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In the Name of God بسم الله

Position Of The Sahabah

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Some shias sometimes get a bit confused about why sunnis like some of the sahabah (e.g. Abu bakr/Umar (ra) ). So I thought Id put forward a few hadith relating to them.

not trying to start an argument or anything...just putting our view forward iA (i.e. the following are some of the reasons)

Abu bakr (ra)

narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, who said: The Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam said: "......O Abu Bakr, do not weep. Abu Bakr has favoured me greatly with his companionship and his wealth. If I were to have taken a close friend among my ummah, I would have chosen Abu Bakr, but the brotherhood of Islam is sufficient. Do not leave any door to the mosque without closing it off, apart from the door of Abu Bakr.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 466; Muslim, 2382

he accompanied the Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam during the Hijrah, as Allaah azza wa jal says:

“If you help him (Muhammad) not (it does not matter), for Allaah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of the two; when they (Muhammad and Abu Bakr) were in the cave, he said to his companion (Abu Bakr): ‘Be not sad (or afraid), surely, Allaah is with us.’ Then Allaah sent down His Sakeenah (calmness, tranquillity, peace) upon him, and strengthened him with forces (angels) which you saw not, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowermost, while the Word of Allaah that became the uppermost; and Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise”

[al-Tawbah 9:40]

And ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas(ra) narrated that the Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam appointed him as the commander of the army of Dhaat al-Salaasil. He said: So I came to him and said, “Which of the people is dearest to you?” He said, “ ‘Aa’ishah.” I said, “Who among men?” He said, “Her father.” I said, “Then who?” He said, “Then ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab,” and he mentioned some other men. Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3662; Muslim, 2384.

the Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam appointed him to lead the prayers in his stead at the end of his life, when he fell sick with his final illness, and he rebuked those who objected to this and said, “Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 683; Muslim 418.

And it was narrated from Anas ibn Maalik (ra) that the Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam climbed Uhud with Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and ‘Uthmaan, and it trembled beneath them. He said, ‘Stand firm, O Uhud, for there is no one on you but a Prophet, a Siddeeq and two martyrs.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3675.

Umar (ra)

Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (ra) said: The Messenger of Allaah sallalahoalaihiwasallam said: “Whilst I was sleeping, I saw the people were shown to me, and they were wearing shirts. Some shirts came down to the chest, and some were shorter than that. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was shown to me and he was wearing a shirt that dragged along the ground.” They said, “How did you interpret that, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Religious commitment.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 23; Muslim, 2390.

other:

Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah (who was the son of ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib) said: “I said to my father, ‘Which of the people was the best after the Messenger of Allaah sallalahoalaihiwasallam ?’ He said, ‘Abu Bakr.’ I said, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Then ‘Umar.’ I was afraid that he would say ‘Uthmaan. I said, ‘Then is it you?’ He said, ‘I am only one of the Muslims.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3671.

And the Prophet sallalahoalaihiwasallam said: “In sha Allaah, no one among the companions of the tree, those who gave their oath of allegiance beneath the tree, will enter Hell.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2496). Among those who pledged allegiance beneath the tree were Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali, (ra).

Mutawaatir reports from ‘Ali (ra) show that he used to say, “The best of this ummah after its Prophet is Abu Bakr then ‘Umar.” And he (ra) used to say, “No one is brought to me who prefers me over them, but I will whip him with the hadd punishment for telling lies.”

Edited by Abdullah9
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Bro, if you're trying to convince Shias, then don't use Sunni books to make your point. They are meaningless to us, just like ours are to you.

as stated in my first 2 sentances...this is for those who ask 'how can people like Abu Bakr (ra)'

they ask our reasons, above are some of them... thats all

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as stated in my first 2 sentances...this is for those who ask 'how can people like Abu Bakr (ra)'

they ask our reasons, above are some of them... thats all

I have a few questions for you (I am not going to start an argument nor am I going to have a debate... lets make this fruitful and free of verbal violence):

1. Is it possible that someone can go astray? Even if that person was loved by a prophet?

2. Can you justify the story of Fadak (where the khulafa stole the inherited property away from Syyidatana Fatima)?

3. How did Fatima die? Was it a natural death? I don't think so... people don't naturally die before the age of 60 let alone 18-20.

4. Can you justify the anger of Fatima towards Abu Bakr and Umar?

Here are some sources from the Ahl-Sunnah books I will be using as a reference to the questions:

2. "Narrated by Ayesha(mother of the believers),'After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima,the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her the share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting)which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet (saww) had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of the Holy prophet(saww)."

-Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325

3. "“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.'".

-Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045

4. We read in the Sahih Bukhari Volume 5 Hadeeth 61: "Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."

Now, can you justify this:

"“Fatima (ra) became angry with Abu Bakr and left him and never conversed with him again until she died”

-Izalat ul Khifa, Volume 2 page 112

NONE OF THE HADITHS I HAVE PROVIDED YOU ARE FROM SHIA SOURCE. They are from sunni sources. You can go ahead and check them if you have a doubt. I provided the sources at the end of the hadiths.

Edited by Mansour Hosseini
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as stated in my first 2 sentances...this is for those who ask 'how can people like Abu Bakr (ra)'

they ask our reasons, above are some of them... thats all

The Verse of Mubahila refutes all that. How can you place anyone above the "self" of the Prophet (pbuh), Imam 'Ali (as)?

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i thought the door that was not closed or sealed was that of ImaÉ Ali , even in your books !

translate them to English :

ÍÏíË ÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí :

ÃÎÑÌ ÇáÊÑãÐí ÈÓäÏå Úä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ : « Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÃãÑ ÈÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí » (47).

æÃÎÑÌ Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÞÇá : « ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã áÚáí : íÇ Úáí ¡ áÇ íÍá áÃÍÏ Ãä íÌäÈ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÓÌÏ ÛíÑí æÛíÑß . ÞÇá Úáí Èä ÇáãäÐÑ : ÞáÊ áÖÑÇÑ Èä ÕÑÏ : ãÇ ãÚäì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË ¿ ÞÇá : áÇ íÍá áÃÍÏ íÓÊØÑÞå ÌäÈÇ ÛíÑí æÛíÑß » (48).

æÃÎÑÌ ÃÍãÏ ÈÓäÏå Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇáÑÞíã ÇáßäÇäí ¡ ÞÇá : « ÎÑÌäÇ Åáì ÇáãÏíäÉ Òãä ÇáÌãá ¡ ÝáÞíäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ãÇáß ÈåÇ ÝÞÇá : ÃãÑ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÈÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÇáÔÇÑÚÉ Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ æÊÑß ÈÇÈ Úáí » (49) .

æÃÎÑÌå ÃÍãÏ ßÐáß ÈÃÓÇäíÏ ãÎÊáÝÉ Úä ÛíÑ æÇÍÏ ãä ÇáÕÍÇÈÉ (50) .

____________

(47) ÕÍíÍ ÇáÊÑãÐí 2 / 301 .

(48) ÕÍíÍ ÇáÊÑãÐí 2 / 300 .

(49) ãÓäÏ ÃÍãÏ 1 / 175 .

(50) ÑÇÌÚ ÇáãÓäÏ 1 / 175 ¡ 330 ¡ æ 2 / 26

æÃÎÑÌ ÇáÍÇßã ÈÓäÏå Úä ÒíÏ Èä ÃÑÞã ÞÇá : « ßÇäÊ áäÝÑ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÃÈæÇÈ ÔÇÑÚÉ Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ . ÝÞÇá íæãÇ : ÓÏæÇ åÐå ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí .

