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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Quranists

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  • Advanced Member

Salam,

You can never be sure of your being on the Truth

This is true when you follow anything other than quran, you can never be sure you've made the right choice. This was my point about leaving your salvation to others, whether that be ahlul bait or anyone else. The quran attests that you are not to worry about sincere mistakes in understanding quran if you make the effort in 17/84.

- Even your understanding of those verses which you quote in your rejection of Hadith is an opinion. I, for example, have interpreted those verses as meaning something totally different.

What is your understanding those verses?

77:50 So in what hadith after it will they acknowledge?

My interpretation is also supported by the Qur'an - I provided that the Holy Book commands us to obey the Prophet's every word - and since authentic Hadith is his word, we must obey. So, it is a plausible interpretation.

It doesn't say obey the Prophet's every word. Please repost the reference so I can check again please. This view becomes inconsistent within the quran. The quran claims it is detailed. If that is so, what exactly was the Prophet instructing people in? If it was something that was within the quran then this refutes your claim. If he was instructing something that was not in quran, then it refutes the quran's own claim to be detailed. So your interpretation is not supported by quran, as far as I can tell.

And according to yourself, I am entitled to it, and if I am sincere, Allah (swt) will reward my efforts.

Indeed. But if you are following an inconsistent interpretation of quran knowingly then this is not sincere. Have you been able to reconcile verses that say quran is complete, all you need, and the only thing revealed to the messenger with verses that supposedly tell you to follow ahlul bait? If the Prophet and ahlul bait are giving commands, why does Allah say quran is detailed and a clarity for all matters? If Prophet and ahlul bait are explaining quran, why does Allah say He is the one that explains quran?

So, in reality, your claim that we should only restrict ourselves to the Qur'an is self-refuting, since according to my interpretation (plus the overwhelming majority of Muslims for 1400 years), the Qur'an points us to consider the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Ahlulbayt as well, since they are the Uswatun-Hasanah.

I fail to see the self-refuting bit, however your view of using outside sources must be justified through quran. The quran never mentions the sunnah of the Prophet nor the sunnah of ahlul bait, only the sunnah of Allah. The quran never says ahlul bait are uswatun hasanatun. Note the complaint of the Prophet in the hereafter 25/30. No mention of his sunnah or that of his family.

In addition to the Qur'an, my interpretation is supported by history, 1400 years, and the words of the Prophet and the Imams which have been recorded in history,

2/170 And when it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they say, “Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing.” Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

The quran does not tell you to follow 1400 years of history, it instructs you to follow quran.

by the same people who memorised the Qur'an and left the Holy Book for us to read today.

Perhaps, but it is only quran that has been protected, no other tradition.

Your interpretation is unsupported by these significant evidence. Therefore, rationally speaking, I am basing my faith on stronger evidence than you are, and I can always defend my faith and say, "I chose that for which Allah provided the greatest evidence".

I would argue that your faith is inconsistent with quranic instruction. You are commanded to follow quran and not follow any other hadith. The greatest evidence is the quran itself, and it instructs you to follow it alone.

People who wish to amend the Book are mentioned in quran also:

10/15 And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."

The habit of traditionalists is to ignore warnings in quran (I know this because I used to do it too). Every warning in quran is either about mushriks, christians or jews, but never about Muslims! The above verse is always attributed to others but never ourselves. When you insist on using outside sources besides the 'ayyatuna bayyinatin' (clear ayats) you are simply saying you're not satisfied with what is given to you. You wish to amend/add/subtract to what Allah has revealed by using another source.

If I do not believe the Qur'an is sufficient to understand the Qur'an itself, it is because the Qur'an has verses as these:

Even though Allah says He explains the Book? If Allah says He will explain the Book, why do you believe you will never be able to understand it?

3/7 It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And not will take heed except those of understanding.

Therefore, only Allah and the Raasikhun fi-l-ilm know the true Ta'wil and interpretation of the Mutishaabihaat.

Actually, the verse says only Allah knows the true interpretation. Where does it say others know? Allah commands you in quran to study with care, and not try to rush its revelation to you.

This verse does not allow you to start using other sources besides quran as an authority.

You didn't actually respond to a few of my questions from my last post to you:

1 - Does the shi'i school you follow know the true meaning of the muqatta'at? Could you provide a link please?

2 - Have the ulema/imams of your school mapped out the clear and allegorical verses in quran as mentioned in 3/7? Do you have a source where I can view this?

Salam

Their ignorance of rejection of Hadiths, Scholars, Saints is what i dislike about them.

As I said earlier, the quran forbids us using other hadith as an authority besides it. I do not reject scholars at all, in fact I'm willing to listen to anyone who claims to have insight in quran, whether sunni, shi'i, ahmedi etc. This is different to most traditionalists who will only follow their own madhab. However, I will only follow someone else's understanding if it makes sense in quran and I understand it. I don't follow saints because if a saint has reached a higher level then it his for his benefit only, he can't take me with him. If he wishes to teach me quran then I'm all ears. I prefer pondering on words of Allah and attaining closeness to him that way.

Forget titles and other nonsense. Search for Truth not only from Quran but from all other sources:

I agree, I search for knowledge from many other sources, i.e. history, science, philosophy etc. However, NONE of those are authorities in matters of islam, that is solely the domain of quran.

wsalam

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Quranists are by and large people who want a more liberal and less restrictive version of Islam, so they chuck out all the hadiths and interpret the Quran according to their own desires.

  • Advanced Member

Salam,

Brother, I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to share my thoughts:

you're welcome.

This is a commandemnt from Allah. 7/185, 45/6 77/50.

Surah Al-Araf (7:185)

Have they not considered the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and what things Allah hath created, and that it may be that their own term draweth nigh? In what fact after this will they believe?

Surah Al-Jathiyah (45:6)

These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?

Surah Al-Mursalat (77:50)

In what statement, after this, will they believe?

brother from the above verses you presented as backing for rejecting all hadiths literature including the correct narrations and the narrations which do not contradict the Quran,non of the veres you presented have anything to do with rejecting hadiths.if at all,i can pick the last verse and still tell you that the last verse is rhetorically stated confronting those who rejected the Quran.it is simply telling them that after rejecting the Quran is there any other book that would impress you?we do not reject the Quran.

infact a hadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadeq tells us to reject any hadiths that contradicts the Quran.with that yardstick,there should be no friction between hadiths and Quran.

Most quranists, such as myself, neither use numerology to understand quran nor do we reject any verses. Numerologist quranists account for a minority, in my experience.

so even among yourselves calling yourselves "Quranists",you still differ?right?

I take it you're referring to Rashad Khalifa. Again, the majority of quranists do not follow Khalifa and we follow quran alone without his mathematical code.

that is again another division.so what do you call yourselves and what do they call themselves.

Actually, the quran says it is fully detailed. To look for details elsewhere suggests the quran is in fact not detailed. 30/28, 41/3.

Surah Al-Room (30:28)

He coineth for you a similitude of yourselves. Have ye, from among those whom your right hands possess, partners in the wealth We have bestowed upon you, equal with you in respect thereof, so that ye fear them as ye fear each other (that ye ascribe unto Us partners out of that which We created)? Thus We display the revelations for people who have sense.

Surah Fussilat (41:3)

A Scripture whereof the verses are expounded, a Lecture in Arabic for people who have knowledge,

Brother from the above two verses,again you cannot present them as evidence to reject all hadiths.the Quran is fully detailed,no doubt about that.but are our brains fully detailed as well?we humans can err.we can misunderstand things and sometimes there are bad people who deliberately misinterprete things.who then do we look up to for understanding?if the method you are applying is correct,then Allah (swt) should not have sent the Quran to a man to teach us.He could have sent its somewhere (maybe on top of the Ka'bah).my point is we need a teacher and that teacher is the Prophet (pbuh).the Quran further tells us:

And obey Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger that you may obtain mercy. (3:132)

(if everyone can understand the Quran as well as the Prophet (pbuh) himself,then why obey him?)

...and whatever the (Prophetic) Messenger gives you, take it and whatever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and be in reverential awe of Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil). (59:7)

Brother I believe it will go a long way in uniting Muslims. The reason you understand quran differently is because of the outside influences (hadith, tafseer, history etc.) that you use to make sense of quran. If you were to abandon them and allow quran to stand on its own feet as a fluid, timeless text, you will find that although we will differ in our understanding, we will be united on the basis that we are all using the same Book.

let us put that to test.i want you to enlighten us on 2 verses.if you explain the verses to me correctly,then consider me a "Quranist".here we go:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the (Prophetic) Messenger and those in authority from amongst you, then if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day (of Jedgement). That is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).(5:55)

Edited by mehdi soldier
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Please read, Imposter

In the last verse of Sura Mursalat, in a scorning tone and with profound astonishment, it questions:

77:50 (If they do not believe in Holy Qur'an) then what statement, after that, will the believe in?

The beliers were given plain and clear guidance but they refused to accept. So this verse is in a completely different context, it doesn't mean Hadith in the way you're thinking. On the contrary, [Pickthal 39:18] "Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding."

^ One of the meanings of this verse refers to Hadith!!

Also, About this verse:

[Pickthal 10:15] And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say: Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.

In many verses the Quran asserts that the Holy Prophet does not do anything or say any word on his own authority but he follows that which is revealed to him. All his sayings are also revelation, though not the part of the Quran, as made clear in verse 101 to 103 of al Nahl, but equally decisive and binding.

I realise that you have interest in the "Muqatta'at" ... We have the meaning of the letters from Surah Maryam, it's the main meaning, but not the only meaning. here it is:

"From a lengthy tradition dealing with Sa'ad bin Abdullah Ash'ari's meeting with Imam al Mahdi (a.t.f.s.), in which Sa'ad asked Imam al Mahdi (a.t.f.s.) the interpreta tion regarding the words: Kaf, Ha, Ya, Ain, Swad in Surah al Maryam. Imam replied,

"These words are from the concealed codes regarding which Allah informed His Servant the Prophet Zakariyah (a.s.) and regarding which it was revealed to the Holy Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.s.).

The incident is as follows: Prophet Zakariyah (a.s.) asked his Lord to teach him the names of the Five Pure Ones, to which Jibra'eel descended and taught him the five names. Whenever Prophet Zakariyah (a.s.) recited the four names, Mohammad (s.a.w.s.), Ali (a.s.), Fatemah (a.s.) and Hasan (a.s.), his heart would be enlightened and his sorrow would part away, but when he took the name of Husain (a.s.) he would become sorrowful and turn restless. One day he asked Allah Almighty.....

"My Lord! When I utter the names of these four Pure Per sonalities, my sorrow parts away, but when I take the name of Husain, I turn sorrowful and weep & wail." Then Allah, the Mighty the Sublime re vealed to him regarding Kaf, Ha, Ya, Ain, Swad. Kaf stands for Karbala, and Ha for Halakah (perdition) of the Prophet's Household, Ya for Yazid, the oppresser and murderer of Husain (a.s.), Ain for Atash (thirst), and Swad for (Sabr) Patience and forbearance of Husain.

When Prophet Zakariyah heard this he was so much grieved that for three consecutive days he refused to come out of his place of worship and did not permit people to meet him, and remained grief-stricken and wept profusely. And he recited the following elegy: O Lord! Will you let the best of Creatures see the plight of his son? O Lord! Will you allow this disaster to fall upon his House-hold? O Lord! Will you let Ali and Fatemah wear the dress of grief and will they witness this calamity"? He (Prophet Zakariyah) would always say, "O Lord! Bestow upon me with a son who would be the light of my eyes in my old-age, and when you present me with a son make my love intense for him and then let me taste the grief of his loss as Your Friend Mohammad (s.a.w.s.) who will mourn the death of his son. Thus Allah blessed Prophet Zakariyah (a.s.) with a son Prophet Yahya (a.s.) whose death was mourned by Prophet Zakariyah. Prophet Yahya (a.s.)'s period of (his mother's) pregnan cy was six months similar to that of Imam Husain (a.s.)."

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  • Advanced Member

If say, u interpreted Quran and found that Quran is enough; whether this is right or wrong will not matter to me. And if a group of quranists find ur interpretation better than their's then it is called ahadees of the first quranist that is u. If rashad khalifa was the first quranist and he somehow said that Quran is enough then every quranist who heard this was a hadees of rashad khalifa. So there can be only one Quranist in the world and that was the first khalfa hazrat abu bakar siddique and rashad khalifas claim is false and so is ur's because abubakar's hadees states Quran is enough.

Got my point.

because hadees means a statement said by someone and it is other than Quran

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun
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Guest Jebreil

Salam,

This is true when you follow anything other than quran, you can never be sure you've made the right choice. This was my point about leaving your salvation to others, whether that be ahlul bait or anyone else. The quran attests that you are not to worry about sincere mistakes in understanding quran if you make the effort in 17/84.

What is your understanding those verses?

77:50 So in what hadith after it will they acknowledge?

It doesn't say obey the Prophet's every word. Please repost the reference so I can check again please. This view becomes inconsistent within the quran. The quran claims it is detailed. If that is so, what exactly was the Prophet instructing people in? If it was something that was within the quran then this refutes your claim. If he was instructing something that was not in quran, then it refutes the quran's own claim to be detailed. So your interpretation is not supported by quran, as far as I can tell.

Indeed. But if you are following an inconsistent interpretation of quran knowingly then this is not sincere. Have you been able to reconcile verses that say quran is complete, all you need, and the only thing revealed to the messenger with verses that supposedly tell you to follow ahlul bait? If the Prophet and ahlul bait are giving commands, why does Allah say quran is detailed and a clarity for all matters? If Prophet and ahlul bait are explaining quran, why does Allah say He is the one that explains quran?

I fail to see the self-refuting bit, however your view of using outside sources must be justified through quran. The quran never mentions the sunnah of the Prophet nor the sunnah of ahlul bait, only the sunnah of Allah. The quran never says ahlul bait are uswatun hasanatun. Note the complaint of the Prophet in the hereafter 25/30. No mention of his sunnah or that of his family.

2/170 And when it is said to them, “Follow what Allah has revealed,” they say, “Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing.” Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

The quran does not tell you to follow 1400 years of history, it instructs you to follow quran.

Perhaps, but it is only quran that has been protected, no other tradition.

I would argue that your faith is inconsistent with quranic instruction. You are commanded to follow quran and not follow any other hadith. The greatest evidence is the quran itself, and it instructs you to follow it alone.

People who wish to amend the Book are mentioned in quran also:

10/15 And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."

The habit of traditionalists is to ignore warnings in quran (I know this because I used to do it too). Every warning in quran is either about mushriks, christians or jews, but never about Muslims! The above verse is always attributed to others but never ourselves. When you insist on using outside sources besides the 'ayyatuna bayyinatin' (clear ayats) you are simply saying you're not satisfied with what is given to you. You wish to amend/add/subtract to what Allah has revealed by using another source.

Even though Allah says He explains the Book? If Allah says He will explain the Book, why do you believe you will never be able to understand it?

Actually, the verse says only Allah knows the true interpretation. Where does it say others know? Allah commands you in quran to study with care, and not try to rush its revelation to you.

This verse does not allow you to start using other sources besides quran as an authority.

You didn't actually respond to a few of my questions from my last post to you:

1 - Does the shi'i school you follow know the true meaning of the muqatta'at? Could you provide a link please?

2 - Have the ulema/imams of your school mapped out the clear and allegorical verses in quran as mentioned in 3/7? Do you have a source where I can view this?

Salam

As I said earlier, the quran forbids us using other hadith as an authority besides it. I do not reject scholars at all, in fact I'm willing to listen to anyone who claims to have insight in quran, whether sunni, shi'i, ahmedi etc. This is different to most traditionalists who will only follow their own madhab. However, I will only follow someone else's understanding if it makes sense in quran and I understand it. I don't follow saints because if a saint has reached a higher level then it his for his benefit only, he can't take me with him. If he wishes to teach me quran then I'm all ears. I prefer pondering on words of Allah and attaining closeness to him that way.

I agree, I search for knowledge from many other sources, i.e. history, science, philosophy etc. However, NONE of those are authorities in matters of islam, that is solely the domain of quran.

wsalam

(bismillah)

(salam)

The answer to your questions is in the Hadith books - and of course, I do not know all the Hadith - yet, what we, the School of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, know for sure is that the true interpretation of the Qur'an, both in those letters and the Mutishaabihaat is in the figures of the Prophet and his successors (family). In our Books, you will find many interpretations of them. For this, you have to consult the Hadith books, not a layman like me who is still learning his way up the ladder. Sister Layla did provide one Hadith among many of such interpretations which we could never know, even after millenia of meditation.

------

As to this quote:

Actually, the verse says only Allah knows the true interpretation. Where does it say others know?

However, the verse says:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ ءَايَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ ءَامَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This is the reading which was taught by the School of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt. That Allah (swt) has inspired the true interpretation to the Prophet (do you deny this?) and his successors who continue the mission of teaching the true interpretation, not mere opinions of this and that.

----

As to your responses to the post:

Too much opinion. Backed from your own opinion of the meanings of those verses.

If the Qur'an is so clear that it does not require a Divinely inspired Authority (the Prophet and his family) to teach it, then why do Qur'anists differ when reading this book? A clear and detailed Book will have answers to every question - answers which everyone will understand clearly, without ambiguities which give rise to widely different interpretations.

So, I will provide One question, which if can be answered from the Qur'an alone, I will fully concede my position:

Question:

وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُوا أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاءً بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

(5:38)

What is the definition of "hand" - or I should say "yad" - in this verse?

Is it:

يَاأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُوا وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ مِنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَكِنْ يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (yad) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Where the "yad" denotes the arm from the elbows to the fingertips.

Or:

يَاأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا لَا تَقْرَبُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَأَنْتُمْ سُكَارَى حَتَّى تَعْلَمُوا مَا تَقُولُونَ وَلَا جُنُبًا إِلَّا عَابِرِي سَبِيلٍ حَتَّى تَغْتَسِلُوا وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَفُوًّا غَفُورًا

O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands (yad). For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Where the "yad" denotes the hand up to the wrist.

