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Son Of Adam

Don't Teach Your Women?

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(salam)

Can you shed more lights into what other meaning of reading and writing should we understand here. What is the proper context of the word reading and writing?

Why doesn’t your colleague Bhooka understand the esoteric meaning behind the hadeeth? He takes everything in literal sense, so to him, it is perfectly acceptable to act upon hadeeth that promote illiteracy, locking women up and abandoning a Quranic surah.

BTW, we are not rejecting hadeeths. We are questioning why a great majority of the scholars and Muslims have abandoned the tradition of keeping women locked in her home and keeping her illiterate.

Salam,

In a western context I can't say my girl child isn't going to school and I will teach her reading and what is necessary of it? This is considered as child abuse according to law and has penalities so according to other ahadees we act according to law don't we.

In a eastern setting, u will see that knowledge has a different meaning in different places. Let's take india, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan for example: The girl child goes to jafferia(Islamic school) and some go to English medium schools. They learn either religion or worldly required sciences. Only few pursue higher studies and very few among them have a decent job after marriage. These all are because of culture and they use Islam to justify their acts.

As brother mac pointed; it can mean Reading not writing. So Reading Quran (which has every knowledge and not believing as such is kufr?) . So a woman reads most however to an unmarried(mostly) sura yusuf can generate enthusiasm about what sexual desires are(even the scientists say that children of young age easily become adults in their head if exposed to anything related to sex/romance etc.) Here in australia it is considered as an abuse and they have ratings on television stating if it is suitable for children or not?) . And if a married reads it; it may seem as encouragement of sex out of marriage by the weakminded however some may learn that it is prohibited and oh no I should stay away from this but the latter are few and there was a good example in a thread recently how a 17 year old was thinking about men all the time and how many said it is common and u will be alright. This is because we all have hone beyond sura yusuf and are aware of sexuality and sex at younger ages (when it is not needed at young (preteen/teen) age.

In our city(india) there is a big factory which manufactures clothing for exports to mainly USA and hundreds of women are given petty jobs such as threading/weaving etc. They can actually take it home(as sub contractors) and have small businesses at home where they employ many poor women. I can only assume at this point that while taking care of 2-6 year olds how difficult it is to work atleast parttine(for a female). So this work is more succesful than other clerical jobs. In western countries I have seen many indo-pak women using their cooking and tailoring skills too. And Bangladeshi women have recently started many tailoring stuff through their microfinance schemes and i their was a fashion show in Sydney exhibiting their work. So, few exceptions does not render this field a waste. And you know the famous burkini too don't u?

I must confess that I don't know how many trades are good for women to work while encouraging to stay indoors as much as possible. There were these midwives, nurses, etc during rasool Allah saww's time and syyeda zainab(whom no one taught) had many female students who learnt religion from her. Imam Sadiq asws had bibi husna as a student and she debated with harun l.a., but her acts are not hujja. We should all try to search more on the subject and define the fields and where women can work and where they can't according to ahadees?? And we can't throw this hadees away as a Sunni hadees until we get the whole picture through ahadees.

And bro bhooka, if u with intention of itaat Want to follow this hadees then may Allah azwj bless u for ur intentions but better don't force it on other's. I know that u believe self Amal is first and then anything else for others. Pakistani, middle-eastern social context is different bro and even if I want to I can't practise many things in Islam but I don't change Islam to suit my needs rather consider it as my defect in not being able to do so however i hate the unislamic things that I am forced to do and hope that Allah azwj forgives me for this.

And baqiyatullah bro, u just need a reason to fight akhbaris. U don't know maybe about alam e zarr where we were ordered to go forward towards Hell by our Lord and we took it literally and proceeded without thinking why, what, where etc so unlike other people we try to know what our lord ordered and follow it without what and why's and many want to know what self made lords ordered even if they know what their Real Lord ordered. Didn't they know Allah azwj questions according to level of Aql and the Niyyat is counted for. And u probably don't know that akhbaris have the best system in understanding ahadees because we consider every hadees important even if it contradicts others and iktelaafil Amal (difference in Amal ) due to following different ahadees and ikhtelaafil Amal due to following two different opinions has a distance wider than heaven and Earth.

Ya Ali Madad

Ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

(bismillah)

As they say, rather than trying to change others, one should try to change him/herself. Why don't you start following it? (I REALLY hope you don't take this as an insult because that IS what the hadith says). Besides as per ahadith, even if we carry a recommended act upon the knowledge that it's from the sunnah, then even if it's not we'll get the reward (but unfortunately these ahadith are twisted to justify aliun waliullah in adhan, matam, juloos, nad e ali etc).

