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In the Name of God بسم الله

Taqleed Wajib?

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Salam. Before people read this I want everyone to know that I am a Muqallid and follow Ayatullah Sistani.

My question is that How do we know that Taqleed is wajib upon everyone? If a person has sufficient knowledge then he can follow himself, as in the case of the Marajae themselves, But if he does not have sufficient knowledge then he has to follow a person having knowledge.

There are many Shias who are saying that Taqleed is not wajib and curse the Marajae and abuse them. Unfortunately they include many Sayyeds also. Let me be detailed about this. These are people from Punjab in Pakistan. I am not saying that everyone Punjabi is like them. I am merely pointing out that this group of people are basically from Punjab and have now spread to other parts of pakistan as well like Karachi. They say that How can anyone listen to orders of a person other that their Imam (12th Imam). How can anyone follow a non-sayyed? And if in case the Ayatullah is a sayyed then still how can we listen to him instead of our Imam? And they say we have our own logic and common sense for jurisprudence. We have been taught by Aimmah to pray, fast etc. and hence we know all the rules. We dont need to follow anyone else other than the Aimmah. If in any case we come across a problem, we can do Istikhara. And they also curse Marajae and say that how can Marajae call themselves Ayatullah? Imam Ali AS had said that he is Ayatullah and if we call the Marajae also Ayatullah then we are comparing these people with Imam. They hate Marajae because of some Fatwas they have passed on azadari especially zanzeer maatam. They say no-one has the right to stop azadari. How dare any Marajae stop them? (In this case I agree with them for this point only. I dont think anyone has the right to stop azadari because how can they face Bibi Fatima (as) then>). These are all their claims. Not all are sayyeds of course. But most are. Unfortunately, They are mainly Zaidis. Not the group who believe in Hazrat Zaid but Shia Ithnaasharis who are related to 4th Imam through Hazrat Zaid.

However, back to my question. Can I please get proof from Quran and Hadeeth of Prophet and Aimmah that it is wajib for us to follow a Mujtahid during Imam Mehdi's occultation?? I would really appreciate this so that I can stop these people from creating doubt in others minds.

Please remember that I am a believer in Taqleed. But I need Hadeeth from Imam and Quran that we are instructed to follow Marajae as Wajib act.

Thanks very much to all who can help.

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salam

this is a hadith from our book that ive heard

maybe someone could give u a translation

:ÝÃãÇ ãä ßÇä ãä ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ÕÇÆäÇ áäÝÓå ¡ ÍÇÝÙÇ áÏíäå ¡ ãÎÇáÝÇ Úáì åæÇå ¡ ãØíÚÇ áÇãÑ ãæáÇå ¡ÝááÚæÇã Ãä íÞáÏæå

salam

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salam

this is a hadith from our book that ive heard

maybe someone could give u a translation

:ÝÃãÇ ãä ßÇä ãä ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ÕÇÆäÇ áäÝÓå ¡ ÍÇÝÙÇ áÏíäå ¡ ãÎÇáÝÇ Úáì åæÇå ¡ ãØíÚÇ áÇãÑ ãæáÇå ¡ÝááÚæÇã Ãä íÞáÏæå

salam

(wasalam)

ÝÃãÇ ãä ßÇä ãä ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ÕÇÆäÇ áäÝÓå ¡ ÍÇÝÙÇ áÏíäå ¡ ãÎÇáÝÇ Úáì åæÇå ¡ ãØíÚÇ áÇãÑ ãæáÇå ¡ÝááÚæÇã Ãä íÞáÏæå

So then whoever among the fuqaha is an upkeeper of his nafs, protector of his religion, opponent of his desires, submitter to the command of his maula, then the common men should emulate him.

Although the hadith doesn't make any mention of marja (putting the title of fuqaha on marjas has no basis) but anyhow, this hadith is from Tafsir al Askari which is considered fabricated by modern usoolis so it's hypocrisy for usoolis to use this hadith.

Life of Imam Hasan al Askari by Allama Baqir Sharif al Qarashi

[b]Anyhow, it is certain that this tafsir was not Imam Abu Muhammad’s but it was fabricated and ascribed to him.[/b] In addition to the defects it has, it is not eloquent in many of its chapters, and of course, this does not fit the imam who had been endowed with wisdom and eloquence, and he was the most eloquent man in his time. So how could this tafsir, which had no any feature of eloquence, ascribed to this great imam? Besides that, it has some traditions that have excessiveness as I think, and this was too far from the imam (a.s.).

