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janali

Mantiq (logic)

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YA ALI MADAD

What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

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logic is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, semantics, and computer science. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. It is one kind of critical thinking.

I don't see any problem in studying logic. Neither does religion go against it .In fact Logic is a key to understand many disciplines in academia.Logic has many types , from mathematical to the kind we use in informal argumentation.

so please go ahead with your pursuit of knowledge :D

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YA ALI MADAD

What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

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logic is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, semantics, and computer science. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. It is one kind of critical thinking.

I don't see any problem in studying logic. Neither does religion go against it .In fact Logic is a key to understand many disciplines in academia.Logic has many types , from mathematical to the kind we use in informal argumentation.

so please go ahead with your pursuit of knowledge :D

can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

Well said, they (Imams(as)) didn't.

Kafi

ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì ÞÇá: ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÇáÍÓä ãæÓì (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) Úä ÇáÞíÇÓ ÝÞÇá: ãÇáßã æÇáÞíÇÓ Åä Çááå áÇ íÓÃá ßíÝ ÃÍá æßíÝ ÍÑã.

A group among companions, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from Uthman b.Easa said: (I) asked Abul Hasan Musa(as) answered regarding qiyas(analogies/deductions) so (he(as)) said "What have you got to do with qiyas? Allah(SWT) does not ask how something was halal and how (it was) haram."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/whats-logic-behind-laws.html

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

(1) right now, i do not have any hadees in mind,however i read a hadith by 6th shia imam (sadiq j.j) that your mind is hujjat upon you (to discern) , i will shortly post the exact hadith

(2)nowhere did i say that logic gives you meaning behind everything in islam . no discipline or study is exhaustive enough to encompass all matters of life.therefore studies and their application-ranges are divided. anthropology may tell you 1 aspect of life, history another and maths for instance ,something else.

(3) why do we have to put in everything as being ISlamic or (otherwise ) anti-islamic. Logic has many many applications in the world , such as philosophy , we dont have to neccessarily connect them or get them endorsed by any religious view.

(4) i do not know what you may refer as personal logic.

logic , by definition is impersonal set of axioms , that are used objectively to come to a (Reasonable) ( or in philosophic discourse) truth.

can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

(1) right now, i do not have any hadees in mind,however i read a hadith by 6th shia imam (sadiq j.j) that your mind is hujjat upon you (to discern) , i will shortly post the exact hadith

(2)nowhere did i say that logic gives you meaning behind everything in islam . no discipline or study is exhaustive enough to encompass all matters of life.therefore studies and their application-ranges are divided. anthropology may tell you 1 aspect of life, history another and maths for instance ,something else.

(3) why do we have to put in everything as being ISlamic or (otherwise ) anti-islamic. Logic has many many applications in the world , such as philosophy , we dont have to neccessarily connect them or get them endorsed by any religious view.

(4) i do not know what you may refer as personal logic.

logic , by definition is impersonal set of axioms , that are used objectively to come to a (Reasonable) ( or in philosophic discourse) truth.

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islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

1) Islam has no place for fallible logic.

2) fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah

3) So, worthless it is (logic).

Congratulations, you just used logic to disprove logic !

Your post resembled the Aristotelian structure of logical arguments.

What a contradiction.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even aware of what you say.

-----------

janali

I think you got your answer ^_^

Wasalam

Edited by Imami_ali

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

salam,

even though i do not endorse the Qom seminaries , however, Mantiq is taught there ,amongst other subjects.

following wikipedia entry may help shed some light on this [note- i do not claim wikipedia to be 100% reliable, however, just to give you an idea]

"

Hawza Studies is dedicated to the more traditional subjects only, especially since they are not readily available elsewhere. The traditional subjects taught at a Hawza may be divided into the following

Mantiq (Logic)

Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Jurisprudence)

Fiqh (Jurisprudence)