I am surprised you fell for the Usoolee principle of all recommended actions being okay to do. Read those aHaadeeth carefully, it says "if a reward is mentioned". So if there is NO reward mentioned in the hadeeth, then that specific hadeeth cannot fall under, "act upon it and you'll still get the reward".

And this hadeeth has no reward mentioned.

Al-Mufeed in his book aHkaam Al-Nisaa' has explained this hadeeth.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I am surprised you fell for the Usoolee principle of all recommended actions being okay to do. Read those aHaadeeth carefully, it says "if a reward is mentioned". So if there is NO reward mentioned in the hadeeth, then that specific hadeeth cannot fall under, "act upon it and you'll still get the reward".

And this hadeeth has no reward mentioned.

Al-Mufeed in his book aHkaam Al-Nisaa' has explained this hadeeth.

(salam)

(wasalam)

Sister Zareen is an usooli, a VERY hardcore one. I know their games/arguments etc, I myself used to be THE most hardcore usooli not so long ago.

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I don't understand why people want to reject ahadees calling it weird, baseless what not.

Let us see what knowledge is according to rasool Allah saww

1. Mohkam ayat of Quran.

2. Ahadees e masoom which includes ilm e Tibb(medicine)

and what we consider knowledge:

1. Politics.

2. Theories against Islamic teachings.

3. Learning Disputing.

4. And many other types which help only for this world.

Imam Sadiq asws said: Teach you women fadail of Ali asws that it would protect them.

Do u guys think That can anything for a guy or a girl be greater than fadail of Ali asws?

Not teaching Reading and writing may have many meanings within. And also does spinning and weaving. So don't become a kafir by rejecting ahadees.

Ya Ali Madad

salam..

well, first of Allah.. rejecting a hadith Which doesnt match the Qur;an is not kufr .

Prophet Muhammed saww said "If there is a hadith has been attributed to me, Match it with the Quran, if it matches accept it and if it goes

against it then reject it outright". where does it say in the Qur'an for women not to learn anything and be locked up?.. the "stay in your houses" verses replied to the prophet saww's wives at the time not to go out after he passed away. Where can this hadith match the Quran?..

If women are illiterate, then how on earth are they supposed to help their children learn?..Under Mothers feet lies heaven is not just because they bear pain, its because they are role models fore their children. if they have knowledge and akhlaq, 99.9% of their children will have this effect, why do parents get forgiven in their graves, if their child reads bismillah?. how can their mother teach them that then?.. What about all the hadiths such as "learn knowledge from the cradle to the grave", emphasis on knowledge?.. hadiths such as teaching "he who teaches the Quran is amongst the best person"?.. we cant just blindly start following hadiths. It has been over 1400 years obviously there is going to be changes and alterations to them. When a hadith is found..one against a hundred without matching the Quran then how can we accept it?.. we either learn knowldge or we dont? how can we act upon hadiths that contradict each other?.. both things cant logically be right .Allah knows that nowadays we learn from books we dont have good memories like those of the Arabs back then. They were bound to write down knowledge so how can women not learn reading and writing?.

so first of all we have to match it to the Quran, context it etc.. then we can claim that the above hadith is valid. This isnt about sexism etc.. thats aside the point.

It is just the fact of what is right..and what is not.

And Allah knows best.

wasalam.

Edited by shia_warrior92

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To those who'd turn this into some Akhbari vs Usooli thing, identifying the former with some narrow literalism that is prone to a backwards sexism stuck in the past and contrasting it to the supposedly more advanced, enlightened Usooli position that would be favorable to women's education and so on, a simple question: How many of these (usooli) maraji` would allow you to do taqlid to a woman? Ever asked yourself why that is?

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They were bound to write down knowledge so how can women not learn reading and writing?.

For the gazillionth time, the hadith is not saying for women to remain illiterate not being able to read... If you want to discuss the narration fine, but at least talk about what it's actually saying instead of making arguments about something it's not.

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but at least talk about what it's actually saying instead of making arguments about something it's not.

In my limited experience on SC, this is an impossibility. These 'intellectuals' just tend to go off on a tangent.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I am confused here. How did this turn into some Akhbari vs. Usooli argument?

I doubt you even know a single _actual_ Akhbari.

Pseudo-akhbaris from Indo/Pak region who follow the website hubeali.com do not count as akhbaris.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I am confused here. How did this turn into some Akhbari vs. Usooli argument?

(salam)

It's because it' was Bhooka who was presenting the hadith in his blog, so folks have assumed that this is some Akhbari thing.