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/index.htm (page 86)

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Salaam bro!

I was in a similar situation to you actually. I always questioned about the following of a particular maraja, but my mind is now clear on this issue. Check out these links which might help you to understand it a bit more:

http://www.al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/taqlid.html

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Salam. Before people read this I want everyone to know that I am a Muqallid and follow Ayatullah Sistani.

My question is that How do we know that Taqleed is wajib upon everyone? If a person has sufficient knowledge then he can follow himself, as in the case of the Marajae themselves, But if he does not have sufficient knowledge then he has to follow a person having knowledge.

Strictly speaking, there really isn't much textual basis for the rigid conception of taqleed commonly understood today. That said, something like it is highly advisable for most people, at least to the level of there being an obligation to seek out advise from a community of scholarship.

At the same time, we have an obligation to study the primary texts on our own. The advice of scholars is an aid to our own study, not a replacement for it.

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Salam. Before people read this I want everyone to know that I am a Muqallid and follow Ayatullah Sistani.

My question is that How do we know that Taqleed is wajib upon everyone? If a person has sufficient knowledge then he can follow himself, as in the case of the Marajae themselves, But if he does not have sufficient knowledge then he has to follow a person having knowledge.

There are many Shias who are saying that Taqleed is not wajib and curse the Marajae and abuse them. Unfortunately they include many Sayyeds also. Let me be detailed about this. These are people from Punjab in Pakistan. I am not saying that everyone Punjabi is like them. I am merely pointing out that this group of people are basically from Punjab and have now spread to other parts of pakistan as well like Karachi. They say that How can anyone listen to orders of a person other that their Imam (12th Imam). How can anyone follow a non-sayyed? And if in case the Ayatullah is a sayyed then still how can we listen to him instead of our Imam? And they say we have our own logic and common sense for jurisprudence. We have been taught by Aimmah to pray, fast etc. and hence we know all the rules. We dont need to follow anyone else other than the Aimmah. If in any case we come across a problem, we can do Istikhara. And they also curse Marajae and say that how can Marajae call themselves Ayatullah? Imam Ali AS had said that he is Ayatullah and if we call the Marajae also Ayatullah then we are comparing these people with Imam. They hate Marajae because of some Fatwas they have passed on azadari especially zanzeer maatam. They say no-one has the right to stop azadari. How dare any Marajae stop them? (In this case I agree with them for this point only. I dont think anyone has the right to stop azadari because how can they face Bibi Fatima (as) then>). These are all their claims. Not all are sayyeds of course. But most are. Unfortunately, They are mainly Zaidis. Not the group who believe in Hazrat Zaid but Shia Ithnaasharis who are related to 4th Imam through Hazrat Zaid.

However, back to my question. Can I please get proof from Quran and Hadeeth of Prophet and Aimmah that it is wajib for us to follow a Mujtahid during Imam Mehdi's occultation?? I would really appreciate this so that I can stop these people from creating doubt in others minds.

Please remember that I am a believer in Taqleed. But I need Hadeeth from Imam and Quran that we are instructed to follow Marajae as Wajib act.

Thanks very much to all who can help.

(bismillah) (salam)

Very good question as I wonder about it also. So many people believe in following honorable religious scholars, surely there must have been some Quranic verses or Ahadith from Ahlul Bayt that advises us Shias to follow such scholars. Can someone share them please?

Allahuma Salli Ala Muhammadin Wahle Muhammad

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(bismillah) (salam)

Very good question as I wonder about it also. So many people believe in following honorable religious scholars, surely there must have been some Quranic verses or Ahadith from Ahlul Bayt that advises us Shias to follow such scholars. Can someone share them please?

Allahuma Salli Ala Muhammadin Wahle Muhammad

(wasalam)

Not really, not if you mean doing taqlid them as such. The ahadith on taqlid generally condemn it*, as did Shi`as for centuries considering it to be a Sunni innovation. (that is, taqlid to the non-Ma`sum)

See here:

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/judgement/impermissibility-of-taqlid-to-other-than-the-masum

* there is one narration I know of that permits it (though often mistranslated as saying that it is obligatory), it's included on that page (#20), but see the notes on that narration there.

Fact is, there is no actual naqli proof for taqlid, the arguments for it are all `aqli based, having only been developed over the centuries following after the ghayba.

