, now, being confronted with one who was willing to die for his belief, --- and, not only that, --- but to ask God ‘not to charge them with this sin.’

Even as Jesus said from the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing.”

How did this affect him? --- Two years later, in Acts 9, it says this:

1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest

2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.

4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him , “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Notice: --- Paul was blind for three days, so in those three days of blindness, he would have time to assess his situation and realize his professional ambitions were gone, his future would be bleak, --- and he was ‘fasting,’ --- also, God said to Ananias, “He is praying.”

--- So here is Saul of Tarsus, reduced and humbled, --- but he was ‘fasting and praying,” --- perhaps as Pharisees are taught to do.

His prayers are now perhaps for himself, rather than for his purpose of immobilizing the Christians.

--- This was his time of conversion.

Notice one other thing, --- in v 5, Paul said, “Who are You, Lord?”

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.” --- What a slap in the face to realize that in opposing Christians, he was opposing Jesus, whom God had sent, --- and therefore, he was opposing God.

To continue:

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.

12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.

14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.

16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

--- "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine ---."

Placid

Edited July 11, 2011 by placid

[placid]

To continue:

Jesus said that Paul was ‘a chosen vessel,’ and that he would ‘bear His name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.’

--- After his conversion experience Paul ‘spent some days with the disciples at Damascus,’ --- then was ready to witness, and he started preaching in the synagogues in Damascus.

--- To continue in Acts 9:

21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?”

22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

--- The reaction of the Jews was rather sudden because, here was the ‘champion persecutor of Christians’ now being one of them, and proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the promised Christ, or Jewish Messiah.

23 Now after many days were past, the Jews plotted to kill him.

24 But their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates day and night, to kill him.

25 Then the disciples took him by night and let him down through the wall in a large basket.

26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.

27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

28 So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out.

29 And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him.

30 When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.

--- This was a stormy beginning for Paul as a witness for the Lord, and the other Christian brethren realized the danger and sent him to his home town of Tarsus.

It happened some years after that Paul was giving his testimony, and he included something else that Jesus had revealed to him later.

Here it is in Acts 22:

6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me.

7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’

8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’

9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’

11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there,

13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him.

14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.

15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance

18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.

19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You.

20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’

21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”

--- So this was Paul's call to be a missionary to the Gentiles.

Placid

[Ejaz Ahmed]

Many say Paul had different doctrines than Jesus.

But it should be obvious that Jesus preached to the multitudes on the hills

while Paul's letters were basically only to Christians in the churches.

2 completely different audiences requiring different teaching.

Other than that their doctrines were identical.

[placid]

Many say Paul had different doctrines than Jesus.

But it should be obvious that Jesus preached to the multitudes on the hills

while Paul's letters were basically only to Christians in the churches.

2 completely different audiences requiring different teaching.

Other than that their doctrines were identical.

Hi Ejaz,

Yes, the messages of Paul and Jesus were to different audiences, as you say, but there was different emphasis because of the audiences

.

Jesus came with the renewed message to the Jews, “Love God, and Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” --- This was given to the Jews in the OT Law, but the heirarchy of the Jews, had been ignoring it.

I said, Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, and He CALLED God His HEAVENLY FATHER, --- which identified a Family relationship,’ --- Then when He said, “Love God,” your HEAVENLY FATHER, "and love your neighbor, as you love yourself,” --- like a brother, or a member of your family, --- this identifies the Family of God.

And in Matthew 7:12, Jesus put the 'family responsibility' on each believer when He said:

“Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

With this renewed Law of Love, Jesus fulfilled the Law, so that the Jewish believers were fulfilling the Law in accepting Jesus as their Savior/ Messiah, as it says in John 1:12:

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

--- Paul preached this same message of love to the Gentiles who were not Jews, so were never required to observe the Jewish law, --- but they fulfilled the law of the Ten Commandments by living according to the Law of Love.

--- Yes, the message was the same, as you say.

Edited July 17, 2011 by placid

[placid]

To continue with Saul of Tarsus who became Paul the Apostle:

So, after Paul was rejected by the Jews in Jerusalem, and in danger of death, the Apostles and Elders sent him to his home town of Tarsus. There is no particular info on Paul’s activities during this time (perhaps a few years in length), before the next phase of his ministry.

The main Christian center outside of Jerusalem had begun in Antioch in Syria, and Barnabas, we meet again, --- who had spoken on Paul’s behalf when he had come to Jerusalem to join with the Apostles, Acts 9:

26 And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple.

27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

During this time also, the Gospel was being preached to the Gentiles in Antioch, and they were responding, as these verses explain in Acts 11:

19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.

20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.

21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.

22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.

24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul.

26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Placid

[placid]

--- In following the ministry of Saul of Tarsus, it is interesting to note that he was no longer following a religious career with the Pharisees,

He had tried to join with the disciples at Jerusalem, but they were afraid that he was trying to associate with them to do them harm. --- But Barnabas vouched for him and they accepted him. However, the Jews wanted to kill him, perhaps as a traitor, because he had been converted and was now as zealous for the preaching of the Gospel, as he had been against it. --- So the disciples sent him to his home town of Tarsus, for both his and their safety.