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The irony is, that in fact a more strictly Akhbari approach would if anything be more pro women educating themselves in the religion than would be it's standard Usooli counterpart. How so? Because in this view (the more "radical" Akhbari one) taqlid to the ghayr al-ma`sum is haram, and thus it is incumbent upon everyone, male or female, to learn at least enough of their religion (directly from the sources) to suffice for their own responsibilities in life (e.g. their a`mal such as salat and fasting, and their mu`amilat such as the food they eat, the marriages they enter, the inheritances they leave, etc.). So within this view the woman would have to become fairly educated at least to the level of being able to competently carry out her own individual taklif. Within the Usooli view though, the acquisition of that knowledge from the sources of the religion (i.e. the Quran and the ahadith) is the specialized domain of a few, while the responsibility of the majority is simply to obey without question whatever one of those from the few tell them to do, with zero responsibility for learning beyond that (i.e. memorizing the pertinent fatawa). Since (as my earlier question asked) the majority of Usooli scholars consider taqlid to a woman to be haram (regardless of whether the muqallid is a woman themselves or not), it means the only role for a woman in life in terms of her position vis a vis religious scholarship and learning (short of becoming a mujtahida herself which is exceedingly rare for a woman to do) would be to follow the fatawa of a fallible male scholar.

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The irony is, that in fact a more strictly Akhbari approach would if anything be more pro women educating themselves in the religion than would be it's standard Usooli counterpart. How so? Because in this view (the more "radical" Akhbari one) taqlid to the ghayr al-ma`sum is haram, and thus it is incumbent upon everyone, male or female, to learn at least enough of their religion (directly from the sources) to suffice for their own responsibilities in life (e.g. their a`mal such as salat and fasting, and their mu`amilat such as the food they eat, the marriages they enter, the inheritances they leave, etc.). So within this view the woman would have to become fairly educated at least to the level of being able to competently carry out her own individual taklif. Within the Usooli view though, the acquisition of that knowledge from the sources of the religion (i.e. the Quran and the ahadith) is the specialized domain of a few, while the responsibility of the majority is simply to obey without question whatever one of those from the few tell them to do, with zero responsibility for learning beyond that (i.e. memorizing the pertinent fatawa). Since (as my earlier question asked) the majority of Usooli scholars consider taqlid to a woman to be haram (regardless of whether the muqallid is a woman themselves or not), it means the only role for a woman in life in terms of her position vis a vis religious scholarship and learning (short of becoming a mujtahida herself which is exceedingly rare for a woman to do) would be to follow the fatawa of a fallible male scholar.

that's right akhbaris man/woman both need to learn. Every man and woman is a mukallaf and is bound to have religious knowledge but people are persistent about seeking non religious knowledge for women and seeking a job, staying out etc. The topic is going haywire in to many directions losing it's essence.

Ya Ali Madad

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It`s kufr to believe int his hadith, no it`s kufr to not outright be sure this is not the words of our Imams (as). Plain and simple. It`s kufr of what the beautiful religion truly is and covering the light of God and religion of God that is the nature he created humanity in. The Quran is a remembrance to the whole world. There are rewards for reciting the whole Quran. It makes no sense to say not to teach them Suratal Yusuf.

There is times where one shouldn`t reject hadith, there is times where one shouldn`t accept, and there is times where there is no doubt, it`s kufr not to reject hadith. When it`s manifestly contradictory to what we know about God and his light, then it`s obligatory to reject, and kufr to accept it.

The Quran says Mohammad (saw) is a reminder to the worlds. It said the path of God is a reminder to the worlds. Morality is a reminder, it`s not something we have no clue about. The religion is the nature of God that he founded humanity once upon, and sent Mohammad (saw) with that nature and wisdom, and made his light a reminder to the worlds. When something manifestly contradicts the light, and is for sure not of it, it becomes obligatory to reject it.

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(salam)

The irony is, that in fact a more strictly Akhbari approach would if anything be more pro women educating themselves in the religion than would be it's standard Usooli counterpart. How so? Because in this view (the more "radical" Akhbari one) taqlid to the ghayr al-ma`sum is haram, and thus it is incumbent upon everyone, male or female, to learn at least enough of their religion (directly from the sources) to suffice for their own responsibilities in life (e.g. their a`mal such as salat and fasting, and their mu`amilat such as the food they eat, the marriages they enter, the inheritances they leave, etc.). So within this view the woman would have to become fairly educated at least to the level of being able to competently carry out her own individual taklif.

How is this even remotely possible, when you have a hadeeth that strongly recommend against teaching women writing. Writing is one of the functions of being completely literate even if Islam doesn't acknowledge the usefulness of writing for women.

Secondly, I am not sure all the women have Ayatullahs in their home to teach them everything about religion. They do need to step outside of their home in order to learn.