ÞÇá : ÝÊßáã Ýí Ðáß ÇáäÇÓ ¡ ÝÞÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ÝÍãÏ Çááå æÃËäì Úáíå Ëã ÞÇá : ÃãÇ ÈÚÏ ¡ ÝÅäí ÃãÑÊ ÈÓÏ åÐå ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÛíÑ ÈÇÈ Úáí ÝÞÇá Ýíå ÞÇÆáßã ¡ æÇááå ãÇ ÓÏÏÊ ÔíÆÇ æáÇ ÝÊÍÊå ¡ æáßä ÃãÑÊ ÈÔíÁ ÝÇÊÈÚÊå .

åÐÇ ÍÏíË ÕÍíÍ ÇáÅÓäÇÏ » (51) .

æÃÎÑÌ ÈÓäÏå Úä ÃÈí åÑíÑÉ ÞÇá : « ÞÇá ÚãÑ Èä ÇáÎØÇÈ : áÞÏ ÃÚØí Úáí ÇÈä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ ËáÇË ÎÕÇá áÆä Êßæä áí ÎÕáÉ ãäåÇ ÃÍÈ Åáí ãä Ãä ÃÚØì ÍãÑ ÇáäÚã . Þíá : æãÇ åä íÇ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ¿ ÞÇá : ÊÒæÌå ÝÇØãÉ ÈäÊ ÑÓæá Çááå ¡ æÓßäÇå ÇáãÓÌÏ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå íÍá áå Ýíå ãÇ íÍá áå ¡ æÇáÑÇíÉ íæã ÎíÈÑ .

åÐÇ ÍÏíË ÕÍíÍ ÇáÅÓäÇÏ » (52) .

æÃÎÑÌ ÇáäÓÇÆí ÈÓäÏå Úä ÇáÍÇÑË Èä ãÇáß ÞÇá : « ÃÊíÊ ãßÉ ÝáÞíÊ ÓÚÏ ÇÈä ÃÈí æÞÇÕ ÝÞáÊ áå : ÓãÚÊ áÚáí ãäÞÈÉ ¿ ÞÇá : ßäÇ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ ÝÑæì ÝíäÇ áÓÏå áíÎÑÌ ãä Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ ÅáÇ Âá ÑÓæá Çááå æÂá Úáí . ÞÇá : ÝÎÑÌäÇ ¡ ÝáãÇ ÃÕÈÍ ÃÊÇå Úãå ÝÞÇá : íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÃÎÑÌÊ ÃÕÍÇÈß æÃÚãÇãß æÃÓßäÊ åÐÇ ÇáÛáÇã ¿ ! ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã : ãÇ ÃäÇ ÃãÑÊ ÈÅÎÑÇÌßã æáÇ ÈÅÓßÇä åÐÇ ÇáÛáÇã . Åä Çááå åæ ÃãÑ Èå .

ÞÇá ÇáäÓÇÆí : ÞÇá ÝØÑ : Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÔÑíß ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÃÑÞã ¡ Úä ÓÚÏ : Åä ÇáÚÈÇÓ ÃÊì ÇáäÈí ÝÞÇá : ÓÏÏÊ ÃÈæÇÈäÇ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí ¿ ! ÝÞÇá : ãÇ ÃäÇ ÝÊÍÊåÇ æáÇ ÃäÇ ÓÏÏÊåÇ » (53) .

____________

(51) ÇáãÓÊÏÑß Úá ÇáÕÍíÍíä 3 / 125 .

(52) ÇáãÓÊÏÑß Úá ÇáÕÍíÍíä 3 / 125 .

(53) ÎÕÇÆÕ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ : 13 .

--------------------------------------------------

so whos to beive ? the Hadith that say dont close Abu Bakr door or teh one that say dont close Imam Ali's door ?

according to Termithi , the abu bakr hadith is ghareeb-strange-

and in some places Marfoo3

yes it was mentioned in Bukhari and then according to you it is Sahih but i am not obliged to take Bikhari as Sahih brother

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The hadith pertaining to the door opening for Abu Bakr is fabricated and it can be easily refuted if one reads history. Abu bakr never resided in Medina that a door can be left open for him. He lived in the outskirts of Medina so there is no way a door of the mosque in Medina could be left open for a house which was not even in Medina. This hadith was for Imam Ali's (as) house which the enemies of Ahlul Bayt concocted in favour of their beloved.

Similarly the remaining ones are also concoted & one cannot take them as sahih just because the book's title says they are.

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Salaam Wa Alaikum,

Guys please, he's merely answering the question Ahlul-Shia will ask how the Ahlul-Sunnah can like these people

He isn't trying to convince anyone, he's merely stating why Sunni think the way we do, we should be tolerant of his opinion, and respect that he is just answering a question some may have for him.

Yes we have our reasons for not liking them.. but he's simply explaining his belief.

Debate when a debate is called for, he was not calling for a debate or trying to prove anything

Salaaam

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Salaam Wa Alaikum,

Guys please, he's merely answering the question Ahlul-Shia will ask how the Ahlul-Sunnah can like these people

He isn't trying to convince anyone, he's merely stating why Sunni think the way we do, we should be tolerant of his opinion, and respect that he is just answering a question some may have for him.

Yes we have our reasons for not liking them.. but he's simply explaining his belief.

Debate when a debate is called for, he was not calling for a debate or trying to prove anything

Salaaam

Good point... HOWEVER

We are questioning him why he still likes them despite the things they did towards the Ahl-Bait as narrated in their OWN books? If the "bad stuff" about the khulafa was only written in our hadith books but not in the sunni hadith books, then I wouldn't care if they praise them... but despite so much things in the sunni books which expose some khulafa and some companions, they somehow ignore it and still love them.

If there were more than 1 sahih hadith in shia books which expose anyone including companions like Abu Zar ghaffari, we should question them before accept them as the pious people. Thats all I'm saying.

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I have a few questions for you (I am not going to start an argument nor am I going to have a debate... lets make this fruitful and free of verbal violence):

1. Is it possible that someone can go astray? Even if that person was loved by a prophet?

2. Can you justify the story of Fadak (where the khulafa stole the inherited property away from Syyidatana Fatima)?

3. How did Fatima die? Was it a natural death? I don't think so... people don't naturally die before the age of 60 let alone 18-20.

4. Can you justify the anger of Fatima towards Abu Bakr and Umar?

.

I agree, discussions are much better than debates/arguments!

before I answer, iA I hope you understand that I am not (nor do I claim to be) a scholar so if I cant answer all your questions, its due to my lack of knowledge..meaning more homework for me!

but iA I will say the position of the sunni scholars with regards to the points you made. cant answer number 3, dont know about that. (also sorry for the long posts!)

Inheritance:

Then end of the hadith was Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet (sallallahoalaihiwasallam) had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)."

we understand that Fatimah (ra.) was angry with Abu Bakr (r.a) due to the witholding of inheritance, however, he did so due to not wanting to disobey the messenger of Allah sallallahoalaihiwasallam. He clearly stated his reason for witholding it was due to what he heard and it was not due to any sort of hatred towards her etc. The sunni scholars agree with his position due to the fact that it is his obligation to follow what the messenger of Allah sallallahoalaihiwasallam has said.

Her anger:

The hadith regarding "“Faatimah is part of me and whoever angers her angers me.” was due to Ali(r.a) proposed to the daughter of Abu Jahl and was due to the fact the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam didnt want to she her get hurt (in another narration/translation he sallallahoalaihiwasallam said “Faatimah is a part of me and what hurts her hurts me.”)

The Prophet (sallallahoalaihiwasallam) said in other saheeh ahaadeeth: “Whoever obeys me had obeyed Allaah and whoever disobeys me has disobeyed Allaah. Whoever obeys my commander has obeyed me and whoever disobeys my commander has disobeyed me.”

