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Son Of Adam

Don't Teach Your Women?

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(salam)

I came across this narration from Bhooka_bhairiya's blog:

وروى إسماعيل بن أبي زياد عن جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه عليهما السلام عن آبائه عليهم السلام قال: (قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله: لا تنزلوا نساء‌كم الغرف ولا تعلموهن الكتابة، ولا تعلموهن سورة يوسف، وعلموهن المغزل وسورة النور

And it's narrated from Isma'il b. Abi Ziyad from Ja'far b. Muhammad (as) from his (as) father (as) from his forefathers (as): Rasool Allah (pbuh) said: Don't let your women come down the room and don't teach them to write, and don't teach them surah al Yusuf, and make them learn the spindle (to do spinning/sewing/weaving on it) and surah al Noor.

-page 442, hadith 4535: http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/faqih-3/a144.htm

how is this part of islam? the hadith has no explanation..

wa salam

Edited by Son Of Adam

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(salam)

Funny narration because that would make Rasulullah a hypocrit (astaghfirullah)... Sayyeda Fatima (as) was one of the first women to write and read the quran in the religion of Islam. I can't reason with this hadeeth at all.

(wasalam)

Edited by YaSeddiqah

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(salam)

We are having a discussion about this hadeeth here

I have not heard of any scholars forbidding women to write, read surah Yusuf or step out from the room.

And learning spindle is pretty much useless nowadays since we get our clothing from the store (and most of us don't make our own fabric from threads).

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(salam)

Just to set things into perspective, here's the link to that post:

Women scholars, a good thing?

I would advise everyone to read the post on the link first because I've already answered the criticisms left by visitors in their comments by replying to their comments. So again, I would advise everyone to read the post and also go through the comments because all the 'usual' arguments have already been answered.

As for the authenticity and context of this hadith, please read this about the book from which I've quoted this hadith:

Authenticity of the ahadith in Man La Yahdhuruhul Faqih

Lastly, I apologize to any females who felt offended by my post, but the negative attitude of people forced me to post it.

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(salam)

habibi i read the comments on your blog and it doesn't answer anything accept youve said that sheikh saduq mentioned it in his book and said its authentic and gave a fatwa about it. Maybe in your world you wouldn't want to teach a women how to write, but not in mine.

wa salam

Edited by Son Of Adam

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I don't understand why people want to reject ahadees calling it weird, baseless what not.

Let us see what knowledge is according to rasool Allah saww

1. Mohkam ayat of Quran.

2. Ahadees e masoom which includes ilm e Tibb(medicine)

and what we consider knowledge:

1. Politics.

2. Theories against Islamic teachings.

3. Learning Disputing.

4. And many other types which help only for this world.

Imam Sadiq asws said: Teach you women fadail of Ali asws that it would protect them.

Do u guys think That can anything for a guy or a girl be greater than fadail of Ali asws?

Not teaching Reading and writing may have many meanings within. And also does spinning and weaving. So don't become a kafir by rejecting ahadees.

Ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

Not teaching Reading and writing may have many meanings within. And also does spinning and weaving. So don't become a kafir by rejecting ahadees.

Can you shed more lights into what other meaning of reading and writing should we understand here. What is the proper context of the word reading and writing?

Why doesn’t your colleague Bhooka understand the esoteric meaning behind the hadeeth? He takes everything in literal sense, so to him, it is perfectly acceptable to act upon hadeeth that promote illiteracy, locking women up and abandoning a Quranic surah.

BTW, we are not rejecting hadeeths. We are questioning why a great majority of the scholars and Muslims have abandoned the tradition of keeping women locked in her home and keeping her illiterate.

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(salam)

We are questioning why a great majority of the scholars and Muslims have abandoned the tradition of keeping women locked in her home and keeping her illiterate.

(wasalam)

Perhaps it's the same reason why they don't do tahannuk with their amama and why they still collect khums.

Read this: The amama of scholars

Also read this: Paying khums to Marja, obligatory?

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Can you shed more lights into what other meaning of reading and writing should we understand here. What is the proper context of the word reading and writing?

Just one point on that, it doesn't say (necessarily) about reading in that part. It says writing, something that back then would have more often been a specialized skill (hence you'd have people whom that was their profession). And whether one agrees with this or not, the two though related are not the same, and it'd be one thing to say a woman shouldn't know how to read, and another saying she should know about writing.