And guess what? The hadeeth does not even recommend that.

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(salam)

How is this even remotely possible, when you have a hadeeth that strongly recommend against teaching women writing. Writing is one of the functions of being completely literate even if Islam doesn't acknowledge the usefulness of writing for women.

Secondly, I am not sure all the women have Ayatullahs in their home to teach them everything about religion. They do need to step outside of their home in order to learn.

And guess what? The hadeeth does not even recommend that.

sister I think u did not read the previous reply to u. Writing may refer to Maintaining accounts as there is another hadees that men take care of account or may refer to issuing judgments. And stepping outside could carry conditions such as permission of wali(father/husband), not wearing transparent dress and/or heavy perfume and/or without hijab and/or unreliable or non mahram men or praying in masjid as we have ahadees regarding these issue. To me it is an unclear hadees but why people want to make fun of it or deny it is what I can't understand.

Ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

(bismillah)

This hadeeth can be seen in Sunnis books. But the Sunni viewpoint of this hadeeth is that it is mawDoo` (Fabricated).

لا تسكنوهن الغرف ، ولا تعلموهن الكتابة ، وعلموهن المغزل وسورة النور

  • Source:
  • Al-Haakim, Mustadarak, vol. 2, pg. 396
  • Al-Haythamee, Majma` Al-Zawaa'id, vol. 4, pg. 93
  • Al-Bayhaqee, Sunan Al-Bayhaqee, vol. 2, pg. 477
    Grading:
  • Al-Bayhaqee said the Isnad is Munkar

Al-Albaani has discussed this hadeeth and it's authenticity extensively in his book Silsalah aHaadeeth Al-Da`eefah wa Al-MawDoo`ah, vol. 5, pg. 30, hadeeth # 2017. He said the hadeeth is mawDoo` (Fabricated).

(Taken from my personal copy of Al-Albaani's Silsalah aHaadeeth Al-Da`eefah wa Al-MawDoo`ah, vol. 5, pg. 30, hadeeth # 2017)

silsalahdaeefahvol5pg30.jpg

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

This hadeeth can be seen in Sunnis books. But the Sunni viewpoint of this hadeeth is that it is mawDoo` (Fabricated).

áÇ ÊÓßäæåä ÇáÛÑÝ ¡ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ ¡ æÚáãæåä ÇáãÛÒá æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ

  • Source:
  • Al-Bayhaqee, Sunan Al-Bayhaqee, vol. 2, pg. 477
    Grading:
  • Al-Bayhaqee said the Isnad is Munkar

Al-Albaani has discussed this hadeeth and it's authenticity extensively in his book Silsalah aHaadeeth Al-Da`eefah wa Al-MawDoo`ah, vol. 5, pg. 30, hadeeth # 2017. He said the hadeeth is mawDoo` (Fabricated).

(Taken from my personal copy of Al-Albaani's Silsalah aHaadeeth Al-Da`eefah wa Al-MawDoo`ah, vol. 5, pg. 30, hadeeth # 2017)

(salam)

They really do not have a choice with this hadith do they? They have to call it fabricated, if this hadith was made legitimate, one would find it incredibly hard to defend the whole notion of following the sunnah through such means, let alone defend the religion of Islam.

My question to you is, since you would definitely care more than I do, do they have the appropriate reasons to deem this hadith fabricated? Are you convinced of their justification? Personally, I feel a lot of such hadiths which would naturally make people go : O are just deemed fabricated to avoid embarrassment and stop people from questioning the very core elements of our religious framework, but do enlighten me.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Al-Sistani was asked about this hadeeth, and Al-Sistani's response was that the "sanad (of the hadeeth) is not established (سنده غير معتبر) . Then he says that it goes against the well known accepted hadeeth of seeking knowledge is upon every Muslim.

Question:

4 - لا تنزلوا نساءكم الغرف ولا تعلموهن الكتابة ولا تعلموهن سورة يوسف وعلموهن المغزل وسورة النور . ( هذا حديث جدا غريب وهل فعلا يعقل عدم تعليمهن الكتابة وفي حديث آخر يقول العلم فريضة على كل مسلم ومسلمة وما المقصود من عدم انزالهن الغرف وعدم تعليمهن سورة يوسف )

Answer:

سنده غير معتبر ولعل هذه أوامر تخص الوضع الاجتماعي في ذلك الزمان والمكان والحديث متصل إلى الرسول - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - وما كان المجتمع آنذاك بحاجة إلى تعلم الكتابة وتعميمه حتى للنساء ولعله كان موجبا لبعض المفاسد وهكذا سائر ما ورد فيه .

