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In the Name of God بسم الله

Position Of The Sahabah

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  • Advanced Member

^ I just corrected your post with some Minor Corrections

Furthermore, you did not respond to my post, you did not give me Qur'an or Sunnah all you did was give me rhetoric and the rhetoric which you gave me was also plagued with error.

May Allah Rectify your condition. InshAllah.

Your half quotes form the Wahabi reading the Quran cannot deceive. Did you even read the full Sura of 48 before quoting 48.18 and othe ayahs.

The same sura also says this

[shakir 48:10] Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands. Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward.

So many sahaba did not listen to prophet (pbuh) so many times example running onto mountains (umar running) when Prophet (pbuh) was in danger or disobeying him when he wanted to write his will (umar preventing prophet pen and paper).

and there are many ayahs in Quran which show the true face of Sahaba hypocrites.

^ I just corrected your post with some Minor Corrections

the rhetoric which you gave me was also plagued with error.

May Allah Rectify your condition. InshAllah.

What error can you show me?

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i thought the door that was not closed or sealed was that of ImaÉ Ali , even in your books !

translate them to English :

ÍÏíË ÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí :

ÃÎÑÌ ÇáÊÑãÐí ÈÓäÏå Úä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ : « Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÃãÑ ÈÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí » (47).

æÃÎÑÌ Úä ÃÈí ÓÚíÏ ÞÇá : « ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã áÚáí : íÇ Úáí ¡ áÇ íÍá áÃÍÏ Ãä íÌäÈ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÓÌÏ ÛíÑí æÛíÑß . ÞÇá Úáí Èä ÇáãäÐÑ : ÞáÊ áÖÑÇÑ Èä ÕÑÏ : ãÇ ãÚäì åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË ¿ ÞÇá : áÇ íÍá áÃÍÏ íÓÊØÑÞå ÌäÈÇ ÛíÑí æÛíÑß » (48).

æÃÎÑÌ ÃÍãÏ ÈÓäÏå Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇáÑÞíã ÇáßäÇäí ¡ ÞÇá : « ÎÑÌäÇ Åáì ÇáãÏíäÉ Òãä ÇáÌãá ¡ ÝáÞíäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ãÇáß ÈåÇ ÝÞÇá : ÃãÑ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÈÓÏ ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÇáÔÇÑÚÉ Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ æÊÑß ÈÇÈ Úáí » (49) .

æÃÎÑÌå ÃÍãÏ ßÐáß ÈÃÓÇäíÏ ãÎÊáÝÉ Úä ÛíÑ æÇÍÏ ãä ÇáÕÍÇÈÉ (50) .

____________

(47) ÕÍíÍ ÇáÊÑãÐí 2 / 301 .

(48) ÕÍíÍ ÇáÊÑãÐí 2 / 300 .

(49) ãÓäÏ ÃÍãÏ 1 / 175 .

(50) ÑÇÌÚ ÇáãÓäÏ 1 / 175 ¡ 330 ¡ æ 2 / 26

æÃÎÑÌ ÇáÍÇßã ÈÓäÏå Úä ÒíÏ Èä ÃÑÞã ÞÇá : « ßÇäÊ áäÝÑ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã ÃÈæÇÈ ÔÇÑÚÉ Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ . ÝÞÇá íæãÇ : ÓÏæÇ åÐå ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí .

ÞÇá : ÝÊßáã Ýí Ðáß ÇáäÇÓ ¡ ÝÞÇã ÑÓæá Çááå ÝÍãÏ Çááå æÃËäì Úáíå Ëã ÞÇá : ÃãÇ ÈÚÏ ¡ ÝÅäí ÃãÑÊ ÈÓÏ åÐå ÇáÃÈæÇÈ ÛíÑ ÈÇÈ Úáí ÝÞÇá Ýíå ÞÇÆáßã ¡ æÇááå ãÇ ÓÏÏÊ ÔíÆÇ æáÇ ÝÊÍÊå ¡ æáßä ÃãÑÊ ÈÔíÁ ÝÇÊÈÚÊå .

åÐÇ ÍÏíË ÕÍíÍ ÇáÅÓäÇÏ » (51) .