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Just one point on that, it doesn't say (necessarily) about reading in that part. It says writing, something that back then would have more often been a specialized skill (hence you'd have people whom that was their profession). And whether one agrees with this or not, the two though related are not the same, and it'd be one thing to say a woman shouldn't know how to read, and another saying she should know about writing.

Yes! The difference between reading and writing is crystal clear and I've mentioned this point in other threads as well but some (in fact most) people are just too stubborn to listen/understand anything.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The Holy Prophet SA said:

Whoever teaches his knowledge (to others), will receive the reward of the one who acts upon it, with the doer's reward not reduced.

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahj-al-fasahah-height-of-rhetoric/w

This holy saying of the Prophet SA ^did not say Men who teach their knowledge to men. It says: Whoever teaches to others. All people, including women.

The family and friends of the female Ayatollah Mrs. Zohreh Sefati would NOT be happy to see her photograph on Bhooka_Bhairiya's anti-education blog post.

sefati.jpg

Article on the life of the female Ayatollah Mrs. Zohreh Sefati: http://www.islamicinsights.com/religion/religion/exemplary-shia-women-madam-zohreh-sefati.html

She is not alone. hawzahnews.ir has a news story, I saw it on November 21, 2010, that says 30,000 (thirty thousand) women are hawzah students.

1389/08/30

http://www.hawzahnews.ir/index.aspx?siteid=6&pageid=1973&newsview=69450

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On 3/1/2011 at 10:11 AM, Hameedeh said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

The Holy Prophet SA said:

Whoever teaches his knowledge (to others), will receive the reward of the one who acts upon it, with the doer's reward not reduced.

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahj-al-fasahah-height-of-rhetoric/w

This holy saying of the Prophet SA ^did not say Men who teach their knowledge to men. It says: Whoever teaches to others. All people, including women.

Does learning knowledge mean one should be learning everything? Doesn't it rather make more sense to say that different people should concentrate on what is more relevant to them? And particularly where you're talking about a context where much/most learning was passed on orally anyway, knowing the art of writing (again, reading is not the issue here and writing was a specialized skill to the point of it being a trade) is more of a secondary issue.

Quote

She is not alone. hawzahnews.ir has a news story, I saw it on November 21, 2010, that says 30,000 (thirty thousand) women are hawzah students.

1389/08/30

http://www.hawzahnews.ir/index.aspx?siteid=6&pageid=1973&newsview=69450

And out of those "30,000" (if true, which I highly doubt), how many of those become mujtahida?

On 3/1/2011 at 10:20 AM, Sadiq M... said:

Shocking. I don't know whether to take this thread seriously or not.

Wishing things in our books to go away doesn't make them disappear. So better to deal head on with them, try to understand what they might mean rather than acting emotionally and getting mad at the person who is simply reporting them.

I say that without actually stating that I actually believe in the authenticity of this narration. It's very similar to a Sunni narration, and the main narrator of it (as-Sakuni) in this chain was apparently himself an `Aammi (Sunni), and it seems to me I've noticed he would tend to report things that sound pretty similar to what you might find in their books. So, from that angle there would be a question mark for me. However, if it is authentic, I don't want to damn myself by rejecting and even mocking the words of our Imam (as), and so it's better to try to find a way of explaining and understanding what it could mean rather than give a knee jerk reaction and landing oneself into serious trouble. If you can't even do that, then the best for you to do is to do tawaqquf at it (halting), not explicitly rejecting it (and certainly not mocking it) or explicitly accepting it, but to put it to the side, admit you can't grasp this one and don't know the truth of it, and not worry oneself over it.

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Just one point on that, it doesn't say (necessarily) about reading in that part. It says writing, something that back then would have more often been a specialized skill (hence you'd have people whom that was their profession).

But reading and writing is no longer a specialized skill. Your explanation might be reasonable (about people profession being scribes) but it is no longer relevant in today's age. Nowadays, most people don't even have secretaries to do their typing.

The hadeeth doesn't clearly state that the writing here means done by the scribes. Bhooka is using the word writing in sense of writing (using a pen).

And whether one agrees with this or not, the two though related are not the same, and it'd be one thing to say a woman shouldn't know how to read, and another saying she should know about writing.