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So brothers, what is the final answer?? Is Taqleed wajib or not?

when you say you are yourself in taqleed of sistani then why do you want Ahadees from Masoomeen a.s. What does a Muqallid of Imam Sistani got to do with Ahadees because Muqallid should and does take Fatwa of his Mujtahid over Hadees and that is the meaning of Usooli.

Ya Ali Madad

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Yes Taqlid wajib. Imam-e-Zamana(ATF) told last of his reprensentatives, ulema will be his velayat-e-faqih, until Imam's reappearance when there will only one point of view.

Consequences of not in taqlid, will lead you follow so-called intellectuals, CNN, BBC, liberals etc.. etc...,

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Yes Taqlid wajib. Imam-e-Zamana(ATF) told last of his reprensentatives, ulema will be his velayat-e-faqih, until Imam's reappearance when there will only one point of view.

Consequences of not in taqlid, will lead you follow so-called intellectuals, CNN, BBC, liberals etc.. etc...,

(bismillah)

(salam)

Thanks for sharing that info brother. Can you also please share ahadith of the Imams (as) with references where he made it wajib upon us to follow Ulemas as his successros.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Thanks for sharing that info brother. Can you also please share ahadith of the Imams (as) with references where he made it wajib upon us to follow Ulemas as his successros.

(salam)

Just like prophet did not leave ummah without guidance, so appointed Maula Ali as Imam by Allah's order. Same here, difference, there is no Imam after 12th Imam, but yes guidance continues...

Every book on Imam of our time has a chapter or section dedicated to this with references, so please check books on Imam of our time.

Take care

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Just like prophet did not leave ummah without guidance, so appointed Maula Ali as Imam by Allah's order. Same here, difference, there is no Imam after 12th Imam, but yes guidance continues...

Every book on Imam of our time has a chapter or section dedicated to this with references, so please check books on Imam of our time.

Take care

Perhaps you should check yourself without assuming such a thing is to be found..

Anyhow, you're likely referring to this tawqi` (#4 below):

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/tauqeeaat-of-imam-al-asr

Mind you, what it actually says in the part you're thinking about is this:

æÃãÇ ÇáÍæÇÏË ÇáæÇÞÚÉ ÝÇÑÌÚæÇ ÝíåÇ Åáì ÑæÇÉ ÍÏíËäÇ ÝÇäåã ÍÌÊí Úáíßã æÃäÇ ÍÌÉ Çááå Úáíåã

"And as to the newly-occuring events, then turn, in such times, to the narrators of our hadith, for they are my proof over you and I am the proof of Allah over them."

So what's it's actually saying is to refer to the hadith narrators to know what to do. And what do hadith narrators do? They narrate hadiths...

Interestingly that same tawqi` (which btw according to strict usooli standards would not be sahih, hence not usable as a proof to them) also contains this line:

æÃãÇ ÇáÎãÓ ÝÞÏ ÇÈíÍ áÔíÚÊäÇ æÌÚáæÇ ãäå Ýí Íá Åáì æÞÊ ÙåæÑ ÃãÑäÇ áÊØíÈ æáÇÏÊåã æáÇ ÊÎÈË .

"And as to the khums, then it has been made permissible to our shi`ah and they have been made free of it till the time of zhuhur (advent) of our affair, that their births may be made pleasant and not impure/unclean."

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Salam

There is hadiths that only a Wasi of a Prophet or a Prophet has the right to judge and others should refrain from judging. Then there are hadiths that state the scholars are successors of the Prophet (pbuh). And other hadiths that let those well versed with Quran and hadiths to judge. One hadith states judging is only allowed for a leader whom has knowledge of the Shariah and is just towards all Muslims.

Combine them together, it comes out that the normal people don't have the right to judge, while Fuqaha do have the right to judge. As they have the right to judge, it's obvious their judgment could be followed.

There is also this from Misbahal Shariah:

Giving judgement is not permissible for someone who has not been endowed by Allah with the qualities of inner purity, sincerity in both his hidden and visible actions, and a proof from his Lord in every state. This is because whoever has judged has decreed, and decree is only valid by the permission of Allah and by His proof. Whoever is liberal in his judgement, without having made a proper examination, is ignorant and will be taken to task for his ignorance and will be burdened with his judgement as the tradition indicates. Knowledge is a light, which Allah casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills.