While he was there he may have continued preaching, but he also perhaps needed a job or profession to support himself, and it may have been at that time that he took up tent making, because later it says in Acts 18:

1 After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth.

2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them.

3 So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers.

Coming back to Antioch we find that Saul was listed as the last of the list of teachers in that growing Church, and Barnabas was listed first, in Acts 13:

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

3 Then, having fasted and prayed and laid hands on them, they sent them away.

Notice: --- The dedicated teachers were fasting, which is often done accompanied by prayer, in seeking God’s guidance.

Notice: --- The Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” --- So, notice the ‘calling’ of Barnabas and Saul. --- They were seeking God’s guidance, --- the Holy Spirit spoke, --- they continued fasting and praying, then they laid their hands on Barnabas and Saul, --- which indicates the confirmation and blessing of the Church.

Notice: --- They were ‘called’ to the work the Holy Spirit had for them, --- so, Christians, who are called by the Holy Spirit to do God’s work are guided in every part of it as long as they are obedient. --- If at any time they depart from God’s guidance, they have to acknowledge their error, repent, ask forgiveness, and go back to the point where they left His guidance, --- and continue from there.

Now to follow them on the first Missionary journey in Acts 13:

4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.

6 Now when they had gone through the island[a] to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,

7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.

8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.

9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him

10 and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?

11 And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”

And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

Notice: --- The devil’s opposition to their preaching was a sorcerer who wouldn’t want to lose his position with the Proconsul, so tried to turn him away from their faith.

--- But the Holy Spirit spoke through Paul and caused temporary blindness to fall on the sorcerer, --- perhaps like the temporary blindness that came on Paul at his conversion.

But the Proconsul say and believed, as perhaps did many others.

--- This launched the preaching and miracle working ministry of Paul and Barnabas.

Placid

[Just_A_Submitter]

Wasnt he the guy who killed Jesus/Isa's apostles, and he was also famous among fanatic jewish that time as Torturer of Jesus' followers ? And now he's like a Prophet to Christians ? I remember bible verses about "fake prophet" as a person who claim himself a "sheep" while he's a wolf, and has "bad roots".

Edited July 29, 2011 by Just_A_Submitter

[HyderabadiPakistani]

Why is he rejected?

He preached trinity to pagan romans. Jews rejected him because he wasn't a monotheist.

/thread

[placid]

Wasnt he the guy who killed Jesus/Isa's apostles, and he was also famous among fanatic jewish that time as Torturer of Jesus' followers ? And now he's like a Prophet to Christians ? I remember bible verses about "fake prophet" as a person who claim himself a "sheep" while he's a wolf, and has "bad roots".

Hi Just A Submitter,

Welcome,

If you read the first two Posts you will see that the reason I started this topic is because there are many things said about Paul that are not true, and not in Scripture, so it is necessary to read Post 2 of his conversion, --- and then, what he became after he surrendered his kife in service to the Lord.

Saul was originally from Tarsus, but received religious training in Jerusalem. He was a very enthusiastic Pharisee and after his training was working his way up in prominence among the Pharisees.

He was no doubt in, or around, Jerusalem at the time, and after, the crucifixion. --- The hope of the Pharisees was that when Jesus was put to death that would end this new movement.

After the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, when the Apostles were empowered by God's Holy Spirit, "They went everywhere preaching." --- So Saul was anxious to stop them.

His first appearance is when they illegally stoned Stephen in Acts 7:58 where it says, "And they laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul."

--- I said they 'illegaly' stoned Stephan, because the Jews had no authority to put anyone to death, but had to bring them to the Roman court and accuse them of a crime so that the Roman court would condemn them. --- This is why Saul was going to Damascus with letters of authority to arrest Christians and bring them bound to Jerusalem where they might be put in prison, as they had no authority to kill them.

Then in Acts 9 his conversion took place. --- While there aren't many conversions as spectacular as that of Saul, there are some.

If you compare his experience of being knocked off his horse and being blinded for three days, to get his attention --- to the experience of Muhammad who saw the vision of the angel Gabriel, who spoke to him and told him what he must do, --- then you will see that God does call certain men by a spectacular conversion experience.

You believe that Muhhammad was converted from what was, in that day, called an 'agnostic,' --- to a believer who received special revelations from God for the rest of his life, through that same angel Gabriel?

--- Then the conversion of Saul was just as genuine.

--- Then Saul who was the persecuter of others, --- became persecuted by his own people for becoming a Christian.

Placid

Edited July 30, 2011 by placid

[placid]

Why is he rejected?

He preached trinity to pagan romans. Jews rejected him because he wasn't a monotheist.

/thread

Hi Hyderabadi,

Welcome, as well.

