Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Interactions With Non-mahram

Rate this topic


Ruq

Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member

Salams, i have some confusion about intertection with non-mahrams. Regarding friendships/aquaintances with the opposite gender and interactions with such, could some one spell out to me what is deffo haram, what is deffo halal and what is discouraged and whats contentious and under dispute?

I need info with regards to types of meetings (chatting online, meeting within groups and meeting non-mahram 1 to 1) and how much 'ambiguity' matters in your friendships, e.g do you have to be 100% sure that the other person has no sexual interest in you what so ever? that kind of thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

(wasalam)

As long as you know you won't fall into haraam, then I think the rules say it's ok.

You need to differentiate between friend and colleague/classmate.

Having a proper friend who you hang out with of the opposite gender should be avoided.

Having a professional relationship with the opposite gender where you only talk about what's necessary (such as work) is fine.

With regards to online, treat it as real life. Speak to them in a way that you are expected to speak to them in real life. People have the tendency to say things online that they wouldn't say in real life which is stupid. Just because you have a screen in front of you doesn't mean you throw away the etiquette of interacting with the opposite gender.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Good points Replica especially the last para.

When talking to Namahram always be on guard. what you talk, the way to say those things, your eye contact, body language, gestures,everything counts and comes in hijab.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

Thanks for replies. What constitutes as 'proper' friend though? what if its someone from a work place but theres no work related reason for the meeting, like, youre not having to work on something together, but you know them from the work and will probably mostly talk about work related stuff? If you know you arent attracted to one another can you not just talk/socialise in any which way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Bismillah

I may have posted this lesewhere, if you read the commentary of Surah An-Nur in the Quran, it explicitly states that Islam does not allow free-mixing of non-mehram men and women. There are certain women made mahram for men and certain men made mahram for women whom can interact in their respective appropriate ways. Belwo is some information:

(Qur'an: Chapter 24an-Nur (the Light),, Verses 30-31) says “And tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to [those relatives who fall within bounds of close relationship explained in the Qur’an]...”

Speaking with non-Mahrams

From a fatwa by Imam Khumayni: A woman can talk to a non-mahram man given the conditions below:

· Not for out of a desire to satisfy one’s lustful pleasure

· No chance of falling into haraam

· Not with intention of enticing that man into doing something haraam

· Not speak in a way that is arousing, for example making her voice thin and soft and inviting so that he desires her

· Not say things that are arousing

Looking at non-Mahrams

From the Prophet (s): þO Ali, the first glance is for you while the second is against you and not for you.

From hadith: If you look illegally at someone else’s non Mahram, someone will look at yours.

From the risalah: Looking at someone with lust or fear of falling into haram is haram.

Chatting with a na-mahram on the internet and making Girl friends.

Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Fazel Lankarani ....

Q1: Is it permissible for a girl to chat with a na-mahram on the internet?

A1: If there is a fear that a girl or a boy may be drawn towards sin, it is not permissible. Normally chatting ends up in a sin for both sides.

Q2: Is it permissible for a boy to have a girl friend?

A2: It is not permissible for a boy to make girl friends as he might fall into a sin or indulge in sinful acts.

you can refer http://www.lankarani.../eng/index.html

Reply Of Nayab Ayatullah Sistani Huujatul islam Sayyid mooswi

Question: salamunalikum is chatting on net with na mahram is haram? i am in taqleed of ayatullah seestani? Ah

Answer: Assalamu alaikum wr wb Chatting with Na Mahram is Haraam , whether online or on phone or face to face, or by writting letters or emails, etc, unless it is in a necessary matter like learning essential skils, taking medical or legal advice, etc. Wassalamu alaikum wr wb

Ref: http://www.themaliks...on.asp?faq=3111

Question: there was a question of are we allowed to talk to brothers on msn and you answered as no. but wat if that brother was a cousin or family friend from overseas and you want to ask how everything is going? and are we completly forbidden to talk to them (males) or only about unlawful topics? wat if u want to talk about wat they want to do for their weekend? [/b

Answer: Assalamu alaikum wr wb Talking with opposite sex is allowed in necessary matters and not just chatting and passing time. It is Haraam to talk in any way which may lead to intimate feeling from any of them. Wassalamu alaikum wr wb

Rulings of Grand Ayatullah Sistani

Social Interaction

Q5) Can males and females work together in an organization or not?