  • Source:
  • Al-Sistani, Al-Istiftaa'aat, pg. 576, question # 2284, part #4 of the question.

My question to you is, since you would definitely care more than I do, do they have the appropriate reasons to deem this hadith fabricated? Are you convinced of their justification? Personally, I feel a lot of such hadiths which would naturally make people go : O are just deemed fabricated to avoid embarrassment and stop people from questioning the very core elements of our religious framework, but do enlighten me.

I don't think you quite got the reason why I took this hadeeth out from the Sunnis books. I don't care what the Sunnis books say, but a form of rejecting a hadeeth in Shee`ah islaam is to see what the mukhaalif / `aamah (i.e. sunnis) have in their books, and compare it with our books and reject what is necessary. Seeing as since there is a Sunnis person in the chain, and this hadeeth is found in sunnis books, there could be a reason to reject it. The other chain of narrators is da`eef as well.

And their justification for calling this hadeeth a fabrication seems letigimate, there are problems in the isnaad of this hadeeth. In one chain there is a guy named Muhammad bin Ibraaheem Al-Shaamee and he is said to be a fabricator. And in another chain there is a guy named `Abd Al-Wahhaab bin Al-Dahhaak and he is said to be matrook (abandoned).

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Al-Sistani was asked about this hadeeth, and Al-Sistani's response was that the "sanad (of the hadeeth) is not established (ÓäÏå ÛíÑ ãÚÊÈÑ) . Then he says that it goes against the well known accepted hadeeth of seeking knowledge is upon every Muslim.

(wasalam)

Wow!!! Wow!!! Wow!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

Did Ayatollah Syed al Sistani (ra) really say this or am I dreaming??!!!!! I mean I'm seriously surprised that on one hand he's declaring the chain of this hadith problematic but on the other hand is using the "well known accepted" hadith of seeking knowledge being an obligation upon every muslim as a proof. Fact of the matter is that that hadith regarding seeking of knowledge being upon every muslim, is itself majhool and da'eef! I'd posted it in another thread, I'll quote it here again.

Kafi

ÃÎÈÑäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä åÔÇã [Úä ÃÈíå] Úä ÇáÍÓä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓíä ÇáÝÇÑÓí¡ Úä ÚÈÏÇáÑÍãä Èä ÒíÏ¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá:

ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ØáÈ ÇáÚáã ÝÑíÖÉ Úáì ßá ãÓáã¡ ÃáÇ Åä Çááå íÍÈ ÈÛÇÉ ÇáÚáã

.....................................Prophet(PBUH) said: Seeking of knowledge is obligatory on every muslim, not but Allah (swt) loves those who seek knowledge.

Grading:

Majlisi (in miratul uqul): ãÌåæá

Unknown

Bahbudi: ÖÚíÝ

Weak

I don't think you quite got the reason why I took this hadeeth out from the Sunnis books. I don't care what the Sunnis books say, but a form of rejecting a hadeeth in Shee`ah islaam is to see what the mukhaalif / `aamah (i.e. sunnis) have in their books, and compare it with our books and reject what is necessary. Seeing as since there is a Sunnis person in the chain, and this hadeeth is found in sunnis books, there could be a reason to reject it. The other chain of narrators is da`eef as well.

And their justification for calling this hadeeth a fabrication seems letigimate, there are problems in the isnaad of this hadeeth. In one chain there is a guy named Muhammad bin Ibraaheem Al-Shaamee and he is said to be a fabricator. And in another chain there is a guy named `Abd Al-Wahhaab bin Al-Dahhaak and he is said to be matrook (abandoned).

Considering our ahadith which tell us about going against the aama, such as the maqboola of Hunzala, they instruct abandoning those ahadith which are popular among the aama and especially among their ulama/fuqaha. But here, as your post shows, this hadith is not even EXACTLY present in sunni sources. I mean the sunni hadith doesn't mention not teaching women surah al Yusuf. Secondly, the sunni hadith is present in only their secondary/lesser hadith sources and as you yourself showed, is considered mawdoo by their ulama.

On the other hand we have this hadith in our primary books such as kafi and al faqih, and again, since Shaikh Sadooq included those ahadith in al Faqih which he considered sahih, a hujja, on which he believed in and by which he would give fatawa; therefore I would say a giant such as Shaikh Sadooq did believe in this hadith as well as those (not just akhbari) great scholars who believed in the high reliability of al faqih.

So therefore I don't consider this argument alone about the hadith being present in sunni books a valid one.

Personally, I feel a lot of such hadiths which would naturally make people go : O are just deemed fabricated to avoid embarrassment and stop people from questioning the very core elements of our religious framework

You hit the nail on the spot. Although the sanad of this hadith isn't perfect, with Ismail b. Ziyad being an aami (which in itself is not good enough ground to outright reject it), but nonetheless the primary reason for rejecting the hadith is political correctness and feminism.