Paul was called, along with Barnabas, to be missionaries to the Gentiles. From about 40 AD to 59 Paul was working among the Gentiles in Asia Minor and into Athens, Greece. --- First establishing Churches, then, as he travelled, writing letters back to them, --- You can see by the names of the letters who they were addressed to.

Paul had not been to Rome during these travels but wrote his letter to the Romans because there were a lot of Christians in Rome. --- He wrote the letter when he was in Greece in 57, which was about two years before he went to Jerusalem, where he was arrested by the opposing Jews. --- and as a matter of course he was sent as a prisoner to Rome.

--- Paul and Luke joined Peter and Mark who had been in Rome for some years, but Paul basically taught Christians who were already there.

You could read the Book of Romans.to see if you can find verses that you believe teach trinity. --- The faulty 'trinity doctrine' came into being in AD 325, at a meeting of the Church council at that time, so I don't think you will find reference to it in Paul's teaching. --- But if you do find some verses, --- just list them so we can see them. (I am always interested in learning.)

Those who believe in a trinity believe that there is only One God, as we all do, and as Paul did. --- (It is the interpretation that is misunderstood.)

[Just_A_Submitter]

Rasulullah wasnt an agnostic..., Rasulullah believed in God (a Theist/Deist/believer of God) even before he received messages from Allah :D And Rasulullah didnt have bad roots, he had been known as a good, honest, and honorable tradesman even before he became a Prophet.

While Saul of Tarsus was indeed a torturer and murderer of Jesus's followers and apostles wasnt he.

----

Trinity's a made up concept.. 3 will always be 3, there's no way 3 will be the same as 1 unless 3's substract by 2.

If i make 1 cake, and split that cake into 3 pieces of cakes, it will be no longer just 1 cake, but it will become 3 pieces of cakes.

And ive read the bible, Jesus never commanded people to worship him, on the otherhand Jesus clearly commanded his people to worship God only and no other but God (Laa Ilaaha ilallaah).

If a person follow Saul of Tarsus, then he'll worship Jesus.

While if a person follow Jesus, then he'll worship only Allah.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Just_A_Submitter

[placid]

Hi Just,

Quote:Rasulullah wasnt an agnostic..., Rasulullah believed in God (a Theist/Deist/believer of God) even before he received messages from Allah And Rasulullah didnt have bad roots, he had been known as a good, honest, and honorable tradesman even before he became a Prophet.

Response: --- I said: Muhammad was converted from what was, in that day, called an 'agnostic,' ---

I took these few words from the Intro to Mr Pickthall’s translation of the Quran where he was describing those who rejected the idol worship and ---

Quote: "Had longed for the religion of Abraham and tried to find out what had been its teaching. Such seekers of the truth were known as 'Hunafa' --- a word originally meaning 'those who turn away’ (from the existing idol-worship), but coming in the end to have the sense of ‘upright’ or ‘by nature upright’ because such persons held the way of truth to be right conduct. The Hunafa did not form a community. They were the ‘Agnostics’ of their day, each seeking truth by the light of his own consciousness. Muhammad, son of Abdullah became one of these. --- End of quote.

Muhammad came from “good roots” and had a good family reputation. As well as that Mr Pickthall said that when he married the widow Khadijah ---

Quote “This marriage gave him rank among the notables of Mecca, while his conduct earned for him the surname ‘Al-Amin’ the ‘trustworthy.’ --- End of quote.

Quote: While Saul of Tarsus was indeed a torturer and murderer of Jesus's followers and apostles wasnt he.

Response: --- I had shown the verses that say that Paul was the leading persecutor of the Christians, but you will have to list the verses that say he murdered or tortured anyone. He was a misguided Zealot for Judaism who rejected the truth of Jesus being the Messiah of the Jews. --- And, if you disagree with something the natural instinct is to try to destroy it, but the Jews were under Roman rule so did not have the authority to put anyone to death. There is no record that Paul killed or tortured anyone. He was given authority to arrest people and bring them back to Jerusalem to be put in prison for their faith.

--- But if you will notice, I was not making the comparison of Saul and Muhammad, but making the comparison of their remarkable experiences of conversion, when God called them each by a vision into His service.

Quote: Trinity's a made up concept.. 3 will always be 3, there's no way 3 will be the same as 1 unless 3's substract by 2.

If i make 1 cake, and split that cake into 3 pieces of cakes, it will be no longer just 1 cake, but it will become 3 pieces of cakes.

Response: --- Yes, trinity is a made up concept. The word is a condensing of ‘tri-unity,’ --- There are other words that have been condensed similarly, --- like ‘university’ from ‘unity in diversity.’

The word ‘trinity’ is not in Scripture and is not a teaching of the NT, but came out of a meeting of Church leaders in 325 AD. --- I have said it is a faulty doctrine.

Quote: And ive read the bible, Jesus never commanded people to worship him, on the other hand Jesus clearly commanded his people to worship God only and no other but God (Laa Ilaaha ilallaah).