Even if they are not related, what is really the problem with learning how to write? What is so offensive with women learning how to write? I don't understand why women learning how to write is threatening to Islam.

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Does learning knowledge mean one should be learning everything? Doesn't it rather make more sense to say that different people should concentrate on what is more relevant to them? And particularly where you're talking about a context where much/most learning was passed on orally anyway, knowing the art of writing (again, reading is not the issue here and writing was a specialized skill to the point of it being a trade) is more of a secondary issue.

But as Zareen points out above, writing is no longer restricted as a skill to a small class of tradesmen. It is a general, virtually universal skill in developed nations, that, for the time being at least, is a basic competency required to navigate society. As a result, a narration based on a reality in which writing was a limited trade has no bearing on a reality in which it is a universal skill.

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I say that without actually stating that I actually believe in the authenticity of this narration. It's very similar to a Sunni narration, and the main narrator of it (as-Sakuni) in this chain was apparently himself an `Aammi (Sunni), and it seems to me I've noticed he would tend to report things that sound pretty similar to what you might find in their books.

Although what you said is true, but even then it's not good enough grounds to outright reject (of course, I know you're not doing that) it cuz the narrator was an aami.

Here's what Majlisi wrote in Miratul uqul in explanation of ÈÇÈ ÝíãÇ ÌÇÁ Ãä ÍÏíËåã ÕÚÈ ãÓÊÕÚÈþ/Imam(as) ahadith being difficult's chapter.

æ Ñæì ÇáÕÏæÞ Ýí ÇáÚáá ÈÅÓäÇÏå ÇáÕÍíÍ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ Úä ÃÍÏåãÇ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá:

áÇ ÊßÐÈæÇ ÈÍÏíË ÃÊÇßã Èå ãÑÌìþÁ æ áÇ ÞÏÑí æ áÇ ÎÇÑÌí äÓÈå ÅáíäÇ¡ ÝÅäßã áÇ ÊÏÑæä áÚáå ÔíþÁ ãä ÇáÍÞ ÝÊßÐÈæÇ Çááå ÚÒ æ Ìá ÝæÞ ÚÑÔå

.......Imam(as) said: "Don't reject hadith from murji, qadari, kharji which he narrates attributing to us for you don't know it may contain the truth and then you will be rejecting Allah(Allah's command)."

http://gadir.free.fr/Ar/Ehlibeyt/kutub2/Mirat_ul_Ukul/004.htm (page 314)

The hadith in illal ul sharai can be found here (page 395):

ÃÈí ÑÍãå Çááå ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇÓãÇÚíá Èä ÈÒíÚ¡ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ÈÔíÑ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÍÕíä¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ¡ Úä ÃÍÏåãÇ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇáæÇ: áÇ ÊßÐÈæÇ ÈÍÏíË ÃÊÇßã Èå ãÑÌÆí æáÇ ÞÏÑí æáÇ ÎÇÑÌí äÓÈå ÇáíäÇ¡ ÝÇäßã áÇ ÊÏÑæä áÚáå ÔÆ ãä ÇáÍÞ ÝÊßÐÈæÇ Çááå ÚÒæÌá ÝæÞ ÚÑÔå

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m012/09/no0996.html

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Wishing things in our books to go away doesn't make them disappear. So better to deal head on with them, try to understand what they might mean rather than acting emotionally and getting mad at the person who is simply reporting them.

I don't have an issue with the hadith, I have an issue with his interpretation of it.

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I've noticed he would tend to report things that sound pretty similar to what you might find in their books. So, from that angle there would be a question mark for me.

But AFAIK mainstream sunni books such as sihah sitta, or at least the sahihain, don't contain such stuff and their(aama) ulama/fuqaha do not believe in such stuff so it isn't necessarily (at least these days) a sunni thing. In fact it's the sunnis who are henpecked feminists cuz their whole religion came down to them through a woman, ayesha and their foremost muhaditheen such as sufyan Thawri were boot lickers of women such as Rabia. Others such as ibn hajar also studied under women muhaditheen.

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But AFAIK mainstream sunni books such as sihah sitta, or at least the sahihain, don't contain such stuff and their(aama) ulama/fuqaha do not believe in such stuff so it isn't necessarily (at least these days) a sunni thing. In fact it's the sunnis who are henpecked feminists cuz their whole religion came down to them through a woman, ayesha and their foremost muhaditheen such as sufyan Thawri were boot lickers of women such as Rabia. Others such as ibn hajar also studied under women muhaditheen.