The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever is boldest among you in judging is also the most insolent to Allah'. Does not the judge know that he is the one who has come between Allah and His bondsmen, and that he is wavering between the Garden and the Fire? Sufyan ibn 'Uyaynah said, 'How can anyone else benefit from my knowledge if I have denied myself its benefit?' It is inappropriate for anyone to judge on what is permissible (halal) and what is forbidden (haram) among creation, except for one who causes the people of his time, his village, and his city to follow the truth through obedience to the Holy Prophet and who recognizes what is applicable of his judgement. The Holy Prophet said, 'It is because giving judgement is such a tremendous affair, in which there is no place for "hopefully", "perhaps" or "may be".

The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, 'Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur'an which abrogate and those which are abrogated?'

'No'.

'Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah in the parables of the Qur'an?'

'No'.

'Then you have perished and caused others to perish,' the Commander of the Faithful replied.

A judge needs to know the various meanings of the Qur'an, the truth of the Prophetic way, the inward indications, courtesies, consensus and disagreements, and to be familiar with the bases of what they agree upon and disagree about. Then he must have acute discrimination, sound action, wisdom, and precaution. If he has these things, then let him judge.

---

Note that only he is allowed to judge whom causes people to obey the Prophet (saw). We can say, that Fuqaha lead people in obeying the Prophet (saw). The condition is also they should well versed with the Quran and Sunnah and understand everything there is to know in it and be pure.

We can see by this hadith that there existed people well versed in the Quran and Sunnah, that lead people of their area to obey the Prophet (saw). He's been allowed to judge matters of halal and haram, while others are not.

The fact they been allowed to judge on matters of halal and haram, show they can be followed on those matters. However, they need to have those characteristics which are hard to get.

Edited by MysticKnight
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Yes Taqlid wajib. Imam-e-Zamana(ATF) told last of his reprensentatives, ulema will be his velayat-e-faqih, until Imam's reappearance..

That's a Tall Tall claim.. But still unbacked by proof.

We r bound to respect the scholars for their intellectual pursuits & consult them for guidance but this above claim is out of proportions.

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I listened to following majlis about velayat, want your opinion brothers, not trying to enforce something on anyone, so I apologise. Basically, what maulana saying we should accepy velayat faqih which is government setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngFsZhsbI_g

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Salam

There is hadiths that only a Wasi of a Prophet or a Prophet has the right to judge and others should refrain from judging. Then there are hadiths that state the scholars are successors of the Prophet (pbuh). And other hadiths that let those well versed with Quran and hadiths to judge. One hadith states judging is only allowed for a leader whom has knowledge of the Shariah and is just towards all Muslims.

Combine them together, it comes out that the normal people don't have the right to judge, while Fuqaha do have the right to judge. As they have the right to judge, it's obvious their judgment could be followed.

There is also this from Misbahal Shariah:

Giving judgement is not permissible for someone who has not been endowed by Allah with the qualities of inner purity, sincerity in both his hidden and visible actions, and a proof from his Lord in every state. This is because whoever has judged has decreed, and decree is only valid by the permission of Allah and by His proof. Whoever is liberal in his judgement, without having made a proper examination, is ignorant and will be taken to task for his ignorance and will be burdened with his judgement as the tradition indicates. Knowledge is a light, which Allah casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills.

The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever is boldest among you in judging is also the most insolent to Allah'. Does not the judge know that he is the one who has come between Allah and His bondsmen, and that he is wavering between the Garden and the Fire? Sufyan ibn 'Uyaynah said, 'How can anyone else benefit from my knowledge if I have denied myself its benefit?' It is inappropriate for anyone to judge on what is permissible (halal) and what is forbidden (haram) among creation, except for one who causes the people of his time, his village, and his city to follow the truth through obedience to the Holy Prophet and who recognizes what is applicable of his judgement. The Holy Prophet said, 'It is because giving judgement is such a tremendous affair, in which there is no place for "hopefully", "perhaps" or "may be".

The Commander of the Faithful said to a judge, 'Do you know the difference between those verses of the Qur'an which abrogate and those which are abrogated?'

'No'.

'Do you have a command of the intentions of Allah in the parables of the Qur'an?'

'No'.

'Then you have perished and caused others to perish,' the Commander of the Faithful replied.

A judge needs to know the various meanings of the Qur'an, the truth of the Prophetic way, the inward indications, courtesies, consensus and disagreements, and to be familiar with the bases of what they agree upon and disagree about. Then he must have acute discrimination, sound action, wisdom, and precaution. If he has these things, then let him judge.

