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Pascal

Why Can't Muslim Women Marry People Of The Book?

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Hey guys, this question has always been something that has puzzled me and i always wondered the answer, now that i found this place i think it is a good time to ask.

I understand that Muslim men can marry people of the book (christians, jews). I also know that it is frowned apon if they are outside a Muslim majority country but it is still allowed for them to marry Christians and Jews in certain circumstances.

As an outsider, it seems rather strange to me that the converse isn't true. I thought surely it'd be the same for women as well, Muslim women could marry people of the book under the same circumstances men could but i found this to not be the case.

I googled online to find some answers but most of the answers somehow implied women were less equal, less powerful or would have less control over their children than a man would in the relationship. I believe in equality very much and those answers didn't do it for me at all.

So, this is why i ask here, why can not muslim women marry people of the book, whilst muslim men can?

Just a couple things i'd like to point out before you give your response:

*I will not accept any answer that somehow implies women are less equal or powerful in a relationship than men. There may of been a time when this was true before the advent of womens rights but the Qu'ran and Islam is meant to be a book and religion for all time. So, any answers that somehow imply a man will have more sway over the religion his children decide to follow than his mother is unacceptable to me, also anything that says he can somehow frighten the woman or prevent her from following her faith. That might happen on the odd occasion but in the modern west where i live it would be a rarity.

It just seems strange to me that men can do this and women can't...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*The evidence/sources/scriptures/reasoning i prefer you to use, in order of preference:

*Two most preffered*

1) Q'uran - Obviously this being an islamic problem, this should of course be the number one source. Also, every muslim sect also believes in the quran and theres no chance of it being falsified like the hadiths, so i hope you can understand why i prefer this the most.

2) Logic - I'm an agnostic, whenever someone has a question about what i believe, i don't have any faith or holy book to back it up on. I just present my arguments or what i believe using logic and reasoning.

*Hadiths are OK*

3) Hadiths - I'd prefer it if you didn't use any hadiths in your answer but i understand this is a Shi'a site and hadiths are important. Try draw them for the more reliable books (i don't know the word for this sorry).

*Try not to use these..*

4) I'd really prefer it if you guys didn't use the rulings of modern islamic scholars, because they are human and falible. Also, sometimes opinions can differ wildy between scholars. If you have to use someone that is a recent or modern scholar i'd prefer if they were a westerner. I don't really want anyone to just link me to a website with a pre-written ruling on it. These are the same rulings that didn't make sense to me. I want you guys to think about it and see what you have to say :) .

Thanks for helping to answer my question,

-kingpomba

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Small Correction:

imply a man will have more sway over the religion his children decide to follow than his mother is unacceptable to me,

I meant to say "His wife"

Looking forward to your answers,

-kingpomba

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I hope you can accept viewpoints from Sunnis as well.

This is what explained by my teacher, a Shafi'i Sunni.

First of all, men and women in Islam are just equal.

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire. Our Lord, indeed whoever You admit to the Fire - You have disgraced him, and for the wrongdoers there are no helpers. Our Lord, indeed we have heard a caller calling to faith, [saying], 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord, so forgive us our sins and remove from us our misdeeds and cause us to die with the righteous. Our Lord, and grant us what You promised us through Your messengers and do not disgrace us on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed, You do not fail in [Your] promise." And their Lord responded to them, "Never will I allow to be lost the work of [any] worker among you, whether male or female; you are of one another. So those who emigrated or were evicted from their homes or were harmed in My cause or fought or were killed - I will surely remove from them their misdeeds, and I will surely admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow as reward from Allah , and Allah has with Him the best reward." (Ali Imran chapter 3, verses 190-196).

Second of all, Muslims status are higher compared to the Ahlul Kitab (People of The Book).

So, a Muslim man can marry to a Muslim woman, to a Christian woman and to a Jewish woman.

But as for a Muslim woman, she can only marry to a Muslim man as they have the same status.

For example, say, do you think that a female boss would marry to her male employer? I don't think so, because the female boss has a higher status compared to the male employer.

Same goes to the marriage between a Muslim woman and a male Ahlul Kitab.

Muslim women are not allowed to marry to a male Ahlul Kitab because Muslim women have a higher status compared to male Ahlul Kitab.

Hope this helps.

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Hello kingpomba,

The husband's role in Islam, in his household, is of great ascendancy and part of a woman's duties as a wife are submission to her husband's will (with the only exception being when she has to compromise what her religion demands of her). That does not make women 'less equal to' or 'less powerful than' men; that is, just the definition of what respecting and loving your husband is, according to Islam. The role of the wife of obeying her husband is one which has been very strongly and repeatedly accentuated. Here's an authentic hadith (reported in both Sunni and Shia books):

10191) - 6 - ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ¡ Úä ãÇáß Èä ÚØíÉ¡ Úä ÓáíãÇä ÇÈä ÎÇáÏ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) Ãä ÞæãÇ ÃÊæÇ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ÝÞÇáæ: íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÅäÇÑÃíäÇ ÇäÇÓÇ íÓÌÏ ÈÚÖåã áÈÚÖ ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå: áæ ÃãÑÊ ÃÍÏÇÃä íÓÌÏ áÇÍÏ áÇãÑÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ Ãä ÊÓÌÏ áÒæÌåÇ.

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Malik b. `Atiyya from Sulayman b. Khalid from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã that a group came to the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå and said: O Messenger of Allah, we say a people who some of them would prostrate to some. So the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said: Were I to command anyone to prostrate to someone I would have command the wife to prostrate to her husband.

http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi5/html/ara/books/al-kafi-5/336.html

I think I don't need to say more regarding why a Muslim woman can not and must not be forced to listen to a non-Muslim man as a husband, and the countless number of problems that would occur regularly in such a travesty of a marriage.

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Just a quick point, but actually it is not unanimous amongst our scholars in history that it is allowed for Muslim men to marry women of the people of the Book. Some of the early, prominent scholars (such as Shaykh Mufid and Sharif Murtada) considered to be prohibited absolutely, whether in permanent or temporary marriage.

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(bismillah)

Basim Ali touched on the idea of obedience to the husband in Islaam as an answer to your question, and this point is a major factor in why generally Muslim women cannot marry ahlul kitaab. In addition to this, you can imagine the trial of obeying a husband who does not hold any of the same religious principles that you adhere to. Always having to compromise, or put into a situation of compromising, your religious obligations. Since men in Islaam are not responsible for that much obedience in a general sense, then the situation would be very different.

But another point to make is that in Shi'a Islaam, it is generally accepted that men cannot permanently marry ahlul kitaab either. So Muslims permanently marry Muslims and that's it.

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Hello guys, i'd just like to thank you all for the wonderful answers so far.

First for Ace Abbas:

Yes, of course i will listen, i do not mind at all if you are sunni.

Second of all, Muslims status are higher compared to the Ahlul Kitab (People of The Book).

So, a Muslim man can marry to a Muslim woman, to a Christian woman and to a Jewish woman.

But as for a Muslim woman, she can only marry to a Muslim man as they have the same status.

....

Same goes to the marriage between a Muslim woman and a male Ahlul Kitab.

Muslim women are not allowed to marry to a male Ahlul Kitab because Muslim women have a higher status compared to male Ahlul Kitab.

I am having trouble understanding your logic Ace Abbas. I will set it out logically as I interpreted it. You say the following things:

1)All Muslims have higher status than people of the book

then

2)A Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim can because they have the same status.

Therefore, from this rule I can derive the fact that a Muslim man can also only marry another Muslim and not a person of the book.

You say Muslim women can only marry Muslim men because they have the same status, so the converse must be true because of 1).

Muslim men can only marry Muslim women, if they did not they would be marrying someone of lower status; this isn't permitted for women so why would it be permitted for men?

I hope you can understand the kind of logic i am getting at here, if not please ask and i will try to clarify further.

However, you say, "So, a Muslim man can marry to a Muslim woman, to a Christian woman and to a Jewish woman. But as for a Muslim woman, she can only marry to a Muslim man as they have the same status." I do not understand this taking into consideration what I have said above.

====================================================

To Basim Ali:

The husband's role in Islam, in his household, is of great ascendancy and part of a woman's duties as a wife are submission to her husband's will (with the only exception being when she has to compromise what her religion demands of her). That does not make women 'less equal to' or 'less powerful than' men; that is, just the definition of what respecting and loving your husband is, according to Islam.

Submission to me implies inequality though. Surely, if you submit to someone’s will you can't be equal, just going by the nature of the words. Submission implies deferring your will to someone else’s. It also seems to make the woman less powerful if she has to listen to everything her husband says (with the exception you noted, of course) and she does not really get much of a say. I think you can still respect and love your husband without totally submitting to him. I know many non-Muslims who have very happy marriages and they don't have these rules in place in their religion/ lack of religion.