We agree with the above hadith regarding angering Fatimah (r.a), However, it does not always apply. We say it only applies as long as it is in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah (in other words, if she was to become angry over something, for example, that goes against the Quran, the above quote would not apply)

When people came to the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam asking him not to cut of the hand of a women who stole due to her status, he replied “If Faatimah the daughter of Muhammad were to steal, I would cut off her hand.” No doubt cutting her hand off would anger her, but here he is saying if she goes against the laws of Allah azza wa jal then the laws of Allah come before her anger.

I hope the above explains why, although Fathimah (ra) got angry at Abu Bakr (r.a), the hadith of her anger making the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam angry does not apply (since Abu Bakr was acting in acordance to what the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam told him)

I think its important to note here for other people, firstly all poeple are (including sahaba etc) are capable of making mistakes. secondly I dont think that Fatimah (ra) intentionally went against the hadith quoted to her by Abu Bakr (ra), she had a reason which I dont remember. saying that, may sahabah had differences of opinion and disagreed on various issues. this may have been one of them in which case they are iA both correct.

There are some narrations that say she did speak to him afterwards.

Kitaabul Muwaafiqah narrates that Anaani said:

“Abu Bakr came to the door of Fatima in the midday sun and said: ‘I shall not leave from here as long as the daughter of Rasool-Allah remains displeased with me. Ali came to Fatima and giving her an oath urged her to become pleased. Then she became pleased (with Abu Bakr).”

“When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answerd, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So he talked to her until she was pleased with him.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi)

FINALLY (again sorry for long posts...)

burning of the house:

I wont quote the hadith because its a bit long. but in summary. Many of the sahabah gave bayah to Abu Bakr (ra). Ali/Zubair (ra) and some others were not present (due to funeral planning). They gathered in the house of Fatimah (ra) to discuss who should become the next Khalifah (since they were unaware of the fact that people had already given bayah to Abu Bakr (ra). Zubair (ra) suggested Ali (ra) should be khalifah.

Umar (ra) wen to her house (they were no longer present)) and he told her “O the daughter of Rasoolullah (S.A.W.), nobody from amongst the people is more beloved to me than your father and nobody is more beloved to me than you after your father. I have received the bad news that these people are gathering in your house and conspiring against the Khilaafat of Abubakar. If they do not stop conspiring then by Allah! I will burn their homes.” Fatimah (ra) told Ali and others (ra) to give bayah to Abu Bakr.

Few points about the above:

1. Umar (r.a) associated with Fatima (r.a) in a very respectful manner and also mentioned to her that she was more beloved to him than his own children.

2. Umar (r.a) did not threaten Fatima (r.a) in any way.

3. When Umar (ra) left Fatima (r.a)’s house, both Fatima (r.a) and her home were sound and intact. No harm was afflicted on either of them. Later when Ali (.ra) arrived Fatima (r.a) did not complain of Umar (r.a) behaving in a disrespectful manner, rather she advised him not to oppose Umar (ra) and not to conspire against the Khilaafat of Abubakar (r.a) in her house in future.

4. Ali (r.a) and Zubair (r.a) took Bay’at on the hands of Abubakar (r.a) without any coercion.

The reason why Umar (r.a) reacted staunchly with those who opposed the Khilaafat after Abubakar (r.a) was appointed as the Khalifah was because Rasoolullah sallallahoalaihiwasallam has said: “If anybody else claims Khilaafat after a Khalifah has been chosen from amongst the Muslims, then he should be killed no matter who he may be.” (Sahih Muslim)

If the people at the house of Fatimah (r.a) had given bayah to Ali (r.a), this would have caused many problems, divisions between people, and ofcourse the hadith mentioned above.

iA I hope that answers your questions (hmm now to spend the next 30 yrs editing this because ive put (r.a.) too many times! )

The Verse of Mubahila refutes all that. How can you place anyone above the "self" of the Prophet (pbuh), Imam 'Ali (a.s)?

dont understand?

i thought the door that was not closed or sealed was that of Imaة Ali , even in your books !

translate them to English :

Im not a translator so wont be able to do that lol, but iA will look that up soon

Good point... HOWEVER

We are questioning him why he still likes them despite the things they did towards the Ahl-Bait as narrated in their OWN books? If the "bad stuff" about the khulafa was only written in our hadith books but not in the sunni hadith books, then I wouldn't care if they praise them... but despite so much things in the sunni books which expose some khulafa and some companions, they somehow ignore it and still love them.

If there were more than 1 sahih hadith in shia books which expose anyone including companions like Abu Zar ghaffari, we should question them before accept them as the pious people. Thats all I'm saying.

I dont think its fair to accuse us of 'ignoring' those narrations. we interpret them in differrent ways.

Edited by Abdullah9
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Well just to discuss the topic a bit further.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated Ayesha(mother of the believers)

" Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of the Holy prophet(saww).

further along in the Hadith:

Narrated 'Aisha: "…She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah's Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, "I will not leave anything Allah's Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet's tradition, then I would go astray." …

For the purpose of the discussion Sahih Bukhari is the authentic if NOT THE MOST Authentic book according to Sunni Muslims.

So its important to recognize that Hazrat Fatima a.s. was angered. Also she asked for her property.

Shia argue that she should have gotten her right.

Sunni argue everything after the Prophet should go to charity.

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Inheritance:

Then end of the hadith was Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet (sallallahoalaihiwasallam) had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)."

we understand that Fatimah (ra.) was angry with Abu Bakr (r.a) due to the witholding of inheritance, however, he did so due to not wanting to disobey the messenger of Allah sallallahoalaihiwasallam. He clearly stated his reason for witholding it was due to what he heard and it was not due to any sort of hatred towards her etc. The sunni scholars agree with his position due to the fact that it is his obligation to follow what the messenger of Allah sallallahoalaihiwasallam has said.

First of all, who was Umar to correct the daughter of Rasullah? Secondly, if it is true that prophets cannot inherit to their children, then what about Prophet Soleiman inheriting from his father Dawood?

"And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"" - Al-Quran Surah 27, Ayah 16

The hadith that Abu Bakr recited was FAKE! If it was real, then he was contradicting the Quran because qurans said that prophet soleiman inhereted from prophet dawood.

Thirdly, when the prophet said "whoever makes her (fatima) angry has angered me", he didn't give any exceptions. he didn't say "who ever angers her (fatima) angers me, except if she is angry with Abu Bakr"... he clearly mentioned it without ANY exceptions!

The hadith regarding "“Faatimah is part of me and whoever angers her angers me.” was due to Ali(r.a) proposed to the daughter of Abu Jahl and was due to the fact the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam didnt want to she her get hurt

Astaghfarullah! I seek refuge in Allah from such words. May Allah show you mercy brother. I am not going to argue whether your statement is true or false, but regardless of that, let me ask you... when the Prophet said that statement, did he only mean it for that particular instinct? Lets say for the sake of argument that what you just said is correct... but doesn't it apply to Abu Bakr as well? Don't you think that Prophet was making a general statement when he said "whoever hurts her hurts me"? In this case, do you think she was happy with Abu Bakr? And lets say that Ali DID (even though he didn't) propose the daughter of Abu Jahl, but did he marry her? NO! Therefore, he didn't anger Fatima. But how about Abu Bakr?! Can you justify that?!

We agree with the above hadith regarding angering Fatimah (r.a), However, it does not always apply. We say it only applies as long as it is in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah (in other words, if she was to become angry over something, for example, that goes against the Quran, the above quote would not apply)

What do you mean it does not always reply? And who decides when it applies? Look, when the prophet speaks, he only speaks with the command of god. When he says a single sentence, he says it from Allah DIRECT. You can see it in Surah Najm in verses 2 and 3: "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred" "Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination". And when prophet said that statement, did he said any exceptions? No! He said clearly that "Who ever angers her has angered me". There were no exceptions. Did she go against the Quran when she asked for the inheritance? No! Because in the quran (as mentioned above) it clearly mentions how Prophet Soleiman inherited from Prophet Dawood.