æÃÎÑÌ ÈÓäÏå Úä ÃÈí åÑíÑÉ ÞÇá : « ÞÇá ÚãÑ Èä ÇáÎØÇÈ : áÞÏ ÃÚØí Úáí ÇÈä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ ËáÇË ÎÕÇá áÆä Êßæä áí ÎÕáÉ ãäåÇ ÃÍÈ Åáí ãä Ãä ÃÚØì ÍãÑ ÇáäÚã . Þíá : æãÇ åä íÇ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ¿ ÞÇá : ÊÒæÌå ÝÇØãÉ ÈäÊ ÑÓæá Çááå ¡ æÓßäÇå ÇáãÓÌÏ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå íÍá áå Ýíå ãÇ íÍá áå ¡ æÇáÑÇíÉ íæã ÎíÈÑ .

åÐÇ ÍÏíË ÕÍíÍ ÇáÅÓäÇÏ » (52) .

æÃÎÑÌ ÇáäÓÇÆí ÈÓäÏå Úä ÇáÍÇÑË Èä ãÇáß ÞÇá : « ÃÊíÊ ãßÉ ÝáÞíÊ ÓÚÏ ÇÈä ÃÈí æÞÇÕ ÝÞáÊ áå : ÓãÚÊ áÚáí ãäÞÈÉ ¿ ÞÇá : ßäÇ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ ÝÑæì ÝíäÇ áÓÏå áíÎÑÌ ãä Ýí ÇáãÓÌÏ ÅáÇ Âá ÑÓæá Çááå æÂá Úáí . ÞÇá : ÝÎÑÌäÇ ¡ ÝáãÇ ÃÕÈÍ ÃÊÇå Úãå ÝÞÇá : íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÃÎÑÌÊ ÃÕÍÇÈß æÃÚãÇãß æÃÓßäÊ åÐÇ ÇáÛáÇã ¿ ! ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå ( æÂáå ) æÓáã : ãÇ ÃäÇ ÃãÑÊ ÈÅÎÑÇÌßã æáÇ ÈÅÓßÇä åÐÇ ÇáÛáÇã . Åä Çááå åæ ÃãÑ Èå .

ÞÇá ÇáäÓÇÆí : ÞÇá ÝØÑ : Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÔÑíß ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÃÑÞã ¡ Úä ÓÚÏ : Åä ÇáÚÈÇÓ ÃÊì ÇáäÈí ÝÞÇá : ÓÏÏÊ ÃÈæÇÈäÇ ÅáÇ ÈÇÈ Úáí ¿ ! ÝÞÇá : ãÇ ÃäÇ ÝÊÍÊåÇ æáÇ ÃäÇ ÓÏÏÊåÇ » (53) .

____________

(51) ÇáãÓÊÏÑß Úá ÇáÕÍíÍíä 3 / 125 .

(52) ÇáãÓÊÏÑß Úá ÇáÕÍíÍíä 3 / 125 .

(53) ÎÕÇÆÕ Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ : 13 .

--------------------------------------------------

so whos to beive ? the Hadith that say dont close Abu Bakr door or teh one that say dont close Imam Ali's door ?

according to Termithi , the abu bakr hadith is ghareeb-strange-

and in some places Marfoo3

yes it was mentioned in Bukhari and then according to you it is Sahih but i am not obliged to take Bikhari as Sahih brother

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Your half quotes form the Wahabi reading the Quran cannot deceive. Did you even read the full Sura of 48 before quoting 48.18 and othe ayahs.

The same sura also says this

[shakir 48:10] Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands. Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward.

So many sahaba did not listen to prophet (pbuh) so many times example running onto mountains (umar running) when Prophet (pbuh) was in danger or disobeying him when he wanted to write his will (umar preventing prophet pen and paper).

and there are many ayahs in Quran which show the true face of Sahaba hypocrites.

What error can you show me?

You need to stop saying what you think the Ayah means and who you think it refers to and go and read an authentic tafseer. Thats all I am going to say on that issue. It's a plague on these forums.

Furthermore, it shows you know very little to nothing about authentic Islam due to the fact you bring up this silly point of the companions running away.

Allah FORGAVE the Sahabah for running away. If Allah forgave them, aren't you ready to forgive them?

As for the errors, well, I have made corrections to your mistakes so you can see the discrepancy between my quote and your original post.

Edited by Glow
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  • Advanced Member

Allah FORGAVE the Sahabah for running away. If Allah forgave them, aren't you ready to forgive them?

Not for repeated running away. Umar never killed one enemy but kept running away in Ohud, Hunnain etc.

Name one enemy of Prophet (pbuh) umar killed in war but instead encouraged others to run away thinking that it was will of Allah to run like a coward leaving the Prophet (pbuh) life in danger.