I think I don't need to say more regarding why a Muslim woman can not and must not be forced to listen to a non-Muslim man as a husband, and the countless number of problems that would occur regularly in such a travesty of a marriage.

Indeed, please do say more. Why would listening to her husband cause any problems? Assuming he respects her religion in this case (Please no assuming by default that Ahl al-Kitab will definitely not respect the wife’s religion, this is similar to someone assuming a Muslim man would not respect his wife’s catholic beliefs or something similar. This is not a good way of thinking. This is having no faith in them.) What problem could arise? If he respects her religion anything he tells her to do will be the same as any Muslim man would have told her, if they were married. Therefore, I do not see why this would be so bad.

=====================================

Dear Maciassac:

Just a quick point, but actually it is not unanimous amongst our scholars in history that it is allowed for Muslim men to marry women of the people of the Book. Some of the early, prominent scholars (such as Shaykh Mufid and Sharif Murtada) considered to be prohibited absolutely, whether in permanent or temporary marriage.

This is actually the answer i like the best so far. I don't agree with its content (i think anyone should be able to marry anyone they want) but after studying religions for awhile i realise everyone has a different system and thats just how it is. I like it because it treats them both the same, it doesn't deny one a chance the other has. Who do you think i should listen to more, the modern scholars or the early scholars? What do you think about this issue.

I thank you all for your time, first of all :) . I realise it may sound like i'm being critical but i'm not out to beat on your religion and hate on it, otherwise why would i be here :) ? Please, keep this in mind when reading my posts, i really mean all the best. Thank you for all the answers so far,

-kingpomba

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Just a quick point, but actually it is not unanimous amongst our scholars in history that it is allowed for Muslim men to marry women of the people of the Book. Some of the early, prominent scholars (such as Shaykh Mufid and Sharif Murtada) considered to be prohibited absolutely, whether in permanent or temporary marriage.

(salam)

So is it still debatable whether you can marry ahlul Kitab permanently? I know that many modern and recent scholars have allowed Mutah with the Ahlul Kitab, but do they explicitly state that marrying them permanently is absolutely prohibited?

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That might best be taken to another thread :).

I don't really want this one disrupted or taken off topic much and you'll probably get a better answer in the marriage forums :) .

Edited by kingpomba

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Dear Maciassac:

This is actually the answer i like the best so far. I don't agree with its content (i think anyone should be able to marry anyone they want) but after studying religions for awhile i realise everyone has a different system and thats just how it is. I like it because it treats them both the same, it doesn't deny one a chance the other has. Who do you think i should listen to more, the modern scholars or the early scholars? What do you think about this issue.

Honestly, I don't know what to think. I've looked into this and both sides have some pretty compelling arguments for evidence from the sources (Quran and ahadith). If one were to side with precaution though it would be to abstain from it, though the evidence for some possibly limited for permissibility (and even there with a strong dislike of it) might tip the scale a bit in terms of evidence, hard to say. I've thought it'd be interesting to start a thread on this one day, in sha Allah, in particular showing the evidence against marrying them since such a legal position is rare nowadays.

While this is not at all a valid reason for holding one view over the other, sometimes I wish the more restrictive view on this had become the more predominant one for the simple reason of reducing unwanted and most often unfulfilled temptations in men. When there remains that possibility of contracting some sort of marriage with them, there is a greater chance of having that temptation present than it would be if such a woman was simply off limits. A problem with having that temptation though is that in the majority of cases it will remain only that, a temptation and never be fulfilled. As you pointed out in another thread, in most cases a religious kitabiyya would not engage in such a marriage, so what you would usually find would be a woman the, shall we say, "looser" sort... Even in that case it's not like such women are standing out there announcing their availability (well, excluding the obvious professional exception...), so very often the man would have to put himself in a rather questionable circumstance in order to pick her up, going to places Muslim men really have no business being in. Even without all that, say it was engaged in under honorable circumstances, marrying such a woman even temporarily while perhaps desirable on one obvious level, would also be highly undesirable on a number of other levels both on the outside and inside. It's a bit ironic that a hadith that is often cited as evidence for its permissibility is actually worded in quite a negative manner in regards to the effect of this on the man's religion:

[ 26279 ] 1 Ü ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä ãÍÈæÈ ¡ Úä ãÚÇæíÉ Èä æåÈ æÛíÑå ÌãíÚÇ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ýí ÇáÑÌá ÇáãÄãä íÊÒæÌ ÇáíåæÏíÉ æÇáäÕÑÇäíÉ ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÅÐÇ ÃÕÇÈ ÇáãÓáãÉ ÝãÇ íÕäÚ ÈÇáíåæÏíÉ æÇáäÕÑÇäíÉ ¿ ÝÞáÊ áå : íßæä áå ÝíåÇ Çáåæì ¡ ÞÇá : Åä ÝÚá ÝáíãäÚåÇ ãä ÔÑÈ ÇáÎãÑ æÃßá áÍã ÇáÎäÒíÑ ¡ æÇÚáã Ãä Úáíå Ýí Ïíäå ÛÖÇÖÉ .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Mu`awiya b. Wahb and other than him [from our companions – in al-Kafi] all from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã regarding the believing man who marries the Jewish woman and the Christian woman. He said: When he comes by the Muslim woman then what does he have to do with the Jewish woman and the Christian woman? So I said to him: He has desire for her. So he said: If he does it then he is to forbid her from drinking wine and eating pig meat, and know that upon him in his religion is a deficiency.

Small Correction:

imply a man will have more sway over the religion his children decide to follow than his mother is unacceptable to me,

I meant to say "His wife"

Looking forward to your answers,

-kingpomba

You might find this hadith of interest in that it is looking at it from the reverse angle:

[ 26276 ] 5 Ü æÚä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü Ýí ÍÏíË Ü ÞÇá : æãÇ ÇÍÈ ááÑÌá ÇáãÓáã Ãä íÊÒæÌ ÇáíåæÏíÉ æáÇ ÇáäÕÑÇäíÉ ãÎÇÝÉ Ãä íÊåæÏ æáÏå Ãæ íÊäÕÑ .

5 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from `Abdulllah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: I do not love for a Muslim man to marry a Jewish woman nor a Christian woman, out of fear that she will Judaize his child or Christianize him.

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You might find this hadith of interest in that it is looking at it from the reverse angle:

[ 26276 ] 5 Ü æÚä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÓäÇä ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü Ýí ÍÏíË Ü ÞÇá : æãÇ ÇÍÈ ááÑÌá ÇáãÓáã Ãä íÊÒæÌ ÇáíåæÏíÉ æáÇ ÇáäÕÑÇäíÉ ãÎÇÝÉ Ãä íÊåæÏ æáÏå Ãæ íÊäÕÑ .

5 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from `Abdulllah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: I do not love for a Muslim man to marry a Jewish woman nor a Christian woman, out of fear that she will Judaize his child or Christianize him.

That makes a lot more sense to me. Because one of the things I found online somehow implied that if a Muslim woman marries a Christian man somehow magically, the man will have much more influence over what his children believe, even when they are teenagers and can think entirely on their own!. That did not make sense to me at all.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Unless one parent makes a conscious effort to really push their religion on the kids there is no reason to assume the father *or* the mother would hold more influence. After all, there is no compulsion in religion and I think it is a much better and spiritually rewarding thing if you tell the children about other religions and they still come to Islam. It is why I have such great respect for converts, they looked at all the other options and Islam is the one they found. They followed a similar path to me, they looked at all the world’s religions but they reached a different conclusion. Which is fine, different things for different people but i find it brilliant that they did that!

Maybe people might be afraid of what the above quote said in this situation but i do not think it is a good idea to just shut your kids off from the rest of the world and knowledge to ensure they definitely believe. I have seen many people baptized as Christians and raised as Christians, it was not something they ever wanted. It is just their parents chose their religion for them when they were born. These kind of people 99% of the time do not turn out to be very good Christians. The strongest Christians I have seen are people who make a commitment later on in their teenage life and think about it, “Yes! I do believe this”. Maybe, even people who have some revelation later in their lives or think about it as adults.

Many of the religious people in the world (not only Muslims of course, many Christians i see doing this) simply believe in a religion because that is what they were brought up in. That is not very spiritually rewarding, if you actually think about other religions and come to Islam still, I think that is a much greater thing. I'm sure all the true Muslims in the community would rather have a smaller community of true believes than 1 billion people who believe it because that’s all they've been told, if i was a true believing Muslim, I know which I’d choose.