There are some narrations that say she did speak to him afterwards.

Kitaabul Muwaafiqah narrates that Anaani said:

“Abu Bakr came to the door of Fatima in the midday sun and said: ‘I shall not leave from here as long as the daughter of Rasool-Allah remains displeased with me. Ali came to Fatima and giving her an oath urged her to become pleased. Then she became pleased (with Abu Bakr).”

Look, all the Hadiths I shown you is from Sunni source. If you want to prove your point to me, you should give me a shia source since I am a shia. If you want to prove something to a christian, you show him his bible, not the quran. So show me what's in the books SHIAS believe. And give me the exact page, or the number of the hadith from "Kitaabul Muwaafiqah" to show me where you got it from. I showed you where I got my hadiths from. You have to play this game fairly bro.

I am sorry, but your burning of the house paragraph didn't justify or prove anything.

If someone burns the house of the daughter of the prophet, what is his destiny? I don't care for what reasons he burned it. The fact that he burned it is enough for us to question his authority and his status altogether.

Sorry if I seemed a little bold in the above paragraphs, but I cannot control my anger when it comes to the topic of Ahl-Bait and their oppression. I love them as what the Quran orders us to do ("Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." -Al-Qur'an, Surah 42, Ayah 23)

It is wajib for us to love the Ahl-Bait.

Also, I have a question. What authority does Islam give for a Khalifa that is elected by Muslims? Where in the hadith or Quran does it mention the Muslims to pledge their aligance to a Khalifa who is elected by the people? And what authority does that khalifa have? Does he have a right to add or subtract from religion?

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Since the conversation has gone down the debate path just figured I'd throw in..

Fadak wasn't inheritance, he gifted it to her while he was alive - it was hers in his lifetime. Inheritance comes after death... so the inheritance debate isn't really needed.

At least from my understanding

(salam)

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Since the conversation has gone down the debate path just figured I'd throw in..

Fadak wasn't inheritance, he gifted it to her while he was alive - it was hers in his lifetime. Inheritance comes after death... so the inheritance debate isn't really needed.

At least from my understanding

(salam)

Ahsant, however, thats not what the sunnis believe. So despite whether or not it was inheritance, we see that Hazrate Fatima was angered with Abu Bakr. My point is, if Fatima was angry with Abu Bakr, and we see it clearly in sunni books, then why do they still pay him so much respect? Would you respect a person who angers Prophet Mohammad which angers god?

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Look, all the Hadiths I shown you is from Sunni source. If you want to prove your point to me, you should give me a shia source since I am a shia. If you want to prove something to a christian, you show him his bible, not the quran. So show me what's in the books SHIAS believe.

I think if this is going to turn into a debate/argument, im going to stay out of it iA.

for the 3rd time, my reason for not quoting shia sources is because you are asking questions about what I believe. "why do I have no problem with Abu Bakr (ra)." My beliefs are based on my sources, hence why I quote those instead of shia sources. I stated that in my first post. I wasnt trying to convince you of anything as I am aware you dont accept these souces. The reason for making this post is that I have seen some shias claiming that the sunnis have no reasons for liking some of the sahabah, I was just making the point that we do have reasons and we do not 'reject' hadith/quran, we interpret them differently.

anyway, partly due tot he fact that I dont wish to get into arguments, and partly because I will be busy over the next few days (wont be home), I wont be replying any time soon! apologies for that.

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Sorry if I seemed a little bold in the above paragraphs, but I cannot control my anger when it comes to the topic of Ahl-Bait and their oppression. I love them as what the Quran orders us to do ("Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." -Al-Qur'an, Surah 42, Ayah 23)

It is wajib for us to love the Ahl-Bait.

We love the Ahlul bait, the difference between us is we (sunnis) also love a group of people that you (shias) hate, which is what makes you angry.

likewise you hate a group of people we love. so youre not the only one who gets angry, we do too when we see statements made against these people.

general advice: if youre going to discuss these issues where there are disagreements, it will at times make you angry. Its like when muslims talk to a christian, we know that this christian is going to claim that Allah has a son! and this should make us feel some sort of anger. likewise I know that christiants get angry when we tell them "by the way, youre God isnt actually a God..and the bible has been changed.." but if we bring this anger out in these discussions...turns into arguments, we end up not going anywhere. So I hope this adivce will be benificial to us all iA!

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We love the Ahlul bait, the difference between us is we (sunnis) also love a group of people that you (shias) hate, which is what makes you angry.

likewise you hate a group of people we love. so youre not the only one who gets angry, we do too when we see statements made against these people.

general advice: if youre going to discuss these issues where there are disagreements, it will at times make you angry. Its like when muslims talk to a christian, we know that this christian is going to claim that Allah has a son! and this should make us feel some sort of anger. likewise I know that christiants get angry when we tell them "by the way, youre God isnt actually a God..and the bible has been changed.." but if we bring this anger out in these discussions...turns into arguments, we end up not going anywhere. So I hope this adivce will be benificial to us all iA!

Your absolutely right! but your missing one point here. It does not matter if it is Muslim v non Muslim, Sunni v Shia or any other example. Anger or no anger. One thing is for sure! One is RIGHT and the other is WRONG!!! Both can't be right in any sort of argument. You said "We Sunnis also love a group of people that you Shias hate" Did this ever cross your mind that Which is that group and why are they hated??? We love the Ahlul-Baith??? Really??? Do you know what love is about??? When you love someone that means there friend is your friend and their enemy is your enemy. Their opposition is your opposition and so on. What kind of love do you have for the Ahlul-Baith??? Just words only from the tongue??? or is it from the heart backed with, oppose who opposed them, hate who hated them, at war with who was at war with them, against who was against them.

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^^^

A sunni with open mind and truthful purpose who seriously contemplated the Holy Prophet's (pbuh) Ahlulbayt (as), what they stood for and who oppressed them would become a Shi'ah.

Even though this is not recorded in Sahih Bukhari or any of the other big ones it is a FACT.

Why sunnis don't flock in their hundreds of thousands every day to the School of the Ahlulbayt (as) is nothing to do with Truth but everything to do with prejudice, lack of understanding, peer pressure, apathy or latent Nasibi tendency.

ALI

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^^^

A sunni with open mind and truthful purpose who seriously contemplated the Holy Prophet's (pbuh) Ahlulbayt (as), what they stood for and who oppressed them would become a Shi'ah.

Even though this is not recorded in Sahih Bukhari or any of the other big ones it is a FACT.

Why sunnis don't flock in their hundreds of thousands every day to the School of the Ahlulbayt (as) is nothing to do with Truth but everything to do with prejudice, lack of understanding, peer pressure, apathy or latent Nasibi tendency.

ALI

The funniest part of this is...we say exactly the same thing about shias. things like lack of understanding and peer pressure...couldnt I say the same about why shias dont become sunnis?

as for it being a 'fact', we dont believe it is a fact. according to shia sources they may be, but we consider many of those reports to be fabricated (and so not a 'fact')

personally (i.e. from my personal experience with converstations with shias), I find that they pick a few hadith and try and use it to prove their point but then they reject many others. If they studied the works of sunni scholars then they would see that sunni scholars dont base decisions on one ayah and one hadith. they look at every hadith/ayah/statement made by sahabah etc related to one issue and use all of it to come to a conclusion. something that has occurred in this thread too!