Tafsir al-Qur'an (Qur'an Exegesis)...... "

maula waris

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

salam

this doesnt prove the inefficacy of Logic as a discipline.However, even to argue [hypothetically]) in an extreme case that logic is forbidden to understand religion.But this doesnt invalidate its basic premise of solving other fundamental problems in non-religious discourses

maula waris

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islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

Kafi

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الوشاء، عن مثنى الحناط، عن أبي بصير قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): ترد علينا أشياء ليس نعرفها في كتاب الله ولا سنة فننظر فيها؟ فقال: لا، أما إنك إن أصبت لم تؤجر، وإن أخطأت كذبت على الله عز وجل

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

One of the reasons we study logic is to avoid making posts like the ones quoted. Brothers, please look up the meaning of the word logic. I am not being sarcastic, I honestly think you may need to reassess your understanding of that word.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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1) Islam has no place for fallible logic.

2) fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah

3) So, worthless it is (logic).

Congratulations, you just used logic to disprove logic !

Your post resembled the Aristotelian structure of logical arguments.

What a contradiction.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even aware of what you say.

-----------

janali

I think you got your answer ^_^

Wasalam

Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

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Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

please cite the hadeeth you just mentioned.if this hadeeth is true does that mean all the knowledhge of the world is baatil? including science, medicine, anthropology and million more ... that makes no sense :squeez:

surely the hadith can be interpreted to mean that only the knowledge (about religious matters) is to be taken by imams (and not others ,who claim to be superior or in competition to imams)in matters such as interpretion of Quran and esoteric meanings.

why cant any1 understand the logic behind your post? plz elaborate and educate us.

you wrote

"and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??"

who is making such claim here?

you wrote ," worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws" , prove it plz.

and you wrote

"Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic." you are contradicting yourself

aristotle is the same person as arastu (called in Urdu)

please, set your facts straight .

maula waris

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Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

Take the word "logic" in your post and replace it with the word "biology", would your post make any sense? Again brother please look up what logic means. You seem to be confusing logic with the limits of human knowledge in fully appreciating the complete reasoning of every Islamic law.

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Logic as in general reason is not a problem (within its proper bounds). Even the logic (as a formal science) of Aristotle and the Greeks (classical logic) might have some usefulness like other sciences, even though it would now largely be considered obsolete by modern logic (i.e. symbolic logic). The question (to me) is what relevance does such an imported science has to do with the study of the religion? Were it relevant and necessary to understanding properly the usool and furu` ad-deen, wouldn't have the A'imma (as) given us some instructions to that effect? When did it start getting taught in the hawza? I've yet to see any reference to such study in the works of such greats as Mufid, Murtada and Tusi and the mutaqaddimeen `ulama.

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Logic as in general reason is not a problem (within its proper bounds). Even the logic (as a formal science) of Aristotle and the Greeks (classical logic) might have some usefulness like other sciences, even though it would now largely be considered obsolete by modern logic (i.e. symbolic logic). The question (to me) is what relevance does such an imported science has to do with the study of the religion? Were it relevant and necessary to understanding properly the usool and furu` ad-deen, wouldn't have the A'imma (as) given us some instructions to that effect? When did it start getting taught in the hawza? I've yet to see any reference to such study in the works of such greats as Mufid, Murtada and Tusi and the mutaqaddimeen `ulama.

Consider how regularly people make logical fallacies. The study of logic would help novice students avoid those fallacies and it would serve as a tool to sharpen the mind (take for example how Ayatullah Tabatabai was advised by one of the hawzah teachers to study maths for this reason). The imams did not have the luxury to teach that sort of science as a separate subject to junior hawzah students. I remember when I was in the first year of university and we studied a module in logic and many students were actually surprised with some of the laws that were being taught; in other words someone had to make them realise that their common methods of reasoning were sometimes flawed.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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please cite the hadeeth you just mentioned.if this hadeeth is true does that mean all the knowledhge of the world is baatil? including science, medicine, anthropology and million more ... that makes no sense :squeez:

surely the hadith can be interpreted to mean that only the knowledge (about religious matters) is to be taken by imams (and not others ,who claim to be superior or in competition to imams)in matters such as interpretion of Quran and esoteric meanings.

why cant any1 understand the logic behind your post? plz elaborate and educate us.

you wrote

"and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??"

who is making such claim here?

you wrote ," worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws" , prove it plz.

and you wrote

"Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic." you are contradicting yourself

aristotle is the same person as arastu (called in Urdu)

please, set your facts straight .

maula waris

Salam

Rasool Allah saww said: I am the city of knowledge(al ilm) and Ali is it's gate....