Or any other reasoning?

If the Qur'an is so clear, you should be able to define the "hand" (yad) which is to be cut off, from the Qur'an alone. Which "hand" does the Qur'an command to be cut off?

-----------

Please respond. I will then provide for you the answer which the 9th Imam of the School of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt gave in this regard using the Qur'an alone .

And you will clearly see that interpreting the Qur'an without the guidance of a Figure who understands the Qur'an fully, is a dangerous affair.

------------------------------

(wasalam)

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Salaam Aleikum,

As I said earlier, the quran forbids us using other hadith as an authority besides it.

The traditions should only base on Quran. And if the tradition is contradiction with Quran then you throw it away.

. I do not reject scholars at all, in fact I'm willing to listen to anyone who claims to have insight in quran, whether sunni, shi'i, ahmedi etc. This is different to most traditionalists who will only follow their own madhab.

And of course you also knew that these Scholars gain the insight of Quran also through traditions. So what if they follow different madhab? What matters is Truth.

However, I will only follow someone else's understanding if it makes sense in quran and I understand it.

This is important and Alhamdulillah that you have such a sense. This is why we follow Prophets and Imams to give us this understanding that we may reflect and understand Quran more.

I don't follow saints because if a saint has reached a higher level then it his for his benefit only, he can't take me with him. If he wishes to teach me quran then I'm all ears. I prefer pondering on words of Allah and attaining closeness to him that way.

Read my post #35 carefully.

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Salam,

Hamdulillah, many responses! I'll try my best to respond to all, inshAllah. :)

Salam,

Surah Al-Araf (7:185)

Have they not considered the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and what things Allah hath created, and that it may be that their own term draweth nigh? In what hadith after this will they believe?

Surah Al-Jathiyah (45:6)

These are the ayats of Allah which We recite unto thee with truth. Then in what hadith, after Allah and His ayat, will they believe?

Surah Al-Mursalat (77:50)

In what hadith, after this, will they believe?

brother from the above verses you presented as backing for rejecting all hadiths literature including the correct narrations and the narrations which do not contradict the Quran,non of the veres you presented have anything to do with rejecting hadiths.

I've gone to the trouble of amending your translations slightly to make it clear what the issue is.

They have everything to do with rejecting hadith. The verses all draw attention to the fact that quran is the best hadith as stated in 39/23. They then ask you which hadith are you believing in after? Note that the word in every verse is 'hadith', which you have translated in two different ways. 45/6 makes it particularly clear.

if at all,i can pick the last verse and still tell you that the last verse is rhetorically stated confronting those who rejected the Quran.it is simply telling them that after rejecting the Quran is there any other book that would impress you?we do not reject the Quran.

Indeed. This does not escape the fact that the verse is condemning the use of other hadith, whether instead of quran or besides it.

infact a hadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadeq tells us to reject any hadiths that contradicts the Quran.with that yardstick,there should be no friction between hadiths and Quran.

Except as demonstrated, the quran condemns this. Note that the quran says it is fully detailed 6/114 and many others. Understood with the above verses I've quoted, it becomes clear that the quran is all you need. What guidance are you getting from other hadith if the quran is sufficiently detailed?

so even among yourselves calling yourselves "Quranists",you still differ?right?

Absolutely. 17/84.

that is again another division.so what do you call yourselves and what do they call themselves.

I believe they call themselves "Submitters", whereas I like the term quranist for myself. I don't consider it a sect because we have no unified set of beliefs other than using quran as the sole authority. How we understand it individually is determined by our own studies and the mercy of Allah.

but are our brains fully detailed as well?we humans can err.we can misunderstand things and sometimes there are bad people who deliberately misinterprete things.who then do we look up to for understanding?

The quran. It is fully detailed, as you've already conceded, it is explained by Allah (75/19, 55/1-2) and you are commanded to study it with care (4/82). You are allowed time to understand (20/114), and you are allowed to follow what Allah inspires as truth from it (17/84).

There is no harm in asking others who know more than you. As I said earlier, I have no problem with scholars. However, sole AUTHORITY lies with quran. You can look up to others for understanding until they begin to command things not found in quran.

Understand that your objections are even more relevant when following ulema. They tell you that you will never understand quran, you will never understand fiqh, you will never understand anything unless you do a 10 year alim course, and even then you will never understand like the imams of old! You are thus forced to admit your ignorance and simply follow them. This is unquranic, 17/36.

if the method you are applying is correct,then Allah (swt) should not have sent the Quran to a man to teach us.He could have sent its somewhere (maybe on top of the Ka'bah).

Careful, brother, careful.

25/32 And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly.

my point is we need a teacher and that teacher is the Prophet (pbuh).

Your teacher is Allah:

55/2 He gave knowledge [allama] of quran

the Quran further tells us:

And obey Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger that you may obtain mercy. (3:132)

(if everyone can understand the Quran as well as the Prophet (pbuh) himself,then why obey him?)

I answered this earlier. The obedience is one obedience, not two. Careful study reveals this. The 'wa' in between Allah and messenger does not denote different obediences. 'Wa' is used many times in quran in a different way to the word 'and' in English.

...and whatever the (Prophetic) Messenger gives you, take it and whatever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and be in reverential awe of Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil). (59:7)

Here is the full verse:

59/7 What restored by Allah upon His Messenger from the people of the towns, thus it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for those near and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it will not be circulated between the rich among you. And whatever the Messenger gave you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

So in context we see that the verse was about distribution of wealth and not about religious instruction found outside quran.

let us put that to test.i want you to enlighten us on 2 verses.if you explain the verses to me correctly,then consider me a "Quranist".here we go:

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the (Prophetic) Messenger and those in authority from amongst you, then if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the (Prophetic) Messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day (of Jedgement). That is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

42/51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

Note the three types of communication Allah mentions here.

The Prophet was commanded to deliver the quran.

5/67 O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer ; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

In the above verse the messenger of Allah is ordered to deliver what has been revealed on him. Or what the quran identfies as “ma_ unzila ilaika mir rabbik”. Now what are those divine teachings and laws that are revealed on the messenger? The following verses clarify as to what consists of (what has been revealed to you):

16/89 And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

In 42/51 three methods of communication are mentioned: inspiration/revelation, from behind a barrier, and via a messenger.

When Allah says 'obey Allah' it must include all of the aforementioned methods of communication. When Allah adds 'and obey the messenger' He is drawing your attention to one particular type of communication i.e. quran via the messenger. This is of course inclusive of obeying Allah. 42/51 explains why Allah doesn't say 'obey the message'. He refers to the messenger because messengers are the chosen form of communication for Allah.

Why then does Allah mention the messenger at all, since obeying Allah includes the quran via the messenger? I believe it is for clarity and emphasis. Here are some of my notes regarding how 'wa' (and) is used for emphasis.

We find in quran that 'wa' is not exclusively used as a connecting conjunction, but also used for emphasis.

2/238 Be guardians of your salawat, AND [wa] of salat al wustu, and stand with devotion to Allah.

Isn't salat al wustu part of the salawat? If we maintain that 'wa' can only be used as 'and', then it looks like salawat is one thing, and salat al wustu is something different, hence the AND in between them. But here we can clearly see that the 'wa' in between the two is used for emphasis, and not indicative of two separate things.

21/48 We had given Moses and Aaron al furqan, AND [wa] shining light, AND [wa] a reminder for the righteous.

Here again we see 'wa' being used. Is anyone willing to claim that Allah gave Moses and Aaron three separate things? Or do we understand that these things are inclusive of God's guidance and that He is drawing attention to aspects of it?

With this in mind, we can clearly see that even linguistically, the obedience of Allah and His messenger is one obedience, not two. The 'wa' is being used to draw attention to the importance of the messenger, i.e. he is the one who is delivering the message that needs to be obeyed.

Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).(5:55)

I'm not sure what I'm meant to explain here... Allah is your ally, as is the messenger. Since he is not alive, this in my opinion refers to his uswatun and the message he left behind i.e. his path is your ally. The believers are your allies because they are on the quranic path.

wsalam

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Salam,

Make sure you respond me, imposter, wherever you are..

With respect Layla, I do not see the benefit. You've already declared me not muslim:

I'm sorry to say this ... But you "quranist" guys are not Muslim and definitely DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM!!

I think any discussion will simply be us speaking at each other, not to each other. Allow me to decline your request.

wsalam

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Salam,

The answer to your questions is in the Hadith books - and of course, I do not know all the Hadith - yet, what we, the School of the Prophet and Ahlulbayt, know for sure is that the true interpretation of the Qur'an, both in those letters and the Mutishaabihaat is in the figures of the Prophet and his successors (family). In our Books, you will find many interpretations of them. For this, you have to consult the Hadith books, not a layman like me who is still learning his way up the ladder. Sister Layla did provide one Hadith among many of such interpretations which we could never know, even after millenia of meditation.

Does this not undermine your position? You said the Prophet and ahlul bait know the factual interpretation of quran... yet they did not make this known to the people? Why after hundreds of years is it not clear what the letters mean and why is there no clear mapping of the precise/allegorical verses? It suggests the Prophet did not do his job properly, or his teachings have not been preserved.

3/7 [...] but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

I don't agree with the grammar of your translation. The word 'raasikh' is a predicate of the entire verse but part of a new phrasal structure. The way you've presented it is "Allah and those in knowledge say..." Allah is not the one who says, it is those in knowledge who say. Thus you need a pause after the word Allah, to make it clear who is the one speaking.

3/7 It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation and no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those in knowledge [raasikh] say, "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And not will take heed except those of understanding.

I'm not an expert in Arabic grammar, but you can verify what I've said, inshAllah. Thus the understanding is only with Allah. Those of knowledge will say they believe in all of it.

then why do Qur'anists differ when reading this book? A clear and detailed Book will have answers to every question - answers which everyone will understand clearly, without ambiguities which give rise to widely different interpretations.

The Book is clear. People's abilities to understand are different.

So, I will provide One question, which if can be answered from the Qur'an alone, I will fully concede my position:

As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

(5:38)

What is the definition of "hand" - or I should say "yad" - in this verse?

If the Qur'an is so clear, you should be able to define the "hand" (yad) which is to be cut off, from the Qur'an alone. Which "hand" does the Qur'an command to be cut off?

It doesn't command any severing of the hands. This exact phrase (differing only in gender and voice) is found in 12/31.

iq'ta'u aydiyahuma 5/38

qatta'ana aydiyahunna 12/31

I don't know any tafseer that suggests the cutting of the hands in 12/31 is a severing from the wrist or elbow. Yet the same phrase is used to justify severing the thief's hand in 5/38.

The word yad is metaphorical in 5/38, as it is in 12/31. Those who believe 5/38 is a severing of the hands need to explain why it doesn't mean the same thing in 12/31. If it does mean the same thing in 12/31, I'd like an explanation regarding what the story in 12/31 is. If they make the two verses mean two different things, I'd like a quranic justification as to why this is.

Your tone surprises me. "If the Qur'an is so clear" is said in a way as if you believe it isn't. Why does the quran say it is a clarity for all matters if it isn't clear?

Salam,

The traditions should only base on Quran. And if the tradition is contradiction with Quran then you throw it away.

Then what's the point of traditions if you're going to measure them against quran? Might as well just follow the quran directly, no? The only explanation is that you require the traditions to explain the quran, but I've posted several verses that says the quran is clear and it is clarified and detailed by Allah. Allah guides you to the truth, not traditions.

wsalam

Salam,

If say, u interpreted Quran and found that Quran is enough; whether this is right or wrong will not matter to me. And if a group of quranists find ur interpretation better than their's then it is called ahadees of the first quranist that is u. If rashad khalifa was the first quranist and he somehow said that Quran is enough then every quranist who heard this was a hadees of rashad khalifa. So there can be only one Quranist in the world and that was the first khalfa hazrat abu bakar siddique and rashad khalifas claim is false and so is ur's because abubakar's hadees states Quran is enough.

Got my point.

because hadees means a statement said by someone and it is other than Quran

I'm not sure I fully understood your point, but I have nothing to do with Rashad Khalifa or his sect. I simply follow quran alone and do not accept anything besides it as authoritative.

If someone became a quranist before me and taught me quran, that does not mean I now follow that person's hadith. I follow what the quran says to the best of my ability. I listen to everyone who speaks about quran and adopt the view that makes most sense to me.

wsalam

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Imposter, this is the verse you use to back up all of your pathetic claims "the Quran explains everything" .. Well why don't you understand this verse, itself, then! You can't! Why? Because Quran isn't just a book , it's the "Word of God" , and who transmits the words of God to the people ? The Holy Prophet! And who makes the people understand these verses? Those who have been invested with authority and knowledge, the prophet and Ahlul Bayt...

89. " And (remember) the day when We raise up a witness from every people against them from among themselves, and We shall bring you as a witness against these. And We have sent down the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and as a guidance, and glad tidings for Muslims. "

It has been narrated in Tafsir- i- Safi from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) who said: "By Allah! we are knowledgeable about everything which is in the skies and on the earth, and whatever is between them, as well as what is in Paradise or in Hell. " Then the Imam (a.s.) recited the above verse three times.

Imam Baqir (a.s.) remarked: "Whatever is needed by the Ummah has already been mentioned in the Qur'an, and whatever you hear from me, I shall provide its Qur'anic documentation if you ask. " (Kanz- ud- Daqa'iq, under the verse) Had rat Ali (a.s.) said: "Whatever news about you, as well as the history of the past nations, the future generations, the skies and the earth all have been stated in the Qur'an. " (Kanz- ud- Daqa'iq, under the verse)

Imam Rida (a.s.)said to the chief men of some religions in a session that among the miracles of the Messenger of Islam is one which reveals a poor orphan who has been an illiterate shepherd, being in possession of a Book 'the explanation of every thing' and that all news of the past and future until the Hereafter be recorded in it. ( Nour- uth- Thaqalayn, under the verse)

Imam Sadiq (a.s.) has said: "In Allah's Book, there is a solution for every dispute between two parties though the people's wisdom may not catch it. " ( Nour- uth- Thaqalayn, vol. 3, p. 75)

The Qur'an expresses everything though everyone may not understand. Hadrat Ali (a.s.) says: For the common people, the Qur'an provides apparent sentences; for some sophisticated individuals, it provides mysterious allusions; and for the saints of Allah, it reveals delicate divine nuances, while for the prophets it presents 'facts'.

þSuch a trait of being 'explanatory of everything' is either in a direct manner or by means of verses which contain some principles that are leading for us, such as in the Qur'an it says: "... and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, ..."(1) And as in the verse: which says: "... That you may make clear to mankind what has been sent down to them ..."(2)

So tell me, imposter, all of the rulings of prayers, fasting, hajj, zakat in the Quran... Exactly you can't! Which inherently means you reject all of these which means ... You're not a Muslim ! Wake up!

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Salaam Aleikum,

Then what's the point of traditions if you're going to measure them against quran? Might as well just follow the quran directly, no?

When you read a book what Scholar speak on Quran but by your limited knowledge you will realize that there is one Quranic verse which contradict what Scholar say. Of course you will not accept what Scholar said. But if he said something that is not against Quran and which sound logical and Truth, then of course you will reflect on it.

The only explanation is that you require the traditions to explain the quran, but I've posted several verses that says the quran is clear and it is clarified and detailed by Allah.

Not only traditions but any knowledge and Wisdom that will help me to answer my questions of Quranic verses and this reality. We all humans have different level of spiritual stage and different level of intelligence. Understand this that "Quran is clear" for all these different stages. The converter will only understand in minimal level of some simple Quranic verses, and he will say that this Quran is clear. The Scholar will understand Quran verses in much more high sense and yet he will say that the "Quran is clear".

Allah guides you to the truth, not traditions.

When you study and reflect the creation of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, it is Allah who Guide you and give Wisdom. When you study and reflect on traditions it is Allah who Guide you and give Wisdom. When you study and reflect on Quran it is Allah who Guide you and give Wisdom. etc. Allah (SWT) alone is the Teacher, Doctor, Helper, Guidance, Giver of Rahma and Wisdom etc.

Agree or Disagree, i have said all what is necessary to be said in minimal level.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I agree with thecontendedself and Jebreil... Brother, I suggest your read and understand your religion better, AND ESPECIALLY the Quran...

For you to say that you should only use Quran and nothing else, that completley going against the Quran, since the Quran (God's words) calls on you to take whatever the messenger has given you and refrain from what he has forbidden...

And how would you know what he has given and what he wants you to refrain from??? THATS WERE HADITH PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE

ANOTHER QUESTION YOU SHOULD ASK YOURSELF: How can you explain the words of God in the Quran??? How can you understand what is meant by the verses of the Quran??? Not all verses are so clear.........

The Quran will answer you:

So it is the Holy Prophet (pbuh) who would make clear to us the true meanings behind the verses of the Quran.... And where can you find the the Prophet's (pbuh) explanation of the Quran???? THE HADITH

Another thing, what is meant when Allah (swt) calls on the believers to OBEY the messenger????

This means that that God has given certain authority to the Propeht (pbuh) that we should obey him in in order for us to TRULY OBEY GOD... ... Where can we find what the Prophet ordered us to do, in order to OBEY???? ANSWER:THE HADITH

The last beautiful verse i would like you to look into is this verse:

So you may love God and worship him in whatever way you want, but if you truly want God to exchange this love, and love you back, thus gaining a place under his mercy... WHAT SHOULD YOU DO????

You should follow the Prophet (pbuh).... FOLLOW HIM IN WHAT???? In everything he does and says and orders you to do.... WHERE CAN WE FIND HIS SAYINGS, ACTIONS, AND ORDERS???? ANSWER AGAIN: THE HADITH

So we reach a conclusion that God is ordering you to follow the prophet in everything in order for you to truly be a Believer and truly Obey Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì...