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The funniest part of this is...we say exactly the same thing about shias. things like lack of understanding and peer pressure...couldnt I say the same about why shias dont become sunnis?

as for it being a 'fact', we dont believe it is a fact. according to shia sources they may be, but we consider many of those reports to be fabricated (and so not a 'fact')

personally (i.e. from my personal experience with converstations with shias), I find that they pick a few hadith and try and use it to prove their point but then they reject many others. If they studied the works of sunni scholars then they would see that sunni scholars dont base decisions on one ayah and one hadith. they look at every hadith/ayah/statement made by sahabah etc related to one issue and use all of it to come to a conclusion. something that has occurred in this thread too!

Ahle Sunnah belief about the Sahaba is [Kullohum-Adool] they all were just, pious and good. How do you justify that according to Quran and Hadees??? How do you justify that according to reality and facts??? Battles did take place between the Sahaba. That's how far the difference went. So tell me what do you have to say about this???

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I have a few questions for you (I am not going to start an argument nor am I going to have a debate... lets make this fruitful and free of verbal violence):

1. Is it possible that someone can go astray? Even if that person was loved by a prophet?

2. Can you justify the story of Fadak (where the khulafa stole the inherited property away from Syyidatana Fatima)?

3. How did Fatima die? Was it a natural death? I don't think so... people don't naturally die before the age of 60 let alone 18-20.

4. Can you justify the anger of Fatima towards Abu Bakr and Umar?

Here are some sources from the Ahl-Sunnah books I will be using as a reference to the questions:

2. "Narrated by Ayesha(mother of the believers),'After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima,the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her the share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting)which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet (saww) had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of the Holy prophet(saww)."

-Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325

3. "“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.'".

-Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045

4. We read in the Sahih Bukhari Volume 5 Hadeeth 61: "Allah's Apostle said, "Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry."

Now, can you justify this:

"“Fatima (ra) became angry with Abu Bakr and left him and never conversed with him again until she died”

-Izalat ul Khifa, Volume 2 page 112

NONE OF THE HADITHS I HAVE PROVIDED YOU ARE FROM SHIA SOURCE. They are from sunni sources. You can go ahead and check them if you have a doubt. I provided the sources at the end of the hadiths.

Allah's Rasool (pbuh) never said that Syedat-un-Nisaa Fatima (ra) became angry, Umm ul Momineen Aishah (ra) said it. She might be wrong in her judgement as she was a normal human being. I don't think Syedat-un-Nisaa (ra) was angry, because anger at these issues is not the characteristic of the progeny of Muhammad (pbuh)

Edited by Yousuf Ahmed
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The funniest part of this is...we say exactly the same thing about shias. things like lack of understanding and peer pressure...couldnt I say the same about why shias dont become sunnis?

as for it being a 'fact', we dont believe it is a fact. according to shia sources they may be, but we consider many of those reports to be fabricated (and so not a 'fact')

personally (i.e. from my personal experience with converstations with shias), I find that they pick a few hadith and try and use it to prove their point but then they reject many others. If they studied the works of sunni scholars then they would see that sunni scholars dont base decisions on one ayah and one hadith. they look at every hadith/ayah/statement made by sahabah etc related to one issue and use all of it to come to a conclusion. something that has occurred in this thread too!

With all due respect this is exactly the kind of prejudice I was alluding to! I don't want to turn this into a sideways debate but you raised the question of sahaba and I politely request you to be objective, step back from the rhetoric and approach the issue with open mind.

Shi'ah only have negative views on a tiny handful of sahaba. This is not because it's nice to be different or a way of standing out; some people close to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) went against his command (and Allahs' (SWT)) by denying the rights of the Ahlulbayt (as). These trangressions are recorded in your books of narration and tareekh as well as Shi'ah.

The one thing on which there isn't doubt is the elevated status of the Ahlulbayt (as); this is agreed by Shi'ah, Sunni and non-Muslims. So Shia'h follow only the best (correct) teachers after the Prophet (pbuh) based on Holy Quran, Sunnah and Hadeeth (your books contain reference to "Two Weighty Things" and the "Event of Ghadeer" as well as Shi'ah books).

We have no room in our hearts for usurpers and oppressors and nor should you. We don't take guidance from sons of idol-worshippers and nor should you. And we don't ever forget the majesty of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Glorious Ahlulbayt (as) and nor should you.

ALI

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Ahle Sunnah belief about the Sahaba is [Kullohum-Adool] they all were just, pious and good. How do you justify that according to Quran and Hadees??? How do you justify that according to reality and facts??? Battles did take place between the Sahaba. That's how far the difference went. So tell me what do you have to say about this???

as mentioned before, when you say 'reality and fact' you are doing so accoridng to your sources, which sunnis dont accept. We dont accept some of the things you say as a 'fact'.

justifying: I have mentioned some things in my first post. So to start with, I know you dont accept Bukhari, but the Sunnis do. and since you are asking me to 'justify my beliefs', I will do so using sunni sources. I think what I have written in my first post is sufficient. but some other things include the fact that there are hadith that say statements such as 'abu bakr fil jannah' or 'Umar fil Jannah' (meaning they are in paradise). in other narrations he said the person he loves the most is Abu bakr. He told Abu bakr to lead salah when he was unable to. In another hadith, a few people had some questions and the prophet sallalahoalihiwasallam was busy so he said come back later, they said what if we cant find you, he said then ask abu bakr. in another hadith he said follow abu bakr after me.

So how do I justify it according to Quran and hadith...Allah subhanahuwatala and his messenger sallalahoalihiwasallam are aware of who the munifiqoon (hypocrits) are. He is also aware of what will happen in the future, for example In one hadith, in a khuthba it was mentioned that a person in the audience would be in hell (and one person from that group eventually left Islam). So if the sahabah (e.g. Abu bakr/Umar (ra)) are as you say, then he wouldnt have said any of the above hadith (and others). Also they would have been exposed. some shias claim the reason they wernt exposed was due to protection, I reject that, when Umar became muslim (just before he accepted it), people were afraid of him. despite that the sahabah (I think Bilal (ra)) said if he is here to start a fight, we will kill him with his own sword. These people were not cowards that they are too afraid to tell some one they will be in hell.

Battles have taken place. its not as simple as 'fighting = lets do takfir on everyone'. maybe one is right and other is wrong, maybe both wrong, maybe both right. I dont know, havnt studied this. But I accept that all 3 are a possibility and I do not accept that fighting immediately means 1 is right and another is wrong, 1 is muslim other is kaafir.

As ali (ra) said “our brothers have rebelled against us; yet, they are not disbelievers, nor sinners, nor tyrants”

With all due respect this is exactly the kind of prejudice I was alluding to! I don't want to turn this into a sideways debate but you raised the question of sahaba and I politely request you to be objective, step back from the rhetoric and approach the issue with open mind.

Shi'ah only have negative views on a tiny handful of sahaba. This is not because it's nice to be different or a way of standing out; some people close to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) went against his command (and Allahs' (SWT)) by denying the rights of the Ahlulbayt (as). These trangressions are recorded in your books of narration and tareekh as well as Shi'ah.

The one thing on which there isn't doubt is the elevated status of the Ahlulbayt (as); this is agreed by Shi'ah, Sunni and non-Muslims. So Shia'h follow only the best (correct) teachers after the Prophet (pbuh) based on Holy Quran, Sunnah and Hadeeth (your books contain reference to "Two Weighty Things" and the "Event of Ghadeer" as well as Shi'ah books).

We have no room in our hearts for usurpers and oppressors and nor should you. We don't take guidance from sons of idol-worshippers and nor should you. And we don't ever forget the majesty of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Glorious Ahlulbayt (as) and nor should you.

ALI

Sorry ali, but I dont understand what you mean. sunnis dont accept these people as 'opressors' (see my previous post). our interpretation of these events is different to that of yours. while you say 'he threghtened to burn down house = oppressor' we say he had rasons behind it and the threat was not just because he was bored or something (again see previous posts).

we dont take guidance from idol worshippers.

they were sons of idol worshippers, is there even any evidence in favor of that? is tehre any evidence that one cannot accept the islam of the son of an idol worshipper? what have the parents got to do with it?