Just out of interest, what hadith is this from? I would like to read some of the rest of that book.

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As an addendum to the above, even if the Christian woman is of the religious sort, that doesn't at all solve the real issues that will be between them. (Not to mention what is the value of her adherence to a religion we regard as in error anyway)

With regards to the contemporary, mainstream religious Christian, she will in all likelihood:

- consume pork and other forbidden meats

- drink alcohol, even if not to the point of drunkenness

- have no comparative concept of purity laws like we do. So:

- she will generally not avoid those things we consider impure (e.g. dogs)

- she will not perform the ritual bathings post-menstruation or post-intercourse

- she will not purify herself from using the washroom, other than possibly washing her hands but still leaving the dirtiest areas unwashed (until she takes a shower/bath)

- she will not adhere to our legal positions in regards to custody, inheritance, legal rights and roles, and so on, and the non-Islamic courts would not likely be favorable to us in the case of a divorce

- she will hold belief in doctrines that are blasphemous according to ours (e.g. Jesus (as) being the son and incarnation of God)

- she will on some level reject the belief in our Prophet (pbuh) and his message.

And I'd imagine other problems could be listed. Note, the above is an example of someone who might actually be deemed religious in the Christians' standard, we're not talking about some cheap fornicatress that parties it up.

That makes a lot more sense to me. Because one of the things I found online somehow implied that if a Muslim woman marries a Christian man somehow magically, the man will have much more influence over what his children believe, even when they are teenagers and can think entirely on their own!. That did not make sense to me at all.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

Unless one parent makes a conscious effort to really push their religion on the kids there is no reason to assume the father *or* the mother would hold more influence. After all, there is no compulsion in religion and I think it is a much better and spiritually rewarding thing if you tell the children about other religions and they still come to Islam. It is why I have such great respect for converts, they looked at all the other options and Islam is the one they found. They followed a similar path to me, they looked at all the world’s religions but they reached a different conclusion. Which is fine, different things for different people but i find it brilliant that they did that!

Maybe people might be afraid of what the above quote said in this situation but i do not think it is a good idea to just shut your kids off from the rest of the world and knowledge to ensure they definitely believe. I have seen many people baptized as Christians and raised as Christians, it was not something they ever wanted. It is just their parents chose their religion for them when they were born. These kind of people 99% of the time do not turn out to be very good Christians. The strongest Christians I have seen are people who make a commitment later on in their teenage life and think about it, “Yes! I do believe this”. Maybe, even people who have some revelation later in their lives or think about it as adults.

Many of the religious people in the world (not only Muslims of course, many Christians i see doing this) simply believe in a religion because that is what they were brought up in. That is not very spiritually rewarding, if you actually think about other religions and come to Islam still, I think that is a much greater thing. I'm sure all the true Muslims in the community would rather have a smaller community of true believes than 1 billion people who believe it because that’s all they've been told, if i was a true believing Muslim, I know which I’d choose.

Just out of interest, what hadith is this from? I would like to read some of the rest of that book.

I agree in that both parents can certainly have an influence, and say it's a case where the mother is staying at home with the children with a father who is often out, it might even be she would be the one having the strongest influence as such.

As to educating one's children in the beliefs of others I also agree to this (so long as it is done right), if only for the aim that they already will know what's out there, why it is wrong and why Islam is right (call it brainwashing if you like, but just about all parents to some extent want their children to turn out in the manner they believe right). I myself am a convert, and while I do hold worries for other things and influences on children growing up, I am not worried about my child coming to me with some difficult to answer question or wanting to learn more about the beliefs of others. Chances are I've been there myself already, and I'd be comfortable in discussing these things with him or her.

As to the hadith, the original source would be from al-Kafi, one of our primary collections, though I have quoted it from Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, a massive compilation bringing together the legal hadiths from earlier sources and organizing it together. The translation is my own, and the full chapter it was taken from can be found here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/prohibition-by-kufr/forbiddance-of-marrying-kuffar

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As an addendum to the above, even if the Christian woman is of the religious sort, that doesn't at all solve the real issues that will be between them. (Not to mention what is the value of her adherence to a religion we regard as in error anyway)

With regards to the contemporary, mainstream religious Christian, she will in all likelihood:

- consume pork and other forbidden meats

- drink alcohol, even if not to the point of drunkenness

- have no comparative concept of purity laws like we do. So:

- she will generally not avoid those things we consider impure (e.g. dogs)

- she will not perform the ritual bathings post-menstruation or post-intercourse

- she will not purify herself from using the washroom, other than possibly washing her hands but still leaving the dirtiest areas unwashed (until she takes a shower/bath)

- she will not adhere to our legal positions in regards to custody, inheritance, legal rights and roles, and so on, and the non-Islamic courts would not likely be favorable to us in the case of a divorce

- she will hold belief in doctrines that are blasphemous according to ours (e.g. Jesus (as) being the son and incarnation of God)

- she will on some level reject the belief in our Prophet (pbuh) and his message.

And I'd imagine other problems could be listed. Note, the above is an example of someone who might actually be deemed religious in the Christians' standard, we're not talking about some cheap fornicatress that parties it up.

I agree in that both parents can certainly have an influence, and say it's a case where the mother is staying at home with the children with a father who is often out, it might even be she would be the one having the strongest influence as such.

As to educating one's children in the beliefs of others I also agree to this (so long as it is done right), if only for the aim that they already will know what's out there, why it is wrong and why Islam is right (call it brainwashing if you like, but just about all parents to some extent want their children to turn out in the manner they believe right). I myself am a convert, and while I do hold worries for other things and influences on children growing up, I am not worried about my child coming to me with some difficult to answer question or wanting to learn more about the beliefs of others. Chances are I've been there myself already, and I'd be comfortable in discussing these things with him or her.

As to the hadith, the original source would be from al-Kafi, one of our primary collections, though I have quoted it from Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, a massive compilation bringing together the legal hadiths from earlier sources and organizing it together. The translation is my own, and the full chapter it was taken from can be found here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/prohibition-by-kufr/forbiddance-of-marrying-kuffar

These hadiths must be weak, other our scholars would never say it is halal to do mutah with christians and jews.

It is lawful for you to marry chaste Muslim women and chaste women of the People of the Book, provided, you pay their dowry, maintain chastity, and avoid fornication or lustful relations outside of marriage. The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith, certainly, become fruitless. He will be of those who lose on the Day of Judgment. (5:5)

It's the clear that muslim men can marry non muslims. Or is this a verse that was only valid during the Prophet's time?

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Okay, this is an elaboration for my second point.

1st, Muslim men and Muslim women are just equal.

2nd, Muslims (men and women) have higher status compared to the People of the Book (men and women).

Okay, now, I'd like to give and example regarding to the marriage.

Say,

Muslim man = male boss.

Muslim woman = female boss.

Christian and Jewish men = male employers.

Christian and Jewish women = female employers.

Male boss and female boss have the same status, they both are bosses. So, they can date together, there's nothing wrong with that.

Male boss also sometimes will ask his female employers for a date (this happens everywhere). So, it's fine and it's a normal thing.

Male employers only dare to ask female employers to go for a date. This usually happens.

If a male employer ask his female boss to go for a date, it's either weird to be seen or the male employer will be fired.

I hope my office-kind-of-explanation is clear enough.

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These hadiths must be weak, other our scholars would never say it is halal to do mutah with christians and jews.

Actually the two I quoted would be considered sahih (possibly hasan in the second case). In fact, the first one is a common one they use to prove that it is allowed, because even though the Imam does not speak well of it he doesn't outright say it is not permissible, so they use that to argue for its permissibility. On the other hand, we do have other ahadith that are more explicit in saying it is haram. For instance, in regards to the verse you cited:

It is lawful for you to marry chaste Muslim women and chaste women of the People of the Book, provided, you pay their dowry, maintain chastity, and avoid fornication or lustful relations outside of marriage. The deeds of anyone who rejects the faith, certainly, become fruitless. He will be of those who lose on the Day of Judgment. (5:5)

there are these hadith:

[ 26272 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن محبوب ، عن علي بن رئاب ، عن زرارة بن أعين قال : سألت أبا جعفر ( عليه السلام ) عن قول الله عزّ وجلّ : ( والمحصنات من الذين اوتوا الكتاب من قبلكم ) ؟ فقال : هي منسوخة بقوله : ( ولا تمسكوا بعصم الكوافر ) .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Mahbub from `Ali b. Ri’ab from Zurara b. A`yan. He said: I asked Abu Ja`far عليه السلام about the saying of Allah عزّ وجلّ “And the chaste women from those who have been given the Book prior to you” (5:5). So he said: It is abrogated (mansukha) by His saying “And do not hold onto the ties of the kafir women.” (60:10)

[ 26274 ] 3 ـ وعن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن فضال ، عن الحسن بن الجهم قال : قال لي أبوالحسن الرضا ( عليه السلام ) : يا أبا محمد ، ما تقول في رجل تزوج نصرانية على مسلمة ؟ قال : قلت : جعلت فداك ، وما قولي بين يديك ؟ قال : لتقولن فان ذلك يعلم به قولي ، قلت : لا يجوز تزويج النصرانية على مسلمة ولا غير مسلمة ، قال : ولم ؟ قلت : لقول الله عزّ وجلّ : ( ولا تنكحوا المشركات حتى يؤمن ) قال : فما تقول في هذه الآية : ( والمحصنات من الذين اوتوا الكتاب من قبلكم ) قلت : فقوله : ( ولا تنكحوا المشركات ) نسخت هذه الآية ، فتبسم ثم سكت .