A5) If there is fear of falling in sin, it is not permissible.

Q6) I was wondering if it is haram to go to a party where girl's as well as boys attend. The girls may be dressed inappropriately but no drinking is involved?

A6) Based on obligatory precaution, it is not permissible, unless an illicit act is not carried out.

Q7) I wanted to know about friendship norms in Islam about females?

A7) Friendship with her is not permissible. Because in such friendship man is not immune from sin.

Q9) Are shaking of hands with girls allowed?

A9) It is not permissible.

There are many reasons and rewards for following the prescribed rules, other than keeping the society and family units strong, pure an dhealthy.

wasalam

Malek

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
  • Veteran Member

Shokran Malek =) it seems that often the over riding factor is whether you think an interaction could lead to haram, is this correct? so if you fear it could lead to haram you are certainly to refrain and only interact with non-mahrams that you are certain no impropriety could occur with?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

(bismillah)

(salam)

+1

great post brother. Jazakallah for sharing.

(wasalam)

Bismillah

I may have posted this lesewhere, if you read the commentary of Surah An-Nur in the Quran, it explicitly states that Islam does not allow free-mixing of non-mehram men and women. There are certain women made mahram for men and certain men made mahram for women whom can interact in their respective appropriate ways. Belwo is some information:

(Qur'an: Chapter 24an-Nur (the Light),, Verses 30-31) says “And tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to [those relatives who fall within bounds of close relationship explained in the Qur’an]...”

Speaking with non-Mahrams

From a fatwa by Imam Khumayni: A woman can talk to a non-mahram man given the conditions below:

· Not for out of a desire to satisfy one’s lustful pleasure

· No chance of falling into haraam

· Not with intention of enticing that man into doing something haraam

· Not speak in a way that is arousing, for example making her voice thin and soft and inviting so that he desires her

· Not say things that are arousing

Looking at non-Mahrams

From the Prophet (s): þO Ali, the first glance is for you while the second is against you and not for you.

From hadith: If you look illegally at someone else’s non Mahram, someone will look at yours.

From the risalah: Looking at someone with lust or fear of falling into haram is haram.

Chatting with a na-mahram on the internet and making Girl friends.

Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Fazel Lankarani ....

Q1: Is it permissible for a girl to chat with a na-mahram on the internet?

A1: If there is a fear that a girl or a boy may be drawn towards sin, it is not permissible. Normally chatting ends up in a sin for both sides.

Q2: Is it permissible for a boy to have a girl friend?

A2: It is not permissible for a boy to make girl friends as he might fall into a sin or indulge in sinful acts.

you can refer http://www.lankarani.../eng/index.html

Reply Of Nayab Ayatullah Sistani Huujatul islam Sayyid mooswi

Question: salamunalikum is chatting on net with na mahram is haram? i am in taqleed of ayatullah seestani? Ah

Answer: Assalamu alaikum wr wb Chatting with Na Mahram is Haraam , whether online or on phone or face to face, or by writting letters or emails, etc, unless it is in a necessary matter like learning essential skils, taking medical or legal advice, etc. Wassalamu alaikum wr wb

Ref: http://www.themaliks...on.asp?faq=3111

Question: there was a question of are we allowed to talk to brothers on msn and you answered as no. but wat if that brother was a cousin or family friend from overseas and you want to ask how everything is going? and are we completly forbidden to talk to them (males) or only about unlawful topics? wat if u want to talk about wat they want to do for their weekend? [/b

Answer: Assalamu alaikum wr wb Talking with opposite sex is allowed in necessary matters and not just chatting and passing time. It is Haraam to talk in any way which may lead to intimate feeling from any of them. Wassalamu alaikum wr wb

Rulings of Grand Ayatullah Sistani

Social Interaction

Q5) Can males and females work together in an organization or not?