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as mentioned before, when you say 'reality and fact' you are doing so accoridng to your sources, which sunnis dont accept. We dont accept some of the things you say as a 'fact'.

justifying: I have mentioned some things in my first post. So to start with, I know you dont accept Bukhari, but the Sunnis do. and since you are asking me to 'justify my beliefs', I will do so using sunni sources. I think what I have written in my first post is sufficient. but some other things include the fact that there are hadith that say statements such as 'abu bakr fil jannah' or 'Umar fil Jannah' (meaning they are in paradise). in other narrations he said the person he loves the most is Abu bakr. He told Abu bakr to lead salah when he was unable to. In another hadith, a few people had some questions and the prophet sallalahoalihiwasallam was busy so he said come back later, they said what if we cant find you, he said then ask abu bakr. in another hadith he said follow abu bakr after me.

So how do I justify it according to Quran and hadith...Allah subhanahuwatala and his messenger sallalahoalihiwasallam are aware of who the munifiqoon (hypocrits) are. He is also aware of what will happen in the future, for example In one hadith, in a khuthba it was mentioned that a person in the audience would be in hell (and one person from that group eventually left Islam). So if the sahabah (e.g. Abu bakr/Umar (ra)) are as you say, then he wouldnt have said any of the above hadith (and others). Also they would have been exposed. some shias claim the reason they wernt exposed was due to protection, I reject that, when Umar became muslim (just before he accepted it), people were afraid of him. despite that the sahabah (I think Bilal (ra)) said if he is here to start a fight, we will kill him with his own sword. These people were not cowards that they are too afraid to tell some one they will be in hell.

Battles have taken place. its not as simple as 'fighting = lets do takfir on everyone'. maybe one is right and other is wrong, maybe both wrong, maybe both right. I dont know, havnt studied this. But I accept that all 3 are a possibility and I do not accept that fighting immediately means 1 is right and another is wrong, 1 is muslim other is kaafir.

As ali (ra) said “our brothers have rebelled against us; yet, they are not disbelievers, nor sinners, nor tyrants”

Sorry ali, but I dont understand what you mean. sunnis dont accept these people as 'opressors' (see my previous post). our interpretation of these events is different to that of yours. while you say 'he threghtened to burn down house = oppressor' we say he had rasons behind it and the threat was not just because he was bored or something (again see previous posts).

we dont take guidance from idol worshippers.

they were sons of idol worshippers, is there even any evidence in favor of that? is tehre any evidence that one cannot accept the islam of the son of an idol worshipper? what have the parents got to do with it?

You have made some interesting points. Lets go through them step by step. There are certain things which come dowm as reality and facts that both, Ahle Sunnah and Ahle Tashee, agree to. For example: The battle of Jamal did take place. This battle was between Hazrath Ali [ra] and Hazrath Aisha [ra] along with Hazrath Talah [ra] and Hazrath Zubair [ra]. It was Hazrath Ali [ra] V the three. Also the war of Safeen took place. This war consists of 72 battles which Hazrath Ali [ra] fought with Ameer Muavia [ra]. These are well known facts and are also a bitter side of reality. Now you are a Sunni. Your belief is that Hazrath Ali [ra] is/was the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims. Now this means who ever differed with Hazrath Ali [ra], minor or major difference, religious or political difference, general or personal difference, should automatically be wrong. This is what rightly guided means. How can you say " Maybe one is right and the other is wrong or maybe they are both wrong" It does not matter how it started off with. You can't cause a rebellion against the local government. It doesn't matter what the difference and how much. An Ahle Sunnah Mufti, Muhammad yaar Khan, was asked a question live on T.V. The question was that if the president of an Islamic state was corrupt, a sinner, unjust or unfair should the nation rise up against him??? What does the Shariah say about this??? What is the Islamic duty for the nation regarding this??? The Mufti said NO! One must not rise against the president and the current regime. WHY??? Because this is how Islamic powers, states become weak. For Urdu speakers, [kyukeh-Issi tarah- Islami-Saltanateh-Kamzor-Hothi-Hai]. The same Mufti was asked a question, combined, about the war of Safeen regarding Hazrath Ali [ra] and Ameer Muavia [ra] plus the battle of Jamal regarding Hazrath Ali [ra] and Hazrath Aisha [ra], Hazrath Talah [ra] and Hazrath Zubair [ra]. Now here the Mufti said " this was due to a political error and one must refrain from criticising anybody" [Yeh-Ijtihadi-Khata-Thi-Kisi-Ko-Bura-Nahi-Kehna-Chahiyeh]. See the difference in both statements. We will continue this.

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as mentioned before, when you say 'reality and fact' you are doing so accoridng to your sources, which sunnis dont accept. We dont accept some of the things you say as a 'fact'.

justifying: I have mentioned some things in my first post. So to start with, I know you dont accept Bukhari, but the Sunnis do. and since you are asking me to 'justify my beliefs', I will do so using sunni sources. I think what I have written in my first post is sufficient. but some other things include the fact that there are hadith that say statements such as 'abu bakr fil jannah' or 'Umar fil Jannah' (meaning they are in paradise). in other narrations he said the person he loves the most is Abu bakr. He told Abu bakr to lead salah when he was unable to. In another hadith, a few people had some questions and the prophet sallalahoalihiwasallam was busy so he said come back later, they said what if we cant find you, he said then ask abu bakr. in another hadith he said follow abu bakr after me.

So how do I justify it according to Quran and hadith...Allah subhanahuwatala and his messenger sallalahoalihiwasallam are aware of who the munifiqoon (hypocrits) are. He is also aware of what will happen in the future, for example In one hadith, in a khuthba it was mentioned that a person in the audience would be in hell (and one person from that group eventually left Islam). So if the sahabah (e.g. Abu bakr/Umar (ra)) are as you say, then he wouldnt have said any of the above hadith (and others). Also they would have been exposed. some shias claim the reason they wernt exposed was due to protection, I reject that, when Umar became muslim (just before he accepted it), people were afraid of him. despite that the sahabah (I think Bilal (ra)) said if he is here to start a fight, we will kill him with his own sword. These people were not cowards that they are too afraid to tell some one they will be in hell.

Battles have taken place. its not as simple as 'fighting = lets do takfir on everyone'. maybe one is right and other is wrong, maybe both wrong, maybe both right. I dont know, havnt studied this. But I accept that all 3 are a possibility and I do not accept that fighting immediately means 1 is right and another is wrong, 1 is muslim other is kaafir.

As ali (ra) said “our brothers have rebelled against us; yet, they are not disbelievers, nor sinners, nor tyrants”

Sorry ali, but I dont understand what you mean. sunnis dont accept these people as 'opressors' (see my previous post). our interpretation of these events is different to that of yours. while you say 'he threghtened to burn down house = oppressor' we say he had rasons behind it and the threat was not just because he was bored or something (again see previous posts).

we dont take guidance from idol worshippers.

they were sons of idol worshippers, is there even any evidence in favor of that? is tehre any evidence that one cannot accept the islam of the son of an idol worshipper? what have the parents got to do with it?