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(wasalam)

Wow!!! Wow!!! Wow!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

Did Ayatollah Syed al Sistani (ra) really say this or am I dreaming??!!!!! I mean I'm seriously surprised that on one hand he's declaring the chain of this hadith problematic but on the other hand is using the "well known accepted" hadith of seeking knowledge being an obligation upon every muslim as a proof. Fact of the matter is that that hadith regarding seeking of knowledge being upon every muslim, is itself majhool and da'eef! I'd posted it in another thread, I'll quote it here again.

Considering our ahadith which tell us about going against the aama, such as the maqboola of Hunzala, they instruct abandoning those ahadith which are popular among the aama and especially among their ulama/fuqaha. But here, as your post shows, this hadith is not even EXACTLY present in sunni sources. I mean the sunni hadith doesn't mention not teaching women surah al Yusuf. Secondly, the sunni hadith is present in only their secondary/lesser hadith sources and as you yourself showed, is considered mawdoo by their ulama.

On the other hand we have this hadith in our primary books such as kafi and al faqih, and again, since Shaikh Sadooq included those ahadith in al Faqih which he considered sahih, a hujja, on which he believed in and by which he would give fatawa; therefore I would say a giant such as Shaikh Sadooq did believe in this hadith as well as those (not just akhbari) great scholars who believed in the high reliability of al faqih.

So therefore I don't consider this argument alone about the hadith being present in sunni books a valid one.

You hit the nail on the spot. Although the sanad of this hadith isn't perfect, with Ismail b. Ziyad being an aami (which in itself is not good enough ground to outright reject it), but nonetheless the primary reason for rejecting the hadith is political correctness and feminism.

Salam bro,

I was Reading the history and found out that any hadees attributed to rasool Allah saww was always taken to later aimma asws to confirm it's authority. The types of narrators mentioned by imam Ali asws in nahjulbalagha also leads to the same conclusion. So, it is imperative that we search for clarification by imams asws regarding this hadees by gathering data on ahadees related to this subject. Even this hadees in question says teach Quran except sura yusuf and according to many ahadees every knowledge is in Quran so ahadees are also needed to understand it and sharia fariyya would also come under, and amr/wilaya of ahlulbayth a.s is one condition common to both men in women. And even for men the necessary knowledge is what is stated by masoomeen asws and whatever else is extra and not necessary for religion.

After business/agriculture/sheep rearing the next best profession For men is tailoring, and so on. For women the mentioned ones in the hadees could be best for taking care of family well and they can have many more meaning and I discussed few earlier on. Someone might say how he learns agriculture, sheep rearing, tailoring, etc and the answer is there are many ahadees and duas on this subject.

Finally, even if someone thinks it is unacceptable then leave it as it is. Why rejecting it!

Ya Ali Madad

And it is not a prohibition to go out of home but has some conditions which I again discussed earlier in the thread.

The hadees of umar bin hanzala is not perfect in rijal and I am not sure but I think it is khabar wahid(someone can correct me if I am wrong). Somehow, anything which the ulema like becomes maqbool. There are ahadees related to it but not in full as is hadees umar ibn hanzala's and rejecting aama is last stage in that one.

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(wasalam)

Perhaps it's the same reason why they don't do tahannuk with their amama and why they still collect khums.

Read this: The amama of scholars

Also read this: Paying khums to Marja, obligatory?

(salam)

I just wanted to say that encase you have not noticed yet, that paying Khums is part of "Furoo3 Aldeen", which in English translates to " roots of religion" i.e foundations! So if your trying to say that Paying Khums is not obligatory, then you have deleted one of the foundations of religion, maybe you dont have to pay when you join the Akhbari sector i.e save money, but Khums goes to needy and poor people, practiced even by Ahlul bayt?

Let me remind you of Furoo3 aldeen that exist in the Shia School of thought! They are

1) Alsallah

2) Alsawm

3) Alzakah

4) Alhajj

5) **Al-khums**

6) Aljihad fe Sabeel Allah

7) Alamir bil ma'roof

8) Alnahee 'an almunkar

9) Albughith li a3daa Allah

10) Almahabba li awliya Allah

As for the hadeeth you pasted regarding *khums" let me remind you that you have taken it out of context to suit the "Akhbari" ideologies, you tried mixing oil and water together without any emulsion!!

As for the brother calling people who dont believe in how a hadeeth can be said like that and calling them "Kafar" i suggest you get your acts right and learn the meaning of the word before you use it!, also the ahadeeth you right, do provide evidence to where they are from.