3 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Faddal from al-Hasan b. Jahm. He said: Abu ‘l-Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام said to me: O Abu Muhammad, what do you say about a man who marries a Christian woman upon a Muslima (i.e. a man who has a Muslim wife and then also marries a Christian woman)? I said: May I be your ransom, and what is my saying before you? He said: You are to say (it) for by that my saying will be known. I said: it is not allowed to marry the Christian woman upon the Muslima and the non-Muslima. He said: And why? I said: Because of the saying of Allah `azza wa jalla “And do not marry the mushrik women until they believe.” (2:221) He said: So what do you say about this ayat “And the chaste women of those who have been given the Book from before you” (5:5) I said: His saying “And do not marry the mushrik women” abrogated this ayat. So he smiled, then was silent.

[ 26278 ] 7 ـ الفضل بن الحسن الطبرسي في ( مجمع البيان ) عند قوله تعالى : ( والمحصنات من الذين اوتوا الكتاب ) قال : روى أبو الجارود ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) أنه منسوخ بقوله تعالى : ( ولا تنكحوا المشركات حتى يؤمن ) وبقوله : ( ولا تمسكوا بعصم الكوافر ) .

7 – al-Fadl b. al-Hasan at-Tabrisi in Majma` al-Bayan at His تعالى saying “and the chaste women who were given the Book”, he said: Abu ‘l-Jarud narrated from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام that it is abrogated by His تعالى saying “and do not marry the mushrik women until they believe” and by His saying “and do not hold onto the ties of the kafir women”.

and:

[ 26275 ] 4 ـ وعنه ، عن أحمد ، عن ابن فضال ، عن أحمد بن عمر ، عن درست الواسطي ، عن علي بن رئاب ، عن زرارة بن أعين ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا ينبغي نكاح أهل الكتاب ، قلت : جعلت فداك ، وأين تحريمه ؟ قال : قوله : ( ولا تمسكوا بعصم الكوافر ) .

4 – And from him from Ahmad from Ibn Faddal from Ahmad b. `Umar from Durust al-Wasiti from `Ali b. Ri’ab from Zurara b. A`yan from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Marriage to the people of the Book is not appropriate. I said: May I be your ransom, and where is its forbiddance? He said: His saying “And do not hold onto the ties of the kafir women”.

On the other hand, we do have some hadiths (like the ones I mentioned) that could be understood to be permitting it in some fashion. The position of permanent marriage haram, mut`a halal, is one way of trying to reconcile the apparent conflict in these traditions. As I said though, on this particular issue there has been much disagreement, ranging from permissibility for both permanent and temporary marriage, to forbiddance for both. Then there are other issues as well, such as whether (if it is allowed in the first place to marry a kitabiyya) one who already has a Muslim wife can marry a Kitabiyya one.

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(salam)

What is really meant when the Quran is referring to the chaste women among the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) in verse 5:5? Are these referring to women who are virgin or widows and not fornicators or adulteress?

The verse in 60:10 is referring to women who are Kafir. We don’t consider all Christians as Kafir do we? If yes, then why is there a need to call the Christians, the Jews and the Sabians as people of the Book?

[The Holy Quran 2:62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[The Holy Quran 5:69] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[The Holy Quran 22:17] Lo! those who believe (this revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters - Lo! Allah will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! Allah is Witness over all things.

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Yes, we do consider Christians to be kafir. They reject the final Messenger (pbuh) and the Christians beliefs about `Isa (as) is clear shirk.

لَمْ يَكُنِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ مُنْفَكِّينَ حَتَّىٰ تَأْتِيَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَةُ {1

رَسُولٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ يَتْلُو صُحُفًا مُطَهَّرَةً {2

The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters would never leave off; till the Clear Sign came to them

a Messenger from God, reciting pages purified (98:1-2)

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُ مَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ۖ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنْصَارٍ {72

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِنْ لَمْ يَنْتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ {73

They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son.' For the Messiah said, 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, Allah shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.'

They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three'. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. (5:72-73)

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Yes, we do consider Christians to be kafir. They reject the final Messenger (pbuh) and the Christians beliefs about `Isa (as) is clear shirk.

áóãú íóßõäö ÇáóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ ãöäú Ãóåúáö ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö æóÇáúãõÔúÑößöíäó ãõäúÝóßöøíäó ÍóÊóøìٰ ÊóÃúÊöíóåõãõ ÇáúÈóíöøäóÉõ {1

ÑóÓõæáñ ãöäó Çááóøåö íóÊúáõæ ÕõÍõÝðÇ ãõØóåóøÑóÉð {2

The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolaters would never leave off; till the Clear Sign came to them

a Messenger from God, reciting pages purified (98:1-2)

áóÞóÏú ßóÝóÑó ÇáóøÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ Åöäóø Çááóøåó åõæó ÇáúãóÓöíÍõ ÇÈúäõ ãóÑúíóãó ۖ æóÞóÇáó ÇáúãóÓöíÍõ íóÇ Èóäöí ÅöÓúÑóÇÆöíáó ÇÚúÈõÏõæÇ Çááóøåó ÑóÈöøí æóÑóÈóøßõãú ۖ Åöäóøåõ ãóäú íõÔúÑößú ÈöÇááóøåö ÝóÞóÏú ÍóÑóøãó Çááóøåõ Úóáóíúåö ÇáúÌóäóøÉó æóãóÃúæóÇåõ ÇáäóøÇÑõ ۖ æóãóÇ áöáÙóøÇáöãöíäó ãöäú ÃóäúÕóÇÑò {72

áóÞóÏú ßóÝóÑó ÇáóøÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ Åöäóø Çááóøåó ËóÇáöËõ ËóáóÇËóÉò ۘ æóãóÇ ãöäú Åöáóٰåò ÅöáóøÇ Åöáóٰåñ æóÇÍöÏñ ۚ æóÅöäú áóãú íóäúÊóåõæÇ ÚóãóøÇ íóÞõæáõæäó áóíóãóÓóøäóø ÇáóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ ãöäúåõãú ÚóÐóÇÈñ Ãóáöíãñ {73

They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son.' For the Messiah said, 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, Allah shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.'

They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three'. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. (5:72-73)

But what do Islamic scholars say about these verses:

[The Holy Quran 2:62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[The Holy Quran 5:69] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

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To Basim Ali:

Submission to me implies inequality though. Surely, if you submit to someone’s will you can't be equal, just going by the nature of the words. Submission implies deferring your will to someone else’s. It also seems to make the woman less powerful if she has to listen to everything her husband says (with the exception you noted, of course) and she does not really get much of a say. I think you can still respect and love your husband without totally submitting to him. I know many non-Muslims who have very happy marriages and they don't have these rules in place in their religion/ lack of religion.

How so? Would you say the same for; for example, kids 'submitting' to their parents or an employee adhering to the guidelines set by his employer? Does that make the former less 'equal' or less 'powerful' (as in not in the organization, but as humans with rights) to the latter? By submission, the former are merely doing what they are supposed to do. They could choose not to do so, but that would make them lousy kids/employees.

As for 'not getting a say', I wouldn't say that. The husband is open to advice and counsel from his spouse, without doubt. There's no barrier to them discussing matters between them. But the ultimate power of decision lies with the husband. There are unnumbered traditions which support this, for example it has been narrated that the Jihad of a woman is the perfection of her duty to her husband and that a woman must not leave the house without the permission of her husband, or the angels curse her until she returns. Even the Qur'an asserts this:

[... ÝóÇáÕóøÇáöÍóÇÊõ ÞóÇäöÊóÇÊñ ÍóÇÝöÙóÇÊñ áöáúÛóíúÈö ÈöãóÇ ÍóÝöÙó Çááóøåõ ...]