You said " the Sunnis accept Bukhari" What? All of it? Or just some of it? Only the bits and pieces that suit their belief??? Or do the Ahle Sunnah accept the entire Bukhari as they have labelled it (SEHIH)! You are going to justify your belief using Sunni sources??? I can justify the Shia belief using Sunni sources! How does that sound? You said " we do not accept some of the things which the Shia say are facts ". But the Shia bach their claims up through Sunni sources. What do you say about this??? You have mentioned Hadiths regarding Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]. Here are the Hadiths regarding the others, Anna-Wa-Aliyun-Min-Noorin-Wahid, Al-Aliyo-Maal-Haq-Wal-Haqo-Maal-Ali, Anna-Madinatul-ilm-Wa-Aliyun-Baboha. You tell me who do you love the most??? Your friends??? Your inlaws??? Or your own family??? You said " in another Hadith the Prophet [pbuh] said " follow Abu Bakar after me"???? If this was the case then why the gathering in Sakeefa??? Why the selection of Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] by the Ummah [Muhajir and Ansaar]???? The Hadith does not fit in with what happend or the events that took place. With all due respect if people were afraid of Hazrath Umar [ra] then why was he not one of the bravest warriors??? What was his performance in the battle field??? Why was he one of the people who left the Prophet [pbuh] stranded during the battle of Uhad and ran to save his life??? We wiil continue this.

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You said " the Sunnis accept Bukhari" What? All of it? Or just some of it? Only the bits and pieces that suit their belief??? Or do the Ahle Sunnah accept the entire Bukhari as they have labelled it (SEHIH)! You are going to justify your belief using Sunni sources??? I can justify the Shia belief using Sunni sources! How does that sound? You said " we do not accept some of the things which the Shia say are facts ". But the Shia bach their claims up through Sunni sources. What do you say about this??? You have mentioned Hadiths regarding Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]. Here are the Hadiths regarding the others, Anna-Wa-Aliyun-Min-Noorin-Wahid, Al-Aliyo-Maal-Haq-Wal-Haqo-Maal-Ali, Anna-Madinatul-ilm-Wa-Aliyun-Baboha. You tell me who do you love the most??? Your friends??? Your inlaws??? Or your own family??? You said " in another Hadith the Prophet [pbuh] said " follow Abu Bakar after me"???? If this was the case then why the gathering in Sakeefa??? Why the selection of Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] by the Ummah [Muhajir and Ansaar]???? The Hadith does not fit in with what happend or the events that took place. With all due respect if people were afraid of Hazrath Umar [ra] then why was he not one of the bravest warriors??? What was his performance in the battle field??? Why was he one of the people who left the Prophet [pbuh] stranded during the battle of Uhad and ran to save his life??? We wiil continue this.

Ameen! You ask many questions to a person who has exams in a couple of weeks! so iA ill keep this short and will make this my last post as much work needs to be done (although I did say before I wouldnt post anymore...didnt really work!)

War: again, something I will look up soon iA, As I am unaware of the reasons behind the war, I cannot say 'so and so was right or wrong'. however, a war doesnt mean we do takfir. Also considering the last statment of Ali [ra] that I posted ('our brothers are rebelling against us'), that would also need to taken into consideration when making a decision.

we accept all of bukhari. plz dont accuse us of random things.

you can justify shia beliefs with sunni sources. how does that sound to me..hmm..sounds great (dont really know what you wanted me to reply to that...)

ill just comment on a few points iA. apologies for the things I dont comment on. maybe cos i dont know about them.

I find a lot of shias 'justifying' their beliefs using sunni sources. when you say 'using sunni sources' youre not really using sunni sources, you are only using parts of them, i.e. picking one or two hadith and rejecting others. as you said in the begining, 'do you only accept hadith that suit your belief'. towards the end of your paragraph, you ended up rejecting a hadith. but to justify your beliefs purely based on sunni sources (i.e. accepting all of the sources), I dont think thats possible.

with regards to our differences, the hadith you quote in your favour, our interpretation of those hadith are different, so we accept the hadith (to answer your first question), but we dont think those hadith justify your beliefs. for example, regarding the anger of Fatimah [ra], someone in a previous post said that if you anger her then you anger the prophet sallallahoalihiwasallam regardless of the reason the anger was caused. we dont accept that. there are certain situations where if she got angry, the above wouldnt apply. for example if she were to get angry over something that goes against the laws of Allah subhanahuatala. if you put yourself in the shoes of Abu Bakr [ra], she asks you for inheritance, then suddenly you remember that you heard a hadith where it was said that prophets do not give inheritance. putting aside the argument of if he was telling the truth or lying etcetc. would should have been done. choices are anger her or go against the hadith. one might argue 'why didnt Fatimah [ra] accept the hadith'. Sahabah have differences of opinion all the time, many have had disagreemants and in a hadith it was stated that 'both are correct', even tho they say opposite things. hope that makes sense iA.

khalifah: long story short: sahabah had disagreemant about who should become khalifah. they were discussing and making suggestions. Umar [ra] said something along the lines of can any of you lead Abu Bakr in salah or do any of you consider yourself to be better than him (dont remember exact wording, but this is basically what he said). they remembered the status of Abu Bakr [ra] and rushed to give bayah to him. the fact that they forgot is not a surprise considering the situation at the time and due to the fact that many still had a sense of tribalism.

Ameen, you are rushing to reject hadith, I think its important to avoid rejecting hadith purely on the basis of it not making sense. maybe there are alternative explanations? same goes for the hadith of Fatimah [ra], some shias believe this hadith 'proves' sunnis wrong. they believe this becuase they think there is one and only one possible interpretation to it, as a result they claim sunnis 'reject' hadith to 'suit their beliefs' . Imagine is the prophet sallallahoalayhiwasallam said something, and it ended up being rejected becuase people "thought" there was a contradiction when in fact there wasnt one, their interpretation was just mistaken.

side note: I know I havnt put references for any hadith I mentioned. To be honest, It takes a lot of time searching for exact references. My references for the hadith I quote are the sunni scholars! so if you want a more accurate reference (i.e. a book etc), feel free to ask them.

and I said this would be a short post..... In my defence...you asked me like 50 questions per post!

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(bismillah)

We don't hate all of the Companions of Rasulullah (pbuh) nor do we say they're all liars or what not. For example:

[ 33615 ] 2 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن عثمان ابن عيسى ، عن أبي أيوب الخرّاز ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : قلت له : ما بال أقوام يروون عن فلان وفلان ، عن رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) لا يتهمون بالكذب ، فيجيء منكم خلافه ؟ فقال : إن الحديث ينسخ كما ينسخ ، القرآن .

2 – And from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Uthman b. `Isa from Abu Ayyub al-Kharraz from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: What is the state of the groups that narrate from so-and-so and so-and-so, from the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, who are not accused of lying, but there comes from you its opposite? So he said: Verily the hadith is abrogated as the Quran is abrogated.

[ 33616 ] 3 ـ وعن عليّ بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي نجران ، عن عاصم بن حميد ، عن منصور بن حازم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : قلت : أخبرني عن أصحاب محمد صدقوا على محمد ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ، أم كذبوا ؟ قال : بل صدقوا ، قلت : فما بالهم اختلفوا ؟ قال : إن الرجل كان يأتي رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ، فيسأله المسألة ، فيجيبه فيها بالجواب ، ثم يجيئه بعد ذلك ما ينسخ ذلك الجواب ، فنسخت الاحاديث بعضها بعضا .

3 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Najran from `Asim b. Humayd from Mansur b. Hazim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: I said: Inform me about the companions of Muhammad, did they tell the truth upon Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله or did they lie? He said: Rather, they told the truth. I said: So what is their state (wherein) they differed? He said: Verily the man would come to the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and asked him a question, so he would respond to him it with the response. Then there would come to him after that what abrogated that response. So the ahadith abrogated one another.

[ 33617 ] 4 ـ وعنه ، عن محمد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن مهزم ، وعن بعض أصحابنا ، عن محمد بن علي ، عن محمد بن إسحاق الكاهلي ، وعن أبي علي الاشعري ، عن الحسن بن علي الكوفي ، عن العباس بن عامر ، عن ربيع بن محمد جميعا ، عن مهزم الأسدي ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : أنا المدينة ، وعلي الباب ، وكذب من زعم أنه يدخل المدينة إلا من قبل الباب .

