Muslims Vs Atheists

[Papples]

What would happen to atheists if Muslims were able to establish a worldwide caliphate?

Some people have told me that Muslims would kill all atheists, others have told me that Muslims would do nothing. Obviously, both of these cannot be true at the same time. What would happen to people like me if Muslims were to eclipse the West in political, military, and economic power? I'd like scriptural references if possible, not just random peoples' opinions.

[When will you be back?]

The Quran is clear in NOT imposing religions:

áóÇ ÅößúÑóÇåó Ýöí ÇáÏöøíäö ۖ ÞóÏú ÊóÈóíóøäó ÇáÑõøÔúÏõ ãöäó ÇáúÛóíöø ۚ Ýóãóäú íóßúÝõÑú ÈöÇáØóøÇÛõæÊö æóíõÄúãöäú ÈöÇááóøåö ÝóÞóÏö ÇÓúÊóãúÓóßó ÈöÇáúÚõÑúæóÉö ÇáúæõËúÞóìٰ áóÇ ÇäúÝöÕóÇãó áóåóÇ ۗ æóÇááóøåõ ÓóãöíÚñ Úóáöíãñ

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

So an Islamic state would not impose all its citizens to be muslim. Nonetheless, there might be specific taxes, and obviously making sure there is no creating trouble and propagating false beliefs..

Although this applied for other faiths at the time of the Prophet (s). I'm not sure about atheists...

[Papples]

A tax is compulsion. It's not the same degree of compulsion as a death threat, but it is still compulsion.

I'd like to see verses from the Qu'ran that relate to the treatment of atheists, if they exist. And if they do not exist, I'd like to see some documentation regarding the current understanding(s) of how to treat atheists.

Edited May 30, 2011 by Papples

[Guest]

It goes into far more detail and context than what you are probably asking, but it's worth it to put it all in perspective.

[Papples]

This does not answer my question. He talks about other faiths, but says nothing about people with no faith.

[PeaceLoving]

I'd like to see verses from the Qu'ran that relate to the treatment of atheists, if they exist. And if they do not exist, I'd like to see some documentation regarding the current understanding(s) of how to treat atheists.

This forum is especially meant for discussions relating to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. There is another forum known as the 'Philosophy, Atheism/Theism & Other Interfaith Dialogue' forum and that is where you should have opened this thread.

Anyway, in response to your concern, the Quran does have specific instructions for atheists, idol-worshippers and people of other faiths. The drift seems to ask Muslims to stay away from the first two as best as we can and to be wary of other theists, but in all cases, to treat them kindly and relate to them in peace and courtesy when required to do so.

Here are some brief references in two parts, firstly those that apply to all men and women, and secondly, those that apply to people of other faiths, unbelievers (atheists) and idol-worshippers. The complete text of the verses will be available in any standard translation.

Rules for all men and women – Muslims, people of other faiths, idol-worshippers and atheists

• 2:11 & 7:85 Do not make mischief
  
• 2:83 Speak kindly to all men.
  
• 2:85 Do not dispossess people of their rightful possessions
  
• 2:188 Do not appropriate the properties of others to yourself and do not bribe judges.
  
• 2:275-6, 2:278, 3:130, 4:161 & 30:39 Do not charge interest on loans
  
• 2:224 Seek peace with all men.
  
• 2:267-274 Do not give old hand-me-downs in charity.
  
• 2:264&4:38 Do not do good to be seen by people.
  
• 2:280 If debtor is in difficulties, re-schedule the debt and write it off, if possible.
  
• 3:134 & 42:37 Repress your anger and forgive people.
  
• 4:86 Greet people with greater courtesy than they greet you
  
• 4:112, 24:6-9, 24:23 & 33:58 Do not accuse anyone falsely.
  
• 5:2 & 5:8 Be just even to enemies
  
• 5:32 Do not kill the innocent
  
• 5:45 & 16:126 Forego the right to retaliate.
  
• 6:152 Speak the truth even if it goes against your own relatives
  
• 7:199 Forgive people, persuade them to do good but stay away from them.
  
• 8:61 If they are inclined to peace, then do so too.
  
• 9:34-5, 28:76 & 70:18 Do not hoard
  
• 13:22, 23:96, 28:54 & 41:34 Respond to the evil actions of men with goodness.
  
• 15:85Forgive gracefully
  
• 16:125 Discuss and debate politely
  
• 17:37, & 31:18 Do not show off
  
• 24:22 Forgive those who wrong you
  
• 24:27 Do not enter people’s homes unless you have their express permission.
  
• 25:72 Refrain from giving false witness
  
• 49:11 Do not laugh at others or address them in a derogatory way.
  
• 49:12 Do not be unnecessarily suspicious of people’s intentions.
  
• 49:12 Do not spy on people or speak behind their back
  
• 49:13 Do not spy on anyone or laugh at them
  
• 70:32 Do not violate trusts and agreements
  

.

Rules for specific groups of people - people of other religions, idol-worshippers and atheists

• 2:109 Forgive the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) who try to mislead you
  
• 3:139 & 48:29 Be firm and unyielding when they try to mislead you
  
• 3:186 Be patient when unbelievers (idol-worshippers and atheists), or The People of the Book try to annoy you.
  
• 4:63 Stay away from them but speak to then kindly anyway.
  
• 4:140 If they indulge in vain talk, leave their assembly, until they have changed the subject.
  
