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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Darwinism Really Compatible With Islam?

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  • Veteran Member

(bismillah) (salam)

Here when I say Darwinism I mean the Neo-Darwinian synthesis.

Many of us say that Islam does not have an opinion on Darwinism and it does not generally oppose the theory of evolution expect that prophet Adam [a] and his wife [a] were created and did not evolve. We would say that Darwinism and other alternative theories of evolution are purely scientific theories and our religion is not threatened by them.

However if the Darwinian mechanism of evolution is not not unislamic on it's own, are it's implications not unislamic? If Darwinian evolution is possible then it is possible that humans descending from the first two [a] have undergone some evolution and that belief may have racist implications, since it could be argued that some humans are much more superior to others: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html

The other problem with Darwinsism would be it's implications on psychology: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v23/i4/rape.asp

rape might be an adaptation. There might have been selection favouring males who raped under some circumstances in the past. And therefore there might be some aspects of male brains designed specifically to rape under some conditions.

With this in mind, should we be much more careful before saying things like: "Islam is not against Darwinism"?

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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  • Veteran Member

We could say that Adam and Eve (as) were the first of their kind, that perhaps the other creatures evolved but they did not.

Brother, I did imply that ^. I am talking about evolution taking place after Adam and Hawa [a] were created. If other creatures can evolve using Neo-Darwinian mechanisms (reproduction, mutation, selection etc) then why not humans after they were placed on the Earth?

Did Allah put something into the DNA of Humans to stop them evolving (since evolution could bring about some quite nasty characteristics)?

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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Brother, I did imply that ^ I am talking about evolution taking place after Adam and Hawa [a] were created.

Well, evidently, whether or not evolution is true, rape is not an evolutionary trait because most people dont do it.

I guess you could argue why that is the case (that we dont rape) to show why evolution is absurd.

Did Allah put something into the DNA of Humans to stop them evolving (since evolution could bring about some quite nasty characteristics)?

Or maybe it hasnt? Look at how the world is changing, how some horrific actions like bestiality are become "normal".

Edited by Incognito
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Well, evidently, whether or not evolution is true, rape is not an evolutionary trait because most people dont do it.

I guess you could argue why that is the case (that we dont rape) to show why evolution is absurd.

According to evolutionary theories, not everyone has to have the same genetic traits! The existence of differing genetic traits is consistent with Darwinism.

Or maybe it hasnt? Look at how the world is changing, how some horrific actions like bestiality are become "normal".

That is not consistent with Islam. Allah would not put such horrid traits into the DNA of so many humans.

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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According to evolutionary theories, not everyone has to have the same genetic traits! The existence of differing genetic traits is consistent with Darwinism.

That is not consistent with Islam. Allah would not put such horrid traits into the DNA of so many humans.

What about those who are born with homosexual tendencies?

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That isnt a very convincing reply.

What if some people are actually born gay? What about people being born into the wrong gender?

Assuming that they do exist, then they would be exceptions to the norm (and Allah will judge them with full justice). Islam teaches us that humans in general have not been created with evil traits.

Edited by Muhammed Ali
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We have evolved - hence why depending on the climate and situation of people in an area over a long period of time - we find different characteristics

Compare say, the Inuit of Canada, to someone from Central Africa.

The Inuit have evolved as a shorter bulkier people , to accommodate the cold. While many in Africa have a certain blood condition that makes them more prone to blood problems but less prone to malaria which is common in the area.

Evolution does happen.

Fruit flies - go through generations quite quickly. its been tested, put them in extreme cold conditions. Those who survive will mate until we have a new kind of fruit fly that can survive in the cold but cannot survive in the heat.

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We have evolved - hence why depending on the climate and situation of people in an area over a long period of time - we find different characteristics

Compare say, the Inuit of Canada, to someone from Central Africa.

The Inuit have evolved as a shorter bulkier people , to accommodate the cold. While many in Africa have a certain blood condition that makes them more prone to blood problems but less prone to malaria which is common in the area.

Evolution does happen.

Fruit flies - go through generations quite quickly. its been tested, put them in extreme cold conditions. Those who survive will mate until we have a new kind of fruit fly that can survive in the cold but cannot survive in the heat.

Why don't you stick to the subject? We can have another thread about the truth of human evolution.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

There are too many actual schools, and even more potential schools of Darwinism - there are those which seem compatible. There are those which are not. Social darwinism, psychological darwinism and such are very pseudo-scientific - they appear very speculative.

Yet, I have no problem with Evolution as a whole - it is rationally justified, empirically justified, and more important than all, religiously justified that Allah (swt) created things in stages, developing them, bringing new generations, and new creations out of previous ones, all from a singularity - He who created the Heavens and the Earth and all in them from a Unitary Substance, branching this Singularity into different creatures, surely could do similar things with the organisms.