As for the hadeeth of women not learning, , if it is to be taken literally and has constant not dynamic timing, then it destroys Islam completely, equality in religion is a MUST!, Hence also if this is to be taken literally without having a specific time and place, then it would directly contradict what the prophet of Islam Mohammad (pbuh) said:

"To acquire knowledge is binding upon all Muslims, whether male or female." ( A Brief History of the Fourteen Infallibles, Ansariyan Publications: Iran.)

Also, Imam Ali (a.s) said:

"Knowledge and wisdom are really the privilege of a faithful Muslim. If you have lost them, get them back even though you may have to get them from the apostates." (Nahjul Balagha)

etc. etc. etc. So for the people who copy and paste ahadeeth with their intention of causing confusion among the readers, how about you interpret the scope of the hadeeth!

(wasalam)

Edited by Cosmos

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Al-Sistani was asked about this hadeeth, and Al-Sistani's response was that the "sanad (of the hadeeth) is not established (ÓäÏå ÛíÑ ãÚÊÈÑ) . Then he says that it goes against the well known accepted hadeeth of seeking knowledge is upon every Muslim.

Question:

4 - áÇ ÊäÒáæÇ äÓÇÁßã ÇáÛÑÝ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÓæÑÉ íæÓÝ æÚáãæåä ÇáãÛÒá æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ . ( åÐÇ ÍÏíË ÌÏÇ ÛÑíÈ æåá ÝÚáÇ íÚÞá ÚÏã ÊÚáíãåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æÝí ÍÏíË ÂÎÑ íÞæá ÇáÚáã ÝÑíÖÉ Úáì ßá ãÓáã æãÓáãÉ æãÇ ÇáãÞÕæÏ ãä ÚÏã ÇäÒÇáåä ÇáÛÑÝ æÚÏã ÊÚáíãåä ÓæÑÉ íæÓÝ )

Answer:

ÓäÏå ÛíÑ ãÚÊÈÑ æáÚá åÐå ÃæÇãÑ ÊÎÕ ÇáæÖÚ ÇáÇÌÊãÇÚí Ýí Ðáß ÇáÒãÇä æÇáãßÇä æÇáÍÏíË ãÊÕá Åáì ÇáÑÓæá - Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã - æãÇ ßÇä ÇáãÌÊãÚ ÂäÐÇß ÈÍÇÌÉ Åáì ÊÚáã ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æÊÚãíãå ÍÊì ááäÓÇÁ æáÚáå ßÇä ãæÌÈÇ áÈÚÖ ÇáãÝÇÓÏ æåßÐÇ ÓÇÆÑ ãÇ æÑÏ Ýíå .

  • Source:
  • Al-Sistani, Al-Istiftaa'aat, pg. 576, question # 2284, part #4 of the question.

Nader, Thank you!

I am definitely going with al-Sistani and not with those who take it upon themselves to interpret the religion.

sister I think u did not read the previous reply to u. Writing may refer to Maintaining accounts as there is another hadees that men take care of account or may refer to issuing judgments. And stepping outside could carry conditions such as permission of wali(father/husband), not wearing transparent dress and/or heavy perfume and/or without hijab and/or unreliable or non mahram men or praying in masjid as we have ahadees regarding these issue. To me it is an unclear hadees but why people want to make fun of it or deny it is what I can't understand.

Ya Ali Madad

The hadeeth doesn’t state what you are claiming. Either state the hadeeth with the exception or don’t quote the hadeeth. Try telling this to your Akhbari buddy.

For me, this discussion is over since I know exactly where my marja stands on this issue.

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I am definitely going with al-Sistani and not with those who take it upon themselves to interpret the religion.

(salam)

But you are. Read (or rather reread, because I'm sure you read it but decided to ignore it) post# 57.

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For me, this discussion is over since I know exactly where my marja stands on this issue.

Except that Nader only mentioned the first part of Sistani's response (which is that the sanad is not mu`tabar, which we already knew anyway) and the part about is supposedly contradicting the hadith about the obligation of seeking knowledge is from the questioner, it's not in the response itself. What follows after the red is trying to understand what the narration might mean anyway (i.e. not outright rejecting it). He says that perhaps it was specific to that time period and place connected to the Messenger (pbuh), that during his time there wasn't a need for the knowledge of writing to be generalized to the point of including women, and that's it possible it could bring about corruptions and likewise the rest of what is mentioned in the riwayat.

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(salam)

You mean hadeeth having a time context and applicable only on certain time/period? I stated that in my earlier post when I said

But reading and writing is no longer a specialized skill. Your explanation might be reasonable (about people profession being scribes) but it is no longer relevant in today's age. Nowadays, most people don't even have secretaries to do their typing.