Oh just because you won't hear a number of them saying it much nowadays, doesn't mean it's not there. As to this one in particular, one place you can find it (very close to it that is) is in Kanz al-`Ummal saying it was narrated by `A'isha:

(44991 -) لا تنزلوهن في الغرف : ولا تعلموهن الكتابة يعني النساء ، وعلموهن الغزل وسورة النور (ك ، هب - عن عائشة

But reading and writing is no longer a specialized skill. Your explanation might be reasonable (about people profession being scribes) but it is no longer relevant in today's age. Nowadays, most people don't even have secretaries to do their typing.

The hadeeth doesn't clearly state that the writing here means done by the scribes. Bhooka is using the word writing in sense of writing (using a pen).

You could interpret the hadith as prohibition, or, you could interpret it as being upon karahat/recommendation.

Even if they are not related, what is really the problem with learning how to write? What is so offensive with women learning how to write? I don't understand why women learning how to write is threatening to Islam.

Much of the Islamic values in regards to gender roles seems very much to be that women should largely live their lives in the privacy of their homes, not being very much on the public stage and engaged in very open activities, that the latter is more the domain of the men in a society. (Please don't cite extreme examples where pious women had to do something on the outside as a matter of urgency or compulsion, look at how they'd more carry out their day to day lives) Even look at hijab and its own context, as well as the interdiction of women holding certain positions (e.g. being judges, leading jama`a salat (at least for men, possibly for women when it is a fard salat (there's ikhtilaf on that one), etc) So the act of writing (unlike say reading) is something you do in correspondence with the outside, as well as possibly the connections I mentioned with it being a trade skill back then. Looking at the message of this narration (whether authentic or not, which myself I'm not convinced on either way) it seems to be emphasizing this notion, that women should lead their lives on the inside, removed from activities that require more direction interaction with the outside world, spending her time on learning and engaging in things that would be more beneficial to that. So for example the art of writing would not be deemed appropriate to that end, but spinning (something useful you can do inside the home) would be.

And please don't shoot the messenger here! I'm just offering the above in trying to understand how this narration might be explained, again not stating my personal views and dispositions (which are irrelevant anyway)

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Looking at a sole hadith and once classes as Sahih, adopting it, with no sense of acknowledging its cultural implications and why, when and how it was said.

And what have you studied of Akhbari legal works to be able to make such a broad generalization?

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And what have you studied of Akhbari legal works to be able to make such a broad generalization?

A trillion articles from al-islam.org and a few thousand lectures of Ammar Nakshwani/rajabali etc :!!!:

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(salam)

What I am observing here (and this is purely my observation)

Most of us are not doing what is mentioned in the hadeeths (locking women in rooms, forbid the learning of writing and spinning/weaving clothing). The marajas themselves have not forbidden women from all the activity that is mentioned in the hadeeth (“not recommended” activities).

So, basically, we have a hadeeth that no one is acting upon? No one except people who are claiming to be non-Usooli (like Bhooka).

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(salam)

So, basically, we have hadeeth that no one is acting upon?

(wasalam)

As they say, rather than trying to change others, one should try to change him/herself. Why don't you start following it? (I REALLY hope you don't take this as an insult because that IS what the hadith says). Besides as per ahadith, even if we carry a recommended act upon the knowledge that it's from the sunnah, then even if it's not we'll get the reward (but unfortunately these ahadith are twisted to justify aliun waliullah in adhan, matam, juloos, nad e ali etc).

The marajas themselves have not forbidden women from all the activity that is mentioned in the hadeeth (“not recommended” activities).

Perhaps you need to realize that marj'i aren't perfect and to put it bluntly, they don't follow Islam perfectly. Period. They'll recommend aliun waliullah in adhan and iqamah, take khums, promote matam,(all things which aren't mentioned in ahadith) but when it comes to these ahadith they'll ignore them just to remain popular. These are the guys who would always wear amama but would never do tahannuk, even while praying.