On the other hand, I prefer to be agnostic on this issue - while I think you can interpret Adam (as) 's story in an evolutionary-friendly way, it may not be the truth - however, on the evidence, it probably is.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil
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We have evolved - hence why depending on the climate and situation of people in an area over a long period of time - we find different characteristics

Compare say, the Inuit of Canada, to someone from Central Africa.

The Inuit have evolved as a shorter bulkier people , to accommodate the cold. While many in Africa have a certain blood condition that makes them more prone to blood problems but less prone to malaria which is common in the area.

Evolution does happen.

Fruit flies - go through generations quite quickly. its been tested, put them in extreme cold conditions. Those who survive will mate until we have a new kind of fruit fly that can survive in the cold but cannot survive in the heat.

Thats not evolution that is adapting. Allah has created us in such a way that we adapt. Ie The Imam was doing aid work in Afghanistan, He goes in the cold which was way below 0, they were children who were bear foot and the skin on their feet was thick it was like leather.

Our bodies are amazing they dont evlove they adapt. Ie a Ice user, the natural dopamine in the brain shuts down, A steroid user, the natural test production shuts down, Someone who loses a eye their other senses intesify, The Ghanjis river those Hindus who drink from it dont cop any diesese even though its the most poluted water in the world. Get my Jist

Edited by asharp
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whats the difference between evolution and adaptation in this sense? Our bodies change physically based off of our environment and being exposed to it for an extremely long time

evolution occurs when the change goes to the point where the adaptations make the result a new species (one that cannot breed with the species it was originally)

adaptation is en lieu with evolution.

Look at the adaptations of wolves after being domesticated - in which they eventually became a different species, dog

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No worries brother, wish you the best!

^_^

Thank you. May Allah bless you :)

psychological darwinism and such are very pseudo-scientific - they appear very speculative.

Isn't Psychological Darwinian the same as Evolutionary Psychology? Why is it pseudo scientific, it seems very much mainstream science? If evolution did occur then isn't it very likely that it had an affect on our psychology?

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We could say that Adam and Eve (as) were the first of their kind, that perhaps the other creatures evolved but they did not.

Evolution, as a whole, is rather stupid.

Did God create a few Adams and Eve's at the same time on Earth?. A black Adam and Eve, and a white Adam and Eve and another pair with Japanese like features and other with Mongol like features, etc....

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(bismillah)

(salam)

There are too many actual schools, and even more potential schools of Darwinism - there are those which seem compatible. There are those which are not. Social darwinism, psychological darwinism and such are very pseudo-scientific - they appear very speculative.

Yet, I have no problem with Evolution as a whole - it is rationally justified, empirically justified, and more important than all, religiously justified that Allah (swt) created things in stages, developing them, bringing new generations, and new creations out of previous ones, all from a singularity - He who created the Heavens and the Earth and all in them from a Unitary Substance, branching this Singularity into different creatures, surely could do similar things with the organisms.

On the other hand, I prefer to be agnostic on this issue - while I think you can interpret Adam (as) 's story in an evolutionary-friendly way, it may not be the truth - however, on the evidence, it probably is.

(wasalam)

Or, just maybe:

Alternative 1: "Adam" & "Eve" just like software installed into a human "hardware" (physical body), which undergone evolution. But of course, the consequence is they both had parents

Alternative 2: They were uniquely created & placed on earth. In short, materialized out of nowhere.

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Evolution is an important branch of science. Islam is a religion, not a science. Christianity is a religion, not a science. Science and religions can coexist. Religions contain rituals and parables and myths.

“Myths are about the human struggle to deal with the great passages of time and life—birth, death, marriage, the transitions from childhood to adulthood to old age. They meet a need in the psychological or spiritual nature of humans that has absolutely nothing to do with science. To try to turn a myth into a science, or a science into a myth, is an insult to myths, an insult to religion, and an insult to science.”—Michael Shermer

Edited by mattbrowne
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Did God create a few Adams and Eve's at the same time on Earth?. A black Adam and Eve, and a white Adam and Eve and another pair with Japanese like features and other with Mongol like features, etc....

Maybe He had created different races prior to Adam and Eve, or that they adapted to their places.

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A black Adam and Eve, and a white Adam and Eve and another pair with Japanese like features and other with Mongol like features, etc....

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/1.htm

Imam Ali (as) on the creation of Adam (as): "Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness."

Some interesting points open to interpretation from the above Hadith...

"mixture of clays of different colours" = yellow sand (asian), red sand (indian), white sand (anglo), black sand (african) ?

"water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey" = Eukaryote?

"He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments." = Acanthostega?

"it took the pattern of a human being" = Homo-X ?

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http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/1.htm

Imam Ali (as) on the creation of Adam (as): "Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness."

Some interesting points open to interpretation from the above Hadith...