Al ilm means every knowledge not just religious. Many scientific theories such as Darwins evolution theory is against Islamic theory of evolution. Masoomeen asws have taught mathematics, geology, gemology, agriculture, chemistry, physics, medicine etc imam Jafar as Sadiq asws had 4000 students from all over the world however our ulema compiled narrtions related to usool, furoo and few sciences city only 400 students mainly and named it usool e arbamiya.

Our sciences are just not limited to 400 usools but are beyond it however people don't have the time and Money to get those. The khutub khana where I studdied has different books pertaining to nuclear science such as bio chemistry, discourses in Sanskrit language etc. Due to it's sensitive nature and very few seekers we do not learn it.

Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws.

I hope u get me

ya Ali madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Salam

Rasool Allah saww said: I am the city of knowledge(al ilm) and Ali is it's gate....

Al ilm means every knowledge not just religious. Many scientific theories such as Darwins evolution theory is against Islamic theory of evolution. Masoomeen asws have taught mathematics, geology, gemology, agriculture, chemistry, physics, medicine etc imam Jafar as Sadiq asws had 4000 students from all over the world however our ulema compiled narrtions related to usool, furoo and few sciences city only 400 students mainly and named it usool e arbamiya.

Our sciences are just not limited to 400 usools but are beyond it however people don't have the time and Money to get those. The khutub khana where I studdied has different books pertaining to nuclear science such as bio chemistry, discourses in Sanskrit language etc. Due to it's sensitive nature and very few seekers we do not learn it.

Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws.

I hope u get me

Masoomen j.j have taught us most of the things , and i believe masoomeen a.s have all knowledge , but what has reached to us from them contains less science and more of religious ahadees. thats not to say that they knew anything less. however, all knowledge we have today such as much of philosophy corpus , anthropology , historiograpgy and million other aspects of knowledge we hold today has come from other people (rather than infallibles) and that doesnt mean that they all are wrong.

you wrote " Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws." ,

it was not LATER that western philosophy was adapted , even at time of Imam sadiq j.j , greek works were translated into arabic , and since philosophy precedes the time of Imam Ali j.j or Sadiq Imam j.j , that would be just naive to assume that there was no philosophy before them (hence same is true for mathematics,poetry , geneology etc)

even though masoomeeen made the most important contributions to knowledge of their time ,

it would not be correct to assume that all knowledge begins from masoomeen.

and you wrote "they developed their own curriculum" , there is nothing wrong about developing your own curriculum , many concepts ideas and discourses in philosophy were added later , and reflected the thinking and intellectual development of respective societies at time

ya Ali madad

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

It seems that you didn't understand anything that I said. It was proven to you that you used LOGIC to defy LOGIC. Can you see the contradiction? I'm sure you can't.

Anyways,

One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

Edited by Imami_ali

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One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

What do you think Shi`as were using all those centuries before they started incorporating the study of Aristotelean (via Ibn Sina) logic into their curriculum?

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It seems that you didn't understand anything that I said. It was proven to you that you used LOGIC to defy LOGIC. Can you see the contradiction? I'm sure you can't.

Anyways,

One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

you don't have to use a fallible science called mantiq to understand a hadees. Understanding ahadees is min Allah through sabr and salat, I.e., the saying of masoom is that hadees can only be understood by a muqarrab angel, prophets or by a momin whose heart has been tested for faith. And I think we both are missing the point and unable to understand each other that's why I seek help through sabr and salat and u use kidneys and mantiq.