A5) If there is fear of falling in sin, it is not permissible.

Q6) I was wondering if it is haram to go to a party where girl's as well as boys attend. The girls may be dressed inappropriately but no drinking is involved?

A6) Based on obligatory precaution, it is not permissible, unless an illicit act is not carried out.

Q7) I wanted to know about friendship norms in Islam about females?

A7) Friendship with her is not permissible. Because in such friendship man is not immune from sin.

Q9) Are shaking of hands with girls allowed?

A9) It is not permissible.

There are many reasons and rewards for following the prescribed rules, other than keeping the society and family units strong, pure an dhealthy.

wasalam

Malek

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Basic Members

Salams, i have some confusion about intertection with non-mahrams. Regarding friendships/aquaintances with the opposite gender and interactions with such, could some one spell out to me what is deffo haram, what is deffo halal and what is discouraged and whats contentious and under dispute?

I need info with regards to types of meetings (chatting online, meeting within groups and meeting non-mahram 1 to 1) and how much 'ambiguity' matters in your friendships, e.g do you have to be 100% sure that the other person has no sexual interest in you what so ever? that kind of thing.

there r religious rules against mixing with opposite sexes but you can talk to them for professional reasons and for marriage

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

It can also be a cultural thing that comes into play, im sure far more % of young muslim women in america have male friends as compared to another strictly islamic country.

You don't have to take everything 100% literally, few Christians believe its alright to stone people for working on the sabbath but its in the bible. You should value you're own logic and reasoning in addition to scripture (not websites that hardly make any use of scripture or just cherry pick facts) and decide for yourself. After all you're the one who it should affect so i think you should just sit down and think about this inside yourself for a moment.

You may disregard me as a kafir but remember, we are all human. We all go through the same struggles.

I'm not a Muslim and I've never once found myself in any kind of sexual situation with anyone i even remotely consider a friend and thats me having no rules or anything i have to abide by. Even with all my friends, if you consider someone as a "friend" those things just don't happen. You just don't casually chat to someone about soccer or your favourite food and wind up having sex the next minute.

Even if it were to get to the point where something sexual would happen, which it almost certainly wouldn't (especially if you only meet in public and such) you would realise along the way. You just don't suddenly wind up in bed, a long chain of things happens before then and if you knew in your heart it was wrong you'd stop it right there anyway.

One more friend can't hurt, you both enrich each-others lives and are there for each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Like i said you may dismiss me as a kafir but at least think about what i have to say.

If Islam is about love it certainly cant be against friendship with your fellow human.

------------------------------------------------------------------

What would happen if you have already made good friends with a non-mahram then you realise it's a grey area and not entirely halal but not entirely haram, what would you do? If you spent years being friends?

Imagine how the other person would feel about that or how you'd even feel about that?

Just a little thought experiment. (liberal isn't a bad thing)

-kingpomba

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

It can also be a cultural thing that comes into play, im sure far more % of young muslim women in america have male friends as compared to another strictly islamic country.

You may disregard me as a kafir but remember, we are all human. We all go through the same struggles.

I'm not a Muslim and I've never once found myself in any kind of sexual situation with anyone i even remotely consider a friend and thats me having no rules or anything i have to abide by. Even with all my friends, if you consider someone as a "friend" those things just don't happen. You just don't casually chat to someone about soccer or your favourite food and wind up having sex the next minute.

Even if it were to get to the point where something sexual would happen, which it almost certainly wouldn't (especially if you only meet in public and such) you would realise along the way. You just don't suddenly wind up in bed, a long chain of things happens before then and if you knew in your heart it was wrong you'd stop it right there anyway.

Hopefully no one is disregarding you as a kafir!! your thoughts are interesting...

One drink does not usually get one person drunk, and one conversation will not necessarily lead to bed. but that doesn't change the fact that when it adds up, inevitably there are some cases where it does lead to something more, and when it keeps adding up, slowly and gradually society begins to face problems such as those we have in western countries today.