4 – And from him from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Mahzam, and from one of our companions from Muhammad b. `Ali from Muhammad b. Ishaq al-Kahili, and from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-Kufi from al-`Abbas b. `Amir from Rabi` b. Muhammmad, all from Mahzam al-Asadi from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: I am the city, and `Ali is the gate. Whoever claims that he enters the city but by the gate has lied.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/judgement/acting-on-prophetic-ahadith-that-have-come-from-other-than-the-imams

So to us, the Sahaba were just regular people in regards to the religion. They did not have some profound or extended understanding of the religion. So we would look at your narrations that conflict with our narrations as the following: fabricated, misunderstood/out of context, abrogated.

One example of an abrogated hadith that Sunnis do not believe is abrogated is the wiping on the Khuffayn.

6 - And from him from Hammad from Hariz from Zurara from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: I heard him saying: `Umar b. al-Khattab gathered together the companions of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and amongst them was `Ali عليه السلام. So he said: What do you (pl.) say about wiping upon the khuffayn? So al-Mughira b. Shu`ba got up and said: I saw the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله wiping upon the khuffayn. So `Ali عليه السلام said: Before al-Ma’ida or after it? So he said: I don’t know. So `Ali عليه السلام said: The Book preceded the khuffayn. al-Ma’ida was only revealed prior to him passing away by two or three months.

20 – Muhammad b. Muhammad b. an-Nu`man al-Mufid in al-Irshad from Mukhawwal b. Ibrahim from Qays b. ar-Rabi`. He said: I asked Abu Ishaq about wiping – meaning wiping upon the khuffayn. So he said: I noticed the people wiping, until I met a man from the Banu Hashim whose like I had not seen. He is called Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn عليه السلام. So I asked him about the wiping, and he prohibited me from it. And he said: `Ali Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام did not use to wipe [upon the khuffayn – not in the masdar]. And he would say: The Book preceded the wiping upon the khuffayn.

He said: So I have not wiped since he prohibited me from it.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/tahara/wudu/impermissibility-of-wiping-upon-the-khuffayn

It should be noted that in the Musannafs (2 proto-Sunni collections) that were some of the earliest collections narrate a narration relatively the same from Imam al-Baqir عليه السلام stating that the act of wiping on the khuffayn is abrogated and invalid.

We do, however, believe certain companions and narrators to be untrustworthy liars.

From al-Shaykh al-Saduq's رحمه الله al-Khisaal:

حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن إسحاق الطالقاني رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبد العزيز بن يحيى قال: حدثني محمد بن زكريا قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن عمارة، عن أبيه قال: سمعت جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام يقول: ثلاثة كانوا يكذبون على رسول الله أبو هريرة، وأنس بن مالك، وامرأة.

Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Ishaq at-Taliqani, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated to us. He said: `Abd al-`Aziz b. Yahya narrated to us. He said: Muhammad b. Zakariyya narrated to me. He said: Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ammara narrated to us from his father. He said: I heard Ja`far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام saying: Three would lie against the Messenger of Allah: Abu Huraya and Anas b. Malik and a woman.

The Companions are like normal narrators to us. Some are liars and fabricators, some were loyal, pious mu'mineen, and many are in between.

في أمان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam
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Your absolutely right! but your missing one point here. It does not matter if it is Muslim v non Muslim, Sunni v Shia or any other example. Anger or no anger. One thing is for sure! One is RIGHT and the other is WRONG!!! Both can't be right in any sort of argument. You said "We Sunnis also love a group of people that you Shias hate" Did this ever cross your mind that Which is that group and why are they hated??? We love the Ahlul-Baith??? Really??? Do you know what love is about??? When you love someone that means there friend is your friend and their enemy is your enemy. Their opposition is your opposition and so on. What kind of love do you have for the Ahlul-Baith??? Just words only from the tongue??? or is it from the heart backed with, oppose who opposed them, hate who hated them, at war with who was at war with them, against who was against them.

Salam

I disagree with your statement. I believe that Sunnis love the Ahlul bayt more then us shia think. Let me explain why. Does loving the Ahlul Bayt mean Doing maatam for hours, or celebrating their birthdays, or sending salam to them during a majalis?

NO

Loving the Ahlul bayt = Loving the Prophet = Loving God.

Now Sunnis love the Ahlul bayt .........why????

They are first to prayers, they follow all the pillars quite thorougly.

So to accuse them of not loving the Ahulul Bayt is quite a ignorent statement...........

Edited by asharp
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(bismillah)

Salam

I disagree with your statement. I believe that Sunnis love the Ahlul bayt more then us shia think. Let me explain why. Does loving the Ahlul Bayt mean Doing maatam for hours, or celebrating their birthdays, or sending salam to them during a majalis?

NO

Loving the Ahlul bayt = Loving the Prophet = Loving God.

Now Sunnis love the Ahlul bayt .........why????

They are first to prayers, they follow all the pillars quite thorougly.

So to accuse them of not loving the Ahulul Bayt is quite a ignorent statement...........

I disagree - mostly because this is very anecdotal evidence. You're thinking of the religious Sunnis and comparing them to the not-so-religious Imamis. We follow our pillars very thoroughly, too. And it is my experience (and that of my Sunni friends) that there are more religious Shi`ahs than religious Sunnis. Not going to say they love Ahlulbayt (as) - just that there is a defect in their love. Yes, this is a very biased Imami view, but who cares. I believe it to be the truth.

Ýí ÃãÇä Çááå

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From al-Shaykh al-Saduq's رحمه الله al-Khisaal:

حدثنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن إسحاق الطالقاني رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا عبد العزيز بن يحيى قال: حدثني محمد بن زكريا قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن عمارة، عن أبيه قال: سمعت جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام يقول: ثلاثة كانوا يكذبون على رسول الله أبو هريرة، وأنس بن مالك، وامرأة.

Muhammad b. Ibrahim b. Ishaq at-Taliqani, may Allah be pleased with him, narrated to us. He said: `Abd al-`Aziz b. Yahya narrated to us. He said: Muhammad b. Zakariyya narrated to me. He said: Ja`far b. Muhammad b. `Ammara narrated to us from his father. He said: I heard Ja`far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام saying: Three would lie against the Messenger of Allah: Abu Huraya and Anas b. Malik and a woman.

That particular woman?

Edited by Something Given
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqHZTrTyf44&feature=related

Very Wise words.

May Allah rectify there condition.

Paradise belongs to Prophet (pbuh) and his Ahlebaith (as).

Fatima (as) is leader of woman of Paradise. Hasan and Hussain (as) are the leaders of men in paradise. Imam Ali (as) distributes the heaven and Hell. Are these all sayings not of Prophet (pbuh)?

And the fake sahaba will be turned away from the heaven towards hell did you read your Sahih?

Now decide who is on the right path the Ahlebaith (as) or the fake sahaba. see my signature.

Edited by Mehek
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Paradise belongs to Allah and who he wills.

Fatima (as) is leader of woman of Paradise. Hasan and Hussain (as) are the leaders of youth in paradise. Allah grants and distributes heaven and Hell to those deserving of them? Are these all sayings not of Prophet (pbuh) ?

And the innovators will be turned away from the heaven towards hell did you read your Sahih?

^ I just corrected your post with some Minor Corrections

Furthermore, you did not respond to my post, you did not give me Qur'an or Sunnah all you did was give me rhetoric and the rhetoric which you gave me was also plagued with error.

May Allah Rectify your condition. InshAllah.

Edited by Glow
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