If a person follow Saul of Tarsus, then he'll worship Jesus.

While if a person follow Jesus, then he'll worship only Allah.

Response: --- To follow Jesus is to worship God, Jesus said, “Come unto Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

Jesus said in John 3, "Even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,"

Jesus was the Savior/Messiah and in prophesying His death on the cross, He said, “And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me,”

Jesus also said, “No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

This is why conversion involves accepting Jesus as Savior and submitting one’s will and way unto God, that He might guide that believer by His Holy Spirit.

This involves God the Father, Jesus the Savior, and the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Comforter.

Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that believes."

--- Can you find some verses where Paul said to worship Jesus only?

Placid

[placid]

To continue with the ministry of Paul and Barnabas.

After their first missionary journey, they returned to Antioch in Syria to report ‘All that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.’ Acts 14:27

Because Paul had studied the OT law and Prophecies, he was able to teach the Gentiles the history of the Jews and to preach that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah whom God sent to fulfill Prophecies like Isaiah 53:

4 Surely He has borne our griefs

And carried our sorrows;

Yet we esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten by God, and afflicted.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,

He was bruised for our iniquities;

The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,

And by His stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;

We have turned, every one, to his own way;

And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The Jews in Jerusalem rejected Jesus as their Messiah and so, wherever Paul and Barnabas went, they would go first to the Jewish Synagogue, to give the message to the Jews first. Some believed, but the ones that disbelieved were quick to oppose them and want to get rid of them.

However, the Gentiles were quick to believe in what they had heard about Jesus, and the healing and miracles that He did, so Paul and Barnabas started house Churches among the Gentiles.

Jesus had been rejected by the Jews in His own home town of Nazareth when He spoke in the Synagogue using another Prophecy of Isaiah.

The Jews knew the Prophecies very well and, “Fulfilled prophecy is the proof of Scripture.”

Isaiah prophesied this over 700 years before Jesus came. --- In Isaiah 61:

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,

Because the LORD has anointed Me

To preach good tidings to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives,

And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.

--- (And it was fulfilled in this way in Luke 4):

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”

--- (But as Jesus began preaching, they began to take offense and a few verses later, it says this):

28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.

30 Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way.

--- It was God’s divine plan to present the New Covenant to the Jewish leadership first, so Jesus taught and preached in the Temple and the Synagogues first, then to the small groups and the multitudes on the hillsides, where He fed the 5000.

So, because Paul had been ‘an objector and persecuter’ --- and was now preaching the very things that he had rejected, --- wherever Paul and Barnabas went, they were opposed by to the hard line Jews.

--- In addition to their opposition to Paul, the new Gospel Message did not require that Gentiles keep the Jewish Law.

Placid

[placid]

I had ended the last Post with these words

“--- In addition to their opposition of Paul, the new Gospel Message did not require that Gentiles keep the Jewish Law.”

About half of the criticism of Paul is concerning the Jewish law, so I want to give one of the Scripture portions that give the guidelines.

Paul and Barnabas were Jews and they would have been circumcised as children and no doubt never ate pork, --- according to the Jewish Law.

I doubt that they ever changed their eating habits when they lived with. and witnessed to Gentiles.

However, they were missionaries to the various Gentile peoples who were never under Jewish Law, so the New Covenant fulfilled the Commandments with the New Law of Love, and submission to God.

They had been teaching in Antioch in Syria for some time when this happened:

Acts 15:

1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.

4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me:

14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘ After this I will return

And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;

I will rebuild its ruins,

And I will set it up;

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,

Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,

Says the LORD who does all these things.]

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works

19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this, letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—

25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

Placid

[placid]

To continue with the results of this Meeting in the Jerusalem Church in Acts 15,

• The instruction that the Apostles and Elders sent to the Gentile Churches in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia, was:
  

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

--- Remember it said in Acts 13:

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

3 Then, having fasted and prayed and laid hands on them, they sent them away.

--- So here in Acts 15, it is acknowledging that the Elders are guided by the Holy Spirit, to give Paul and Barnabas these instructions to be taught to the Gentile Christians.

(I believe that Paul and Barnabas would remain true Jews because of their convictions, but they were ministering to Gentiles who were never required to keep the Jewish dietary laws, unless they accepted Judaism as their faith.)

--- So here is what they were instructed to teach:

To abstain from things offered to idols (completely cut ties to any association with idols).

From blood (I believe it meant any using, or consuming, of blood, because "The life is in the blood").

From things strangled (because birds and animals have to be properly drained of blood before they can be safely eaten).

And from sexual immorality (the curse of many nations).

--- And the closing remark, "If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

It goes without saying that this applies to those who have been, or are being converted, who have accepted the Gospel, and committed their lives to the Lord's service.

These instructions are similar to those in Surah 7:3

Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form);

--- The one difference is 'the flesh of swine.'

This has caused some accusations from Muslims that Gentile Christians were, 'breaking God's commandment, wrong, unclean, impure, pagan, not going to heaven, etc.