The problem lies in where you say 'you knew in your heart it was wrong' - because that feeling of what is 'wrong and right' can only handle so much. at one point, desire overtakes you and you may fall into sin - everyone is human. Islam is a preventative religion, it tries to ensure you are not put in situations where your intellect looses control over your body. this is the beauty of it. One drink too many, and you are drunk and no longer in control. One dodgy conversation, and suddenly desires are affecting your thinking abilities..

The results are seen so obviously in our western culture, I don't even think I need to expand there...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Ah, first of all thanks for taking the time to respond, to be honest i thought everyone would brush aside what i said because it doesn't fit what they believe so this is rather refreshing.

I see the point you're trying to make and i do understand it (at least i hope i do). It really depends what part of western society you're talking about its not all gambling and sex. I went to a catholic high-school (if you want to hear more of my story its under the about me section of my profile) and most people didn't generally do those kind of things, you had the odd person or two of course but thats expected.

You actually make a rather convincing argument i don't have much to say back about it really haha :)

While the relative freedom of western society causes a lot of problems, i think trying to suppress those kind of thoughts and actions would also conversely cause problems. It is just logical and im sure someone with as good reasoning skills as yours wouldn't argue either system isn't without its problems. It's more about which systems problems are more acceptable or more likable to the individual and i think thats where we would disagree.

I also agree that just using probability eventually something is bound to happen in one of those situations but 99% of those times you stop before it gets to those kind of things. If you wanted to do those things in your heart of course they'd happen a lot more than 1% of the time but if you didn't want to it wouldn't happen heaps and heaps and heaps. It's sort of like medicines, i'm looking into studying pharmacology, a medicine might cure 99.9% of people but for 0.01% of the time it might kill someone, is it worth denying that medicine (analogous to friendship in this case) to 999 people to only save one from a freak accident?

While it is a very good line of thinking and you phrased it much better than a friend once did i still think it kind of implies we don't have enough self control or we shouldn't trust our self control which Allah gave us. Sure, the whisperings of iblis will always be there but surely its a much better thing to come across them and then conquer them too.

Still i don't see many things wrong with having friends of the opposite sex, i haven't done anything of that nature with someone who id call a friend. It's just not how it works for me, i really dont blur the lines because then it can get really messy. I'm sure a lot people would agree.

Of course you have your fair share of "players" and all that but you'll always have people moving in a different direction.

Anyway, i have a lot of close female friends and i really can't imagine life without them, so you can see why this might be a painful thought to me. They really have all enriched my life in one special way or another.

I know this doesn't fit with the Islamic way of thinking but i am against one night stands with strangers but if you love each other and have known each other for awhile then i don't see a problem. (Sort of like the christian line of thinking called "situation ethics")

Another thing my friend once told me "But you're looking at this from a western perspective!" i could say the same in reverse to them about an islamic perspective haha.

I value your thoughts and you did make a persuasive argument but i think we'll have to agree to disagree, amicably of course. I don't see much wrong with having friends of the opposite sex and sure these things may happen occasionally but i don't think its worth abandoning forging friendships like that.

Thanks for your time :) .

-kingpomba

(I don't know if its good to keep discussing this here, i probably hijacked this poor mans thread)

(It's rather late here, this whole post is probably an incoherent mess..apologies )

Edited by kingpomba
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

It can also be a cultural thing that comes into play, im sure far more % of young muslim women in america have male friends as compared to another strictly islamic country.

You don't have to take everything 100% literally, few Christians believe its alright to stone people for working on the sabbath but its in the bible. You should value you're own logic and reasoning in addition to scripture (not websites that hardly make any use of scripture or just cherry pick facts) and decide for yourself. After all you're the one who it should affect so i think you should just sit down and think about this inside yourself for a moment.

You may disregard me as a kafir but remember, we are all human. We all go through the same struggles.

I'm not a Muslim and I've never once found myself in any kind of sexual situation with anyone i even remotely consider a friend and thats me having no rules or anything i have to abide by. Even with all my friends, if you consider someone as a "friend" those things just don't happen. You just don't casually chat to someone about soccer or your favourite food and wind up having sex the next minute.