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I mean, I know many people that take one hadith and follow it blindly. Since akhbaris, most of them are ulama-shy and think all scholars are corrupt, besides a few, they choose to do their own research and rely heavily on books such as Kafi and gradings by well respected scholars. They're more of a if I see the hadith I believe in it rather than trusting upon a scholar or a group of scholars to come up with a justified solution. There is an ego problem with this attitude and a hidden disrespect to scholars.

No matter how many hadiths I may read on one subject, I will still follow a scholar, since there can always be the chance of me missing something, unless the scholar himself states, such as maraja do that in some cases, one can adopt a ruling if they are 100% certain of it.

For this particular conversation of not letting woman read/write I say:

96:1 Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-

Iqra/ bi-ismi rabbika allathee khalaqa

96:2 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

Khalaqa al-insana min AAalaqin

96:3 Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-

Iqra/ warabbuka al-akramu

96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-

Allathee AAallama bialqalami

96:5 Taught man that which he knew not.

AAallama al-insana ma lamyaAAlam

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For this particular conversation of not letting woman read/write I say:

96:1 Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-

Iqra/ bi-ismi rabbika allathee khalaqa

96:2 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

Khalaqa al-insana min AAalaqin

96:3 Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-

Iqra/ warabbuka al-akramu

96:4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-

Allathee AAallama bialqalami

96:5 Taught man that which he knew not.

AAallama al-insana ma lamyaAAlam

businessman-banging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

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Why don't you start following it? (I REALLY hope you don't take this as an insult because that IS what the hadith says). Besides as per ahadith, even if we carry a recommended act upon the knowledge that it's from the sunnah, then even if it's not we'll get the reward (but unfortunately these ahadith are twisted to justify aliun waliullah in adhan, matam, juloos, nad e ali etc).

I think you are aware that I don’t take religious ruling from random folks on Internet. Just because a hadeeth is authentic doesn’t mean I am going to immediately start acting upon it.

As of now, I am not aware of any marajas who forbid women from writing. They also allow women to step out of their home if this doesn’t infringe the right of the husband (see fatwas of the marajas for more detail). As for spinning/weaving your own clothing, I think that is really a personal choice. It is not applicable to me because I get my fabric from departmental store. Also, I don’t believe you can/should skip Surah Yusuf.

Perhaps you need to realize that marj'i aren't perfect and to put it bluntly, they don't follow Islam perfectly. Period. They'll recommend aliun waliullah in adhan and iqamah, take khums, promote matam,(all things which aren't mentioned in ahadith) but when it comes to these ahadith they'll ignore them just to remain popular. These are the guys who would always wear amama but would never do tahannuk, even while praying.

If the marajas are not perfect then neither are you. They derive their fatwas based on their own research. And that is exactly what you are doing here. The only difference is that they have better akhlak and are far knowledgeable than you.

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If the marajas are not perfect then neither are you. They derive their fatwas based on their own research. And that is exactly what you are doing here.

No Sister! No! No! No!

That's NOT what I'm doing. I just posted a hadith as it is. You keep on saying this but please show me where I imposed my 'fatwa'(opinion) anywhere? I always post ahadith. And yes I'm FAR from perfect BUT, to repeat for the umpteen time the hadith posted is from Man la yahdhuruhul faqih(which was compiled for the layperson, in case anyone wants to say it's in code words which only maraji' can decode) in which Shaikh Sadooq (again, one of our greatest scholars ever) collected ahadith which he considered sahih and by which he would give fatawa. Shaikh Sadooq is better than me and dare I say, better than ALL our maraj'i.

BTW, since you yourself admitted that maraji' give fatawa off their 'research' rather than following ahadith, so is that why you do taqlid cuz you know the marja will interpret (twist) the "extremist" ahadith in our books to make it palatable for his muqallids?

The only difference is that they have better akhlak

How do you know? Do we have a marja on SC with whom you can compare my akhlaq? I admit my akhlaq is a bit bad because sometimes I lose my temper (I explained the reason in another thread) and some people post stuff which I don't like. But I'm trying my level best to improve it. Instead of just picking on a few posts in which I displayed bad akhlaq, you should also acknowledge the constant effort I make towards improving it.

and are far knowledgeable than you.

Yes I know they know more than me about falsafa, kalam, mantiq, irfan and other such junk. If they have knowledge about ahadith then why don't they follow it? Or is it that they have the knowledge but DELIBERATELY ignore it? Have your pick. :)

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