Then all of a sudden Umar appears as the leader of Muslims after Prophet (pbuh) death and starts attacking other countries and conqures in the name of Islam, but he himself never participates but sends the army. Strange.

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Allah Ta'ala mentioned in the quran in surah taubah ayat 100,that Allah is pleased with the sahaba(ra). Allah did not mention that he is pleased with Ali or Fatimah, but rather Allah mentioned 'AS SABIQOONAL AWWALOON MINAL MUHAAJIREEN WAL ANSAAR.'

Abu Bakr(ra) has the highest status among all the sahaba(ra). Numerous hadeeth bare testimony to this fact. Just to quote one, Nabi(saw) said: "THE FIRST OF MY UMMAH TO ENTER JANNAH WILL BE ABU BAKR(RA)."

One thing has to be understood very well that the two most authentic books on hadeeth are BUKHARI AND MUSLIM.

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Allah Ta'ala mentioned in the quran in surah taubah ayat 100,that Allah is pleased with the sahaba(ra). Allah did not mention that he is pleased with Ali or Fatimah, but rather Allah mentioned 'AS SABIQOONAL AWWALOON MINAL MUHAAJIREEN WAL ANSAAR.'

Abu Bakr(ra) has the highest status among all the sahaba(ra). Numerous hadeeth bare testimony to this fact. Just to quote one, Nabi(saw) said: "THE FIRST OF MY UMMAH TO ENTER JANNAH WILL BE ABU BAKR(RA)."

One thing has to be understood very well that the two most authentic books on hadeeth are BUKHARI AND MUSLIM.

I think you need not only the tafsir of that ayah but also the context. In general terms, who does that ayah include? All sahaba?

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Not for repeated running away. Umar never killed one enemy but kept running away in Ohud, Hunnain etc.

Name one enemy of Prophet (pbuh) umar killed in war but instead encouraged others to run away thinking that it was will of Allah to run like a coward leaving the Prophet (pbuh) life in danger.

Then all of a sudden Umar appears as the leader of Muslims after Prophet (pbuh) death and starts attacking other countries and conqures in the name of Islam, but he himself never participates but sends the army. Strange.

with regards to forgiving...watch 26min - 29min of the following. (its only 3 min....feel free to watch the rest if you want...it will prob explain some of your questions)

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(bismillah)

I disagree - mostly because this is very anecdotal evidence. You're thinking of the religious Sunnis and comparing them to the not-so-religious Imamis. We follow our pillars very thoroughly, too. And it is my experience (and that of my Sunni friends) that there are more religious Shi`ahs than religious Sunnis. Not going to say they love Ahlulbayt (as) - just that there is a defect in their love. Yes, this is a very biased Imami view, but who cares. I believe it to be the truth.

Ýí ÃãÇä Çááå

you accuse him of presenting subjective evidence then you go and do the same....

my personal experience in the opposite. personal experience is not an evidence for or against anything.

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Bro, if you're trying to convince Shias, then don't use Sunni books to make your point. They are meaningless to us, just like ours are to you.

I JUST WANT TO SHOW A BOOK WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH MUSLIMS AND SHIAS THAT IS QURAN THE HOLLY QURAN MENTION ONLY TWO SAHABA NAMES ONE IS IHAZRAT ZAID R A AND OTHER IS THE FREIND OF CAVE(ABU BAKAR RA) AND THAT BOTH ARE YOUR THEN HOW YOU ARE SAYING YOUR SELF MUSLIM

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I JUST WANT TO SHOW A BOOK WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH MUSLIMS AND SHIAS THAT IS QURAN THE HOLLY QURAN MENTION ONLY TWO SAHABA NAMES ONE IS IHAZRAT ZAID R A AND OTHER IS THE FREIND OF CAVE(ABU BAKAR RA) AND THAT BOTH ARE YOUR THEN HOW YOU ARE SAYING YOUR SELF MUSLIM

And abu jahl.

Go read the verse again and you would not find praise in there

Edited by Righteous
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I JUST WANT TO SHOW A BOOK WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE TO BOTH MUSLIMS AND SHIAS THAT IS QURAN THE HOLLY QURAN MENTION ONLY TWO SAHABA NAMES ONE IS IHAZRAT ZAID R A AND OTHER IS THE FREIND OF CAVE(ABU BAKAR RA) AND THAT BOTH ARE YOUR THEN HOW YOU ARE SAYING YOUR SELF MUSLIM

Abu Bakr's name is not mentioned in the Quran.