---

Note that only he is allowed to judge whom causes people to obey the Prophet (saw). We can say, that Fuqaha lead people in obeying the Prophet (saw). The condition is also they should well versed with the Quran and Sunnah and understand everything there is to know in it and be pure.

We can see by this hadith that there existed people well versed in the Quran and Sunnah, that lead people of their area to obey the Prophet (saw). He's been allowed to judge matters of halal and haram, while others are not.

The fact they been allowed to judge on matters of halal and haram, show they can be followed on those matters. However, they need to have those characteristics which are hard to get.

Bro sorry to be harsh but how can you come to conclusions so easily. I have seen that you interprete somany ahadees and that too incorrectly. How are scholars successors of prophet and if yes why are not abubakar umar considered successors and why only Ali and other Aimma a.s. Scholars refers to ahlebayth a.s. and there is another hadees which the usoolis quote often that the scholars of this umma are higher in degree then the prophets of Isralites. Again this refers to Ulema rabbani who are our Aimma a.s. I have not come across any fallible equavalent to infallible prophets of the bani israel.

Ya Ali Madad

It's not a Devine directive brother.

who told you that? Even a leaf cannot move from a place without Allah azwj wanting it to move. Khamanei is what he is because of Allah azwj willling and so is Julia Gillard. And all presidents, kings, prime ministers, abubakar, umar, usman, muawiya, yazeed are willed by Allah.

and I am not kidding here as it is the truth.

But the Truth is On it's way.

Ya ALI Madad

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Bro sorry to be harsh but how can you come to conclusions so easily. I have seen that you interprete somany ahadees and that too incorrectly.

How do you know your not interpreting them incorrectly. We know by other hadiths those well versed with Quran and hadiths were given permission to judge. If judgement is only allowed to a Prophet or a Wasi of a Prophet, it tells you they are Awsiya of the Prophets. As you can see from misbahal shariah, those having certain characteristics can judge for people. As for the term Uluma, you can see Imam Hussain (as) talks to Uluma and calls them Uluma in the sermon of Mina, and it means people knowledgeable about the religion.

The Quran also has others judging matters for people in bani-Israel, so obviously, it didn't mean only Prophets and chosen Imams.

Edited by MysticKnight
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How do you know your not interpreting them incorrectly. We know by other hadiths those well versed with Quran and hadiths were given permission to judge. If judgement is only allowed to a Prophet or a Wasi of a Prophet, it tells you they are Awsiya of the Prophets. As you can see from misbahal shariah, those having certain characteristics can judge for people. As for the term Uluma, you can see Imam Hussain (as) talks to Uluma and calls them Uluma in the sermon of Mina, and it means people knowledgeable about the religion.

The Quran also has others judging matters for people in bani-Israel, so obviously, it didn't mean only Prophets and chosen Imams.

If there is more than one interpretation then the matter is 'relative' in nature and is not the absolute truth. So the quarrel ends on this point.

:rolleyes:

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If there is more than one interpretation then the matter is 'relative' in nature and is not the absolute truth. So the quarrel ends on this point.

:rolleyes:

Salam

Quran and hadiths allow judging for other then an infallible, they allow it special people that are well versed with Quran and hadiths and cause their people to obey the Prophet.

Hadiths say judging is only allowed for two, a Prophet or a Wasi of a Prophet.

It follows those allowed to judge are Awsiya of the Prophets. This means they are Successors.

Now what does a successor mean. It means to take their place in society.

We know however as far Imamate be Amrallah is, then there is only 12 Successors to the Prophet (saw) to the station. Otherwise, the position of executing the laws and leading, is held by the pure people whom been given knowledge and traits to judge. The position of a Prophet is taken by them except for Prophethood.

As only they have the right to judge halal and haram, it follows they are allowed to be follow in halal and haram, while others are not allowed to judge.

The question is, whom is pure, understand the various meanings of Quran, invested with wisdom, etc... These characteristics must be manifest in their speeches and works. They must be causing people to obey the Prophet, and hence like one of the hadiths state, to be a leader.

Only they have the right to judge matters for people. As far as the lay people are concerned, they don't have the right to judge what is halal and haram. Therefore it follows the Fuqaha must be followed.