If this is true, than the hadith from the prophet: "Hadith Thaqalayn", which agreed upon its authenticity... Tells you that you should follow the Quran & Ahlul Bayt...

This is an ORDER from the Prophet... If you OBEY and follow both, than you would have obeyed God.... You have to follow BOTH, not one and leave the other, because only by following them both together will you never go astray...

So i ask of you very kindly to to have a deeper and closer look into Islam and the Quran...

I am not here to Debate, I just wanted to show you that you are contradicting the Quran, and i ask Allah(swt) to forgive me and you, and may he bless us and guide us onto the Straight Path... Salam Brother

(salam)

You claim that the "Hadith & Sunna" are divine revelations. Obviously, you are not aware that the criterion of divine revelations is PERFECT PRESERVATION. Since the so-called Hadith & Sunna of the Prophet have been vastly corrupted, they can never meet the criterion of divine revelation.

It is an acknowledged fact that the vast majority of Hadiths are false fabrications. Do a quick internet search and you will find the majority of hadiths are corrupt, lies and fabrications.

We all know ONE mistake is not accepted, I can show you hundreds. You can not ignore these errors because then it goes against the Quran and Allah preserving His divine revelations as stated in 15:9. "Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder (Azekrra) (Quran), and absolutely, we will preserve it."

Again in 41:41-42 "Those who rejected the Quran's proof (Azekr) when it came to them, have also rejected an Honorable book. No falsehood could enter it, in the past or in the future,; a revelation from a Most Wise, Praiseworthy." Seeing how much falsehood entered the so called Hadiths books would make any sincere Muslim understand the reason these books were so much corrupted.

One more criteria for God's words is spelled out in 4:82

"............If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions." 4:82

Any reader of Hadiths books will find in them so many contradictions to make the above conclusion easily, they are not from God.

The blasphemy is evident when they claim that Hadith and Sunna are divine revelations Do they not realize that God Almighty is capable of preserving His revelations?

YES, WE SHOULD OBEY THE PROPHET MUHAMMED. God in the Quran clearly states that obeying the Prophet is the same like obeying Him. No one should consider himself true Muslim (Submitter in English) unless he obeys and follow the prophet Muhammed. Obeying him is to follow the words that came from his mouth inspired by God , the Quran. Without getting into more details , review for yourself the verses, 6:19, 50:45,16:44, 16:64,14:1,6:155,, 4:105, 18:27 .....etc. to see that Quran is the only message of Muhammed.

"Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran (Not Quran, Hadith and Sunna) has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches......" 6:19

".........remind with this Quran (Not Quran, Hadith and Sunna) , those who reverence My warnings." 50:45 Please read the other mentioned verses for yourself.

When the prophet Muhammed died, he left behind only ONE book, the Quran. The ONLY book that the prophet Muhammed followed was the Quran.

Those who follow the Quran are following the Prophet Muhammed , those who are following the alleged Hadith and Sunna are not following the Prophet but following those who wrote these books. Following anybody but God's commandments in the Quran, is idol-worship. Idol-worship is the only unforgivable sin, if maintained tell death. Good intentions do not help, many idol-worshipers will face God on the Day of Judgment not realizing what they were doing , their intentions will not help them then, read for yourself 6:22-24.

Let us follow the Prophet by following his message that God calls, complete, perfect and has detailed explanation for everything (12:111), the Glorious Quran.

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PERFECT PRESERVATION

Perfection is perceived subjectively unless defined and explained by a similar perfection that comprehends it in all it's perfection. The interpretation of the perfection is corrupted by an imperfect perspective. Thus the preservation is intact only within the scripture itself, but the perception is corruptible. This is clear because 'Qur'anists' 'sect' individually contradict each other on the interpretations of the verses. This conflict and proof that though the perfectness is indeed preserved, and we know its preserved, the perception however is imperfect unless that perception is originated too by perfectness.

To demonstrate this:

Get 1000 'qur'anist' idiots.

Place the idiots in 1000 separate rooms, each with their own copy of the qur'an.

Ask each idiot to write the interpretation of each verse, e.g. how they derive laws that they must follow.

Grab each of their writings, and compare them.

They will differ.

Conclusion?

The Qur'an remains perfectly preserved. The perception remains perfectly imperfect. The qur'anists remain perfectly retarded.

retard.jpg

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I'm sorry to say this ... But you "quranist" guys are not Muslim and definitely DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM!! Why?

1. You distort the Quranic verses and have no in depth knowledge or structured analysis of the Quranic verses.

How do we distort the Quran when we say ONLY read the Quran? Look do not get me wrong. A Quranist is someone who translates the Quran for themselves without the need of outside input. I believe in the 12 Blessed Imams but I also know they dedicated their lives to teaching the Quran and protecting it. Its amazing to note as well that the BIRTH OF THE HADITHS BOOK (BUKHARI) was written at the exact same time of the MAHDIs birth. Check it out for yourself.

So all the Imams came and stopped hadiths from being written and guided people with wise words FROM THE QURAN, your telling me however the guided poeple with wise words from hadiths. Give me a break.

I showed you numerous examples from the Quran saying stay away from any hadiths except the Quran

Also my friend, IF YOU BELIEVE IN HADITHS, you must accept the BIBLE as true. The bible was written by Hz Jesus's 12 disciples. They were rightly guided as we all know.

The BIBLE is the Hadith book of Hz Jesus, The Gospel of Hz Jesus is what he brought down. You have to also believe in the Talmud (the hadith book of Moses).

2. The sectarian Quranist movement are the cause of terrorism due to illiteracy towards the Quran, as well as naivety.

How am I secting? Please explain if I tell you to drop everything and ONLY read the orginal source, as Allah commanded us to and NOT to join any sects, how are we secting? You yourself are saying the Quran is not complete without hadiths. So you yourself are saying Mans writing is in comparisons with Allahs.

Please do not get me wrong. I love the Ahlul Bayt and the Bloodline. They were the most beautiful guides and Imams. They only taught the Quran however, not hadiths

3. You bring down the status of the Holy Prophet (let alone the ahlulbayt (as)) and say he's nothing, really.. Just another man, who sinned and made mistakes... Shame on you!

The Quran says they sinned but all their sins were forgiven. If they did not sin what the use of them praying and asking for forgiveness? If we do not hold any prophet above one another and treat them all equal, how do you explain the Orginal Sin? How do you explain Hz David and the 2 angels story where he realised he sinned? How do you explain Hz Moses promising he will not ask a single question and asking 3? How do you explain Hz Jonah (Eyups) sin? How do you explain Hz Muhammad "frowned and turned away his face because there came up to him the blind man. " sin?

The Quran forigives he prophets and any Ahlul Bayt for sins. They were purified before, after and eternity. What they did were so mankind could have examples.

4. You're all ignorant, illiterate and foolish. You make the most stupidest, dumbest claims that are so easily refutable. You know absolutely nothing of the essence of Islam, let alone what it actually consists of.

So Hadiths know what Islam is made of? Quran states in only one place that THE BOOK is COMPLETED and we can finally say we are from ISLAM. Hadiths are any addition to the completed book. Do a Phonetic Quran search on the word Hadith in the Quran. READ what the Quran says. Then tell me if its me being ignorant or if its yourself.

5. You're all brain washed by Umar and rashid khalifa into believing all of this nonsense.

I do not know this guy and wouldnt follow him anyway. I translate the Quran for myself. Also the Quran specifically tells us that the Ahlul Bayt were purified, not his Sahihs. So in regards to your quote about Omar (for that matter Abu Bakr and Othman) I can not accept them on a higher status or even as a Caliph over the most beautiful example of how to be a Muslim, Imam Ali. This is clear from the Quran.

Rashid is a character who has grabbed the title of Quranist and warped its meaning. That like saying all Shias whip themselves or are part of Hizbullah, or all Sunnis hate Imam Ali.

My choosing to be a Quranist is not due to Rashid and his warped beliefs. It is due to my love for the Quran and not being able to comprehend any man wriiten words to even be accepted in conjunction with the Quran.

A Quranist translates for himself, if its the complete book, that also came to complete other Monothesist religions (Psalms, Gospel, Torah and Quran) Then how can you ADD a book AFTER and claim it to be required for me to understand the Quran. Quran states it is made simple for us to understand.

6. I find it annoying when you insinuate that the Holy Prophet is important because of the Quran. Wrong. The Prophet and Ahlul Bayt are the message. On the contrary, the Quran leads to the love and guidance of the Ahlul Bayt. If it was just the Book God wanted to reveal, Then He could've just thrown it down a chimney for us or sent it as an Email attachment ... But no, the Quran is nothing without the Ahlul Bayt because they complete the religion. Hence the reason why this universe was created out of the love of the Five Infallibles.

The Quran talks a lot about Ahlul Bayt and the Imam.

Even in El-Fatiah (that all Muslims say before praying) mentions them

Guide us in the Straight Path: The Path of those whom Thou hast blessed... (1:6-7)

More examples include

It is Allah's wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (33:33)

Say, I ask no reward from you for it except the love of my kinsfolk. And whosoever does a good deed we add unto it a greater good for him. Lo, Allah is Forgiving, Responsive. (42:23)

And whoever disputes with thee concerning him after the inspired knowledge which has been given unto thee, tell him, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons; our women and your women; and ourselves and yourselves; then let us pray and invoke Allah's curse upon those who lie." (3:61)

Hold fast to the Rope of Allah, all of you together and do not diverge. (3:103)

Be careful of your duty to Allah and be with the Truthful. (9:119)

Lo, this is My Straight Path, so follow it and do not follow other ways or else you will diverge from His way. (6:153)

O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)

Whoever opposes the Prophet after the guidance has been made manifest unto him and follows any path other than the path of the true believers, We will turn him towards that unto which he himself has turned, and We will expose him to Hell and a bad journey it will be. (4:115)

(O Prophet) Lo! thou art a warner and for every community there is a guide. (13:7)

They are those whom Allah has blessed among the prophets and the verifiers, the martyrs and the righteous. (4:69)

They (i.e., prophets and Imams) do not say anything until He orders, and they act (in all things) by His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they (i.e., those saints) offer no intercession except for anyone whom Allah accepts, and they are in awe and reverence of His (glory). (21:27-28)

Verily your master is only Allah, and His messenger and those among the believers who establish worship and pay the poor due while they are bowing down in prayer. (5:55)

And lo! Verily I am the Most forgiving towards him who repents and believes and does good and then follows the guidance. (20:82)

O you who believe, enter into peace, all of you, and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan. (2:208)

Then, on that day, you will be asked concerning the blessing. (102:8)

O you Messenger, convey what has been revealed unto you by your Lord, for if you do not do so, you will not have conveyed His message at all. And Allah will protect you from the people. Lo! Allah guides not the disbelieving folk (5:67)

This day have We perfected for you your religion and finalized Our blessing upon you, and We are pleased that Islam be your religion. (5:3)

A questioner asked for the inevitable punishment to befall the disbelievers which no one can avert. (70:1-2)

And when your Lord brought forth from the lions of the Children of Adam their seed, and made them bear testimony about their souls (He asked):"Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness." (7:172)

Or are they jealous of those men because of that which Allah has bestowed upon them in His bounty? (4:54)

None touches (the depth of meaning of Quran) save the purified ones. (56:79)

No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)

Ask the people of Reminder if you do not know. (21:7, 16:43)

I dont deny the Ahlul Bayt or the Imams. I just follow what they asked us to and what they struggled to teach us. The Quran

at the end of the day

I can claim to be a Muslim and following the oneness of Islam

You can only claim to be a sect of the Muslims and a sect of Islam

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Perfection is perceived subjectively unless defined and explained by a similar perfection that comprehends it in all it's perfection. The interpretation of the perfection is corrupted by an imperfect perspective. Thus the preservation is intact only within the scripture itself, but the perception is corruptible. This is clear because 'Qur'anists' 'sect' individually contradict each other on the interpretations of the verses. This conflict and proof that though the perfectness is indeed preserved, and we know its preserved, the perception however is imperfect unless that perception is originated too by perfectness.

To demonstrate this:

Get 1000 'qur'anist' idiots.

Place the idiots in 1000 separate rooms, each with their own copy of the qur'an.

Ask each idiot to write the interpretation of each verse, e.g. how they derive laws that they must follow.

Grab each of their writings, and compare them.

They will differ.

Conclusion?

The Qur'an remains perfectly preserved. The perception remains perfectly imperfect. The qur'anists remain perfectly retarded.

retard.jpg

LOOOOOLL your posts are hilarious :D

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Guest Jebreil

Salam,

Does this not undermine your position? You said the Prophet and ahlul bait know the factual interpretation of quran... yet they did not make this known to the people? Why after hundreds of years is it not clear what the letters mean and why is there no clear mapping of the precise/allegorical verses? It suggests the Prophet did not do his job properly, or his teachings have not been preserved.

I don't agree with the grammar of your translation. The word 'raasikh' is a predicate of the entire verse but part of a new phrasal structure. The way you've presented it is "Allah and those in knowledge say..." Allah is not the one who says, it is those in knowledge who say. Thus you need a pause after the word Allah, to make it clear who is the one speaking.

3/7 It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation and no one knows its interpretation except Allah. And those in knowledge [raasikh] say, "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And not will take heed except those of understanding.

I'm not an expert in Arabic grammar, but you can verify what I've said, inshAllah. Thus the understanding is only with Allah. Those of knowledge will say they believe in all of it.

The Book is clear. People's abilities to understand are different.

It doesn't command any severing of the hands. This exact phrase (differing only in gender and voice) is found in 12/31.

iq'ta'u aydiyahuma 5/38

qatta'ana aydiyahunna 12/31

I don't know any tafseer that suggests the cutting of the hands in 12/31 is a severing from the wrist or elbow. Yet the same phrase is used to justify severing the thief's hand in 5/38.

The word yad is metaphorical in 5/38, as it is in 12/31. Those who believe 5/38 is a severing of the hands need to explain why it doesn't mean the same thing in 12/31. If it does mean the same thing in 12/31, I'd like an explanation regarding what the story in 12/31 is. If they make the two verses mean two different things, I'd like a quranic justification as to why this is.

Your tone surprises me. "If the Qur'an is so clear" is said in a way as if you believe it isn't. Why does the quran say it is a clarity for all matters if it isn't clear?

Salam,

Then what's the point of traditions if you're going to measure them against quran? Might as well just follow the quran directly, no? The only explanation is that you require the traditions to explain the quran, but I've posted several verses that says the quran is clear and it is clarified and detailed by Allah. Allah guides you to the truth, not traditions.

wsalam

Salam,

I'm not sure I fully understood your point, but I have nothing to do with Rashad Khalifa or his sect. I simply follow quran alone and do not accept anything besides it as authoritative.

If someone became a quranist before me and taught me quran, that does not mean I now follow that person's hadith. I follow what the quran says to the best of my ability. I listen to everyone who speaks about quran and adopt the view that makes most sense to me.

wsalam

(bismillah)

(salam)

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I said I don't know the interpretation - and that you will have to find the interpretations in the Books. If I refer to the Books too, I will find them there as well. So, the Prophet did his job magnificently, as well as appointing by Allah's command successors who will interpret the Qur'an for us as perfectly as it was revealed.

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As for the translation of that verse: the Arabic is the same, but it all depends on where you pause/where the sentence ends - in one reading (which is my reading - and which is Grammatically correct):

3/7 It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation and no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those in firmly grounded in knowledge (Raasikhun) - they [meaning the Raasikhun] say, "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And not will take heed except those of understanding.

So the pause is after Raasikhuna fi-l-'ilm.

It depends on how you read the Arabic. Do you start the sentence with "Raasikhun" or with "Yaqulun"? They are both Grammatically proper. What is interesting is that your Qur'anist position cannot even tell us how to read the Arabic Qur'an.

Another example of such:

Do you wash your feet or do you wipe your feet?

Here, in the Qur'an it says:

يَاأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَاةِ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ فَاغْسِلُوا وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُوا بِرُءُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُوا وَإِنْ كُنْتُمْ مَرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِنْكُمْ مِنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لَامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَلَمْ تَجِدُوا مَاءً فَتَيَمَّمُوا صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُوا بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُمْ مِنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ مِنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَكِنْ يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (yad) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Do you follow the correct method? Do you wipe your feet? Or do you wash your feet? Why? Why then do other Muslims interpret the verse differently and do the opposite? Why is the Arabic so ambiguous that people interpret in various ways?

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I don't know any tafseer that suggests the cutting of the hands in 12/31 is a severing from the wrist or elbow. Yet the same phrase is used to justify severing the thief's hand in 5/38.

The word yad is metaphorical in 5/38, as it is in 12/31. Those who believe 5/38 is a severing of the hands need to explain why it doesn't mean the same thing in 12/31. If it does mean the same thing in 12/31, I'd like an explanation regarding what the story in 12/31 is. If they make the two verses mean two different things, I'd like a quranic justification as to why this is.

Aren't you afraid that your opinions are changing the Word of Allah?

Just because the women of Egypt cut their hands in one manner, you think that thieves should have their hands cut in the same manner? That is a very bad argument. Very illogical. And anyhow, were you in Egypt to see how the women cut their hands? Did they cut their forearms, or their palms, or the back of their hands, or the fingers?

Or you claim that "yad" is used metaphorically. But where did you get this from? Why are you fabricating intentions, then attributing them to Allah? Where does Allah say that the "yad" is metaphoric? Even the context lends itself to literal understanding.

Whoever steeps into their own opinion, and interprets the Words of Allah through his own opinion, is led astray:

أَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ أَفَأَنْتَ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِ وَكِيلًا

Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his impulse? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path.

فَلَا يَصُدَّنَّكَ عَنْهَا مَنْ لَا يُؤْمِنُ بِهَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ فَتَرْدَى

"Therefore let not such as believe not therein but follow their own desires, divert thee therefrom, lest thou perish!"..

إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا أَسْمَاءٌ سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنْتُمْ وَءَابَاؤُكُمْ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِنْ سُلْطَانٍ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى الْأَنْفُسُ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَهُمْ مِنْ رَبِّهِمُ الْهُدَى

These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

وَمَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth.

You admit you don't have authority and you admit that you don't absolutely know for certain - and that you may never know, since you could always be wrong. Therefore, here is what Allah says:

وَمَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَإِنَّ الظَّنَّ لَا يُغْنِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ شَيْئًا

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth.

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Why does the quran say it is a clarity for all matters if it isn't clear?

According to 3:7, Muhkamaat are clear and the Mutashaabihaat are not. This is what the Book states clearly. It is in the latter that we need interpreters, and these are the Raasikhun.

You and I are proof of this. We are both looking at just the Qur'an and coming with different approaches. You say "yad" is metaphorical and I say it is not. So, one of us is not carrying out the law of God properly. One of us is acting according to our own opinion, not on the Command of Allah. One of us is Unjust.

فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا

Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah?

وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَهُوَ يُدْعَى إِلَى الْإِسْلَامِ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

And we must command by the Laws of God - and not our own opinions:

وَمَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ

If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.

So, it is no easy matter:

وَلَا تَقُولُوا لِمَا تَصِفُ أَلْسِنَتُكُمُ الْكَذِبَ هَذَا حَلَالٌ وَهَذَا حَرَامٌ لِتَفْتَرُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَفْتَرُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ لَا يُفْلِحُونَ

But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.

Now - you cannot guess whether "hand" is metaphorical or literal - you cannot guess whether this "cutting hand" is necessarily related to that "cutting hand", just as you cannot guess whether this "hand" is necessarily related to the "hand" in the Ablution verse. Conjecture and opinion are Haram, per Qur'anic injunction. There is need for certain knowledge of authoritative value, not based on my or your opinion, but somehow we need someone who is the mouthpiece of God and can tell us whether this is metaphorical and literal, etc.

In your Qur'anist view, how did Allah (swt) ensure that the Muslims do not follow their own opinionated conjectural interpretations of the Qur'an, and follow the intended interpretation of the Qur'an? How did Allah (swt) ensure that the correct laws are derived from a Book which history and the facts of history tell us causes so many differences - amongst People of Qur'an and Sunnah, and the People of Qur'an-alone. ?

Here is the major question.

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(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil
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How do we distort the Quran when we say ONLY read the Quran? Look do not get me wrong. A Quranist is someone who translates the Quran for themselves without the need of outside input. I believe in the 12 Blessed Imams but I also know they dedicated their lives to teaching the Quran and protecting it. Its amazing to note as well that the BIRTH OF THE HADITHS BOOK (BUKHARI) was written at the exact same time of the MAHDIs birth. Check it out for yourself.

So all the Imams came and stopped hadiths from being written and guided people with wise words FROM THE QURAN, your telling me however the guided poeple with wise words from hadiths. Give me a break.

I showed you numerous examples from the Quran saying stay away from any hadiths except the Quran

Also my friend, IF YOU BELIEVE IN HADITHS, you must accept the BIBLE as true. The bible was written by Hz Jesus's 12 disciples. They were rightly guided as we all know.

The BIBLE is the Hadith book of Hz Jesus, The Gospel of Hz Jesus is what he brought down. You have to also believe in the Talmud (the hadith book of Moses).

How am I secting? Please explain if I tell you to drop everything and ONLY read the orginal source, as Allah commanded us to and NOT to join any sects, how are we secting? You yourself are saying the Quran is not complete without hadiths. So you yourself are saying Mans writing is in comparisons with Allahs.

Please do not get me wrong. I love the Ahlul Bayt and the Bloodline. They were the most beautiful guides and Imams. They only taught the Quran however, not hadiths

The Quran says they sinned but all their sins were forgiven. If they did not sin what the use of them praying and asking for forgiveness? If we do not hold any prophet above one another and treat them all equal, how do you explain the Orginal Sin? How do you explain Hz David and the 2 angels story where he realised he sinned? How do you explain Hz Moses promising he will not ask a single question and asking 3? How do you explain Hz Jonah (Eyups) sin? How do you explain Hz Muhammad "frowned and turned away his face because there came up to him the blind man. " sin?

The Quran forigives he prophets and any Ahlul Bayt for sins. They were purified before, after and eternity. What they did were so mankind could have examples.

So Hadiths know what Islam is made of? Quran states in only one place that THE BOOK is COMPLETED and we can finally say we are from ISLAM. Hadiths are any addition to the completed book. Do a Phonetic Quran search on the word Hadith in the Quran. READ what the Quran says. Then tell me if its me being ignorant or if its yourself.

I do not know this guy and wouldnt follow him anyway. I translate the Quran for myself. Also the Quran specifically tells us that the Ahlul Bayt were purified, not his Sahihs. So in regards to your quote about Omar (for that matter Abu Bakr and Othman) I can not accept them on a higher status or even as a Caliph over the most beautiful example of how to be a Muslim, Imam Ali. This is clear from the Quran.

Rashid is a character who has grabbed the title of Quranist and warped its meaning. That like saying all Shias whip themselves or are part of Hizbullah, or all Sunnis hate Imam Ali.

My choosing to be a Quranist is not due to Rashid and his warped beliefs. It is due to my love for the Quran and not being able to comprehend any man wriiten words to even be accepted in conjunction with the Quran.

A Quranist translates for himself, if its the complete book, that also came to complete other Monothesist religions (Psalms, Gospel, Torah and Quran) Then how can you ADD a book AFTER and claim it to be required for me to understand the Quran. Quran states it is made simple for us to understand.

The Quran talks a lot about Ahlul Bayt and the Imam.

Even in El-Fatiah (that all Muslims say before praying) mentions them

Guide us in the Straight Path: The Path of those whom Thou hast blessed... (1:6-7)

More examples include

It is Allah's wish to remove all blemish from you, O Ahlul-Bayt, and purify you with a perfect purification. (33:33)

Say, I ask no reward from you for it except the love of my kinsfolk. And whosoever does a good deed we add unto it a greater good for him. Lo, Allah is Forgiving, Responsive. (42:23)

And whoever disputes with thee concerning him after the inspired knowledge which has been given unto thee, tell him, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons; our women and your women; and ourselves and yourselves; then let us pray and invoke Allah's curse upon those who lie." (3:61)

Hold fast to the Rope of Allah, all of you together and do not diverge. (3:103)

Be careful of your duty to Allah and be with the Truthful. (9:119)

Lo, this is My Straight Path, so follow it and do not follow other ways or else you will diverge from His way. (6:153)

O you believe, obey Allah and obey His Messenger and those amongst you who are give supreme authority (by Allah). (4:59)

Whoever opposes the Prophet after the guidance has been made manifest unto him and follows any path other than the path of the true believers, We will turn him towards that unto which he himself has turned, and We will expose him to Hell and a bad journey it will be. (4:115)

(O Prophet) Lo! thou art a warner and for every community there is a guide. (13:7)

They are those whom Allah has blessed among the prophets and the verifiers, the martyrs and the righteous. (4:69)

They (i.e., prophets and Imams) do not say anything until He orders, and they act (in all things) by His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they (i.e., those saints) offer no intercession except for anyone whom Allah accepts, and they are in awe and reverence of His (glory). (21:27-28)

Verily your master is only Allah, and His messenger and those among the believers who establish worship and pay the poor due while they are bowing down in prayer. (5:55)

And lo! Verily I am the Most forgiving towards him who repents and believes and does good and then follows the guidance. (20:82)

O you who believe, enter into peace, all of you, and do not follow the footsteps of the Satan. (2:208)

Then, on that day, you will be asked concerning the blessing. (102:8)

O you Messenger, convey what has been revealed unto you by your Lord, for if you do not do so, you will not have conveyed His message at all. And Allah will protect you from the people. Lo! Allah guides not the disbelieving folk (5:67)

This day have We perfected for you your religion and finalized Our blessing upon you, and We are pleased that Islam be your religion. (5:3)

A questioner asked for the inevitable punishment to befall the disbelievers which no one can avert. (70:1-2)

And when your Lord brought forth from the lions of the Children of Adam their seed, and made them bear testimony about their souls (He asked):"Am I not your Lord?" They said: "Yes, we bear witness." (7:172)

Or are they jealous of those men because of that which Allah has bestowed upon them in His bounty? (4:54)

None touches (the depth of meaning of Quran) save the purified ones. (56:79)

No one knows its interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly ground in knowledge. (3:7)

Ask the people of Reminder if you do not know. (21:7, 16:43)

I dont deny the Ahlul Bayt or the Imams. I just follow what they asked us to and what they struggled to teach us. The Quran

at the end of the day

I can claim to be a Muslim and following the oneness of Islam

You can only claim to be a sect of the Muslims and a sect of Islam

Dear FullyTabooly,

Omg omg omg.

Ok, I'm trying to get my head around this. There's so much to say..

So, you, being a "Quran only" dude, actually believe in the Ahlul Bayt and "you follow what they taught" .. Really? wow, what a contradiction....

1. How did you find out about imamate? Through the Quran? No, you found out through the "hadeeth", and then you saw how it was backed up in the Quran. There goes your "no hadeeth" theory.

2. You claim that the Holy Prophet sinned and was then forgiven... when the Ahlul Bayt, who you claim to follow, say otherwise! The Imams teach us that in Surah Abasa , it was NOT the prophet (sawa) who frowned and turned away and this has been proven (I'll post you evidence) .. If that was the case then It would directly contradict this verse: [Pickthal 68:4] And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.". The prophet was of highest standards of ethics and morality and the Quran attests to it! How can someone who has the highest standard of morals frown at a blind man and turn away? It's common sense!

3. The other divine books were corrupted so I don't know how you could possibly think it's Hadith lol ..Hadith is a tradition from the Prophet and Imams.

4. The Quran is "complete" but not in the way you're thinking. It's complete and clear in the sense that it lays down all the main principles clearly, not the details and rules. That is taken from the Ahlul Bayt (as). If you beg to differ, tell me the rules of prayer, hajj, zakat, fasting etc from the Quran.. can you? NO! And because you can't, you'll just reject it altogether , essentially going against Ahlul bayt and their teachings which you claim to follow.

I wanna say a lot more, but I'll just inbox you later.

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This for you, FullyTabooly ... Read carefully!!

  

Who Offended the Blind? 

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Chapter 80 (Abas)

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In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. 

80:1 

He (a certain Umayad chieftain) frowned and turned away (while he was with the Prophet). 

80:2 

Because there came to him the blind man (Ibn Um-Maktoom). 

80:3 

And what would make you know, but that, per chance, he (the blind man) might grow in purity, 

80:4 

Or become reminded so that the reminder should profit him? (the blind man) 

80:5 

As for him (the Umayad chieftain) who considers himself free from need (rich), 

80:6 

To him do you address yourself? 

80:7 

And it is not necessary for you (to preach that arrogant chieftain) if he does not purify himself. 

80:8 

And as to him who comes to you striving hard, 

80:9 

And he fears (Allah), 

80:10 

To him (his question) you did not pay attention? 

80:11 

Nay! surely this is (this chapter) a reminder. 

The occasion for the revelation of this Chapter was a historic event which took place. Once the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) was with some the rich individuals of Quraish from the tribe of Umayad, among them was Uthman Ibn Affan, who took the office of caliphate later. While the Messenger of Allah was preaching them, Abdullah Ibn Umm Maktoom who was blind and was one of the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) came to see him. The Holy Prophet received him with honor and pleasure and gave him the closest place to himself. However, the Prophet did not answer the question of the blind immediately Since he was at the middle of his speech with the Qura[Edited Out]es. Since Abdullah was poor and blind, the chieftains of the Quraish looked down upon him and they did not like the honor and the respect bestowed upon him by the Prophet (PBUH&HF). They also did not like the presence of the blind among themselves and his interrupting their conversation with the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Finally one of the wealthy Umayad (namely Uthman Ibn Affan) frowned at Abdullah and turned his back to him. 

This act of the chieftains of Quraish displeased Allah and thus He revealed the Chapter 80 (Abas) through Gabriel at the same time. This Chapter commended Abdullah's position though poor and blind. In the first 4 verses, Allah denounced the detesting attitude of the chieftain of the Quraish. And in the later verses, Allah * reminds * his Prophet (PBUH&HF) that preaching an unbeliever is not necessary if the unbeliever does not intend to purify himself and offenses a believer just because of his lack of wealth and health. 

There are some Sunni commentators who align the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) along with below-average ordinary morals, and accuse him of insulting Abdullah, and by that, they try to say that he was not free from the weakness of character and conduct. This is while the one who insulted the poor man was a wealthy member of Umayad who was either still non-Muslim, or had recently joint the companions (namely Uthman). Yet some people, in order to clear the face of Uthman from such misconduct, do not have any hesitation to accuse the Prophet of such action, and to put down the Prophet in favor of Uthman. Such twist of the event was done by the Umayad during their reign through pay-roll narrators. It is well-known that Umayad were the most ardent enemies of the family of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Islam; as such, it was not befitting of them that their leader, Uthman, be reprimanded in the Quran; thus, the scholars who worked for the Umayad were forced to write that this verse was revealed to reprimand the Prophet (PBUH&HF), not Uthman. Such flat-out lie was to preserve the dignity of Uthman with the price of humiliating the master of all the prophets. Here is the opinion of some Sunni commentators: 

It is said that these verses came down concerning Abdullah Ibn Maktoom, he is Abdullah Ibn Shareeh Ibn Malik Ibn Rabi'a al-Fihri from (the tribe of) Bani 'Amir Ibn Louay. He came to the Messenger of Allah while he was trying to convert these people to Islam: Utbah Ibn Rabi'ah, Abu Jahl Ibn Husham, al-Abbas Ibn Abd al-Muttalib, Ubay and Umayyah sons of Khalaf. The blind man said: "O Messenger of Allah read me and teach me from what Allah has taught you." He kept calling the Prophet and repeating his plea, not knowing that the Prophet was busy facing someone else, until the hatred appeared on the face of the Messenger of Allah for being interrupted. The Prophet said to himself these great people will say that his followers are but the blind and the slaves, so he turned away from him and faced the people he was talking to. Then the verses were revealed. 

After that the Messenger used to be kind to him and if he sees him he would say "welcome to the one whom my God reproached me in him". He used to ask him if he needed anything and kept him behind as the deputy on Medina twice during wars. 

The above Sunni commentary has also been mentioned in "al-Durr al- Manthoor", by al-Suyuti, with some minor differences. Abul Ala Maududi who is another Sunni commentator of Quran has a more moderate view. Here is his interpretation of Verse 80:17: 

Here displeasure has been expressed directly for the disbelievers who were being indifferent to the Message of truth. Before this, from the beginning of the Chapter to the Verse 16, the address though apparently directed to the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF), was actually mean to reprimand the disbelievers. 

Sunni reference: 

Commentary of Quran, by Abul Ala Maududi, p1005, under the commentary of verse 80:17 (Islamic Publications (Pvt.), Lahore) 

However, the fact is that Quran does NOT give any evidence that the person who frowned at the blind was the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and does not state who is being addressed. In the above verses of Quran Allah (SWT) did NOT address the Prophet either by name or title (i.e. O Muhammad, or O Prophet, or O Messenger). Moreover, there exists switching in the pronoun from "he" in the first two verses to "you" in the later verses of the chapter. Allah did NOT state: "You frowned and turned away". Rather, Almighty stated: 

80:1 

He frowned and turned away (while he was with the Prophet), 

80:2 

Because there came to him the blind man. 

80:3 

And what would make you know, but that, per chance, he (the blind man) might grow in purity, 

Even if we assume that "you" in the third verse addresses the Prophet (PBUH&HF), then it is clear from the above three verses that the words "he" (the one who frowned) and "you" address two different individuals. The following two verses support this as well: 

80:5 

As for him who considers himself free from need (rich), 

80:6 

To him do you address yourself? 

Thus the one who frowned was other than the Prophet himself due to distinction between "him" and "you". In Verses 80:6 Allah addresses his Prophet (PBUH&HF) saying that preaching arrogant members of Quraish who frown at a blind is not worthy and is not necessary to be preferred over preaching a blind, even though the blind came later. The reason is that preaching anyone who does not intend to purify himself (to the extend that he frowns at a believer) is not fruitful. 

Moreover, frowning is not from the manners/descriptions of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) even with his obvious enemies, let alone believers seeking guidance! One may question how can a Prophet (PBUH&HF) who was sent as a mercy to mankind be cruel when an AVERAGE believer does not in such behavior? This allegation is also in contradiction with the announcement of the sublime morals and the ethics of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) by God himself: 

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character)." (Quran, al-Qalam 68:4). 

A man who insult others does not deserve such compliments. It is agreed that Chapter al-Qalam (Ch. 68) came before Chapter Abas (Ch. 80). It was even revealed next after Chapter Iqra' (Ch. 96 -- the first revealed chapter). How could it be reasonable that Allah bestow greatness on his creature in the very beginning of his prophethood, declares that he is in the sublime morality, and thereafter reverts to reproach and criticize him on some apparent misgiving in his moral actions. 

Also Almighty said: 

And warn your near tribe, And be kind to him who follows you of the believers. (Quran 26:214-215) 

It is well known that these verses are early Meccan revelation. The same words can be found in the tail of verse 15:88. Allah, Exalted He is, furthermore said: 

Therefore declare openly what you are bidden and turn aside from the polytheists. (Quran 15:94) 

He was ordered to turn away from the unbelievers in this verse which is known to have been revealed at the beginning of the "open call to Islam" (after the initial secrecy period). 

How could it be imagined that after all these earlier commandments that the great, kind Prophet would err in such a way that would require pronounced interdiction? 