[...the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded;...] (4:34)

It may seem like Islam awards an autocratic role to the husband, but it's not so. When I say the wife is supposed to listen to her husband, it doesn't mean the husband can force her to do anything he likes. There are particular rights he has over the wife (like the right of sexual satisfaction), and he can not exceed those. In fact, it is not within the rights of the husband to make his wife do his housework (cleaning, cooking, etc.). In return, the woman is promised immense reward; for obeying her husband, for going through pregnancy, raising kids, cooking, etc. To sum it up:

æóÇáúãõØóáóøÞóÇÊõ íóÊóÑóÈóøÕúäó ÈöÃóäúÝõÓöåöäóø ËóáóÇËóÉó ÞõÑõæÁò ۚ æóáóÇ íóÍöáõø áóåõäóø Ãóäú íóßúÊõãúäó ãóÇ ÎóáóÞó Çááóøåõ Ýöí ÃóÑúÍóÇãöåöäóø Åöäú ßõäóø íõÄúãöäóø ÈöÇááóøåö æóÇáúíóæúãö ÇáúÂÎöÑö ۚ æóÈõÚõæáóÊõåõäóø ÃóÍóÞõø ÈöÑóÏöøåöäóø Ýöí Ðóٰáößó Åöäú ÃóÑóÇÏõæÇ ÅöÕúáóÇÍðÇ ۚ æóáóåõäóø ãöËúáõ ÇáóøÐöí Úóáóíúåöäóø ÈöÇáúãóÚúÑõæÝö ۚ æóáöáÑöøÌóÇáö Úóáóíúåöäóø ÏóÑóÌóÉñ ۗ æóÇááóøåõ ÚóÒöíÒñ Íóßöíãñ {228}

And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (2:228)

That people who do not have such rules in place also have happy, successful marriages is not a valid point, in my opinion. Nobody said if you did not follow Islam and the way of life it prescribes, your marriages would fall apart or that you would die of melancholy. For example, kids who don't listen to their parents may still become very successful in their lives. But what's wrong is wrong; it doesn't change the facts they were awful kids. Our belief is that what Islam prescribes is the best for us, in this world and in the Hereafter. But the disastrous consequences of a house where the wife refuses to listen to her husband are pretty obvious - I think.

Indeed, please do say more. Why would listening to her husband cause any problems? Assuming he respects her religion in this case (Please no assuming by default that Ahl al-Kitab will definitely not respect the wife’s religion, this is similar to someone assuming a Muslim man would not respect his wife’s catholic beliefs or something similar. This is not a good way of thinking. This is having no faith in them.) What problem could arise? If he respects her religion anything he tells her to do will be the same as any Muslim man would have told her, if they were married. Therefore, I do not see why this would be so bad.

Br. macisaac made a good list of things that would be completely fine and dandy with an Kitabi man, and much problematic for a Muslim woman, a few posts above.

It's not about the man not respecting the woman's religion. Christianity/Judaism are far too different from Islam to peacefully and successfully, co-exist in the same house without much chaos. It would require an unusually difficult and uncomfortable amount of acclimation for the husband (so much that he should actually consider reverting to Islam instead! :P ). For example, while most Kitabi men would be okay with alcohol around the house, it is forbidden for her wife to do as little as sit on the same table with alcohol on it.

Hope that was sufficiently understandable.

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unfortunately usually when a Muslim man marries a non-muslim woman he really isn't into his religion to begin with. If the man doesnt have the sense of religion the kids will not be raised islamically in most cases. I've seen this happen with a few people in the community, even within my own family. It kills me to see this happening but my own cousins are being raised as catholics because my uncle married a christian. From what i seen and my opinion, its usually the mother who has a lot of influence over the childrens religion as well.

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How so? Would you say the same for; for example, kids 'submitting' to their parents or an employee adhering to the guidelines set by his employer? Does that make the former less 'equal' or less 'powerful' (as in not in the organization, but as humans with rights) to the latter? By submission, the former are merely doing what they are supposed to do. They could choose not to do so, but that would make them lousy kids/employees.

Well yes, i'd say naturally the kids/employees are less equal or powerful than the employer. The employee is also following guidelines someone else told him to, he didn't make his own guidelines and to be what people consider a good employee he has to follow these whether he wants to or not.

....that a woman must not leave the house without the permission of her husband, or the angels curse her until she returns....

Now this, i don't agree with at all. It definetly makes them less equal if the man can leave the house of his own volition and she can not. It's akin to holding someone hostage. A hostage definetly has less power, i'm sure everyone will agree with me on this. If you're being held hostage by a criminal or someone you definetly have less power and just can't walk out the door.

It may seem like Islam awards an autocratic role to the husband, but it's not so. When I say the wife is supposed to listen to her husband, it doesn't mean the husband can force her to do anything he likes. There are particular rights he has over the wife (like the right of sexual satisfaction), and he can not exceed those. In fact, it is not within the rights of the husband to make his wife do his housework (cleaning, cooking, etc.). In return, the woman is promised immense reward; for obeying her husband, for going through pregnancy, raising kids, cooking, etc.....

This makes it a lot better but im kind of getting mixed messages here...first it is said she cant leave the house but then you say it is up to her whether she wants to do any house work or not. The kind of vibes im getting here are conflicting.

For example, while most Kitabi men would be okay with alcohol around the house, it is forbidden for her wife to do as little as sit on the same table with alcohol on it.

If he was a good husband i think he would keep it out of the house, out of respect in the first place. If i was in this situation, i would.

============================================================================================

unfortunately usually when a Muslim man marries a non-muslim woman he really isn't into his religion to begin with.

This part i could go for.

It kills me to see this happening but my own cousins are being raised as catholics because my uncle married a christian. From what i seen and my opinion, its usually the mother who has a lot of influence over the childrens religion as well.

It shouldn't kill you, no compulsion in religion after all :) . Nothing wrong with them being "catholics" i'm usually against telling children religious ideas all together, they really don't have sufficient capacity to think about these matters and decide on a religion for themselves. More often than not you have people in a religion just because they were born into it and they don't really carry it out that well. It's why i have such great respect for any kind of convert, they thought about it a lot as an adult and weighed up all their options and found what they thought was the true religion. Obviously, you guys have thought about religion too otherwise you wouldn't be on an Islamic forum. Well if Islam is the one true religion im sure they'll come across it :).

==============================================================================================

Well, to wrap it up, the best argument i saw for why muslim women can't marry people of the book is the fact that this question shouldn't even be asked in the first place; since it also isn't even allowed for men.

The other arguments make some sense to me but they don't really satisfactorily answer all my questions. I appreciate everyone's input though.

I'd like to thank you all for your time,

-kingpomba

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Well, I'd just like kingpomba that I personally have no problem with Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. It's actually starting to happen a little more often these days. Some sheikhs approve it, some don't. Some don't approve of Muslim men or Muslim women marrying non-Muslims at all. However, I personally feel that it is safe to say that it is not the most recommended course of action. A man is physically stronger than a woman most of the time. So in the chance that the non-Muslim man is abusive, he could force the woman to become a non-Muslim much more easily than a non-Muslim wife could her Muslim husband.

I'm of the view that it permissible, but must be done with more caution for to ensure the security of the Muslim female's physical and spiritual safety.

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If he was a good husband i think he would keep it out of the house, out of respect in the first place. If i was in this situation, i would.

Yes, but you see the Shari`ah (and pretty much every other law system in the world) does not legislate according to exceptional cases. Laws are based on what is expected to happen most of the time, not what a few people might do sometimes. There might be a few non-Muslim men who would allow their Muslim wives complete freedom, but the majority would not. You must also try to understand that Islam is a religion for everyone in the world, and so it can't be based on an exceptional case where men are not the higher authorities in a relationship, such as in the West.

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Well yes, i'd say naturally the kids/employees are less equal or powerful than the employer. The employee is also following guidelines someone else told him to, he didn't make his own guidelines and to be what people consider a good employee he has to follow these whether he wants to or not.

Well obviously he follows what he is told because he is lower in the hierarchy. That wasn't my question. But does the fact that he has to listen to someone else make him less important/powerful/equal of a human? Would he not have the same rights as his employer or for example, not be judged in the same way as his employer in court just because he takes orders from someone? That was my question.

If the answer to the above questions is a 'No', then I don't know what weight the words being 'less powerful' carry; when you're getting all your rights your husband is getting and you're entitled to food, shelter and clothing from him.