Even if it were to get to the point where something sexual would happen, which it almost certainly wouldn't (especially if you only meet in public and such) you would realise along the way. You just don't suddenly wind up in bed, a long chain of things happens before then and if you knew in your heart it was wrong you'd stop it right there anyway.

One more friend can't hurt, you both enrich each-others lives and are there for each other. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Like i said you may dismiss me as a kafir but at least think about what i have to say.

If Islam is about love it certainly cant be against friendship with your fellow human.

------------------------------------------------------------------

What would happen if you have already made good friends with a non-mahram then you realise it's a grey area and not entirely halal but not entirely haram, what would you do? If you spent years being friends?

Imagine how the other person would feel about that or how you'd even feel about that?

Just a little thought experiment. (liberal isn't a bad thing)

-kingpomba

i agree wit what u said and i belive the same thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I don't see the problem with discussing it here as it is totally relevant to the topic

I see it worthwhile continuing this discussion because you seem to be a man of reason, and thats why I have thought to reply some of your thoughts.

Firstly, it is obvious that suppressing these thoughts will undoubtedly and inevitably lead to problems in society - this is why the institution of marriage, and particularly early marriage, is so recommended in Islam and encouraged, to the extent that it secures 'half your faith' (as a narration by the Prophet pbuh suggests). Having said this, Islam doesn't suggest a total suppression either - it asks you to respect a women when you communicate with her by keeping your gaze down and by limiting the conversation to only where necessary (and this was previously discussed). What it doesn't ask is to shut women in the house and cut them off from society and progression, and this is where many muslims, under the banner of Islam, are actually causing worse problems in society.

Btw, you say that 99% of the time you can control yourself before it leads to such things - I'm not sure if I agree with this. I wouldn't say 99% of the time, and anyways, even if it is true, people don't usually want to control themselves. Generally in Western society there is nothing wrong with any interaction with the opposite sex, so where would they draw the lines and boundaries? and why would they? I know you say if you want it to happen, it would happen, but this is where the issue lies - most people want it to happen. This wasn't always the case, it happened gradually - some people wanted it to happen, and it did... and then it happened more and more... and then people questioned, well whats wrong with it anyway??... and without religion and guidelines, things declined and ended up the way we see them now. And are still getting worse and worse...

I keep mentioning the problems in society rather than in specific individuals, and the reason for this is exactly your next argument - there will always be the case where one person is 100% sure that engaging in conversations with the opposite sex is completely harmless, and has faith in the control he has over himself. Despite this confidence, Islam's rules are for the general muslim community and there are all kinds. Your intentions must be clean, but the rules of Islam are not special for you, or for me, but rather are universal for the whole Muslim Ummah.

There is also a problem in tailor-making the rules for yourself - i.e. "if I know I can trust myself, its fine" - because even the Prophet Yusuf when he was in a situation where he was tested with his desires, Allah says about him in the Quran "and he would have made for her, were it not that he had seen the manifest evidence of his Lord". I'm not saying that you are wrong and everyone has no self control - I'm saying that the guidelines of Islam are there to save you from being in a position where you loose control, and however much you can control yourself, there is still always the danger of falling into sin.

I respect that you have lots of good female friends, and I'm sure you are very close to them. In the past,I have had many very close male friends, and I know how painful it is to let go of these sentiments - but when you do it for the sake of something as eternally significant, important, and much much Greater than ourselves and our sentiments - the Lord of the Worlds - then there is obviously no comparison, regrets, and submission and sacrifice can only bring pleasure.

Edited by amirafatima
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

See, after discussing islam with my muslim friend, i came to a certain conclusion after awhile.

Islam is sort of like a metaphorical house of cards or a stack of fruit, this is just a metaphor. She kept telling me islam is a "complete system" for all aspects of your life and i indeed have read this elsewhere.

The problem with a house of cards is, it stands strong if every card is there. If you don't like one card and remove it, it all falls apart. I am not really in favour of early marriage, that removes one of the cards and the whole house falls.