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I don't get how people wouldn't want to qalid(follow) anyone anyway.... Unless if you have studied for countless years and devoted all your time to Arabic language, Islamic History, memorized the Quran and read every interpretation possible, are familiar with all the a7adeeth books, then you are not capable of making decisions regarding your faith. So why not follow someone who has actually done all of that?

Anywho, yes, I believe it's wajib.

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How do you know your not interpreting them incorrectly. We know by other hadiths those well versed with Quran and hadiths were given permission to judge. If judgement is only allowed to a Prophet or a Wasi of a Prophet, it tells you they are Awsiya of the Prophets. As you can see from misbahal shariah, those having certain characteristics can judge for people. As for the term Uluma, you can see Imam Hussain (as) talks to Uluma and calls them Uluma in the sermon of Mina, and it means people knowledgeable about the religion.

The Quran also has others judging matters for people in bani-Israel, so obviously, it didn't mean only Prophets and chosen Imams.

hmm so there can be more than one interpretation and in that case neither do I have a right to impose nor u have a right to impose the interpretation on each other and in such cases for me it's ehtiyat from such an act.

Although I can go in to depth of this hadees and others to show what ahadees from other than misbah us sharia state.

Anyway, I will do this when time comes but I suggest u read a thread of mine called "judgements" which I posted few months ago.

Ya Ali Madad

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hmm so there can be more than one interpretation and in that case neither do I have a right to impose nor u have a right to impose the interpretation on each other and in such cases for me it's ehtiyat from such an act.

Although I can go in to depth of this hadees and others to show what ahadees from other than misbah us sharia state.

Anyway, I will do this when time comes but I suggest u read a thread of mine called "judgements" which I posted few months ago.

Ya Ali Madad

Salam

There isn't really more then one interpretation, because both Quran and hadiths have others judging matters. Others are allowed to judge per other hadiths. The fact only Prophet or a Wasi can judge, shows that the judges allowed to judge are Awsiya.

[shakir 5:44] Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

And:

[shakir 5:47] And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

So we can judging is allowed for other an infallible.

But what to hadiths say, only a Prophet or a Wasi of a Prophet can occupy the seat of a judge.

This means judges must be either Prophets or Awsiya.

It's clear. And as no one else is allowed to judge, then it's them must be followed for halal and haram.

This shows the Fuqaha are successors of the Prophets. They take their position, with exception of Prophethood. However the 12 Imams are the only ones to succeed the position of Imamate be Amrallah.

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(salam)

No doubts in it that they (jurists) r in a far superior position to analyze issues, in light of the Islamic literature and they must must b consulted for guidance, no doubts that the verdict of the jurist must must be obtained ... Problems:

...the word "wajib" is the problem, because it has Devine strings attached to it even though one needs to really make out a case and then use inference as a tool to justify it as Divinely sanctioned.

...jurist is an analyst, a specialist v v respectable but no1 takes the "place" of or gets inclusion into the realm of the prophet (pbuh) and the uul ul amr, the infallibles. Ppl can be their slaves but CanNOT sit on this seat, in their place, no1 but themselves.

...there r conflicting rulings

...human factor can never ever b ruled out, infact it's a constant in the equation. Human intellect has limitations.

...then with growing influence, the jurist then wants direct territorial Power leading to ugly political situations. Wilayat e fakeeh is such an example, of direct rule. No way.

...tomorrow all doctors may join hands and say that since they r the specialists and a healthy nation is bound to have lesser problems, so the doctors should b in charge of political power, so they can run the hospitals from a power_position so there is no hindrance in their working and the logic being that they (docs) will improve health of ppl and so they will be ultimately beneficial for mankind. NO, just bec u r a specialist in a field, does not mean that u deserve political power, individual brilliance like that of imam khomini (r a) r exceptionally blessed cases.

...the binding nature of a ruling, if wajib, must attract Devine penalty for not following. This does not make sence.

...taking the "place" of the imams then just does not keep restricted to analysis, it spreads to other domains of the infallibles, which is incorrect and an over dose.

Other pit falls also exist, may pointout later. But a jurists opinion must not b more than of an advisory nature.

Edited by Bukharisolo
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 (salam) 

No doubts in it that they (jurists) r in a far superior position to analyze issues, in light of the Islamic literature and they must must b consulted for guidance, no doubts that the verdict of the jurist must must be obtained ...  Problems:

...the word "wajib" is the problem, because it has Devine strings attached to it even though one needs to really make out a case and then use inference as a tool to justify it as Divinely sanctioned.