The commentators of Quran from the school of Ahlul-Bayt further argue that even the questioning in the third and forth verses of the Chapter concerning the doubt about Abdullah being benefited by the talk with the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) or not, has been in the mind of one who had not yet embraced Islam, and was not aware of the sprite of Islam. This could never have occurred in the mind of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) who has been sent to preach the faith to every one and all, irrespective of any worldly position of the People. Based on that, they conclude that the word 'you' in the third verse does not still apply to the Prophet, rather it applies to one of the Umayad attendees, and that NONE of the first four verses of this chapter (80:1-4) addresses the Prophet (PBUH&HF) even though the latter verses address the Prophet (PBUH&HF). 

Those who are familiar with the language of Quran and read the original Arabic Quran are aware of the constant jumping between the first, second, and third person writing style of Quran. In many verses in Quran Allah changes the address sharply, and as such, it is not always easy to figure out who is being addressed when the name of addressee is not mentioned. That's why the Prophet has ordered us to refer to Ahlul-Bayt  for the interpretation of the verses of Quran since they are "firmly grounded in knowledge" (Quran 3:7) and are "The People of Reminder" (Quran 16:43, 21:7) and the are the purified people who have touched the meaning of Quran (see 56:79). 

It is narrated that Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq  said: 

It came down regarding a man from the Umayad; he was at the Prophet's (PBUH&HF) presence, then Ibn Umm-Maktoom came, when he saw him he despised him, withdrew himself, frowned and turned his face away from him. So Allah said what He said in disapproval of his action. 

Also it is told that Imam al-Sadiq  said: 

"Whenever the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saw Abdullah Ibn Umm- Maktoom, he said: Welcome, welcome, by Allah, you won't find Allah reproaching me in you ever (80:5-11). He used to get kindness from the Prophet so much that he used to avoid from (being in the presence of) the Prophet (PBUH&HF), because of what the Prophet used to do to him." Out of shyness. 

In Tafsir of Sayyid Shubbar it is reported from al-Qummi that: 

The verse was revealed about Uthman and Ibn Umm-Maktoom, and he was blind. He came to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), while in the company of companions, and Uthman was there. The Messenger introduced him to Uthman and Uthman frowned and turned his face away. 

Allah Almighty said in Quran about Prophet Muhammad that: 

Nor does he (Muhammad) speak out of his desire. It is nothing but revelation that is revealed. (Quran 53:3-4). 

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(_S /: (_S / / (_) (_S / (_) (_/ : /

So how can the Prophet (PBUH&HF) say something offensive if his speeches are revelation or inspiration?! The Prophet never speaks out of his own desire. Interestingly, Sunnis confirm that Chapter Abas (Ch. 80) was revealed RIGHT AFTER Chapter al-Najm (Ch. 53) where it states the Prophet does not speak out of his desire. 

Also Verse 33:33 of the Holy Quran confirms that Ahlul-Bayt are perfectly pure and flawless. We all know that the virtue of the Prophet was higher than that of his family. He is also counted among Ahlul-Bayt. Then how can he offend a believer and yet maintains PERFECT purity?! 

Also note that in the revealed verses Allah states: 

And it is not necessary for you (to preach that arrogant chieftain) if he does not purify himself. (Quran 80:7) 

The above does NOT mean that what the Prophet did was a mistake, because Allah uses the phrase "it is not necessary for you". This means the Prophet's choice was not wrong, but it was not something necessary to do. 

Also when Allah states: Preaching him is not necessary "IF" the Qura[Edited Out]e does not purify himself. Well, the Prophet (PBUH&HF) did not know beforehand that the Qura[Edited Out]e is going to frown at the blind, as such, the "IF" condition has not been satisfied and therefore what the Prophet did was necessary before the time that man frowned (because the Prophet was at the middle of his speech with those Qura[Edited Out]es when the blind man arrived). And as soon as the Qura[Edited Out]e frowned, the Prophet stopped preaching, and the verses was revealed. As we can see, what the Prophet (PBUH&HF) did was his duty second by second. 

The reminder was for future, as is the case of another verse of Quran where Allah reminds his Prophet that it is not necessary for him to bother himself too much for guiding people since some of them can never be guided, and the Prophet should not be unhappy about those. 

In conclusion, we provided evidences from Quran, Hadith, History, and Arabic grammar, to support the fact that the very early verses of this chapter do NOT refer to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and the one who frowned at the blind was not the Prophet (PBUH&HF). We also mentioned that Verses 80:5-11 were just a reminder for the future to the Prophet Muhammad that preaching an unbeliever is not fruitful if the unbeliever does not try to purify himself and when the unbeliever offends a believer just because of his lack of wealth and health. 

Wassalam. 

Shi'i references: 

1. 

al-Mizan, by al-Tabataba'i (Arabic), v20, pp 222-224 

2. 

al-Jawhar al-Thameen fi Tafsir al-Kitab al-Mubeen, by Sayyid Abdullah Shubbar, v6, p363 

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So, you, being a "Quran only" dude, actually believe in the Ahlul Bayt and "you follow what they taught" .. Really? wow, what a contradiction....

You tell me what they taught.

Was it not the QURAN only

. I follow what they taught. I believe they existed and were guided BUT Man does not have to tell me what they taught, Allah already has. Theres no contradiction.

1. How did you find out about imamate? Through the Quran? No, you found out through the "hadeeth", and then you saw how it was backed up in the Quran. There goes your "no hadeeth" theory.

History also tells us they existed. History also tells us they were persecuted and mistreated.

Let me ask you how do you determine what is a legit hadith? You compare it to the Quran correct. Thats the only way. Correct

The Imams came after the Quran was revealed. So how do you compare this to the Quran?

So all you now have is Mans word.

Also LOOKING AT HISTORY, we have the 12 sons of Hz Ismael, We have the 12 disciples of Hz Jesus, The 12 princes of Egypt, The 12 Imams would not be a hard to believe statement seeing as though 12 repeats itself so many times. I didnt need Hadiths to explain anything.

Also History doesnt tell me to change my belief methods. Hadiths do however. Which hadith books do you believe in? Based on that I will give you a more detailed answer. Bukhari?

2. You claim that the Holy Prophet sinned and was then forgiven... when the Ahlul Bayt, who you claim to follow, say otherwise! The Imams teach us that in Surah Abasa , it was NOT the prophet (sawa) who frowned and turned away and this has been proven (I'll post you evidence) .. If that was the case then It would directly contradict this verse: [Pickthal 68:4] And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.". The prophet was of highest standards of ethics and morality and the Quran attests to it! How can someone who has the highest standard of morals frown at a blind man and turn away? It's common sense!

Your evidence will go against other hadith books, now man is fighting mans word. Show me evidence from Quran and ill believe you.

Answer this one as well

33.37 And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him

Allah says FEAR ME Alone, Hz Muhammad "Feared the people". Again like I said before, they were purified and all sins removed before and after, but they did sin. They were Human, only Allah is perfect

3. The other divine books were corrupted so I don't know how you could possibly think it's Hadith lol ..Hadith is a tradition from the Prophet and Imams.

Bible is a hadith book. It is (in your own words)"a tradition from the Prophet and Imams". It is the hadith book of Hz Jesus and the Rightly guided 12 Disciples or Imams.

The book itself "THE GOSPEL of JESUS" is not the same book as the BIBLE.

We have never seen the Gospel of Jesus. So we cant comment on the contents of it but what we do have is the HADITHS of Hz Jesus in the bible. So you have to believe it if you believe the hadiths of Hz Muhammad

4. The Quran is "complete" but not in the way you're thinking. It's complete and clear in the sense that it lays down all the main principles clearly, not the details and rules. That is taken from the Ahlul Bayt (as). If you beg to differ, tell me the rules of prayer, hajj, zakat, fasting etc from the Quran.. can you? NO! And because you can't, you'll just reject it altogether , essentially going against Ahlul bayt and their teachings which you claim to follow.

Let me get this right,

There is only 2 options. Its either Complete or NOT COMPLETE. I say it is complete, you say it is not complete in the way i think. I say I want to follow only one book, you say I have to follow other books to understand 1 book. I say Its details and Rules are complete, you say they are not.

Are you serious on asking

tell me the rules of prayer, hajj, zakat, fasting etc from the Quran.. can you? NO

So your telling me again the Quran is incomplete.

Furthermore you are telling me that the Quran doesnt teach me how to pray, what to do at the sacred mosque, zakat, fasting.

Are you kidding?

Do you really want me to quote exactly what to do with all of them. Maybe you should read the Quran. That is the whole purpose of the Quran. If you want me to I will but please be ready to read a very long post.

Wake up. The book is Complete. You cant say NOT THE DETAILS AND RULES. The if it doesnt have details and rules, it is incomplete and hence you are contradicting yourself.

Heres something for you to ponder about. Quran says that every prophet/imam had an enemy and no nation has existed without a prophet/imam.

Hadiths appeared (in written format) exactly at the same time (THE SAME YEAR) as the Mahdi disappearing.

The Mahdi (according to your hadiths) is hidden, just like the Asabl Kaf story of the people in the cave. He is sleeping and will wake when the time is right. Correct. (According to your hadiths). Some even say he is down a well.

Simple mathematics say that the Dajjal is actually the Hadiths. Look at what hadiths are doing, when they came, their specific details and you will realize that the true enemy of Islam, the only way Islam has been penetrated is via hadiths.

Dajjal means "Deceiver" or "Imposter". Hadiths deceive or impose on the Quran.

Look at all the details of the Dajjal according to your hadiths.

I dont believe this but it is something to think about

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1. How did you find out the names of each Imam? is it in the Quran? no, it's not, it's in the Hadith. You've looked at history ... History is a form of Hadith ! Hadith in Arabic means narration, and history narrations can also either be true or false.

I do not follow Bukhari or any Sunni Hadith books as I don't hold them to be authentic and it's full of contradictions and erroneous fabrications. I read Hadith books like Al Kafi and others that have narrations from the Ahlul Bayt with strong narrative chains.

2. I gave you evidence in post 55. As for 33:37 ..."You did fear the people" implies that the right course should be followed, whether the people like it or not, as said in verse 54 of Ma-idah: "They fear not the censure of the censurers."

3. See, you couldn't answer me on the rules and details of prayers, hajj etc because you know yourself that the Quran doesn't have it. The Quran itself says to "ask people of remembrance if you do not know" ie the Ahlul Bayt (as) , that's where you get your religion from, whilst the Quran is the Principle, Ahlul Bayt are the detail.

Tell me, from the Quran since you claim you can, what do I say in my prayer? How many times do I perform tawaf around the Kaaba? How much zakat must I pay? what things invalidate my fasts and acts of worship? Etc.. Tell me every infintisemal detail... You know for a fact, that you cannot.

4. The Ahlul Bayt used the Quran, yes. But how? They explained it to people! That's where the Hadith comes in!

Edited by Layla40
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Before I begin with your responses firstly understand that you are asking all the questions yet not answering any of mine. I have ask numerous questions that you have overlooked. Im waiting for your responses as well

1. How did you find out the names of each Imam? is it in the Quran? no, it's not, it's in the Hadith. You've looked at history ... History is a form of Hadith ! Hadith in Arabic means narration, and history narrations can also either be true or false.

History is a non-biased form of ancestorial information. History like I said before does not TEACH you what to do but tells you what they done. No one has History as a religious book and compare it to their guided texts. Hadith are held at the same level as the Quran.

Again you are saying I have to read the guide THEN I will understand the Quran. Let me ask you (I'm pretty sure it will be another un-answered question like all the others before) When Islam was first preached and people in Africa, Europe and Asia started converting (or reverting) Did they have hadith books to assist them or Soely the Quran. So were these people on the wrong path?

Layla40 please read the Quran

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6

"God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

"Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44

"Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?" 77:50

Tell me please Layla40 that the Quran is wrong. The Quran has all the sufficient hadiths in it. We dont need man to tell us how God works.

I do not follow Bukhari or any Sunni Hadith books as I don't hold them to be authentic and it's full of contradictions and erroneous fabrications. I read Hadith books like Al Kafi and others that have narrations from the Ahlul Bayt with strong narrative chains.

For your information Kulaynis aim of Kitab Al-Kafi was to collect as many hadith as possible pertaining to the Shia school of thought. Narrations were not cross referenced or checked for authenticity but rather collected extensively to collate as many narrations as possible for future reference.

Mulla Baqir Majlisi stating in his commentary on al-Kafi, named Mir’at al-’Uqul, that 58% of narrations in al-Kafi are unreliable.

Of the basic traditions, 5,072 are considered sahīh (sound); 144 are regarded as hasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwaththaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawī‘ (strong), fourth category; and 9,485 are considered da‘īf (weak), fifth Now if I come back to you and say a hadith from Al Kafi you will just say thats a weak hadith. But if you like it you will agree with it.

Yet the Quran is pure and you want me to look at an inpure book, with more than 58% unreliable, to understand the purity?

Hypothetically speaking,

You have 2 people at court.

One never lies and is trusted by everyone (the Quran), The other only tells the truth 42% of the time (Al Kafi). Mind you when ask another friend (Sunni) about the liar, he says the amount is actually a lot higher and more like 85% to 90% of the time that he lies.

Your being judged. Do you really think the jury have to ask the liar, or anyone else to see that the trusted person is correct?

Yet your telling me the liar is the one who explains the pure Quran. How?

2. I gave you evidence in post 55. As for 33:37 ..."You did fear the people" implies that the right course should be followed, whether the people like it or not, as said in verse 54 of Ma-idah: "They fear not the censure of the censurers."

No Layla it implies that Hz Muhammad feared the people when he should have feared Allah. If they were ALWAYS Error free why did they pray and ask for forgiveness?

3. See, you couldn't answer me on the rules and details of prayers, hajj etc because you know yourself that the Quran doesn't have it. The Quran itself says to "ask people of remembrance if you do not know" ie the Ahlul Bayt (as) , that's where you get your religion from, whilst the Quran is the Principle, Ahlul Bayt are the detail.
Please Layla you are sinning by saying "Quran doesn't have it". How can you say the Quran is missing things. Please stop this for your own sake

Actually I can.

Five prayers are mentioned in the Quran, their time is clearly mentioned in several verses and that all the steps we do are found also in the Quran.

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238

(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114

(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Some of the verses that describe in detail at the bottom:

"...the contact prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times. " 4:103

God himself describes some of the most beautiful prayers in Quran from which we can take an example about how we should pray and what we should say. Here is a beautiful example from some verses in Chapter Al-i Imran

"190. Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for men of understanding

191. Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting or (reclining) on their backs, and reflect in the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): ‘Our Lord! You have not created this in vain. Glory to You! Save us, then, from the chastisement of the Fire.

192. Our Lord! Whomever You cause to enter the Fire, him You indeed bring to disgrace, and there will be none to succour the wrong-doers.

193. Our Lord! Indeed we heard a crier calling to the faith saying: “Believe in your Lord”; so we did believe. Our Lord, forgive us our sins, and wipe out our evil deeds and make us die with the truly pious.’

194. ‘Our Lord, fulfil what You promised to us through Your Messengers, and disgrace us not on the Day of Resurrection; indeed You never go back on Your promise.’

195. Their Lord answered the Prayer thus: ‘I will not suffer the work of any of you, whether male or female, to go to waste; each of you is from the other. Those who emigrated and were driven out from their homesteads and were persecuted in My cause, and who fought and were slain, indeed I shall wipe out their evil deeds from them and shall certainly admit them to the gardens beneath which rivers flow.’ This is their reward with their Lord; and with Allah lies the best reward."

First we could understand that if God mentions believers' prayes in Quran, it means God teaches us how to pray by giving this example. Our prayers may follow the exact words from Quran, it might also be similar in context.

In the first verse(190), God gives the rationale for prayer, mentioning how everything in the universe remind us of our Lord.

In the second verse(191), God teaches us how we can pray and think about God all the times during the day by asking to pray while sitting, standing. If we are careful, we can notice that we are either standing, sitting or reclining during all day, which indicates that God is remembered all the time.

Also in (191-192), first Allah is glorified and respected by praising God, then it comes to ask something, which is asking protection from hell. Since it is most important for Quran that a person think about the end of his life and his eternal life in hereafter, in this verse the believers only ask protection from hell, not a worldly thing.

Again in (192-193) God and his absolute power and will is verbalized, the servant's weakness, sinfullness is stressed and God's forgiveness is sought. This is the perfect example of how we should be humble and respectful in our attitude towards God.

And in the last verse, 195, God is giving their prayers the most wonderful answer and it is promised for those who pray and live their life like those believers in the verse.

ZAKAT

[21:73] "We made them (Abraham and his sons) imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers."

[17:26-29] You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the travelling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.

The extravagant are brethren of the devils, and the devil is unappreciative of his Lord. Even if you have to turn away from them, as you pursue the mercy of your Lord, you shall treat them in the nicest manner. You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry.

[6:141] "Eat from their fruits, and give the due alms on the day of harvest"

[2:215] "They ask you about giving: say, "The charity you give shall go to the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, and the traveling alien." Any good you do, God is fully aware thereof."

[9:60] Charities(Sadaqaat) shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of Allah, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[2:3] who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

[2:43] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and bow down with those who bow down.

[2:83] We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: "You shall not worship except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)." But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.

[2:110] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat). Any good you send forth on behalf of your souls, you will find it at Allah. Allah is seer of everything you do.

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.

[2:196] You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity: say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

[2:254] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the provisions we have given to you, before a day comes where there is no trade, no nepotism, and no intercession. The disbelievers are the unjust.

[2:262] Those who spend their money in the cause of GOD, then do not follow their charity with insult or harm, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:263] Kind words and compassion are better than a charity that is followed by insult. GOD is Rich, Clement.

[2:267] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the good things you earn, and from what we have produced for you from the earth. Do not pick out the bad therein to give away, when you yourselves do not accept it unless your eyes are closed. You should know that Allah is Rich, Praiseworthy.