However, among Gentiles, swine has always been used for food. in warm climates it should be well cooked to kill the bacteria that can cause triconosis, but so should chicken and beef be well cooked.

However, --- consider this.

Pigs were never used for pets like cats and dogs.

Pigs were never used to ride on like horses.

Pigs were never used to plow with like oxen.

Pigs were never used to give milk like cows and goats.

They were of little value except for meat, their fat for lard, and their hides for leather.

Here is where the difference comes.

God made a general rule that only animals with a cloven hoof and that 'chewed its cud' (regurgitated food from its stomach to chew over again) were the animals for Jews to use for food.

--- Pigs have a cloven hoof but do not chew their cud. --- Other animals that chew their cud eat mainly grass and hay, while pigs eat most anything.

If the danger for the Israelites for health purposes was not to eat 'pork,' it was for their own good, so they raised sheep, goats. and cattle for food.

The restriction of eating pork was never given to Gentiles, --- that is, 'non Jews,' --- so that includes the Arab nations too, does it not?

However, as the Quran makes the above restiction in Surah 5:3, --- then, in obedience, Muslims shouldn't eat pork, should they?

--- But, the restiction is for Muslims, --- and the same as the Jewish restriction was never imposed on Christians, neither should the Muslim's restriction be imposed on Christians, should it?

Placid

[iere]

Interesting.

Many say Paul had different doctrines than Jesus.

But it should be obvious that Jesus preached to the multitudes on the hills

while Paul's letters were basically only to Christians in the churches.

2 completely different audiences requiring different teaching.

Other than that their doctrines were identical

As a Christian, I agree with you overall. Their doctrines were identical. In my understanding, Paul did not teach that Gentiles were not to keep the laws of God. All believers are to keep the laws of God. What Paul clarified is that the law does not save us. Paul preached salvation through Christ, not the doing away with the law.

Romans 3:28-31

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The words of Jesus are as follows:

Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, <strong>Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Edited August 13, 2011 by iere

[placid]

Hi Iere,

Thank you, that is exactly right, We still keep the Law, and as Christians we fulfill it in the Law of Love.

Jesus said, "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself."

I like the verse in Matthew 7, which is called, "The Golden Rule."

12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Yes, as you said, Paul preached salvation through Christ, but to be 'law abiding' in our lives, --- allowing God to guide us within His will, so we 'keep the laws of God," in our obedience to Him.

Various times some have criticized Paul, so I hoped they would express some of these criticisms here so we can examine what the Scripture says.

Paul was quite outspoken at times, but his message was the same as Peter and John, as well as Jesus, but as Ejaz said, 'He was ministering to a different audience.'

[mehdi soldier]

Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?

ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

PAUL'S CONTRADICTION:

WIFE IN PARADISE

Genesis 3:20

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

FLESH IN PARADISE AND EYES TO SEE GOD!

Job 19:26 -27

26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see himwith my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

DRINKING IN THE BIBLICAL PARADISE

Matthew 26:29

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

EATING BREAD IN PARADISE

Luke 14:15

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

JESUS WAS TAKEN UP WITH PHYSICAL BODY

Luke 24:51

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

PAUL'S CONTRADICTION OF A PHYSICAL PARADISE BASED ON IMAGINATION

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:44)

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

JESUS EATING AFTER HIS ALLEGED RESURRECTION (hint:its either Jesus did not die and resurrect or after resurrection and life returns people still have physical bodies.christians should make a choice!)

Luke 24:41-43

New International Version (NIV)

41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

[placid]

Hi Mehdi,

Ahh --- Some legitimate questions for a change.

I will be away for a few days, but will respond to them later.

[placid]

Hi Mehdi,

So as not to make it too long, I will answer these three first.

When you ask questions on the Scriptures, you will get answers from the Scriptures, however, there may be references to the Quran as well.

If you don’t want to accept what the Scripture says, that is up to you.

Quote: Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?

ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Response: --- In the Codex Siniaticus from 400 AD, Acts 9:7 says the same, but 22:9 says:

And those that were with me saw indeed the light, but understood not the voice of him that spoke to me.

--- In Scripture the sense of “hearing’ something can mean “understanding” what is spoken.

So, the men with Paul in 9:7 “heard a voice,” --- and in 22:9, they “understood not the voice.”

--- It could have been as simple as the Lord speaking to Saul in Hebrew, which Paul knew, but the others may have been Roman guards, or soldiers, so they would hear the voice, but not understand the words.

Quote: WIFE IN PARADISE

Genesis 3:20

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Response: --- Adam and Eve were originally in the Garden of Eden, and were there in harmony with God, --- when they listened to Iblis/Satan (Surah 7) and were disobedient to God they were put out of the Garden and the curse came upon the serpent, and upon mankind, Gen 3:14-19.

V 20 is the next verse, where “Adam called his wife Eve,”--- which was after they were changed to human bodies because they had “died” Spiritually.

Quote: FLESH IN PARADISE AND EYES TO SEE GOD!