I reiterate, obedience and submission does not mean you're not allowed to have your own opinion, or that you're not allow to have a discussion about things or that your husband has unconditional rights to make you do anything he wants. Like the Qur'an says: the woman has rights similar to those against her. One of her rights says she doesn't have to work in the house (it's recommended, but not obligatory).

Obedience should be understood as acquiescence without the rights of any of the spouses being violated. For example, it is not within the rights of the woman to refuse her husband sexual pleasure. So she has to obey him in this matter. Likewise it is within her right to demand from her husband food, shelter and clothing for herself. So you could say the husband has to obey his wife, in this matter. I mean why be a skeptic and look at it from the point of view of Islamophobics and all the 'Islam promotes women's suppression' bogus?

Now this, i don't agree with at all. It definetly makes them less equal if the man can leave the house of his own volition and she can not. It's akin to holding someone hostage. A hostage definetly has less power, i'm sure everyone will agree with me on this. If you're being held hostage by a criminal or someone you definetly have less power and just can't walk out the door.

Hostage? :!!!:

Again, you misunderstand. It doesn't mean she has to seek her husband's permission every time she steps out of the house. Most Muslim husbands wouldn't mind their wives going wherever they like (pretty much like any husband) so this really isn't much of an issue. But yes, if the wife starts meeting other men or starts engaging in something her husband dislikes, he has complete right to exercise his right to keep her from going out.

That said and this may sound a bit old-fashioned, but the primary place the woman is supposed to be in, is her home (please, I'm not saying she shouldn't or can't go out). It isn't her job to work. That's precisely why Islam has obligated the man of the house to be the breadwinner and has recommended (not obligated) it for the woman to do the household work.

If he was a good husband i think he would keep it out of the house, out of respect in the first place. If i was in this situation, i would.

What else would he keep out of the house; dogs, pork? How would he explain to every non-Muslim friend that he has to maintain their distance from his wife? He has to get used to umpteen number of things, such as complete solitude for her at least five times a day when she can pray, her fasting for at least one entire month every year, during which she can not eat, drink or engage in sexual activity with him, her being allowed only Halal meats, etc. and the list continues. Because of the religious complications that would arise, in such a marriage the usual case is that either one of the spouse converts to the other's faith or is just isn't a practicing follower of their religion. Either way, if it's the wife that does this, then the marriage is effecting her religion. A marriage that eventually leads to apostasy would definitely be forbidden.

wa (salam)

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Well, I'd just like kingpomba that I personally have no problem with Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. It's actually starting to happen a little more often these days. Some sheikhs approve it, some don't. Some don't approve of Muslim men or Muslim women marrying non-Muslims at all. However, I personally feel that it is safe to say that it is not the most recommended course of action. A man is physically stronger than a woman most of the time. So in the chance that the non-Muslim man is abusive, he could force the woman to become a non-Muslim much more easily than a non-Muslim wife could her Muslim husband.

I'm of the view that it permissible, but must be done with more caution for to ensure the security of the Muslim female's physical and spiritual safety.

please "saintly_jinn23"

do not let the fact that you're living in the west blind you from reality.

with all due respect,whoever you regard as "sheikh" that allows a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man should use his turban for firewood.i mean he should take off his turban and burn it.

as for stressing the question why it is not allowed,it is enough to even ask.i do not even think answers are required to answer the obvious.does the Quran allow it?the answer is no.

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The reason Muslim women are not permitted to marry men from amongst Ahl-Al-Kitaab (whereas Muslim men are given permission to marry from amongst believing Jewish and Christian women, Q5:5), is because women have well-defined rights under Islamic Law. For instance, upon marriage,

a) the husband is required to give dower; Q4:4

B) he is obligated to provide for her financially,

c) is her protector and guardian; Q4:34

d) where marital difficulties arise, trusted mediators from both parties to the dispute must be appointed - in order to find acceptable settlements to them; Q4:35

e) where resolution cannot be found, dissolution of the marriage may take place - at the request of the wife; Q2:229

f) she is entitled to keep her own name, property, and so on.

Judaic and Christian marital laws are different: it is extremely difficult for a Jewish woman to obtain a divorce from her husband, though she is fully entitled to seek one. As for Christian women: Protestants now permit divorce, whereas the Catholic Church remains firmly against the "liberalising" of marriage laws, and thus, do not allow divorce. This is a matter which requires further research - hopefully, our Jewish and Christian brethren may give us the benefit of their knowledge in regard to these matters.

It is also possible that recourse to secular courts would become an inevitablity, if both parties to the marriage required mediation for settlement of disputes, or for divorce. In any case, since Allah SWT is exceedingly Protective of women, and has clearly laid down the parameters of just treatment of them, I do not think it is necessary to delve too deeply into the hows and whys about this particular prohibition or injunction. That Muslims trust in HIS Judgment and Wisdom is a given. Wa Llahu 'Alam

As I am a late-comer to this journal, I have not had time to read through the - doubtless - interesting and informative preceding posts. So if anything I have written here is a repetition of what has already been stated, then I ask the moderators to kindly refrain from posting this - thankyou.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

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Salam, let me give my view on this inshallah and I hope that it is useful to the op or indeed anyone else reading it. I am a revert/convert to Islam and I converted to Islam at the age of 14, and I have been Muslim for 10 years now. During that time I have lived with my non muslim parents and family. I feel that this situation is very much akin to a muslim woman marrying a non muslim man (who will also presumably have a non muslim family) Let me tell you, I feel that with the majority of non muslims in the west in particular(I can only speak about the part of the world that I live in) they are impossible for a practicing Muslim(and if your are not following your religion, then ofcourse Allah-swt isn't pleased) to live in the same house as, and it is very difficult to have a fully meaningful relationship with them. Your whole philosophy and life goals, and the rules you follow are so very very different, just as has been listed in many posts above, plus many more practical and spiritual aspects to life are hindered. I have faced many comprimises whilst living in this environment, ones that I shouldn't have had to make and that weren't helpful in making me a better person, and I don't think that any Muslim, male or female should have to make these compromises or changes to beliefs or practices. It is inevitable, that with a lifestyle and religion such as Islam, anyone who is not muslim and may willingly try to comprimise for the sake of a loved one or husband or wife, will inevitably end up frustrated that all the comprimising is one way and fight back, this will either result in the muslim in the relationship breaking down and compromising in key areas of faith or in an end to the relationship. Also, in terms of marriage, you would have to get to know a person so so well and over a very long period of time, and through living with them, all before marrying them in order to know whether that non-muslim would actually make all the compromises necessary and have complete respect and support for your faith(respect and support that takes so much learning to know how to do, studying the intricacies of the faith of Islam, or indeed any faith, is not easy even when you are doing it because you follow it let alone when doing for another person) This would not be allowed in Islam, as pre-marital relationships are forbidden. The method of getting to know a potential spouse that Islam allows, would not be sufficent in truly know whether you or this non muslim could handle such a marriage(and I don't belive they could) It is only natural for a non muslim that a muslim may have married or is related to, to expect at least some of the same compromises that they themselves have made. This is therefore not conducive to a Muslim fulfilling their faith and everything that goes with it. Like many other faiths, Islam believes and tells it's followers to believe that it is THE universal truth, without this kind of self-confidence, why would Muslims or potential Muslims have confidence in it? Why would we want to love and marry someone who doesn't hold the same love of Allah(swt) and Islam that we do? The best marriages are the ones where the values and beliefs and practices of both the husband and wife are the same, and the best way to achieve this if you are muslim is by marrying another muslim. This may not absolutely mean that you agree on every aspect of the faith, but through generally getting to know one another in a permissable way, you can soon find out if your understanding of Islam doesn't match another persons, and (if there are any) it usually isn't too difficult to iron out the minor differences later on. I would never every advise a muslim, male or female, to purpoesfully through marriage or otherwise, put themselves in teh situation that I am in. I have no choice as to whether my family is muslim or not, and the pain and suffering that goes along with a loved one being so different and mostly contradictory to you is heartbreaking. So to any muslim reading this, for your sake and for your future children's don't marry anyone other then another muslim, and I would also suggest sticking to your own school of thought when it comes to marriage as well inshallah.

Salams and du3as inshallah ^_^

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please "saintly_jinn23"

do not let the fact that you're living in the west blind you from reality.

with all due respect,whoever you regard as "sheikh" that allows a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man should use his turban for firewood.i mean he should take off his turban and burn it.

as for stressing the question why it is not allowed,it is enough to even ask.i do not even think answers are required to answer the obvious.does the Quran allow it?the answer is no.