And we are the onces accused of having a "different" Quran..

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@Glow: You no doubt feel quite self-righteous correcting other peoples posts in accordance with your own idea of what it should read but before doing so maybe you should make yourself more familiar with what your famous scholars views are?

One of the students of Ibn Hanbal narrates: we were in the presence of Ahmad bin Hanbal when a person asked O Aba ‘Abdillah! What is your opinion about the hadith which says that (Imam) ‘Ali stated “I am the distributor of Hell"?

Ibn Hanbal replied 'From what aspect do you doubt its credence? Has it not been related that the Prophet told (Imam) ‘Ali “None will love you but the faithful believer and none will hate you but the hypocrite?”'

We said 'Yes'. He asked 'Where is the place of the faithful believer'? 'In Paradise' we answered.

He asked 'Where is the place of the hypocrite'? 'In Hell' we replied.

He said 'Ali is thus the distributor of Hell.'

Abu al-Husayn Muhammad bin Abi Ya‘la Tabaqat al-Hanabilah volume 1 page 320 edited by Muhammad Hamid al-Faqi Cairo Egypt 1952

@Abdallahi: Sunni books written by sunni scholars under guidance of sunni rulers then deemed 'saheeh' by other sunnis for the benefit of making sunni leaders look good in the eyes of sunni followers carry limited sway with Shia of Ali (as) - just so you understand this.

Also, please note in numerous places in Holy Quran Allah (swt) gave reference (agreed by sunni & shia) to the majesty and purity Ali, Fatima Hassan & Hussain (as) - ones that come to mind immediately are ayah Mubahila and ayah Tatheer. If you don't know about these ayah I suggest you go read/study them, who they refer to and in what context they were revealed.

@Abu Bakar: I was going to go easy on you but noticed you're SHOUTING. Firstly, Abu Bakr is not mentioned by name in the Holy Quran. Secondly, Shaitan is mentioned by name in the Holy Quran.

If your criteria for piety and truthfulness is a namedrop in the Holiest Book then I think you could be in for a rude awakening...

ALI

Edited by Kismet110
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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

Ameen! You ask many questions to a person who has exams in a couple of weeks! so iA ill keep this short and will make this my last post as much work needs to be done (although I did say before I wouldnt post anymore...didnt really work!)

War: again, something I will look up soon iA, As I am unaware of the reasons behind the war, I cannot say 'so and so was right or wrong'. however, a war doesnt mean we do takfir. Also considering the last statment of Ali [ra] that I posted ('our brothers are rebelling against us'), that would also need to taken into consideration when making a decision.

we accept all of bukhari. plz dont accuse us of random things.

you can justify shia beliefs with sunni sources. how does that sound to me..hmm..sounds great (dont really know what you wanted me to reply to that...)

ill just comment on a few points iA. apologies for the things I dont comment on. maybe cos i dont know about them.

I find a lot of shias 'justifying' their beliefs using sunni sources. when you say 'using sunni sources' youre not really using sunni sources, you are only using parts of them, i.e. picking one or two hadith and rejecting others. as you said in the begining, 'do you only accept hadith that suit your belief'. towards the end of your paragraph, you ended up rejecting a hadith. but to justify your beliefs purely based on sunni sources (i.e. accepting all of the sources), I dont think thats possible.

with regards to our differences, the hadith you quote in your favour, our interpretation of those hadith are different, so we accept the hadith (to answer your first question), but we dont think those hadith justify your beliefs. for example, regarding the anger of Fatimah [ra], someone in a previous post said that if you anger her then you anger the prophet sallallahoalihiwasallam regardless of the reason the anger was caused. we dont accept that. there are certain situations where if she got angry, the above wouldnt apply. for example if she were to get angry over something that goes against the laws of Allah subhanahuatala. if you put yourself in the shoes of Abu Bakr [ra], she asks you for inheritance, then suddenly you remember that you heard a hadith where it was said that prophets do not give inheritance. putting aside the argument of if he was telling the truth or lying etcetc. would should have been done. choices are anger her or go against the hadith. one might argue 'why didnt Fatimah [ra] accept the hadith'. Sahabah have differences of opinion all the time, many have had disagreemants and in a hadith it was stated that 'both are correct', even tho they say opposite things. hope that makes sense iA.

khalifah: long story short: sahabah had disagreemant about who should become khalifah. they were discussing and making suggestions. Umar [ra] said something along the lines of can any of you lead Abu Bakr in salah or do any of you consider yourself to be better than him (dont remember exact wording, but this is basically what he said). they remembered the status of Abu Bakr [ra] and rushed to give bayah to him. the fact that they forgot is not a surprise considering the situation at the time and due to the fact that many still had a sense of tribalism.