If you don't marry early it leaves much longer times for these things to happen and kind of spoils the whole system.

I think also, personally limiting the conversation to "just business" and only what is necessary is a bit supressive in itself. Why shouldn't i be able to have fun with my female friends?

In regards to the 4th paragraph, we are starting to blur the lines between public politics and personal religion here. It is getting quiet confusing for me actually haha. I don't care if people don't want to control themselves, if they want to sleep with millions of women, thats up to them[see note 1, below] I don't agree with what they do but i don't think its up to me to legislate everyones behaviour. This is the essence of freedom afterall. Only i am responsible for my actions and only i should care about my actions (within sane limits of course, other people should care if i murder someone. You don't seem to be the kind of person to be dirty and take things out of context in an argument like this and i respect that, so i'm not afraid you'll do that, but i just thought i'd mention it for others reading). It works the same for other people, i knew people who did those kinds of things but its not up to me to tell them what to do. They are responsible for their own destiny, i am not religious but if there is a god, if they want to sin, it should be on their head, it should be only their fault and it shouldn't matter about anyone else. Also, "Society getting worse and worse" is really more of a subjective thing, it isn't really objective at all so its hard to argue. You could think its getting worse for certain reasons but i could think its getting better for certain reasons, we could both be right :) . Long as i am a good sincere person, inside myself, i am satisfied, i dont think i should go around telling others what to do, if they want to do those things it is up to them (again within reasons, laws, ect).

If you ask for my opinion personally about paragraph 5, i'm not sure if you are suggesting that these should be human made laws we enact and humans punish other humans for transgressions of these laws or that these are just general personal guidelines to live by. If you are suggesting human laws, i disagree with that. For you god laid down these rules and i personally think, only god should punish the transgression of them. Hardly any human is perfect or without sin, as the bible says "Let him without sin cast the first stone" (A metaphorical stone of punishment... not an actual stone i mean). Who among us is perfect or without sin? It would be hippocritical of us to punish others for this when really it should only be for god. So, i dont think we should forcefully impose muslim ethics on a society. It would be good if the society lived by them but it would be up to the individual if they wanted to or not and no one should punish them for their choice. (Secular "Social Democracy" is my political system of choice, the secular part is more important though. Its neither a christian state, a buddhist state, a hindu state or even an athiest state. For the secular state, religion doesn't even come into play and i believe it shouldn't mix with politics.)

If it is the second and you mean as personal guidelines to live by, sort of like a code of ethics, then i don't see much wrong with that. If you agree and believe in the muslim ethical system, then, by all means follow it. However, not everyone does, so it doesn't really matter to them.

I still think it is more virtuous for you to go by your self control and for Allah to judge you on that rather making rules preventing anything like this from happening in the first place, it really tests a persons character and faith, sort of like sickness does.

Also, please remember, i'm an agnostic :) . I do not believe in any god or divine rules, so i do not have a good reason at all to avoid my female friends, the idea just seems crazy to me because i don't have a good reason at all. Of course, i understand you do, because it is your faith and thats fine too. We are all different people with different lives. So, i don't think im getting rid of them any time soon.

You can't really convince me to give up my female friends because i have no religious backing for it, just as strongly as i can't convince you to go and keep a large amount of male friends, because you do have a religious backing for it.

So, while we can share our viewpoints, we can't really convince each other to change. Which is why i said, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree :) .

(Sorry i took so long to reply but i wanted to be able to sit down and think about this properly, been rather busy with exam study.)

-kingpomba

Notes:

[1] - Got rid of this might cause too much trouble. If person above me really wants to know you may PM me if you wish.