Job 19:26 -27

26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see himwith my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Response: --- Job was written in poetic form so I don’t presume to understand it all, --- but this was his assurance in God, that he would be resurrected after the death and decay of the body.

When he mentions a body of “flesh,” it is not a body of “flesh and blood” because the blood was the “life support system” that was given to them when they were put out of the Garden, --- because the Holy Spirit, which had been their “life support system” in the Garden, had to be withdrawn from them, --- as they were then “unholy vessels.”

--- There has always been a mystery about the “resurrected body” but the promise is that there will be a “resurrection” in a body.

There is a “water body” mentioned in 1 John in relationship to Jesus coming to earth, which is interesting. --- Many times in the OT angels came to earth to represent God, and --- If Jesus had come as an angel, He could have done all the works of God, healed the sick, raised the dead, and taught the people, but he could not have died physically, as He did in His body of “flesh and blood.”

1 John 5:

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

--- It speaks of there being a “water body” that Jesus could have come in, but He came in a “flesh and blood body” and the Scripture says that “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.” --- Therefore, as ”The life is in the blood,” the body of Jesus was drained of blood, --- and was resurrected in a Glorified body, Surah (3:55)

Placid

[placid]

To continue from above:

Quote: DRINKING IN THE BIBLICAL PARADISE

Matthew 26:29

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Response: --- The fruit of the vine that they drank was ‘grape juice.’

There is no place where the Communion at the Last Supper, or the instruction to celebrate it later refers to wine, but always to ‘the cup.’

Since there is nothing in Heaven that would spoil, or ferment, it would be what they refer to as ‘Sweet wine” or “New wine” (unfermented) from the ‘grapevines’ in Heaven.

This is the ordinance of “communion” that is followed by most Churches:

1 Corinthians 11:

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;

24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

Quote: EATING BREAD IN PARADISE

Luke 14:15

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

Response: --- In both the NT and the Quran it mentions ‘feasting’ in heaven.

I am not sure it mentions eating ‘bread.’ --- If it does, then it will be there to eat

Remember, the ‘Manna’ that God provided in the wilderness was called ‘bread..

Quote: JESUS WAS TAKEN UP WITH PHYSICAL BODY

Luke 24:51

51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

Response: --- After the Resurrection Jesus showed Himself alive, but was in a Spiritual body. --- However, this body had substance that could be seen and touched, but could appear ‘in their midst,’ as happened in Luke 24:

32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He (Jesus) talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together,

34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”

35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.

36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet

Notice: --- This may have been a special body in which He appeared to prove the resurrection, --- but it was maybe not the body in which ‘He was taken up to heaven.’ --- as that body was weightless, or at ‘zero gravity,’ --- like we understand that the angels are.

--- Notice also: --- Jesus said, ‘flesh and bones,’ but not ‘flesh and blood,’ --- because the blood and water had been drained out of His body on the cross, as it says in John 20:

33 But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.

34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.

36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.”

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

Notice: --- V 35, “He who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true.” --- This was the Apostle John, who had been there, standing at the foot of the cross with Mary, the mother of Jesus and some others, and the one that Jesus talked to here:

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved {John) standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!”

27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple (John) took her to his own home.

Quote: PAUL'S CONTRADICTION OF A PHYSICAL PARADISE BASED ON IMAGINATION

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. (1 Corinthians 15:44)

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Response: --- There is no contradiction as in death the ‘flesh and blood body’ dies, so the resurrected body is called a Spiritual body.

Quote: JESUS EATING AFTER HIS ALLEGED RESURRECTION (hint:its either Jesus did not die and resurrect or after resurrection and life returns people still have physical bodies.christians should make a choice!)

Luke 24:41-43

New International Version (NIV)

41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?”

42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,

43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Response: --- You used the verses that follow verse 40, above.

You must remember that God is God, --- He can do what He does.

Consider Genesis 18:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him (Abraham) by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.

4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.

5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”

They said, “Do as you have said.”

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.”

7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.

8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

Notice: --- The LORD appeared, and two angels with Him. It was on this occasion that the LORD revealed that Sarah would have a son. --- Also the two angels went to Sodom and Gomorrah and after getting Lot and his two daughters out, destroyed the cities.

Notice again: ---The LORD and the angels ate both bread and meat,

These mysteries of God we accept by faith. God can do whatever He wills to do.

Placid

[placid]

(To continue with what Jesus, John, Peter and Paul taught their followers.)

The general criticism about Paul, after he became an Apostle for Christ, is that he preached a different Gospel message.

In recent posts on other topics I have quoted what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3, which is, “You must be born again.”

He said we must be ‘born of the Holy Spirit of God.’

Jesus gave the disciples this commandment in John 13:

34 A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

In John 14, Jesus gave them further knowledge of the Holy Spirit. He said:

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

--- (This Helper, also called the Comforter, is the Holy Spirit, which indwelt Jesus, so He was ‘with them’ in the Person of Jesus, but would be ‘in them’ after the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2.)