U did not leave usoolism years ago after having promised that u would if I answered u and I did answer u at that time.

And listen carefully; what I understand or u understand cannot be hujja. It's is only our duty to present hadees not what u understood with ur mantiq.

Ya Ali madad

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What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

Benefits of studying books on logic are many ...... also, I am of the opinion that logic leads to understanding of the subject. And if your subject is Islam, then understand Islam you must so that you can practise it. However, it is considered as a deviation if you assume and derive conclusions on the basis of your logic and understanding. Therefore, one must be careful not to overstep the bounds of Islamic Laws and corresponding jurisprudence and abide by them as they are.

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(salam)

Logic is based on facts and axioms. Religions (any) are not based on well-defined facts (scientific). Without facts and rules, logic is pretty much useless.

Learning logic is fine though.

What do you mean by: "Logic is based on facts"?

Some of you misunderstand what we mean by logic. You are thinking along the lines of this: http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/

What do you think Shi`as were using all those centuries before they started incorporating the study of Aristotelean (via Ibn Sina) logic into their curriculum?

Nothing wrong with making improvements to take advantage of the greater opportunities that we have today. Do we have evidence that the Imams [a] taught a module in mnemonics? Should the hawzah? They probably should.

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Nothing wrong with making improvements to take advantage of the greater opportunities that we have today. Do we have evidence that the Imams [a] taught a module in mnemonics? Should the hawzah? They probably should.

If one had the capacity and time to learn every bit of knowledge in the world, fine and good, but since we don't the time spent in formal study should focus on what is actually relevant and important. Considering how students can go ten years through the howza system and come out knowing hardly anything of the sources of the religion (focusing mainly on centuries later repackagings), it seems to me a valid question to ask why such time would be spent on this topic while not on those of actual substance. Worse still to then claim that said subject is actually necessary to properly understanding the religion when the religion itself has not ordained it.

In terms of the utility of mantiq, I'm not really convinced of that either. Why if it is such a safeguard against falsehoods and faulty reasonings would most of its experts nowadays (by that I mean professional academic philosophers who go much deeper than the relatively simple stuff most howza students will get exposed to, learning not only the classical logic of the type still used in howza but also going into symbolic logic and so on) be emphatically atheist?

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

I also affirm to same theological beliefs , however lets talk of ground reality (that is the recorded history) , do you mean that there was no kind of KNOWELDGE before around 600 C.E ?

you wrote:

"If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods"

what is the thing of 2 gods , i did not understand this.

maula waris

(salam)

Logic is based on facts and axioms. Religions (any) are not based on well-defined facts (scientific). Without facts and rules, logic is pretty much useless.

Learning logic is fine though.

salam,

can you plz elaborate a bit on how logic can be based on rules or facts? is logic not in itself providing a set of principles for determining the validity of any argument , serving as a basic premise

and how can it be dependant upon facts , for facts are verifiable , whereas logic can work in case of hypothetical arguments also. For instance, applications of game theory.

i am a bit confused about your post- kindly explain

angel.gif

maula waris

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What do you mean by: "Logic is based on facts"?

Some of you misunderstand what we mean by logic. You are thinking along the lines of this: http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/

I am speaking about axioms that are based on established facts/universally truth/self evidence.

I am not thinking about falsafa.

salam,

can you plz elaborate a bit on how logic can be based on rules or facts? is logic not in itself providing a set of principles for determining the validity of any argument , serving as a basic premise

and how can it be dependant upon facts , for facts are verifiable , whereas logic can work in case of hypothetical arguments also. For instance, applications of game theory.

i am a bit confused about your post- kindly explain

angel.gif

maula waris

You can apply logic to any field. Philosophy, mathematic anything really. That is why you sometimes sees people using terminology like Islamic logic/Islamic Philosophical logic...etc

Edited by Zareen

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If one had the capacity and time to learn every bit of knowledge in the world, fine and good, but since we don't the time spent in formal study should focus on what is actually relevant and important. Considering how students can go ten years through the howza system and come out knowing hardly anything of the sources of the religion (focusing mainly on centuries later repackagings), it seems to me a valid question to ask why such time would be spent on this topic while not on those of actual substance. Worse still to then claim that said subject is actually necessary to properly understanding the religion when the religion itself has not ordained it.