I don't see why the Muslim man would be allowed to marry Christians and Jews and the Muslim woman not. I don't think the granting of the right to men over women to choose a spouse from among the People of the Book is very fair or Islamic. Because I believe it is permissible for men, I believe it is permissible for women. However, I think it is only natural for woman's family, Muslim or non-Muslim to be more discerning than the male's family because the woman's safety and freedom must be taken into account. So I think the marrying of a Muslim woman to a non-Muslim men should be approached more cautiously because it is the responsibility of whatever side the woman belongs to ensure that their female adherent is safe and protected more so than their males, who generally are able to protect themselves more easily.

If one doesn't believe that Muslim women should get married non-Muslim men, then they should also say it is impermissible for Muslim men to marry non-Muslims because if they fear for the woman from among their own's faith as much as they do, then they shouldn't put the People of the Book's women through the same ordeal that they aren't willing to put their own women through. Why would you say "Oh I do not want this Muslim woman to be tempted to become a non-Muslim by her husband," but then think it is perfectly permissible to have the Christians and Jews who don't follow Islam put their daughters through the same situation? That's cheating if you ask me. So I say let the women marry non-Muslims just as you do the men or don't let any non-Muslims marry any male or female Muslims at all.

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Salamun Alikum,

Brothers and sisters,

The topic that you have started is a very interesting 1

Especially seen from the view point of non-muslims.

It is first and foremost important to explain that Islam as a religion is also a way of life. It comes complete with guidance, set of laws and its own constitution.

If the muslim world today has not been able to implement this constitution it is in no way the fault of the religion.

Similarly to those who believe. Islam in itself is not lacking and as such needs no "New age thinking" or rectifications as I believe kingpomba wishes to guide us to. Albiet with the best of intentions.

If a topic or point becomes obscure we ourselves are not able to bring it into the proper light. It is not that the religion is lacking.

Womens rights in Islam is a whole new topic that can be opened together if this thread feels the need to extend into that territory.

As for Muslims marrying non-muslims, is must first be understood that all previous books of Allah i.e the old testement. The Bible , The Zabur are all constitutions sent to us by the ALL MIGHTY. Each according to the need of its own time untill the arrival of the Holy Quran, which is the book of guidance untill the day of judgement.

A constitution in it self is a way of life. It has its own sets of laws, a moral code, a section for jurispudence and so on and so forth.

Suffice it to say that when a new constitution is put forth the older version of it is discarded.

Hence the call of the Holy Quran to all previous religions to recongnize the truth of the Holy Book and convert to Islam.

Indeed the Quran has been preserved in the hearts of men (can also be taken as people) :) . In the Quran itself we have been guided to the fact that the scholars of the jews and the christians revealed less and hid more of their own constitutions to be able to controll the masses.

In view of this a jew is only a jew if he follows the commandments of the old testements and the same goes for the christians.

But when a christian divides the one and only GOD into three he ceases to be a christian and in effect becomes a polythiest. In which regard It would be absolutely unlawfull to marry a christian either a man or woman.

If a christian believes in only one GOD then this a excellent base for a religious upbringing for everything would stem from there.

If a jew discards the origional teachings and instead teaches himself and his children that they are the master race and can kill and pillage without consequence or such things that go against GOD or even humanity then in fact he has created a god in contention of the AL MIGHTY and as such ceases to be a jew and becomes a kaffir or a disbeliever.

Was Salam

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If one doesn't believe that Muslim women should get married non-Muslim men, then they should also say it is impermissible for Muslim men to marry non-Muslims because if they fear for the woman from among their own's faith as much as they do, then they shouldn't put the People of the Book's women through the same ordeal that they aren't willing to put their own women through. Why would you say "Oh I do not want this Muslim woman to be tempted to become a non-Muslim by her husband," but then think it is perfectly permissible to have the Christians and Jews who don't follow Islam put their daughters through the same situation? That's cheating if you ask me. So I say let the women marry non-Muslims just as you do the men or don't let any non-Muslims marry any male or female Muslims at all.

Finally, someone with some common sense, +1.

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First of guys, sorry for taking so long. Been very busy with my exams.

..... There might be a few non-Muslim men who would allow their Muslim wives complete freedom, but the majority would not. You must also try to understand that Islam is a religion for everyone in the world, and so it can't be based on an exceptional case where men are not the higher authorities in a relationship, such as in the West.

Ah, but yes, you see i live in the West! So, of course i look at things in term of the west and how they would work where i live. I don't think men not being the higher authorities should be something exceptional, it should be the norm.

I don't think you should make that exception either. Isn't the Q'uran a book for all times, all people and all places? It kind of nullifies that thought if you think along those lines. So, it's not very logical, thanks for your input though :).

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Well obviously he follows what he is told because he is lower in the hierarchy. That wasn't my question. But does the fact that he has to listen to someone else make him less important/powerful/equal of a human? Would he not have the same rights as his employer or for example, not be judged in the same way as his employer in court just because he takes orders from someone? That was my question...............I reiterate, obedience and submission does not mean you're not allowed to have your own opinion, or that you're not allow to have a discussion about things or that your husband has unconditional rights to make you do anything he wants. Like the Qur'an says: the woman has rights similar to those against her. One of her rights says she doesn't have to work in the house (it's recommended, but not obligatory). ...............

I see what you mean now, thanks for clearing that up. Makes a lot more sense now. Still with a worker, once you go home you no longer have to listen to him if you don't want to. In a marriage you always have to listen all the time...

For example, it is not within the rights of the woman to refuse her husband sexual pleasure. So she has to obey him in this matter.

What if she doesn't want to do such things though? :huh: This is rather concerning.

That said and this may sound a bit old-fashioned, but the primary place the woman is supposed to be in, is her home (please, I'm not saying she shouldn't or can't go out). It isn't her job to work.

Fair enough, i know many people like this where i live anyway. I don't see much wrong with it if it what the woman wishes. More and more lately than my parents generation for examples women are wanting their own career as well and aren't content with things like that. It's more moving in that direction rather than backwards in the other direction of staying home.

What else would he keep out of the house; dogs, pork? How would he explain to every non-Muslim friend that he has to maintain their distance from his wife? He has to get used to umpteen number of things, such as complete solitude for her at least five times a day when she can pray, her fasting for at least one entire month every year, during which she can not eat, drink or engage in sexual activity with him, her being allowed only Halal meats, etc. and the list continues.

I stand by my belief in love, if he really loved her, he could definitely do these things. I'm sure he wouldn't miss dogs all that much unless he was a dog enthusiast haha. A lot of women here are vegetarians too and i'm sure a lot of males here have the same problem, i'm sure they must find ways around it. I'm sure the man could stand to giving up pork at home, after all he knew what he was getting into. Not sure what you mean by distance, how much distance exactly? I think the odd casual conversation here and there is ok. I talk to Muslim women sometimes at university (shock horror) and one of my friends is Muslim and a female. A normal husband would want his friends to maintain distance as well, Christian, atheist, etc. I appreciate what you are saying though, it wouldn't be easy. If he loved her im sure he could manage :). This i believe in others may disagree.

Because of the religious complications that would arise, in such a marriage the usual case is that either one of the spouse converts to the other's faith or is just isn't a practicing follower of their religion. Either way, if it's the wife that does this, then the marriage is effecting her religion. A marriage that eventually leads to apostasy would definitely be forbidden.

These kind of slippery slope arguments aren't always that logical. I mean every marriage could technically lead to apostasy, even if the chance is very small could it not? I agree however that the chance might be higher with a spouse of a different religion. The kind of person who would leave Islam though probably wasn't 100% sure of it in the first place anyway. If you were a 100% true believing Muslim i doubt you would leave Islam, no matter what. Thats one thing i admire about Muslims, how strong their conviction on this topic is. Not like some Christians kind of drifting in and out of it or using god as some kind of "cosmic genie" every-once and awhile when things get bad..

Thanks for your time and you're long detailed responses :) .

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.....as for stressing the question why it is not allowed,it is enough to even ask.i do not even think answers are required to answer the obvious.does the Quran allow it?the answer is no.

I'm not sure if this is in response to my question or someone else. It is a very unsatisfying and philosophically bad argument to just say, i wont even respond to your question, because it doesn't even need to be asked. It's sort of like seeing a train heading straight for you and just saying don't worry about it. I think there are also multiple views on this topic, as you can see from the diversity in this thread. Thanks for your input though. I think the q'uran also compels you to question your faith and think about it rather than just accept it blindly like you are suggesting.

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To 'Dina': I don't really see much of an argument or response here...? It just seems like a statement.

Nothing wrong with going to the secular courts for a divorce is there? Especially since you said, in judaism for example it is hard to get a divorce under their law, even though the woman is well entitlted to one. So, this suggests that you believe she should go to the secular courts to get this done, if she is well entitlted as you say and the woman would have no problem with it. So, it seems you're both supporting and putting down the secular courts. I am a little confused, it is a bit contradictory.