[2:270] Any charity you give, or a charitable pledge you fulfill, GOD is fully aware thereof. As for the wicked, they will have no helpers.

[2:272] You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). Any charity you give is for your own good. Any charity you give shall be for the sake of GOD. Any charity you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.

[2:273] Charity shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of GOD, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from the people persistently. Whatever charity you give, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[2:274] Those who give to charity night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:277] Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:280] If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew.

[3:92] You cannot attain righteousness until you give to charity from the possessions you love. Whatever you give to charity, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[3:134] who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable.

[4:38] They give money to charity only to show off, while disbelieving in GOD and the Last Day. If one's companion is the devil, that is the worst companion.

[4:77] Have you noted those who were told, "You do not have to fight; all you need to do is observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)," then, when fighting was decreed for them, they feared the people as much as they feared GOD, or even more? They said, "Our Lord, why did You force this fighting on us? If only You respite us for awhile!" Say, "The materials of this world are nil, while the Hereafter is far better for the righteous, and you never suffer the slightest injustice."

[4:162] As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the Contact Prayers (Salat), and givers of the obligatory charity (Zakat); they are believers in GOD and the Last Day. We grant these a great recompense.

[5:12] GOD had taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we raised among them twelve patriarchs. And GOD said, "I am with you, so long as you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and believe in My messengers and respect them, and continue to lend GOD a loan of righteousness. I will then remit your sins, and admit you into gardens with flowing streams. Anyone who disbelieves after this, has indeed strayed off the right path."

[5:45] And we decreed for them in it that: the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in

accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

[5:55] Your real allies are GOD and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they bow down.

[7:156-157] "And decree for us righteousness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have repented to You." He said, "My retribution befalls whomever I will. But My mercy encompasses all things. However, I will specify it for those who (1) lead a righteous life, (2) give the obligatory charity (Zakat), (3) believe in our revelations, and "(4) follow the messenger, the gentile prophet (Muhammad), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones."

[9:11] If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.

[9:18] The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones.

[9:54] What prevented the acceptance of their spending is that they disbelieved in GOD and His messenger, and when they observed the Contact Prayers (Salat), they observed them lazily, and when they gave to charity, they did so grudgingly.

[9:71] The believing men and women are allies of one another. They advocate righteousness and forbid evil, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey GOD and His messenger. These will be showered by GOD's mercy. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[9:103] Take from their money a charity to purify them and sanctify them. And encourage them, for your encouragement reassures them. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[14:31] Exhort My servants who believed to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and to give (to charity) from our provisions to them, secretly and publicly, before a day comes where there is neither trade, nor nepotism.

[16:75] GOD cites the example of a slave who is owned, and is totally powerless, compared to one whom we blessed with good provisions, from which he gives to charity secretly and publicly. Are they equal? Praise be to GOD, most of them do not know.

[16:90] GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.

[21:73] We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.

[22:35] They are the ones whose hearts tremble upon mentioning GOD, they steadfastly persevere during adversity, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

[22:41] They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat), and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler.

[22:78] You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Muslims" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and hold fast to Allah; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.

[24:37] People who are not distracted by business or trade from commemorating GOD; they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they are conscious of the day when the minds and the eyes will be horrified.

[24:56] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and obey the messenger, that you may attain mercy.

[30:38] Therefore, you shall give the relatives their rightful share (of charity), as well as the poor, and the traveling alien. This is better for those who sincerely seek GOD's pleasure; they are the winners.

[30:39] The usury that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at GOD. But if you give to charity, seeking GOD's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward manifold.

[41:7] "Who do not give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers."

[57:7] Believe in GOD and His messenger, and give from what He has bestowed upon you. Those among you who believe and give (to charity) have deserved a great recompense.

[64:16] Therefore, you shall reverence GOD as much as you can, and listen, and obey, and give (to charity) for your own good. Anyone who is protected from his own stinginess, these are the successful ones.

[98:5] All that was asked of them was to worship GOD, devoting the religion absolutely to Him alone, observe the contact prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat). Such is the perfect religion.

[107:1-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity.

[108:1-2] We have blessed you with many a bounty. Therefore, you shall pray to your Lord (Salat), and give to charity.

[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"

[16:89] "We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything."

[6:114]"......He has revealed to you this book fully detailed."

Let me ask you now and Im sure your not going to answer it. Quran says any form of idols are a sin. An idol is a representation of something else, not limited to spiritual. In Ancient Greece, Egypt and Middle East they use to have idols for everything. The good, the bad, the weather, the sun, the moon, the financial, for food suppiles, rain EVERYTHING.

WE agree that any of them are wrong. Quran says so correct.

YET HADITHS TELL ME I HAVE TO STONE THE DEVIL when I see the sacred mosque. Not Quran.

But isn't this idolating? You are considering something man made to be a representation of one of gods creations. Doesn't the koran state idolaters would be punished?

It says in the koran many times that the idols will be called up and asked if they were the ones who misled, and they will say no. This is an idol and throwing stones at it gives the human some feeling of accomplishment or a feeling of relief that they stoned shaytan. To be honest I will be going hajj this year but i refuse to stone shaytan. I recommend most people ask their religious leaders about this practice and hopefully we can stop the ridiculous practice

Tell me, from the Quran since you claim you can, what do I say in my prayer? How many times do I perform tawaf around the Kaaba? How much zakat must I pay? what things invalidate my fasts and acts of worship? Etc.. Tell me every infintisemal detail... You know for a fact, that you cannot.

Allah has told you in the Quran ON EVERY PAGE ask for forgiveness. Thank Allah, ask to be rightly guided, Ask Allah to keep evil away. Are you serious Layla40 that you have never seen a pray in the Quran? Have you ever read the Quran. The reason I'm not posting is because its too long. I will answer all of these inshallah when i get back from work. But till then I'll ask you the same question Tell me every infintisemal detail where it says it in hadiths. Lets see how long yours is going to be.

I'll be honest I can not answer the how many times around cause it is not stated in the Quran NOR DOES IT SAY YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

4. The Ahlul Bayt used the Quran, yes. But how? They explained it to people! That's where the Hadith comes in!

Ok Layla40. When were the hadiths written. Were they at the exact same time of the prophet? No. Were they at the same time as the Imams? No. They were after them. So your telling me MAN who always gets it wrong is going to explain to me about the purified ones. Give me a break. Listen to what your saying. Your addition onto PERFECTION (The Quran) has actually become an IMPERFECTION. Thats simple mathematics. If you have any that is perfection and can not be added anymore, adding something becomes an imperfection.

Please go back and answer ALL my questions from my posts. This is a conversation where I can also ask questions, not just a one way street

Waiting for your response Layla40 ^^

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Before I begin with your responses firstly understand that you are asking all the questions yet not answering any of mine. I have ask numerous questions that you have overlooked. Im waiting for your responses as well

I am actually trying to answer all your questions, maybe I missed a few out since the answer is based on common sense.

History is a non-biased form of ancestorial information. History like I said before does not TEACH you what to do but tells you what they done. No one has History as a religious book and compare it to their guided texts. Hadith are held at the same level as the Quran.

Again you are saying I have to read the guide THEN I will understand the Quran. Let me ask you (I'm pretty sure it will be another un-answered question like all the others before) When Islam was first preached and people in Africa, Europe and Asia started converting (or reverting) Did they have hadith books to assist them or Soely the Quran. So were these people on the wrong path?

Layla40 please read the Quran

"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?" 7:185 

"Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution." 31:6 

"God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them." 39:23 

"These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6 

"Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful." 52:34 

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44 

"Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?" 77:50

Tell me please Layla40 that the Quran is wrong. The Quran has all the sufficient hadiths in it. We dont need man to tell us how God works. 

The spread of Islam started shortly after the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad in 632 AD. During his lifetime, the community of Muhammad, the ummah, was established in the Arabian Peninsula by means of conversion to Islam and conquering of territory. In the first centuries conversion to Islam followed the rapid growth of the Islamic world under the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs. (Hence why majority are Sunni and Wahabbi)

Muslim dynasties were soon established and subsequent empires such as those of the Abbasids, Fatimids, Almoravids, Seljuk Turks, Mughals in India and Safavids in Persia and Ottomans were among the largest and most powerful in the world. The Islamic world was composed of numerous sophisticated centers of culture and science with far-reaching mercantile networks, travelers, scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, doctors and philosophers, all of whom contributed to the Golden Age of Islam.

The Holy Prophet sent messages to people of different nationalities inviting them to the message of Islam and these people received guidance from the Quran as well as the Holy Prophet. After the Holy Prophet passed away, His Ahlul Bayt (as) were heavily oppressed as seen from the Event of Ashura. Even after this most tragic event, the progeny of Imams (as) were oppressed and killed by the corrupt leaders. During the lifetime of the Imams (as), they gave the exegesis of the Quran, wisdom, knowledge and debated intellectually with different nations and ethnicities about theology, converting many people to Islam and people wrote down the conversations of the imams and wrote down their saying of guidance and teaching .. Which we have today as Hadith.

We do not place Hadith and Quran at the same level, we need the narrations of the Ahlul Bayt (as) to give us the correct interpretation of the Quran, otherwise people, such as yourself, will misinterpret words like "Hadith" in the Quranic verses and take it Completely out of context.

And since you have no problem with accepting history, you should read history about the final days of the Holy Prophet and what happened after His death. Then you'll realize where you got your nonsensical ideology from. 

For your information Kulaynis aim of Kitab Al-Kafi was to collect as many hadith as possible pertaining to the Shia school of thought. Narrations were not cross referenced or checked for authenticity but rather collected extensively to collate as many narrations as possible for future reference.

Mulla Baqir Majlisi stating in his commentary on al-Kafi, named Mir’at al-’Uqul, that 58% of narrations in al-Kafi are unreliable.

Of the basic traditions, 5,072 are considered sahīh (sound); 144 are regarded as hasan (good), second category; 1,118 are held to be muwaththaq (trustworthy), third category; 302 are adjudged to be qawī‘ (strong), fourth category; and 9,485 are considered da‘īf (weak), fifth Now if I come back to you and say a hadith from Al Kafi you will just say thats a weak hadith. But if you like it you will agree with it. 

Yet the Quran is pure and you want me to look at an inpure book, with more than 58% unreliable, to understand the purity?

Hypothetically speaking, 

You have 2 people at court.

One never lies and is trusted by everyone (the Quran), The other only tells the truth 42% of the time (Al Kafi). Mind you when ask another friend (Sunni) about the liar, he says the amount is actually a lot higher and more like 85% to 90% of the time that he lies.

Your being judged. Do you really think the jury have to ask the liar, or anyone else to see that the trusted person is correct?

Yet your telling me the liar is the one who explains the pure Quran. How?

There may be some fabricated hadiths (or they may appear fabricated) , but this is inevitable. That's why the Imams have told us, whatever hadiths contradict the Quran then reject them. 

You "court" example is completely out of context. The narrations of the Quran are used to explain the depth of the Quran, something which will never know if we try to interpret it ourselves.

Heres an example of a Hadith from Imam Ali (as):

"Man comes from a drop of semen and leaves as a piece of dust. He doesn't know when he came and he doesn't know when he's leaving, yet he goes around thinking he knows everything." - oh yh it's really "polytheistic" to accept these authentic Hadith of wisdom. (sarcasm)

And since you know there are authentic Hadith in Al Kafi, why don't you look at them and accept them? After all, they are from our Holy Imams (as) who you apparently claim to follow.

No Layla it implies that Hz Muhammad feared the people when he should have feared Allah. If they were ALWAYS Error free why did they pray and ask for forgiveness?

Al Saduq in 'Uyun akhbar al-Rida has reported with his isnad from 'Ali ibn Muhammad ibn al-Jahm that he said: "I was present in al-Ma'mun's gathering when al-Rida, upon whom be peace, was also with him. There al-Ma'mun said to him: 'O son of the Messenger of Allah, don't you claim that the prophets are secure from error (ma'sumun)?' He replied 'Yes'. Al-Ma'mun said: 'Then what is the meaning of the utterance of God,  "Al-Rida, upon whom be peace, replied, 'The polytheists of Makkah did not consider anyone a greater sinner than the Messenger of Allah, upon whom and whose progeny be God's peace and benedictions, because they worshipped instead of Allah three hundred and sixty idols. When the Prophet - may God's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny - came to them with the call to pure monotheism (ikhlas), it appeared to them as a monstrosity, and they declared: "What, has he made the gods One God? This is indeed an odd thing .... Go! Be steadfast to your gods; this is a thing to be desired. We have not heard of this in the last religion, this is surely an invention." (38:5-7 ).

"'When God Almighty opened Makkah to His Prophet - may God's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny - He said to him: "O Muhammad! Surely We have opened for thee a manifest opening, that God may forgive thee what the polytheists of Makkah regarded as thy former and latter 'sins' on account of thy call to the Unity of God." Some of the polytheists of Makkah had embraced Islam and some had left Makkah, and those who remained there had no, power to repudiate the Prophet's call to tawhid. In this way that which was the Prophet's sin in their eyes came to be condoned by means of his domination over them.' Thereat al-Ma'mun said: 'You are wounderful, O Abu al-Hasan!' " [12]

This is just one of the explanations^^

You Must Read this link, it explains the infallibility of The Prophet beautifully and in great detail.  .... http://www.al-islam.org/fortyhadith/22.htm

Please Layla you are sinning by saying "Quran doesn't have it". How can you say the Quran is missing things. Please stop this for your own sake

Actually I can.

Five prayers are mentioned in the Quran, their time is clearly mentioned in several verses and that all the steps we do are found also in the Quran. 

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58 

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238 

(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114 

(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58 

Some of the verses that describe in detail at the bottom:

"...the contact prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times. " 4:103 

God himself describes some of the most beautiful prayers in Quran from which we can take an example about how we should pray and what we should say. Here is a beautiful example from some verses in Chapter Al-i Imran 

"190. Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for men of understanding 

191. Those who remember Allah while standing, sitting or (reclining) on their backs, and reflect in the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): ‘Our Lord! You have not created this in vain. Glory to You! Save us, then, from the chastisement of the Fire. 

192. Our Lord! Whomever You cause to enter the Fire, him You indeed bring to disgrace, and there will be none to succour the wrong-doers. 

193. Our Lord! Indeed we heard a crier calling to the faith saying: “Believe in your Lord”; so we did believe. Our Lord, forgive us our sins, and wipe out our evil deeds and make us die with the truly pious.’ 

194. ‘Our Lord, fulfil what You promised to us through Your Messengers, and disgrace us not on the Day of Resurrection; indeed You never go back on Your promise.’ 

195. Their Lord answered the Prayer thus: ‘I will not suffer the work of any of you, whether male or female, to go to waste; each of you is from the other. Those who emigrated and were driven out from their homesteads and were persecuted in My cause, and who fought and were slain, indeed I shall wipe out their evil deeds from them and shall certainly admit them to the gardens beneath which rivers flow.’ This is their reward with their Lord; and with Allah lies the best reward."

First we could understand that if God mentions believers' prayes in Quran, it means God teaches us how to pray by giving this example. Our prayers may follow the exact words from Quran, it might also be similar in context. 

In the first verse(190), God gives the rationale for prayer, mentioning how everything in the universe remind us of our Lord. 

In the second verse(191), God teaches us how we can pray and think about God all the times during the day by asking to pray while sitting, standing. If we are careful, we can notice that we are either standing, sitting or reclining during all day, which indicates that God is remembered all the time. 

Also in (191-192), first Allah is glorified and respected by praising God, then it comes to ask something, which is asking protection from hell. Since it is most important for Quran that a person think about the end of his life and his eternal life in hereafter, in this verse the believers only ask protection from hell, not a worldly thing. 

Again in (192-193) God and his absolute power and will is verbalized, the servant's weakness, sinfullness is stressed and God's forgiveness is sought. This is the perfect example of how we should be humble and respectful in our attitude towards God. 

And in the last verse, 195, God is giving their prayers the most wonderful answer and it is promised for those who pray and live their life like those believers in the verse.

ZAKAT

[21:73] "We made them (Abraham and his sons) imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers." 

[17:26-29] You shall give the due alms to the relatives, the needy, the poor, and the travelling alien, but do not be excessive, extravagant.

The extravagant are brethren of the devils, and the devil is unappreciative of his Lord. Even if you have to turn away from them, as you pursue the mercy of your Lord, you shall treat them in the nicest manner. You shall not keep your hand stingily tied to your neck, nor shall you foolishly open it up, lest you end up blamed and sorry.

[6:141] "Eat from their fruits, and give the due alms on the day of harvest" 

[2:215] "They ask you about giving: say, "The charity you give shall go to the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, and the traveling alien." Any good you do, God is fully aware thereof." 

[9:60] Charities(Sadaqaat) shall go to the poor, the needy, the workers who collect them, the new converts, to free the slaves, to those burdened by sudden expenses, in the cause of Allah, and to the traveling alien. Such is GOD's commandment. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[2:3] who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

[2:43] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and bow down with those who bow down.

[2:83] We made a covenant with the Children of Israel: "You shall not worship except GOD. You shall honor your parents and regard the relatives, the orphans, and the poor. You shall treat the people amicably. You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)." But you turned away, except a few of you, and you became averse.

[2:110] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat). Any good you send forth on behalf of your souls, you will find it at Allah. Allah is seer of everything you do.

[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous.

[2:196] You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj and`Umrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury (and you must cut your hair), you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam (sanctity) between `Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.

[2:219] They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity: say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,

[2:254] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the provisions we have given to you, before a day comes where there is no trade, no nepotism, and no intercession. The disbelievers are the unjust.

[2:262] Those who spend their money in the cause of GOD, then do not follow their charity with insult or harm, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:263] Kind words and compassion are better than a charity that is followed by insult. GOD is Rich, Clement.