Jesus goes on to say what this Helper will do for them:

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

--- Here is the evidence that the Apostles were true witnesses because the Gospel Message, was first given to Jesus, the same way, --- through His intellect.

While some speak of the ‘Injil’ as a lost book, --- it was never in book form as can be understood from Surah 3:

48. And He (God) will teach him (Jesus) the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,

So, as Jesus received the Scripture and the Gospel Message by the Holy Spirit of God ‘through His intellect,’ --- this gave Him instant recall, and He didn’t have to study books to give answers to those who questioned Him.

--- Now, Jesus said in v 26, that the Helper, the Holy Spirit, --- would ‘teach them all things’ --- and ‘bring to their remembrance ALL that Jesus had said to them.’

They would not only have knowledge of the Scriptures, but would have ‘recall’ of what Jesus taught them, --- therefore, they could preach, teach, and write down in the Gospels, what Jesus said and did.

--- This came with the ‘born again’ experience.

John says this of Jesus in his Gospel account, in ch 1:

11 He came to His own (domain) and His own (people) did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John writes extensively about the indwelling Holy Spirit in believers, and the ‘expression of love’ --- through believers.

This is what Jesus and John taught, so I will continue later with what Peter and Paul taught.

(This is what Jesus and John taught, and next I will add what Peter and Paul taught.)

Placid

[placid]

To continue with the words of Peter and Paul

In Peter’s first letter, he wrote in ch 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,

7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

8 whom having not seen, you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Notice: --- V 3, “Has begotten us again,” --- or, caused us to be “born again” --- to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

--- And again Peter says

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

Notice: --- having been “born again,” --- of incorruptible seed, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

Paul wrote in Romans 12:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Paul explains the process of being ‘born again.’

First, --- present your bodies, or yourselves, as a living sacrifice --- (totally surrendered to God, as a willing servant)

Second, --- do not be conformed to this world --- (do not follow the fashions and passions of the world, --- or, ‘don’t let the world squeeze you into its mold.’)

Third, --- but be ‘transformed’ by the renewing of your mind, --- this is the enlightenment given by the Holy Spirit of God .

Fourth, --- The good and acceptable and ‘perfect will of God’ results in the ‘good works’ that are done as a result of this ‘new birth’ experience, --- because now you are living in God’s realm of service and blessing.

Again in Ephesians 2:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

This is what Paul taught the Gentiles: --- that they must have a ‘conversion’ experience, be ‘born again,’ --- or, as he expressed it, ‘made alive in Christ’ and live apart from the ungodly world, and in devotion to God.

This is still the teaching in our Evangelical Churches and Evangelistic meetings.

--- The teaching of Jesus, John, Peter, and Paul was all the same Message of repentance, surrendering to God and receiving His Holy Spirit.

Now, don’t you suppose that such an important Spiritual experience would be revealed to Muhammad as well, when he was called to be a servant of God?

(Next post)

Placid

[aladdin]

From the killer of brother of Jesus called, James and his seventy thousand discples.

To Paul the Apostle.

Yazid killed the grandson of the Prophet and 72 of his disciples.

Paul killed the brother of Jesus and 70,000 of his disciples.

And, then Paul was crowned the Apostle.

No wonder the Kabethen Wahhabis are trying to crowm Yazid with the title of Apostle.

Monkey see, monkey do!

[Son of Placid]

How about a little confirmation on your statements or does whatever you say become truth?

If you're going to attack someone for their beliefs or questions don't you think you should make sense?

[aladdin]

How about a little confirmation on your statements or does whatever you say become truth?

If you're going to attack someone for their beliefs or questions don't you think you should make sense?

Finally, you can speek some regular English, rather than quoting bumbo jumbo from the Quran and the hadith.

Bring me the truth that the Old Testament, the TaNaKh spoke about the virgin birth?

Or, the Hebrew name of Lord Lucifer the Greek/Roman?

Double Challenge!

The Father and Son tag team.

The Father quotes the mumbo jumbo of the Scripture, including the Quran and the Hadith, by twisting the Srcipture.

The Son comes to rescue the Father.

[Son of Placid]

Your usual response I see.

Still waiting til you make sense.

I say show me where Paul killed 70,000 people and you say show me first the name of lord lucifer?

relevence...nobody taught you that?

No tag team, it doesn't matter who you try to bash, you still have to make sense.

[placid]

Hi Aladdin,

Quote from Post 25:

From the killer of brother of Jesus called, James and his seventy thousand discples.

To Paul the Apostle.

Yazid killed the grandson of the Prophet and 72 of his disciples.

Paul killed the brother of Jesus and 70,000 of his disciples.

And, then Paul was crowned the Apostle.

Response: --- I have to smile at your “off the top of your head” comments.

When you don’t really know anything, you still have to say something.

In the OT the Nation of Israel was threatened by nations around them and it was necessary for King Saul and King David to defend their people, so, as God led them they destroyed the enemies, who wanted to destroy them.