Thanks for your time.

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I try to put some time and thought into these and these are very long to read sometimes. I'll respond to the rest in due season.

Thank you all for your time and sharing your views.

-kingpomba

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Kingpomba: thankyou for taking the time to read my post.

I am not quite certain what you require of contributors to your thread. I have responded to the question: "Why can't Muslim Women Marry People Of The Book?" by enumerating the reasons why they cannot, based upon Qur'anic Ayaat, and not subjective or personal preference and/or opinion. I welcome corrections to all errors and mistakes - but, I was not aware that you wished for some form of argument in favour or against..

A brief clarification for your benefit may suffice: Muslim women have rights which Jewish/Christian men are not obliged to provide. They have their own marital Laws and are required to abide by them.

I did not say that Jewish women are not permitted divorce - under Judaic Law they are. But in practice to obtain a divorce is exceedingly difficult. I wish not to engage in futile repetition, so will refrain from making any further comments about marriage here.

All matters pertaining to the rights and responsibilities of Muslim women and men ought to be referred to the Qur'an - it alone is the Ultimate, indeed only, Authority. However, if people wish to engage in prolonged discussions about this issue, then perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of this thread.

As Salaamu 'Alaykum

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I am a revert/convert to Islam and I converted to Islam at the age of 14, and I have been Muslim for 10 years now. During that time I have lived with my non muslim parents and family. I feel that this situation is very much akin to a muslim woman marrying a non muslim man (who will also presumably have a non muslim family) Let me tell you, I feel that with the majority of non muslims in the west in particular(I can only speak about the part of the world that I live in) they are impossible for a practicing Muslim(and if your are not following your religion, then ofcourse Allah-swt isn't pleased) to live in the same house as, and it is very difficult to have a fully meaningful relationship with them. Your whole philosophy and life goals, and the rules you follow are so very very different, just as has been listed in many posts above, plus many more practical and spiritual aspects to life are hindered.

Well for starters, this is kind of an argument from false analogy. Living with parents is pretty different to living with a spouse, I'm sure everyone will agree with me on this. You parents also saw you go from your previous religion to Islam as well and maybe they think its the wrong religion or think different things of you after you converted. However, if you were to go and find a Christian man now, you'd present yourself as a Muslim and thats all, he wouldn't have any past to think of like parents would.

Again, the relationship is very different, your parents are your elders and its not like you can "divorce" your parents no matter how bad it gets. The relationship between a parent and a child is not as equal as that between spouses and a spouse would be more willing to make sacrifices and comprises because he obviously wants to be willingly in a relationship with you.

Also, in terms of marriage, you would have to get to know a person so so well and over a very long period of time, and through living with them, all before marrying them in order to know whether that non-Muslim would actually make all the compromises necessary and have complete respect and support for your faith(respect and support that takes so much learning to know how to do, studying the intricacies of the faith of Islam, or indeed any faith, is not easy even when you are doing it because you follow it let alone when doing for another person) This would not be allowed in Islam, as pre-marital relationships are forbidden. The method of getting to know a potential spouse that Islam allows, would not be sufficient in truly know whether you or this non Muslim could handle such a marriage(and I don't believe they could) It is only natural for a non Muslim that a muslim may have married or is related to, to expect at least some of the same compromises that they themselves have made.

The same could apply to a Muslim man. He could seem very nice and cheerful on dates but after you get married and are allowed to be alone together in a house, it could be a totally different situation. He could be abusive to you in the privacy of the home. It's not like people would show bad traits like these on dates but they definitely could slowly emerge. I've seen this happen a lot regardless of religion, of course everyone is going to be the nice guy on dates, of course everyone is going to shower and shave every day on dates, Of course they'll look like the utmost best Muslims they can be and be all nice and calm. Once you get married and you're both comfortable hidden bad traits could emerge in the Muslim or Non-Muslims. So, this isn't really much of a valid argument, the method of getting to know your spouse has flaws for both Muslim and non-Muslim partners.

This is therefore not conducive to a Muslim fulfilling their faith and everything that goes with it. Like many other faiths, Islam believes and tells it's followers to believe that it is THE universal truth, without this kind of self-confidence, why would Muslims or potential Muslims have confidence in it? Why would we want to love and marry someone who doesn't hold the same love of Allah(swt) and Islam that we do? The best marriages are the ones where the values and beliefs and practices of both the husband and wife are the same, and the best way to achieve this if you are muslim is by marrying another muslim.

It's not really fair to say this last line or two. It depends on the person, who would be a better partner for a muslim women:

A) A muslim man who gambles and is an adulterater (you cant claim every muslim out there is magically perfect, i'm sure there are a ton of bad muslims out there)

B)A Christian who is moral and does none of these things and is a good husband.

So, i don't think its fair to say every single time without exception that marrying a Christian is not conductive to a Muslim fulfilling their faith.

You would want to marry them? Because you love the person of course silly.

Are you saying you know for sure you automatically won't love anyone who isn't a muslim? That might be fine for you but others might not act like that, think like that or be in situations like that.

What if a Muslim girl loves an honest, moral, accommodating, Christian man? Why shouldn't she be able to marry him? Just because his religion is different she should have to give up on her love? That isn't tolerance, especially emphasising the fact he will accommodate things.

Also, next time if you have some spare time i'd really appreciate it if you split your writing up into paragraphs :), it just makes it a lot easier for me and everyone else to read and understand :).

Thanks for your input.

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If a jew discards the origional teachings and instead teaches himself and his children that they are the master race and can kill and pillage without consequence or such things that go against GOD or even humanity then in fact he has created a god in contention of the AL MIGHTY and as such ceases to be a jew and becomes a kaffir or a disbeliever.

I agreed with some parts of your post and was very interested in replying untill i saw this line. I refuse to dignify that kind of bigoted, misguided hatred with a response. The whole master race thing is almost nazi in thinking. This kind of intolerance makes the world a worse place, please try to reconsider the fact that they are humans just like you and me. They're not out to get you, they wake up, talk to their family, get breakfast and go to work like we all do. They're no different, they share the same struggles and joys as you and i.

Why did the mod team let something like this through... :/ I thought this forum was meant to be filtered? No point deleting it now i guess. You cant recover the words after they have been said.

This is just plain wrong and i will make my stance against it well known.

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If one doesn't believe that Muslim women should get married non-Muslim men, then they should also say it is impermissible for Muslim men to marry non-Muslims because if they fear for the woman from among their own's faith as much as they do, then they shouldn't put the People of the Book's women through the same ordeal that they aren't willing to put their own women through. Why would you say "Oh I do not want this Muslim woman to be tempted to become a non-Muslim by her husband," but then think it is perfectly permissible to have the Christians and Jews who don't follow Islam put their daughters through the same situation? That's cheating if you ask me. So I say let the women marry non-Muslims just as you do the men or don't let any non-Muslims marry any male or female Muslims at all.

I'd like to thank Saintly Jinn23 for his very useful and well thought through contributions.

This seems to be a very logical point to me and it rather poetically sums up what i, also, believe on this subject.

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I agreed with some parts of your post and was very interested in replying untill i saw this line. I refuse to dignify that kind of bigoted, misguided hatred with a response. The whole master race thing is almost nazi in thinking. This kind of intolerance makes the world a worse place, please try to reconsider the fact that they are humans just like you and me. They're not out to get you, they wake up, talk to their family, get breakfast and go to work like we all do. They're no different, they share the same struggles and joys as you and i.

Why did the mod team let something like this through... :/ I thought this forum was meant to be filtered? No point deleting it now i guess. You cant recover the words after they have been said.

This is just plain wrong and i will make my stance against it well known.

Well dear

What is plain wrong is your naivety.

You mean to tell me that jewish teachings don't say that the jews are a blessed race above all humans.

That because of their past sufferings at the hands of rulers that they are a forgiven race destined for heaven as long as they don't go against a few commandments.

That they do not consider anyone but jews to be protected and qualifying under the laws of those commandments.

Isn't it true that you can only be born a jew.

If a person is taught such things can you imagine what kind of irresponsibility this breeds towards others.

These very beliefs of the jews are condemed in the Quran.

Im sure that jews are also people just like you and me. But I'll really belive it when THEY say it.

You say my words are bigoted. Perhaps. Does not retain from the fact that its true.

Are they out to get me. Well religions have been warring for centuries, they still are. Do we need a reminder of Bush's speeches.

Do I hate all Jews. Absolutely not, in this post I have only stated their beliefs not mine.

Salam

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