• 9:7 As long as they are true to you, be true to them.
  
• 17:128 If you decide to stay away from them, speak to them kindly anyway.
  
• 20:130 & 31:17 Bear patiently what they say
  
• 25:63 Greet the ignorant (read : detractors) with the word of peace.
  
• 37:178 Leave them alone for a while
  
• 73:10 Avoid them gracefully and bear with them patiently
  
• 86:17 Deal with them calmly and leave them alone.
  

[BostonJew]

The Quran is clear in NOT imposing religions:

áóÇ ÅößúÑóÇåó Ýöí ÇáÏöøíäö ۖ ÞóÏú ÊóÈóíóøäó ÇáÑõøÔúÏõ ãöäó ÇáúÛóíöø ۚ Ýóãóäú íóßúÝõÑú ÈöÇáØóøÇÛõæÊö æóíõÄúãöäú ÈöÇááóøåö ÝóÞóÏö ÇÓúÊóãúÓóßó ÈöÇáúÚõÑúæóÉö ÇáúæõËúÞóìٰ áóÇ ÇäúÝöÕóÇãó áóåóÇ ۗ æóÇááóøåõ ÓóãöíÚñ Úóáöíãñ

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

So an Islamic state would not impose all its citizens to be muslim.

What if the worldwide caliphate was led by the Almohads?

[RedWaterCup]

The same thing if Jews controlled the world or Chirstians or Hindus. Every religion has sects in it. Some sects are tolerant and others are not. Some athiests would be killed and others would be treated with respect.

If let's say the world was run by a real, pure Islamic empire (doesn't exist now) than athiests would obviously be allowed to live their lives just as they always have.

[Pascal]

I divided it into 2 parts because i have less belief and knowledge in what i written in part 2 and it also waffles on a bit.

Part 1:

The athiests would be allowed to live and i doubt they all would be excuted, if the caliphate is run purely according to islamic law.

However, it is very easy for corruption to take over or just hate/dislike of the athiests and some bad things could happen. The holy roman empire was meant to be a theocratic state, much like a caliphate. In theory, in the holy roman empire everything should of been all nice and dandy but they got corrupt or read the scriptures looking for something they wanted to find to justify it and they found it. This has the potential to happen under a caliphate ruled by imperfect humans, i'm sure no one would disagree with me here.

It also depends how far the caliphate goes. If the caliphate only imposes islamic law on muslims there would be much less of a problem, if however it imposes islamic law on everyone... that could be a very big problem. Not many non-muslims would at all like to live under the rules of a book which isn't their own and a religion they never signed up to in the first place, that would be more or less opression to them and taking away the rights they otherwise would of had in a secular state. It would be very bloody in that case if the caliphate banned kafir drinking alcohol or made the women belonging to kafir(non muslims) wear full on niqabs (the kind of islamic dress that pretty much covers everything, as far as im aware), then of course they'd be upset.

Muslims would just as equally be upset with a situation where there was maybe a global hindu empire pehaps and they were forced to live under hindu rules.

Part 2:

This is a more unique situation as far as i know because islam has a very strong legal tradition with a lot of rules, most of the other modern day traditions would have a much harder time becomming a theocracy.

Also, at the same time if the world suddenly became a global caliphate a lot of people would be deprived of things they otherwise would of been able to do. As opposed to if the world became a global christian theocracy, most of the people in the world wouldn't really lose many privelages. There would be alochol around if they wanted it, there would be pork around if they wanted it. There would be no *theological basis* for taxing people of other faiths in this, global hypothetical christian empire. That isn't to say they wouldn't be corrupt and do that but it isn't codified as part of the laws like it is in islam.

How would i feel about this personally being an agnostic? I wouldn't like it at all. It's not because im anti-islam. I have many muslim friends and Australia is a very very multicultral place. I'm infavour of a *Secular* state. It's not a christian state, not a buddhist state or not a muslim state, for my idea of a secular state, religion doesn't even come into play, they don't even think about religion and leave it up to being a personal thing to the individual. This is what i would want, i love it so much i would defend against any attack to try errode the secular state i live in. If such a global caliphate was to come around you'd find me in some kind of resistance movement fighting the government. That might sound harsh but to my muslim brothers out there think about how would you feel if you were suddenly forced to live under a pagan rule for example and go by their traditions? You would not like it either and it is right to fight for what you believe in, i don't think anyone would argue with me here.

Another thing that would also be important would be, will they impose islamic law on non-muslims, if they don't, i don't really see much of an issue with it. I'm still not a fan but it's not like its unbearable. That said im not sure if an islamic state would allow to completely parrarell systems to run in one country...sure the muslims live under islamic law and have to be all good and pure but the athiest is still free to open up a casino or a strip club or sell all the alcohol he likes (i am in favour of these things, not because i agree with them, i don't but because i am in favour of freedom). That would seem pretty hippocrticial of the state, after all the purpose of a caliphate would be to create a perfect enviroment for its citizens to nourish their islamic faith in. I think if a global caliphate were to take over (i doubt this would happen, maybe they could take over a few countries or even a region but not the world...) they would impose islamic law on non-muslims as well because of the above reasons and i'd be dead against that. I'm also sure a few of the muslims here would be as well.

Just my 2 cents.

-kingpomba

Edited June 2, 2011 by kingpomba