  

...jurist is an analyst, a specialist v v respectable but no1 takes the "place" of or gets inclusion into the realm of the prophet (pbuh) and the uul ul amr, the infallibles. Ppl can be their slaves but CanNOT sit on this seat, in their place, no1 but themselves.

  

...there r conflicting rulings

...human factor can never ever b ruled out, infact it's a constant in the equation. Human intellect has limitations.

...then with growing influence, the jurist then wants direct territorial Power leading to ugly political situations. Wilayat e fakeeh is such an example, of direct rule. No way.

...tomorrow all doctors may join hands and say that since they r the specialists and a healthy nation is bound to have lesser problems, so the doctors should b in charge of political power, so they can run the hospitals from a power_position so there is no hindrance in their working and the logic being that they (docs) will improve health of ppl and so they will be ultimately beneficial for mankind. NO, just bec u r a specialist in a field, does not mean that u deserve political power, individual brilliance like that of imam khomini (r a) r exceptionally blessed cases.

...the binding nature of a ruling, if wajib, must attract Devine penalty for not following. This does not make sence.

...taking the "place" of the imams then just does not keep restricted to analysis, it spreads to other domains of the infallibles, which is incorrect and an over dose.

Other pit falls also exist, may pointout later. But a jurists opinion must not b more than of an advisory nature. 

(bismillah)

(salam)

Couldnt have agreed with you more! I personally am not averse to holding the honorable scholars in high esteem and have a high regard for their verdicts on all issues. However saying that following them is wajib doesnt seem to have any Islamic basis to it. A Wajib act is a serious issue in Islam, and the list of all "wajib acts" have been very clearly and explicitly stated in our religion. Saying Taqleed is wajib seems to be based on inferences and assumption. The very fact that opposing verdicts on certain views exist within the Marja community in indicative of the fact that non-masoom(mathoom) cannot be infallible. As we all know, 2 opposing ideas cant both be right at the same time.

Asalam o alaikum

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Salam

If normal people are not allowed to judge halal and haram, then makes it obligatory to follow those whom are allowed does it not?

(salam)

Agreed, without doubts this is a sound logic but it is also logical that a line must b drawn somewhere, boundaries must be defined. No_go_areas need to be demarcated. If it's due to the doctrine of necessity, then it must have limited scope.

Edited by Bukharisolo
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Salam

If normal people are not allowed to judge halal and haram, then makes it obligatory to follow those whom are allowed does it not?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, doesnt your own statement sound even to you yourself like a "deduction" based on stretched logic of sorts. "Makes it obligatory" is "deduced" from whatever reasoning you presented earlier I guess. Not quite the same as the other "Wajibs" like offering your prayers or believing in Ahlul Bayt. Just saying....... Making something wajib that has not been explicitly stated as such is kinda really hard to stomach.

Asalam o alaikum

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, doesnt your own statement sound even to you yourself like a "deduction" based on stretched logic of sorts. "Makes it obligatory" is "deduced" from whatever reasoning you presented earlier I guess. Not quite the same as the other "Wajibs" like offering your prayers or believing in Ahlul Bayt. Just saying....... Making something wajib that has not been explicitly stated as such is kinda really hard to stomach.

Asalam o alaikum

Salam

No is allowed to judge halal or haram except pure leaders deeply versed in Quran and hadiths and of wisdom. It is only allowed for a Prophet or a Successor of a Prophet. This much is clear in Hadiths, is it not.

If we are not allowed to judge halal and haram unless we become of that said characteristics, then it follows we must follow the people allowed to judge halal and haram.

It's a clear logical deduction, it's not ambiguous. Either we must of the characteristics to judge halal and haram, or we must follow those of those characteristics.

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Salam

No is allowed to judge halal or haram except pure leaders deeply versed in Quran and hadiths and of wisdom. It is only allowed for a Prophet or a Successor of a Prophet. This much is clear in Hadiths, is it not.

If we are not allowed to judge halal and haram unless we become of that said characteristics, then it follows we must follow the people allowed to judge halal and haram.

It's a clear logical deduction, it's not ambiguous. Either we must of the characteristics to judge halal and haram, or we must follow those of those characteristics.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, I just have a problem with the word "must" from your post above. Show me Quranic Ayah or Hadith where it says, you must follow, implying it being a "wajib" act.

(salam)

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