"mixture of clays of different colours" = yellow sand (asian), red sand (indian), white sand (anglo), black sand (african) ?

"water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey" = Eukaryote?

"He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments." = Acanthostega?

"it took the pattern of a human being" = Homo-X ?

A human being, i.e Adam, as opposed to human beings.

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A human being, i.e Adam, as opposed to human beings.

The various theories of evolution themselves don't state that there were mutations of multiple fish over large geographical areas that led to multiple variants of humans. Fish on one side of gondwana and another one on the other side of gondwana didn't both evolve by the same accidental gene mutation, then one swam over to the other side gondwana and said "hi mate wanna mate :wub:" to create a monkey. So don't know where you got human beings from, coz it's certainly not in modern scientific teachings, nor in what was pasted in the previous post.

Could be that being a mixture of these different clays means being a mixture of the different races in the sense that he had characteristics / genes from all of them.

Yup bro, been saying that's a possibility for a good 10 years (ignore the childish remarks lol)

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  • Veteran Member

The various theories of evolution themselves don't state that there were mutations of multiple fish over large geographical areas that led to multiple variants of humans. Fish on one side of gondwana and another one on the other side of gondwana didn't both evolve by the same accidental gene mutation, then one swam over to the other side gondwana and said "hi mate wanna mate :wub:" to create a monkey. So don't know where you got human beings from, coz it's certainly not in modern scientific teachings, nor in what was pasted in the previous post.

I know this does not add to the evolution debate...

In antiquity (long before the Bible)it was a widely held belief that Gods had made Humans from mud.

Adam (a Jewish name) means 'red earthling' to distiguish him from the majority of other 'earthlings' who in Africa were black.

Ws.

*

I said evolution, as a whole, is stupid.

I dont think I can ever adapt to breathing under water, do you?

Since you live in the UK and if you have the time you should try and watch this program:

It was screened by the BBC and it is on you-tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lyC-CSvCOo

Ws.

*

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Yup bro, been saying that's a possibility for a good 10 years (ignore the childish remarks lol)

So Adam has all gene's mixed together, and so one child was then pure black, another pure white, another with Asian features, etc....

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In antiquity (long before the Bible)it was a widely held belief that Gods had made Humans from mud.

Interesting. Not sure if that was an ancient greek belief, we were taught greek in grade 7, out teacher used to always bring up mythology stories, since then it's always been a fascination, actually most people don't pick the deep meaning behind many of the mythology stories.
Adam (a Jewish name) means 'red earthling' to distiguish him from the majority of other 'earthlings' who in Africa were black.

Was it Jewish? or derived from Aramaic? Or perhaps phonecian? Wasn't it derived from the root term Adeemah (Earth in arabic). Regarding being red, that too is interesting, some have interpreted [15:26] to be 'black' clay. *shrugs*

So Adam has all gene's mixed together, and so one child was then pure black, another pure white, another with Asian features, etc....

So the theory goes.
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Was it Jewish? or derived from Aramaic? Or perhaps phonecian? Wasn't it derived from the root term Adeemah (Earth in arabic). Regarding being red, that too is interesting, some have interpreted [15:26] to be 'black' clay. *shrugs*

Yes, it is interesting.

I cannot find my own references, but here is what Wikipedia says.

Its root is not the standard Semitic root for "man" which is instead '-(n)-sh but is attested as a personal name in the Assyrian King List in the form Adamu showing that it was a genuine name from the early history of the Near East.

Etymologically it is the masculine form of the word adamah meaning ground or earth and related to the words adom (red), admoni (ruddy) and dam (blood).

All the best.

*

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  • 3 weeks later...

just to kind of touch on the subject a bit.

i have done a handful of studies related to evolution and... basically humans in todays world do factually have mutations that bring about new traits AND we also adapt, in the sense of, past traits that are already within our genes re pronounce themselves in certain environments. a couple mutations i know of off the top of my head are mutations of the CCR5 gene and the LRP5V171 protein. CCR5 gives certain people immunity to HIV, which LRP5V171 mutation has given certain families increased bone density.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8751444

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12015390

and of course humans also use already aquired genes in different ways, but...if we think about it. if Adam had dark skin, then...things like light skin in humans most reasonably came from new mutations and subsequent adaptations.

Also, id like to make note of how genetic phylogenetic trees match things like the fossil record, and endogenous retroviral phylogenetic trees, among other fields such as comparative anatomy and ecological phylogenetic trees. Its not just a coincidence that they match up perfectly.

If anyone would like clarity on exactly what i mean, feel free to ask.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

There is no such thing as "Darwinism". No one worships Darwin just like no one worships Mohammed (or calls Islam Mohammedism).

The existence of evolution is a fact just like the existence of gravity is a fact. The theory of gravity explains how gravity works just like the theory of evolution explains how evolution works.

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