[2:267] O you who believe, you shall give to charity from the good things you earn, and from what we have produced for you from the earth. Do not pick out the bad therein to give away, when you yourselves do not accept it unless your eyes are closed. You should know that Allah is Rich, Praiseworthy.

[2:270] Any charity you give, or a charitable pledge you fulfill, GOD is fully aware thereof. As for the wicked, they will have no helpers.

[2:272] You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). Any charity you give is for your own good. Any charity you give shall be for the sake of GOD. Any charity you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.

[2:273] Charity shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of GOD, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from the people persistently. Whatever charity you give, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[2:274] Those who give to charity night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:277] Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:280] If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew.

[3:92] You cannot attain righteousness until you give to charity from the possessions you love. Whatever you give to charity, GOD is fully aware thereof.

[3:134] who give to charity during the good times, as well as the bad times. They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable.

[4:38] They give money to charity only to show off, while disbelieving in GOD and the Last Day. If one's companion is the devil, that is the worst companion.

[4:77] Have you noted those who were told, "You do not have to fight; all you need to do is observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)," then, when fighting was decreed for them, they feared the people as much as they feared GOD, or even more? They said, "Our Lord, why did You force this fighting on us? If only You respite us for awhile!" Say, "The materials of this world are nil, while the Hereafter is far better for the righteous, and you never suffer the slightest injustice."

[4:162] As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the Contact Prayers (Salat), and givers of the obligatory charity (Zakat); they are believers in GOD and the Last Day. We grant these a great recompense.

[5:12] GOD had taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we raised among them twelve patriarchs. And GOD said, "I am with you, so long as you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and believe in My messengers and respect them, and continue to lend GOD a loan of righteousness. I will then remit your sins, and admit you into gardens with flowing streams. Anyone who disbelieves after this, has indeed strayed off the right path."

[5:45] And we decreed for them in it that: the life for the life, the eye for the eye, the nose for the nose, the ear for the ear, the tooth for the tooth, and an equivalent injury for any injury. If one forfeits what is due to him as a charity, it will atone for his sins. Those who do not rule in

accordance with GOD's revelations are the unjust.

[5:55] Your real allies are GOD and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they bow down.

[7:156-157] "And decree for us righteousness in this world, and in the Hereafter. We have repented to You." He said, "My retribution befalls whomever I will. But My mercy encompasses all things. However, I will specify it for those who (1) lead a righteous life, (2) give the obligatory charity (Zakat), (3) believe in our revelations, and "(4) follow the messenger, the gentile prophet (Muhammad), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones." 

[9:11] If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.

[9:18] The only people to frequent GOD's masjids are those who believe in GOD and the Last Day, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and do not fear except GOD. These will surely be among the guided ones.

[9:54] What prevented the acceptance of their spending is that they disbelieved in GOD and His messenger, and when they observed the Contact Prayers (Salat), they observed them lazily, and when they gave to charity, they did so grudgingly.

[9:71] The believing men and women are allies of one another. They advocate righteousness and forbid evil, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they obey GOD and His messenger. These will be showered by GOD's mercy. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[9:103] Take from their money a charity to purify them and sanctify them. And encourage them, for your encouragement reassures them. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

[14:31] Exhort My servants who believed to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and to give (to charity) from our provisions to them, secretly and publicly, before a day comes where there is neither trade, nor nepotism.

[16:75] GOD cites the example of a slave who is owned, and is totally powerless, compared to one whom we blessed with good provisions, from which he gives to charity secretly and publicly. Are they equal? Praise be to GOD, most of them do not know.

[16:90] GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.

[21:73] We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.

[22:35] They are the ones whose hearts tremble upon mentioning GOD, they steadfastly persevere during adversity, they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.

[22:41] They are those who, if we appointed them as rulers on earth, they would establish the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat), and would advocate righteousness and forbid evil. GOD is the ultimate ruler.

[22:78] You shall strive for the cause of GOD as you should strive for His cause. He has chosen you and has placed no hardship on you in practicing your religion - the religion of your father Abraham. He is the one who named you "Muslims" originally. Thus, the messenger shall serve as a witness among you, and you shall serve as witnesses among the people. Therefore, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and hold fast to Allah; He is your Lord, the best Lord and the best Supporter.

[24:37] People who are not distracted by business or trade from commemorating GOD; they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and they are conscious of the day when the minds and the eyes will be horrified.

[24:56] You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and obey the messenger, that you may attain mercy.

[30:38] Therefore, you shall give the relatives their rightful share (of charity), as well as the poor, and the traveling alien. This is better for those who sincerely seek GOD's pleasure; they are the winners.

[30:39] The usury that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at GOD. But if you give to charity, seeking GOD's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward manifold.

[41:7] "Who do not give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and with regard to the Hereafter, they are disbelievers."

[57:7] Believe in GOD and His messenger, and give from what He has bestowed upon you. Those among you who believe and give (to charity) have deserved a great recompense.

[64:16] Therefore, you shall reverence GOD as much as you can, and listen, and obey, and give (to charity) for your own good. Anyone who is protected from his own stinginess, these are the successful ones.

[98:5] All that was asked of them was to worship GOD, devoting the religion absolutely to Him alone, observe the contact prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory charity (Zakat). Such is the perfect religion.

[107:1-7] Do you know who really rejects the faith? That is the one who mistreats the orphans. And does not advocate the feeding of the poor. And woe to those who observe the contact prayers (Salat) - who are totally heedless of their prayers. They only show off. And they forbid charity. 

[108:1-2] We have blessed you with many a bounty. Therefore, you shall pray to your Lord (Salat), and give to charity. 

[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?"

[16:89] "We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything." 

[6:114]"......He has revealed to you this book fully detailed." 

Let me ask you now and Im sure your not going to answer it. Quran says any form of idols are a sin. An idol is a representation of something else, not limited to spiritual. In Ancient Greece, Egypt and Middle East they use to have idols for everything. The good, the bad, the weather, the sun, the moon, the financial, for food suppiles, rain EVERYTHING. 

WE agree that any of them are wrong. Quran says so correct.

YET HADITHS TELL ME I HAVE TO STONE THE DEVIL when I see the sacred mosque. Not Quran.

But isn't this idolating? You are considering something man made to be a representation of one of gods creations. Doesn't the koran state idolaters would be punished?

It says in the koran many times that the idols will be called up and asked if they were the ones who misled, and they will say no. This is an idol and throwing stones at it gives the human some feeling of accomplishment or a feeling of relief that they stoned shaytan. To be honest I will be going hajj this year but i refuse to stone shaytan. I recommend most people ask their religious leaders about this practice and hopefully we can stop the ridiculous practice

First of all, you copy and pasted all those verses and I didn't see the exact details of prayer and zakat or hajj anywhere, just the main principles. We go to the Ahlul Bayt to extrapolate these verses and bring the details. The Ahlul explains what invalidates the prayer, the Tashahhud etc and the Quran doesn't, because the Quran is meant to lays down the foundation and then the Quran ITSELF leads us towards the Ahlul Bayt who are the message of everything in Islam.

You haven't understood the philosophy of stoning the devil. I suggest you go read some Shia books about it online or open up a thread about it, since you simply don't get it.

I'm not considering something man made as the creation of gods creation. This is a ridiculous statement. I'm asking the Ahlul Bayt, through the "authentic" Hadith. Also, read and understand the concept of "polytheism", because you seem think everything is polytheism. God doesn't talk about cars in the Quran, but riding on animals. Omg I'm driving a car and the Quran doesn't state it! This is polytheistic :0 (I'm trying to prove your sheer naivety)

Allah has told you in the Quran ON EVERY PAGE ask for forgiveness. Thank Allah, ask to be rightly guided, Ask Allah to keep evil away. Are you serious Layla40 that you have never seen a pray in the Quran? Have you ever read the Quran. The reason I'm not posting is because its too long. I will answer all of these inshallah when i get back from work. But till then I'll ask you the same question Tell me every infintisemal detail where it says it in hadiths. Lets see how long yours is going to be. 

I'll be honest I can not answer the how many times around cause it is not stated in the Quran NOR DOES IT SAY YOU HAVE TO DO IT. 

See, the fact that you couldn't prove it in the Quran, you outrightly reject doing tawaf. Even when the Quran speaks about the tawaf! 

Ok Layla40. When were the hadiths written. Were they at the exact same time of the prophet? No. Were they at the same time as the Imams? No. They were after them. So your telling me MAN who always gets it wrong is going to explain to me about the purified ones. Give me a break. Listen to what your saying. Your addition onto PERFECTION (The Quran) has actually become an IMPERFECTION. Thats simple mathematics. If you have any that is perfection and can not be added anymore, adding something becomes an imperfection.

Please go back and answer ALL my questions from my posts. This is a conversation where I can also ask questions, not just a one way street

Waiting for your response Layla40 ^^ 

Were hadiths written at the time of the Prophet and Imams? Yes! They were! Go read history! That's why Hadiths have such a thing called a "narrative chain".

Seriously, man, if you claim that the Imams preached "just Quran" what do you mean by this? What, did they just hand out qurans and leave the interpretation to them? Or did they explain? The answer is quite clear. 

I've answered you the best I possibly could and if, after this, you still don't get it, I see no point in arguing any further. But please respond.

Anyway, I rather speak with you through facebook or email, that would be good, easier.

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Salam,

Salaam Aleikum,

Agree or Disagree, i have said all what is necessary to be said in minimal level.

Okay brother, thank you for your thoughts :)

wsalam.

Salam,

I said I don't know the interpretation - and that you will have to find the interpretations in the Books. If I refer to the Books too, I will find them there as well. So, the Prophet did his job magnificently, as well as appointing by Allah's command successors who will interpret the Qur'an for us as perfectly as it was revealed.

Okay, please could you find for me the exact meanings of the letters at the start of the surah. Please ask your scholars if possible, I'm very keen to know. If a Divine authority came to interpret quran, this shouldn't be a problem. And it shouldn't be buried away from the layman, otherwise what's the point?

As for the translation of that verse: the Arabic is the same, but it all depends on where you pause/where the sentence ends - in one reading (which is my reading - and which is Grammatically correct):

3/7 It is He who has sent down to you the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation and no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those in firmly grounded in knowledge (Raasikhun) - they [meaning the Raasikhun] say, "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And not will take heed except those of understanding.

So the pause is after Raasikhuna fi-l-'ilm.

It depends on how you read the Arabic.

Yea, I see your point. Okay, I can accept your translation. In fact I think the grammar in yours (your 2nd attempt, not the first) might be the better one. I'll have to ponder on this.

What is interesting is that your Qur'anist position cannot even tell us how to read the Arabic Qur'an.

The quranist position cannot "tell" you anything, the quran "tells" you what you need. The quranist position is to study the quran with care as instructed by quran. What is interesting about the traditionalist position is that you use outside sources to understand quran despite quran prohibiting the use of other hadith.

Do you follow the correct method? Do you wipe your feet? Or do you wash your feet? Why? Why then do other Muslims interpret the verse differently and do the opposite?

This is due to people's different understandings. There is nothing wrong with this, 17/84. What is wrong is if you're using hadith outside quran as authoritative to come to an understanding. The correct understanding will come through cross-referencing from within quran.

Aren't you afraid that your opinions are changing the Word of Allah?

Yes. This is why I never claim to be an authority and pray Allah guides me to the correct understanding.

Just because the women of Egypt cut their hands in one manner, you think that thieves should have their hands cut in the same manner? That is a very bad argument. Very illogical.

It is logical because it is exactly the same phrase. The reason you interpret them differently is because of hadith, nothing to do with the message of quran.

And anyhow, were you in Egypt to see how the women cut their hands? Did they cut their forearms, or their palms, or the back of their hands, or the fingers?

Did they sever their hands? If they did not, why do you interpret 5/38 as severing? Why do you not make the nature of the 'cutting' the same? The answer is clear, it is because of the extra-quranic authorities you use.

Or you claim that "yad" is used metaphorically. But where did you get this from? Why are you fabricating intentions, then attributing them to Allah? Where does Allah say that the "yad" is metaphoric? Even the context lends itself to literal understanding.

I could go through the methodology of how I come to arrive at a conclusion but it is completely alien to most muslims so would be a waste of our time. What I do is cross-reference words in quran to arrive at a consistent meaning. When I say it is metaphorical it is because there are many instances in quran where the word 'cut' cannot be understood literally. 'Cutting the path' is used in quran but no one understands this as literally using a sword to cut a line in a path on the floor. The phrase in 5/38 is exactly the same as 12/31, so it is logical to arrive at a consistent meaning for both. Since you didn't directly answer my question, I can assume you agree that in 12/31 the niswatun did not sever their own hands off. They must have either cut their hands in a different way or it is a metaphorical phrase. Either way, 5/38 creates an inconsistency if you choose to make it 'sever their hands'. And this is typical of hadith use. When you refuse to let the quran stand on its own feet, you create inconsistencies. And Allah says there is no conradiction in His Book.

You admit you don't have authority and you admit that you don't absolutely know for certain - and that you may never know, since you could always be wrong. Therefore, here is what Allah says:

æóãóÇ áóåõãú Èöåö ãöäú Úöáúãò Åöäú íóÊøóÈöÚõæäó ÅöáøóÇ ÇáÙøóäøó æóÅöäøó ÇáÙøóäøó áóÇ íõÛúäöí ãöäó ÇáúÍóÞøö ÔóíúÆðÇ

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth.

Are you saying quran is conjecture? Because I follow quran. I study quran until Allah reveals some knowledge from it. In what sense is that conjecture?

According to 3:7, Muhkamaat are clear and the Mutashaabihaat are not. This is what the Book states clearly.

Okay, then how do you reconcile 3/7 with 10/15, 12/111, 30/28, 41/3? According to you, there is a contradiction in quran, because Allah says in one verse quran has unclear verses yet in others claims the entire Book is clear.

You and I are proof of this. We are both looking at just the Qur'an and coming with different approaches.

17/84, 20/114

You say "yad" is metaphorical and I say it is not. So, one of us is not carrying out the law of God properly. One of us is acting according to our own opinion, not on the Command of Allah. One of us is Unjust.

I would argue that the one who is unjust is the one who violates the following verses to understand quran: 45/6, 4/82. Are you using hadith? Are you studying quran carefully?

Now - you cannot guess whether "hand" is metaphorical or literal - you cannot guess whether this "cutting hand" is necessarily related to that "cutting hand", just as you cannot guess whether this "hand" is necessarily related to the "hand" in the Ablution verse.

There is no guessing, only study. If you study as per commanded by Allah in 4/82 you will reach a consistent and coherent conclusion, if Allah wills.

Conjecture and opinion are Haram, per Qur'anic injunction.

The quran is not conjecture, it is clear. Our ability to understand differs.

There is need for certain knowledge of authoritative value, not based on my or your opinion, but somehow we need someone who is the mouthpiece of God and can tell us whether this is metaphorical and literal, etc.

Yet there is no evidence from quran that Allah has sanctioned such people. He commands you to study quran.

6/114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Yet the claim of the traditionalist is that certain men have Divine authority to judge the Book, despite Allah claiming it is sufficiently detailed.

In your Qur'anist view, how did Allah (swt) ensure that the Muslims do not follow their own opinionated conjectural interpretations of the Qur'an, and follow the intended interpretation of the Qur'an?

He ensured no such thing. 6/116. Allah ensured the veracity of quran, not your ability to understand. You are commanded to study and He will guide you if He wills.

How did Allah (swt) ensure that the correct laws are derived from a Book which history and the facts of history tell us causes so many differences - amongst People of Qur'an and Sunnah, and the People of Qur'an-alone. ?

I think the basic theme of your position is that since we all read the Book differently, the quran fails to be a guidance until someone with Divine authority comes and gives us the "correct" interpretation, thus restoring the quran as a guide for mankind.

Aside from the fact that there is no quranic evidence for a so-called Divine interpretor, the quran also does not suggest a monolithic reading of the Book.

17:84 Say, "Each works according to his manner, but your Lord is most knowing of who is best guided in way."

and

20/114 So high is Allah , the Sovereign, the Truth. And do not hasten with the Qur'an before its revelation is completed to you, and say, "My Lord, increase me in knowledge."

and

39/18 Those who listen to what is said, and they follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

If the above verses are true, then how can there be one monolithic reading? 39/18 implies there are variant readings, and we are told to follow that which is the best of it.

The major question is why God bothered to send a Book that only a handful of people could ever understand? The claim of the traditionalist (as expounded by yourself) is that the Book isn't clear so we need an authorised interpretation. The fact that these 'authorities' are not clearly sanctioned by quran is something of an irony. Sunnis and shi'ites have a huge corpus of hadith that they refer to to explain the Book. The irony deepens, as the very texts that are meant to explain the Book are so complex that the layman can't understand it. So the layman must submit to a scholar who must then make sense of the explanation of the explanation.

wsalam

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

This is to sister Layla - and anyone else who may care:

Ok Layla40. When were the hadiths written. Were they at the exact same time of the prophet? No. Were they at the same time as the Imams? No. They were after them.

Were hadiths written at the time of the Prophet and Imams? Yes! They were! Go read history! That's why Hadiths have such a thing called a "narrative chain".

Please read post #3 of this same thread, which was my first post.

We are dealing with people who have no idea of Hadith except hearsay, mostly based on Sunni critique of their Hadith books - which was indeed written after the Prophet.

First they have to steep themselves into History before making sweeping conclusions and general condemnations of pure Islamic sources.

Seriously, man, if you claim that the Imams preached "just Quran" what do you mean by this? What, did they just hand out qurans and leave the interpretation to them? Or did they explain? The answer is quite clear. 

If he answers this by saying, "the Imams explained the verses", then we know that the Qur'an required explanation from the infallible mouthpieces of Allah.

If he answers this by saying, "the Imams just repeated the verses of the Qur'an", then what did they teach? They were redundant. They could just point to the Qur'an and say, "read it for yourselves, interpret it for yourselves, explain it for yourselves. There is nothing for us to teach you. Everything is there. Leave us alone."