Ameen, you are rushing to reject hadith, I think its important to avoid rejecting hadith purely on the basis of it not making sense. maybe there are alternative explanations? same goes for the hadith of Fatimah [ra], some shias believe this hadith 'proves' sunnis wrong. they believe this becuase they think there is one and only one possible interpretation to it, as a result they claim sunnis 'reject' hadith to 'suit their beliefs' . Imagine is the prophet sallallahoalayhiwasallam said something, and it ended up being rejected becuase people "thought" there was a contradiction when in fact there wasnt one, their interpretation was just mistaken.

side note: I know I havnt put references for any hadith I mentioned. To be honest, It takes a lot of time searching for exact references. My references for the hadith I quote are the sunni scholars! so if you want a more accurate reference (i.e. a book etc), feel free to ask them.

and I said this would be a short post..... In my defence...you asked me like 50 questions per post!

Firstly it's pritty obvious that when a difference come so far that WAR breaks out then you have a serious situation. One thing is for sure that at this level both parties can't be right. Secondly this vital piece of information must not be ignored that on one side you have the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslim empire or Islamic state. On the other a REBEL! I advise you to pick up the dictionary and check the meanings of the following two: 1, Rebellion, meaning [organised opposition to the government or other recognised authority involving the use of violence]. 2, Rebel, meaning [to fight against the ruling power]. Also you quoted Hazrath Ali's [ra] last statement " our brothers are rebelling against us". The word REBELLING has been used. Thirdly Hazrath Ali [ra] made it clear that he was not responsible for the killing of Hazrath Usmaan [ra] and certainly did not harbour any killers. Otherwise would he be known as the fourth RIGHTLY GUIDED KHALIF of the Muslims???? Now this is enough to figure out who was seriously right and who was seriously wrong. Most of the Shia believes and complaints are justified within the Ahle Sunnah authentic books. This is what I mean. Which Hadith did I end up rejecting??? There is one particular point I would like to make. Hazrath Fatimah Zahra [ra] [the great lady] either you lack in knowledge and information about her or you are just absolutely insane. Here we have a lady who is said, not by her father but by the Prophet [pbuh] as [syedatun-Nisail-Alameen] meaning the leader of all women in paradise. Here we have a lady from who's house Islam blossomed. Here we have a lady who is blessed by Ayath-e-Tatheer and Ayath-e-Mubahila and also was part of the incident of the sheet and the incident of Mubahila. This is what you say about her "if she were to get angry over something that goes against the laws of Allah"???? Is this what you think of her???? She was not familiar with the laws of Allah but Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] was???? The woman from who's house Islam blossomed and spread was not familiar with the laws of Allah but the stranger who became a Muslim in his early fourties was??? With all due respect towards both parties just discussing the facts here. She asked Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] for inheritance???? First of all inheritance is a family issue not a state issue. It's personal not general that you are asked to come to court [Darbar], what ever you want to call it, to have it discussed. Secondly did she ask for inheritance??? Or was the garden of Fadak given to her by her father during his life time and after his death she was asked to provide witnesses of how she obtained it??? Either way why was she asked to come to the [Darbar] to discuss this when this was a family issue and could have been dealt with behind closed doors [Pardah]???? This is humiliation and insult towards the great lady. You said "why did Fatimah accept the Hadith" Why??? Was she not familiar with the Hadith herself in the first place??? Ok! May be she was a lady that's why you undermine her but what about Hazrath Ali [ra], her husband and the door to the city of knowledge???? Don't you think she would have discussed the matter of inheritance with him before going to Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra]???? You know what??? Just because Hazrath Abu Bakar [ra] got it seriously wrong all this controversy has just been created to save his damaged reputation. It is so hard to say that, with all due respect from the bottom of my heart for being a Sahabi, the man got it wrong. Infact RUBBISH is being thrown at the couple, Hazrath Ali [ra] and Hazrath Fatimah [ra] who were of a higher status. just to save the first Khalifs reputation and character. This is my opinion and it is open for discussion. I shall leave it for now.

Edited by Ameen
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