I am not suggesting that people should study mantiq and similar subjects for years on end in hawzah. I am only suggesting that they be introduced to them right at the beginning of the course.

In terms of the utility of mantiq, I'm not really convinced of that either. Why if it is such a safeguard against falsehoods and faulty reasonings would most of its experts nowadays (by that I mean professional academic philosophers who go much deeper than the relatively simple stuff most howza students will get exposed to, learning not only the classical logic of the type still used in howza but also going into symbolic logic and so on) be emphatically atheist?

All of us have free will. If the insincere do not make the best use of their knowledge then the it does not mean that the sincere will do the same. Studying Biology can be a means of proving the existence (to a limited extent) of Allah but many if not most western biologists are atheists. The study of Logic is in itself not a guaranteed safeguard against falsehood and for the sincere and rational minded people it probably does not do a huge deal to safeguard them from falsehoods (because they will generally find the truth) but it does help them fine tune their truth seeking abilities and it does aid in polemic discussions. In my opinion most of the benefits of studying logic/critical thinking will go to those who tend not to be very rational.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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It's even more alarming when one sees that usoolis actually do blind and unconditional taqlid of those maajae who are a product of this mantiq dominant curriculum at qum hawza. All praise be to Allah (swt) that I woke up from my slumber and started following ahadith. Probably about less than a year ago I also used to be a faithful muqallid and used to foolishly defend the hawza cuuriculum which seems to be just a rip off of the darse nizami curriculum taught at deviant hanafi darul ulooms.

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Imam ali asws was asked: can we learn philosophy?

Look for his asws's answer in the book nahjul asraar.

Mantiq?

Teach, learn ahadees before the marjiya take over ur children said imam asws. When asked if we could learn their knowledge to defend ourselves. Imam said: stay away from such mushrik creeds.

Eastern or western; most philosophy is from mushrik creeds Indian: Islamic?. Chinese: islamic? Russian: Islamic? Western: Islamic?

Combined together; people term it as Islamic without reference from imams and quran??

If any of u can even present a hadees where imam asws said it is prerequisite to learn mantiq, falsafa before studying religion or after studying religion??

I found imam's were averse with the ahle ilm ul kalam and told the companions to only use imam's kalam in debates or talks.

Ya Ali Madad

Ya Ali Madad

I also affirm to same theological beliefs , however lets talk of ground reality (that is the recorded history) , do you mean that there was no kind of KNOWELDGE before around 600 C.E ?

you wrote:

"If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods"

what is the thing of 2 gods , i did not understand this.

maula waris

before 600 ce people had true and false knowledge combined. The prophets taught them the knowledge of Allah azwj however they tampered it and made their own laws and principles so rasool Allah saww and imams asws confirmed the truth from falsehood of the knowledge they had.

Quran says ask ahle zikr if u do not know?

Zikr rasool Allah and ahle zikr aale mohammad.

The Sunnis of that time(some of them said ahle zikr are the Jews and Christians)

imams did baraat from such people. And remember if rasool Allah saww's mission was to make philosophers, doctors etc then we sahabas would have been doctors, philosophers etc.

Rather he came with naba al azeem, tawalla and tabarra.

Had the munkir e wila stayed wit ali asws we would be needless of anything. Shirk has different kinds and there shirk in wilaya too, denying hadees is also a form of shirk.

Ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

There is this although i do not know where it is from that the prophet (pbuh) "Philosophy is a stray camel to the faithful. Grab hold of it wherever you come across it."

Anyways you should not become an enemy to what you do not know. even though that is easy for mankind to do. instead of thinking everyone else is wrong who take such a path, why do you not examine your own self and be cautious.

(wasalam)

Edited by AlMuttaqi

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