---------------------

Anyway, I am quitting this fruitless discussion with people who carve their own opinions by interpreting the Qur'an through their own opinions - they follow nothing but conjecture:

æóãóÇ áóåõãú Èöåö ãöäú Úöáúãò Åöäú íóÊøóÈöÚõæäó ÅöáøóÇ ÇáÙøóäøó æóÅöäøó ÇáÙøóäøó áóÇ íõÛúäöí ãöäó ÇáúÍóÞøö ÔóíúÆðÇ

But they have no knowledge therein. They follow nothing but conjecture; and conjecture avails nothing against Truth.

(wasalam)

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This is probably one of the most ridiculous 3 page segments I've ever come across on Shiachat.

We have people claiming that the Quran was taught to us over a number of years by the prophets/imams etc, yet we then completely ignore the manner of the teaching.

It makes the entire concept of Islamic teaching a complete waste of time, when all you need is some knowledge of the Arabic language.

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Guest Jebreil

Salam,

wsalam

(bismillah)

(salam)

This will probably be amongst my last (if not the last) post on this thread. You will have to excuse me after this.

-------------

Unfortunately, how you deduce your conclusions from the Qur'an is based on pure opinion - I wonder if you added the verse numbers in this "alien methodology" or some other device.

Also, you must stop thinking that the Arabic word "Hadith" means statements which later were termed "Hadith". In fact, believing in any scientific statement is believing in a scientific Hadith. Anyhow...

-----------

1. Yes, scholars are needed:

فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن کُل‌ِّ فِرْقَة‌ٍ مِّنْهُم‌ْ طَـآغ‌فَة‌ٌ لِّیَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِی الدِّین‌؛

(9:122)

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا التَّوْراةَ فيها هُدىً وَ نُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذينَ أَسْلَمُوا لِلَّذينَ هادُوا وَ الرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَ الْأَحْبارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُوا مِنْ كِتابِ اللَّهِ وَ كانُوا عَلَيْهِ شُهَداءَ فَلا تَخْشَوُا النَّاسَ وَ اخْشَوْنِ وَ لا تَشْتَرُوا بِآياتي‏ ثَمَناً قَليلاً وَ مَنْ لَمْ يَحْكُمْ بِما أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولئِكَ هُمُ الْكافِرُونَ

(5:44)

------------------------------------

2. Non-Monolithic reading is not what Allah intended - as it will not establish Truth, but various competing Opinions without a Final True Verdict

Clearly you think that everyone can derive through a methodology alien to most Muslims (and probably alien to Islam) and reach different conclusions without knowing who is right and who is wrong, with no one to give the true interpretation. Now, I leave you with a Hadith - from the first Muslim male after the Prophet, his son-in-law, his cousin, and someone who was called "the Gate of the City of Knowledge" and of the "same light" as the Prophet:

When a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur'an) is one (and the same). Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah

sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

. . . We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur'an) . . . (Qur'an, 6:38) And says that one part of the Qur'an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says: . . . And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (Qur'an, 4 :82) Certainly the outside of the Qur'an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its intricacies cannot be cleared except through itself.

Here you have the solution to your problem: The Qur'an is clear, yet all Muslims - including the Qur'anists - all derive different, and often opposite verdicts. Let us imagine that none of us are certain as to which interpretation is correct. I derive from the Qur'an the need for Hadith, and you derive from the Qur'an the prohibition of Hadith. I derive from the Qur'an the literal severing of the hand for theft, and you derive from the Qur'an the metaphoric sense of the verse, and on and on and on.

Where is the Guidance? How do we know who is Guided? You saying that Allah will guide is fine, but how do we know which verdict is the correct one? How do we know which person Allah has guided?

The truth is:

We can never know, unless Allah has identified clearly a people who are on the right, and who interpret correctly.

-----------

3. Your reasoning is speculation, conjecture, opinion - and thus Haram

It is logical because it is exactly the same phrase.

Same phrase - but a different context . I thought you would take this into consideration. The same words can take 180 degrees turns in different contexts.

I wonder how you will punish a thief, metaphorically .

Is this metaphor induced by the liberal 21st century moderate Muslim inclination? Or is it just the opinion of one non-knowledgeable, non-authoritative, speculating individual, who thinks he is on the right - based on his own opinion of what the Qur'an says, disregarding the many different opinions which were upheld by the very companions of the Prophet and the very family of the Prophet - and thinks that he is right and they have always been wrong and unjust and transgressors?

Did they sever their hands? If they did not, why do you interpret 5/38 as severing? Why do you not make the nature of the 'cutting' the same? The answer is clear, it is because of the extra-quranic authorities you use.

Because it is clear. I do not take metaphorically what Allah has not indicated as metaphoric. Why should I pretend that Allah was a 21st century Western liberal who abhorred resolute punishments? It also makes sense in the context, since it would be a visible punishment. Additionally, historically, there is evidence that the Prophet and his companions severed hands literally.

For your claim, there is no Qur'anic, nor historic, nor rational evidence - it is pure conjecture - based on juxtaposing two verses which you think are related because they both talk of "severing hands" - albeit in contexts very different. One is a Legal issue, and one is a Historic issue. Imagine going to court, and start using Historical terminology as a Legal defence!

To anyone with clear vision, the judgement is clear: you are following your own conjectural speculations, fed by your socio-psychological background, of how the Qur'an ought to be - rather than what it actually is.

--------

4. Knowledge of the Letters

As I said, you must excuse me. This discussion has revealed its barrenness to me. As for the knowledge of the letters, one was posted by the sister (Layla). I myself am not in a position to meet with a scholar (unfortunately) and I do not have the necessary books with me. You must ask someone else here, or contact a scholar yourself.

There is no problem that the scholars have the knowledge and a layman does not. Do we expect everyone to know everything from day one? Laymen are learning too - however, they learn while living a different life to the scholars, who are devoted to religious studies, per Qur'anic injunction. Insha'Allah, in a few years perhaps, I will be able to answer this question. Until then, ask those who know.

------------

5. Final Word

قُلْ هَلْ نُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِالْأَخْسَرِينَ أَعْمَالًا

Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?.

الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا

"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works."

Why do you base the Word of God by what you Think? when what you Think should be based on the Word of God.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil
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(bismillah)

(salam)

This will probably be amongst my last (if not the last) post on this thread. You will have to excuse me after this.

-------------

Unfortunately, how you deduce your conclusions from the Qur'an is based on pure opinion - I wonder if you added the verse numbers in this "alien methodology" or some other device.

Also, you must stop thinking that the Arabic word "Hadith" means statements which later were termed "Hadith". In fact, believing in any scientific statement is believing in a scientific Hadith. Anyhow...

-----------

1. Yes, scholars are needed:

ÝóáóæúáÇó äóÝóÑó ãöä ˜õáöø ÝöÑúÞóÉò ãöøäúåõãú ØóÜÂÛÝóÉñ áöøíóÊóÝóÞóøåõæÇú Ýöí ÇáÏöøíäº

(9:122)

ÅöäóøÇ ÃóäúÒóáúäóÇ ÇáÊóøæúÑÇÉó ÝíåÇ åõÏìð æó äõæÑñ íóÍúßõãõ ÈöåóÇ ÇáäóøÈöíõøæäó ÇáóøÐíäó ÃóÓúáóãõæÇ áöáóøÐíäó åÇÏõæÇ æó ÇáÑóøÈóøÇäöíõøæäó æó ÇáúÃóÍúÈÇÑõ ÈöãóÇ ÇÓúÊõÍúÝöÙõæÇ ãöäú ßöÊÇÈö Çááóøåö æó ßÇäõæÇ Úóáóíúåö ÔõåóÏÇÁó ÝóáÇ ÊóÎúÔóæõÇ ÇáäóøÇÓó æó ÇÎúÔóæúäö æó áÇ ÊóÔúÊóÑõæÇ ÈöÂíÇÊíþ ËóãóäÇð ÞóáíáÇð æó ãóäú áóãú íóÍúßõãú ÈöãÇ ÃóäúÒóáó Çááóøåõ ÝóÃõæáÆößó åõãõ ÇáúßÇÝöÑõæäó

(5:44)

------------------------------------

2. Non-Monolithic reading is not what Allah intended - as it will not establish Truth, but various competing Opinions without a Final True Verdict

Clearly you think that everyone can derive through a methodology alien to most Muslims (and probably alien to Islam) and reach different conclusions without knowing who is right and who is wrong, with no one to give the true interpretation. Now, I leave you with a Hadith - from the first Muslim male after the Prophet, his son-in-law, his cousin, and someone who was called "the Gate of the City of Knowledge" and of the "same light" as the Prophet:

When a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur'an) is one (and the same). Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah

sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

. . . We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur'an) . . . (Qur'an, 6:38) And says that one part of the Qur'an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says: . . . And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (Qur'an, 4 :82) Certainly the outside of the Qur'an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its intricacies cannot be cleared except through itself.

Here you have the solution to your problem: The Qur'an is clear, yet all Muslims - including the Qur'anists - all derive different, and often opposite verdicts. Let us imagine that none of us are certain as to which interpretation is correct. I derive from the Qur'an the need for Hadith, and you derive from the Qur'an the prohibition of Hadith. I derive from the Qur'an the literal severing of the hand for theft, and you derive from the Qur'an the metaphoric sense of the verse, and on and on and on.

Where is the Guidance? How do we know who is Guided? You saying that Allah will guide is fine, but how do we know which verdict is the correct one? How do we know which person Allah has guided?

The truth is:

We can never know, unless Allah has identified clearly a people who are on the right, and who interpret correctly.

-----------

3. Your reasoning is speculation, conjecture, opinion - and thus Haram

Same phrase - but a different context . I thought you would take this into consideration. The same words can take 180 degrees turns in different contexts.

I wonder how you will punish a thief, metaphorically .

Is this metaphor induced by the liberal 21st century moderate Muslim inclination? Or is it just the opinion of one non-knowledgeable, non-authoritative, speculating individual, who thinks he is on the right - based on his own opinion of what the Qur'an says, disregarding the many different opinions which were upheld by the very companions of the Prophet and the very family of the Prophet - and thinks that he is right and they have always been wrong and unjust and transgressors?

Because it is clear. I do not take metaphorically what Allah has not indicated as metaphoric. Why should I pretend that Allah was a 21st century Western liberal who abhorred resolute punishments? It also makes sense in the context, since it would be a visible punishment. Additionally, historically, there is evidence that the Prophet and his companions severed hands literally.

For your claim, there is no Qur'anic, nor historic, nor rational evidence - it is pure conjecture - based on juxtaposing two verses which you think are related because they both talk of "severing hands" - albeit in contexts very different. One is a Legal issue, and one is a Historic issue. Imagine going to court, and start using Historical terminology as a Legal defence!

To anyone with clear vision, the judgement is clear: you are following your own conjectural speculations, fed by your socio-psychological background, of how the Qur'an ought to be - rather than what it actually is.

--------

4. Knowledge of the Letters

As I said, you must excuse me. This discussion has revealed its barrenness to me. As for the knowledge of the letters, one was posted by the sister (Layla). I myself am not in a position to meet with a scholar (unfortunately) and I do not have the necessary books with me. You must ask someone else here, or contact a scholar yourself.

There is no problem that the scholars have the knowledge and a layman does not. Do we expect everyone to know everything from day one? Laymen are learning too - however, they learn while living a different life to the scholars, who are devoted to religious studies, per Qur'anic injunction. Insha'Allah, in a few years perhaps, I will be able to answer this question. Until then, ask those who know.

------------

5. Final Word

Þõáú åóáú äõäóÈöøÆõßõãú ÈöÇáúÃóÎúÓóÑöíäó ÃóÚúãóÇáðÇ

Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?.

ÇáóøÐöíäó Öóáóø ÓóÚúíõåõãú Ýöí ÇáúÍóíóÇÉö ÇáÏõøäúíóÇ æóåõãú íóÍúÓóÈõæäó Ãóäóøåõãú íõÍúÓöäõæäó ÕõäúÚðÇ

"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works."

Why do you base the Word of God by what you Think? when what you Think should be based on the Word of God.

(wasalam)

Very good post Jebreil, this should be enough to destroy the Quranist Ideology

My last post too..

Only the prophets and the pious divines who had submitted to Allah, were entrusted with the responsibility of giving judgements according to the Tawrat. The people had no right to use their discretion. Likewise the Quran was not abandoned to the eccentric and unreliable evaluation of common people as wrongly concluded by a group of the Holy Prophet's companions who believed in hasbuna kitabullah (sufficient for us is the book of Allah). On the contrary the Holy Prophet joined his Ahl ul Bayt with the Quran as the infallible guardians of its integrity, meanings and application (hadith al thaqalayn). There is no doubt about its genuineness. It has been kept safe from corruption. Allah, the Holy Prophet and his Ahl Bayt have preserved its originality for the guidance of mankind till the end of the world

W salam

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(salam)

Dear Quranists.... I will not use any Quranic verses or hadith in order to refute what you are saying (as many has already tried) about one needing only the Quran to understand everything, and that the person should extract the rules from the Quran by himself and not by using ahadith that come from the Purified Ones in order TO UNDERSTAND the Quran and not to COMPLETE it (For we all agree that the Quran is complete and the Quran itself has mentiond that it is complete)... Very good...

This a question for you to ask yourself, please just free your mind of any hard-headed attitude, and just try to ask yourself this question, and think with your brain (reason), which is the most magnificent tool that God has gifted us with....

When you are in school, you are given these books that had information in them, all types of different subjects... Ask yourself, if there was to be no teacher in order to make you UNDERSTAND this information, what would be the result of YOU trying to understand this information???

The List of some results:

1.You will not understand a thing.

2.You will understand some information (because of some knowledge you gained in life), but it will be a distorted understanding and not the correct understanding (for it might be right or wrong).

3.You will Understand Everything (This is quiet impossible, only in the case were God will give you this knowledge free of charge<--- Not an option, FOR MAJORITY).

If you study these results, you will see that result 1 and 2 would be the most logical results, and result 3 we shall put aside...

Lets apply this concept to the Quran... You will have to be in one of these three categories if you dont have a teacher...

If you are in category 1, that would mean you have not found the truth since you cant even understand this knowledge....

If you are in category 2, that would mean you may have found the truth or may not have found the truth, still risky (personally, I wouldn't want to risk my eternal life for a probability).

If you are in category 3, that would mean your either a Messenger, a Prophet, or a Wali of Allah (i dont know about you, but i am certainly not in this category)...

So who is this teacher that can teach us the truth, that is found in this Holy Book full of information??? That would be Mohammad (pbuh), and then Ali and his progeny afterwards...

When using logic and reason we get to this conclusion... I might have said i am not going to use the quran, but i just want to point out the verse that proves this logical reasoning correct, when Allah (swt) says:

"And We revealed to you (Meaning The Prophet) the message (Meaning The Quran) that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought." 16:44

I would just like to say, that i dont think anyone with a humble mind, and just a bit of logic, would choose to be in category 1 or 2... So i ask of you ask of the dear muslim brothers and sisters who call themselves Quranists (although the true Quranists are the prophet and his Household) to PLEASE re-think about what choice you are making, and think about the major consequence that may be a result of this HUGE decision you are making...

May Allah(swt) guide us onto his right path, and may he forgive us and you...

(salam)

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(bismillah)

Salaamun Alaikum Wa rahmatulillahi wa Barakatuh

I am new to ShiaChat and this is among my first posts.

What strikes me most about this entire discussion is that it is even being had.

These arguments are not new, those who advocate Quran only-The Quranists.....are only recycled versions of those who attempted to deny the position and authority of the Ahlul Bayt during the Holy Prophets (pbuh) last illness.....Does anyone remember the phrase..."Sufficient is the book of Allahسبحانه وتعالى?" If not read it for yourself .....

"When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them. "

Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573

.......Remember who said it.......ENOUGH SAID.

wa Salaam

Edited by 313Sajjaad
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Salam,

(salam)

So who is this teacher that can teach us the truth, that is found in this Holy Book full of information???

55/2 He taught the Quran.

(bismillah)

Salaamun Alaikum Wa rahmatulillahi wa Barakatuh

I am new to ShiaChat and this is among my first posts.

What strikes me most about this entire discussion is that it is even being had.

These arguments are not new, those who advocate Quran only-The Quranists.....are only recycled versions of those who attempted to deny the position and authority of the Ahlul Bayt during the Holy Prophets (pbuh) last illness.....Does anyone remember the phrase..."Sufficient is the book of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?" If not read it for yourself .....

.......Remember who said it.......ENOUGH SAID.

wa Salaam

6/114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

The discussion is being had because it is very relevant to our times. In my opinion, you will see more of these discussions in the coming years and thus will be difficult to dismiss. The internet has changed everything.

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Guest Jebreil

Salam,

55/2 He taught the Quran.

6/114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

The discussion is being had because it is very relevant to our times. In my opinion, you will see more of these discussions in the coming years and thus will be difficult to dismiss. The internet has changed everything.

(bismillah)

(salam)

These discussions will always remain marginal. The figures of the Prophet and the Imams, their lives and words, are too mystical, spiritual and powerful, like a perfect commentary opening and applying the verses of the perfect Qur'an. People will love the Qur'an when they see the miracle of the Qur'an in the beautiful lives of these Godly figures. These figures will always be the door the temple of the Qur'an, which faces towards God.

"Give charity, even if it is a smile."

This sentence of the Prophet opens up the Qur'anic call to charity, and turns it into a fragrant blooming rose garden - charity, even if it is a smile.

Yes - this Prophet is from God. Because he has the scent of God, and his tongue is sweet.

Human beings have had enough of conjecture and opinion, and people debating and deriving wild conclusions from the verses, all because of their desires - Human beings want certainty, and the living 12th Imam is the certainty, who will come when the people are prepared to accommodate him and help him, and make him their king.

(wasalam)

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