Edited by kingpomba
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Basic Members

(bismillah) (salam)

the thing is that u dont have to talk in a polite way or a sweet one to non mehrams but in a strict attitude...politeness would lead to wrong ideas in others mind as in surah ahzab u may refer it..a/c to agha sistani it is allowed to talk if their is no chance of getting involved in a wrong act...it is better to avoid their eye contact and in complete hijab...its better to avoid talking but in special purposes there is no problem..

thankyou

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

King pomba, as you have said there is no point in further discussing this, I shall not ...

but I leave you with this:

Your view of freedom is flawed in my opinion - the real freedom is not the ability to do whatever u want whenever u want it, because then you are merely a slave of ur tendencies and wants. it is following a set of rules that frees you from your passions and lower self, that is true freedom.

take care

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I wasn't really talking about personal freedom. More as freedom in society as a whole, if you set down a bunch of rules for society as a whole thats kind of restricting freedom, what if those people dont want to follow those rules.

If you think those rules are appropriate for yourself and you apply them to yourself, then you are exercising freedom, because you are living how you want to.

Long as you don't say everyone has to follow these rules, they should only follow them voulentarily.

Thats kind of point i was trying to make :).

Islam isn't problem free, people criticise the west or christians for having sexual partners they barely know but if a muslim really wanted to and he interpreted things that way ( i know not everyone does) you could just do nikah mu'tah a whole bunch of times. For me i don't really see much difference between that and sleeping with people you barely know if you wanted to do it that way. Sure theres a contract and some people say it is halal but for a person who doesn't believe those books or the islamic faith it doesn't really look much different to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, my friend baradar said a while ago, there are two kinds of freedom. "Freedom to" and "Freedom from".

It seems to me that when people talk about freedom, they usually emphasize the former the most, unless it is discussing something that cramps their style, than they cry foul and take refuge in the latter. They want everyone to have the "freedom to" practice whatever religion they want but at the same time want "freedom from" a state based on biblical law. Not realizing that by doing that they are restricting somebody else's "freedom to", even though they apparently claim to uphold (nearly) unrestricted "freedom to" as the zenith of human existence and of ultimate enlightenment. So even these free spirit and open minded people accept limitations, boundaries, and exceptions.

The question is how society will set these boundries and what should be agreed upon as a "freedom to" and "freedom from"

For example:

"Freedom to" - earn money, have a job, run for political office, write/speak academic pieces, etc

"Freedom from" - social corruption, crime, infringement of property, dangerous substances, etc

Islam sets its own "freedom to" and "freedom from" built on absolute and objective scientific grounds with a net positive effect on humanity. Clearly, if you decide to go Christian, agnostic, or whatever, you definitions of these will be dramatically variable, and will be susceptible to the whatever era, environment, personal opinion, or societal pressures are present at the time. Islam is free from this, where the above factors are accountable to Islam, rather than Islam being accountable to them. Everything else works in the opposite direction. In other words, everything revolves around Islam, and Islam does not revolve around anything.

So we don't even have to go into the particular issues like gender issues, social interaction, etc. The fact that the very methodology is already on shaky and unstable grounds is enough to question it even before opinions are raised. The winds will constantly change one direction to another all the time, why should I take any one of them more seriously than the other?

Edited by comrade khodadad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • Basic Members

Both are clearly fair points to make but I do feel it is dangerous for many Muslims to merely dismiss the issue as in "don't go there, if you talk to a girl, you WILL like her, then you WILL go out with her, then you WILL get her pregnant, then you WILL die/get chucked out the community/bring shame on your family/be doomed to failure (or a combination of all of those)"

There ought to be some sort of contingency plan in place. Without being rude the majority of people who give advice on this issue from experience have generally only ever talked to one person of the opposite sex who's not family and that tends to have been someone who ended being their spouse, it's a bit audacious in my view for these people to feel as if they have any real, competent insight into the issue.

Ultimately, there needs to be somewhere teenagers in particular can talk freely about this issue without people judging whereby solutions can be tailored to that person's issues.

I'm sorry if people feel I have been out of line but as a teenager, I really get irritated when others fail to empathise fully with the issues we face but still feel qualified enough to give advice; this is not directed at anyone in particular on this forum, just thinking out loud as it were. (and yes i'm aware this isn't solely a teenage issue).

What is the breaking point just out of interest would people say as to how many female friends on average one would need to end up having a relationship?