The hadeeth doesn't clearly state that the writing here means done by the scribes. Bhooka is using the word writing in sense of writing (using a pen).

Even if they are not related, what is really the problem with learning how to write? What is so offensive with women learning how to write? I don't understand why women learning how to write is threatening to Islam.

Have you tried telling Bhooka about hadeeth having a context and time period? He seems to copy+paste that hadeeth all the time without providing any context whatsoever.

Edited by Zareen

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Have you tried telling Bhooka about hadeeth having a context and time period? He seems to copy+paste that hadeeth all the time without providing any context whatsoever.

To be fair, the response is a bit on the speculative side as the hadith doesn't say that it's specific to a time period. The counter response would be if it was specific to the time of the Messenger (pbuh), why then (again, if it is actually authentic) would the Imam (as) have been teaching it around a hundred years later?

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Fair enough, but why does it have to contradict with other hadeeths (as said by al-Sistani)?

Again, that wasn't Sistani saying it's contradicting other hadiths and his response does not affirm that it does. It was whoever was asking the question in the initial istifta.

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(salam)

You mean hadeeth having a time context and applicable only on certain time/period? I stated that in my earlier post when I said

Have you tried telling Bhooka about hadeeth having a context and time period? He seems to copy+paste that hadeeth all the time without providing any context whatsoever.

(wasalam)

Just to let you know, Istihsan and Maslaha (tools which sunnis use to twist religion to suit the masses) have no place in Imami shiaism.

Fair enough, but why does it have to contradict with other hadeeths (as said by al-Sistani)?

Perhaps if he'd studied fiqh (cuz as per you guys, they "spend their whole lives studying fiqh"), then he'll know that the specific hadith qualifies the general one. There's no contradiction unless people want to make one.

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Again, that wasn't Sistani saying it's contradicting other hadiths and his response does not affirm that it does. It was whoever was asking the question in the initial istifta.

Okay, that brings to this question now.

Do you know of scholars who forbid women from writing, read surah Yusuf or leaving the house/room?

I have not heard of any scholars forbidding women to write, read surah Yusuf or step out from the room.

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Okay, that brings to this question now.

Do you know of scholars who forbid women from writing, read surah Yusuf or leaving the house/room?

Shaikh Sadooq.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Wow!!! Wow!!! Wow!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!

Did Ayatollah Syed al Sistani (ra) really say this or am I dreaming??!!!!! I mean I'm seriously surprised that on one hand he's declaring the chain of this hadith problematic but on the other hand is using the "well known accepted" hadith of seeking knowledge being an obligation upon every muslim as a proof. Fact of the matter is that that hadith regarding seeking of knowledge being upon every muslim, is itself majhool and da'eef! I'd posted it in another thread, I'll quote it here again.

Brother, you do realize that this hadeeth has been mentioned an umpteen number of times within larger aHaadeeth right? Yes, the sanad of this particular hadeeth that just say "Seeking knowledge is farD upon every Muslim" might be weak, but if you were to look through many other aHaadeeth this Hadeeth has been mentioned in much larger hadeeth through various different asaaneed. So by you just going to that one hadeeth, you failed to see that this hadeeth has been mentioned many many times by our Imaams through an umpteen different asaaneed.

Except that Nader only mentioned the first part of Sistani's response (which is that the sanad is not mu`tabar, which we already knew anyway) and the part about is supposedly contradicting the hadith about the obligation of seeking knowledge is from the questioner, it's not in the response itself. What follows after the red is trying to understand what the narration might mean anyway (i.e. not outright rejecting it). He says that perhaps it was specific to that time period and place connected to the Messenger (pbuh), that during his time there wasn't a need for the knowledge of writing to be generalized to the point of including women, and that's it possible it could bring about corruptions and likewise the rest of what is mentioned in the riwayat.

Yes, I am sorry for not pointing that out earlier. It was the Questioner who brought out the hadeeth about seeking knowledge is farD upon every Muslim, not Al-Sistani.

Although, I am not exactly feeling Al-Sistani's response to this question. I believe him pointing out the `Aami narrator (Ismaa`eel bin Abee Ziyaad Al-Sakoonee) in this hadeeth, and that it is found in Sunni books would've been a better approach. Also him mentioning the other isnaad that talks about women not writing has a marfoo` (raised) isnaad meaning there could be a number of people missing from the chain. Therefore, the only connected chain we have is a Sunni chain, then by the principle of rejecting the `Aamah/Mukhaalifeen (i.e. Sunnis), we can reject this hadeeth.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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