I would think that you should know that King Saul who lived about 1050 BC was not the same person as Saul of Tarsus who was known in the NT Scriptures from about 34-60 AD.

Saul was a Pharisee and opposed the Christians, but Jews had no authority to kill anyone. Saul was there at the illegal stoning of the Deacon Stephen, but Saul did not take part. He went with some other ‘authorities’ and arrested Christens, bringing them back to Jerusalem and putting them in Jail, but not to death.

James, the brother of Jesus, was the Elder, or minister at the Church in Jerusalem, and officiated at the meeting in Acts 15, where James complimented Paul and Barnabas in their work among Gentile Christians. --- James was not killed until after Paul and Luke had gone to Rome.

--- However, James, the brother of John was killed by King Herod.

Acts 12 says this:

1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also.

--- There is no mention of 70,000 disciples of anybody in the NT. --- These figures can only relate to the armies of the Amalekites or the Philistines who usually outnumbered the armies of Israel in battle back in the days of King Saul, 1050 BC.

Paul became a Christian after his remarkable experience in Acts 9, which changed him from being a persecuter of Christians to being a persecuted Christian Jew, and was named a Missionary and Apostle later.

--- Your remarks seem to have no relationship to anything, --- but it is better to acknowledge them than to ignore them.

Placid

[aladdin]

^^^ lol

You are joking, aren't you. Comparing the murderer of James, the brother of Jesus, and the murderer of 70,000 adherents of James, the brother of Jesus, to someone mentioned in the Holy Quran along with David. I can guarantee you the murderer of James and the murderer of 70,000 adherents of James is never mentioned in the Holy Quran.

Ayahs 2:246-248 give an account of the appointment of Israel's first king, and 249-251 report on preparation and result of his first battle. Muslim translators usually write Saul, David and Goliath in their English translations for the Arabic names Talut, Dawud and Jalut in the Qur'an.

Improve your horizon brother, get out of the business of Father and Son. There are no capital letters in Hebrew just like in Arabic.

the men are sons of elohim and the women are daughters of men.

basically, it is saying that men are sons of mighty men, and women are daughters of men.

so, is jesus son of elohim too.

nothing especial here. no biggee!

Edited September 15, 2011 by aladdin

[placid]

You are joking, aren't you. Comparing the murderer of James, the brother of Jesus, and the murderer of 70,000 adherents of James, the brother of Jesus, to someone mentioned in the Holy Quran along with David. I can guarantee you the murderer of James and the murderer of 70,000 adherents of James is never mentioned in the Holy Quran.

Can you give chapter and verse for your false statements?

I didn’t mention the Quran.

[aladdin]

^^^^ You and the other Placid are not good readers.

I have already given you above the chapter and verses. Saul, David and Goliath, whose real Semitic names are Talut, Dawud and Jalut are mentioned in chapter 2 verses 246 to 252.

Now ponder this for a change. You keep on twisiting the message of Jesus and even the message of the Holy Quran regarding Jesus.

None of the Jesus disciples, not even one of the 12 disciples, not even Paul (Saul) is/are mentioned in the Holy Quran.

Wonder Why?

Maybe, one of the reasons is that, they all twisted the message of Jesus, all the 12 disciples, even Paul (Saul) too.

[ShortOfDeeds]

From the killer of brother of Jesus called, James and his seventy thousand discples.

To Paul the Apostle.

Paul killed the brother of Jesus and 70,000 of his disciples.

And, then Paul was crowned the Apostle.

Please cite source of these statements.

[aladdin]

^^^^ The history of Paul is well known and his murders of the adherents of Jesus. It doesn't need citation.

1. What happened to the 12 disciples of Jesus?

2. Where did they disappear?

3. Does the four Gospels give prophesy for Paul without circular reasoning and/or vague passages?

Paul claims that he saw Jesus in his mytical dream, Jesus telling Paul that he is ...... Paul then closed his eyes for three days and acted blind.

You gotta be kidding.

[ShortOfDeeds]

^^^^ The history of Paul is well known and his murders of the adherents of Jesus. It doesn't need citation.

1. What happened to the 12 disciples of Jesus?

2. Where did they disappear?

3. Does the four Gospels give prophesy for Paul without circular reasoning and/or vague passages?

Paul claims that he saw Jesus in his mytical dream, Jesus telling Paul that he is ...... Paul then closed his eyes for three days and acted blind.

You gotta be kidding.

Paul was killed before Peter and John live many years after both of their deaths. Please explain to me how the preachings of Paul survived? If Peter or John would have rebuked the teachings of Paul, Pauls teaching surely would have been thrown out. Afterall, who wouldn't believe disciples of Jesus over any other preaching about Christ. When Peter was in Rome, after Paul's death, wouldn't the Romans flock to Pauls teachings and abandon Paul's. Peter did not preach a different message, but confirmed Paul's message and that is why Paul's words have survived.