I mean think about it, there is a often this perception that a fair amount of Muslim boys and girls literally go out with the first guy/girl they become good friends with, but surely this is a product of the fact that we keep them so sheltered? I have non-Muslim friends who have a number of good female friends before they go out with any of them.

I think we underestimate the strength to resist temptation that strong faith in itself can have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

now a days it is a norm that you can talk with the non mahrams

in our families it is said that "let him allow inside he is just a servant"

lack of parenting is causing such questions

why do people feel that if they wont talk or (discuss studies) with non mahram boys and girls they can't progress

girls should ask others girls for help and guys should ask other guys for help.

plus i have seen that a simple interaction leads to a "serious" relation and when there are two people shaitan joins the party

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Gods Name

Ai...

Hihi :D

Damnit.

You talk to much.

And tell me to not talk to girls?

Uh...

I guess i have to respect your religion.

Maybe it is just that i am not intelligent enough, though able to speak. Or "open" enough, though extremely sexual (I am talking religion, so give me a break mods?).

I am too shy ... I have become more open recently and I found out in the end that I did not want that. It sucks. I mourned over my past where I was so shy and noone talked to me (I could not initiate a conversation). What I have been through is much more greater than the simple death, and I have lost not interest in sex but my pride has grown TOTALLY.

I guess I have recieved a service when I was not talked to?

Thanks all.

Can I talk like now?

I really don't know, because I probably need to not talk.

Peace

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

plus i have seen that a simple interaction leads to a "serious" relation and when there are two people shaitan joins the party

Exactly. Never be in a situation where you are alone with the namahram. As for online chatting, try not to chat late at night because at night is where you're most vulnerable and a few words can lead to something haram, so it's best to have the online chatting during conventional hours. Also, if you have any doubt that whilst your chatting something inappropriate would happen then try to have a few people in the room because when we are alone we tend to lose our inhibitions.

Edited by Anam Zahra
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the person you talk to is guarded by God?

[72.27] Except to him whom He chooses as an apostle; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,

[72.28] So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

Are you not doing something else?

I have not [Edited Out]INGS TAKEN ANYONE TO GOD BUT Allah.

If i can't talk to girl. Let the mods talk to me! We all have the same problem, but do you know what? ... Of course you don't. You are all weaklings.

Don't obey anyone but Allah. If they Marjis are servants of Allah, then obey them But what if not? You know you need not much impurity mixed with purity to defile the purity!

Therefore. Noone but Allah!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Gods Name

Peace and love.

Has not to be spoken.

Silence is all it takes

Putting down the fire

Leave it for Allah

And I am sorry

But I miss you guys

And its breaking my heart

:D

I guess i miss the girls more than the guys

Hihi...

But guys are allright in battle

Ai..

Please bow to your lord most high

Who is the most high?

...

Yeah him.

Bow.

Peace (sorry really)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest adilrizvi

In Gods Name

Ai...

Hihi :D

Damnit.

You talk to much.

And tell me to not talk to girls?

Uh...

I guess i have to respect your religion.

Maybe it is just that i am not intelligent enough, though able to speak. Or "open" enough, though extremely sexual (I am talking religion, so give me a break mods?).

I am too shy ... I have become more open recently and I found out in the end that I did not want that. It sucks. I mourned over my past where I was so shy and noone talked to me (I could not initiate a conversation). What I have been through is much more greater than the simple death, and I have lost not interest in sex but my pride has grown TOTALLY.

I guess I have recieved a service when I was not talked to?

Thanks all.

Can I talk like now?

I really don't know, because I probably need to not talk.

Peace

LOL... DUDE ... were you like tripping on acid or something when you made these posts or are you always like this? There is definitely something wrong with you.. Why are you even at a forum where people discuss religious issues.. you don't even belong here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 years later...
  • Moderators
On 5/10/2011 at 11:11 AM, Ruq said:

 If you know you arent attracted to one another can you not just talk/socialise in any which way?

All of the limitations are contingent on "if there is fear of falling into sin". It's better to err on the side of caution, but be reasonable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...