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In the Name of God بسم الله
janali

Mantiq (logic)

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please cite the hadeeth you just mentioned.if this hadeeth is true does that mean all the knowledhge of the world is baatil? including science, medicine, anthropology and million more ... that makes no sense :squeez:

surely the hadith can be interpreted to mean that only the knowledge (about religious matters) is to be taken by imams (and not others ,who claim to be superior or in competition to imams)in matters such as interpretion of Quran and esoteric meanings.

why cant any1 understand the logic behind your post? plz elaborate and educate us.

you wrote

"and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??"

who is making such claim here?

you wrote ," worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws" , prove it plz.

and you wrote

"Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic." you are contradicting yourself

aristotle is the same person as arastu (called in Urdu)

please, set your facts straight .

maula waris

Salam

Rasool Allah saww said: I am the city of knowledge(al ilm) and Ali is it's gate....

Al ilm means every knowledge not just religious. Many scientific theories such as Darwins evolution theory is against Islamic theory of evolution. Masoomeen asws have taught mathematics, geology, gemology, agriculture, chemistry, physics, medicine etc imam Jafar as Sadiq asws had 4000 students from all over the world however our ulema compiled narrtions related to usool, furoo and few sciences city only 400 students mainly and named it usool e arbamiya.

Our sciences are just not limited to 400 usools but are beyond it however people don't have the time and Money to get those. The khutub khana where I studdied has different books pertaining to nuclear science such as bio chemistry, discourses in Sanskrit language etc. Due to it's sensitive nature and very few seekers we do not learn it.

Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws.

I hope u get me

ya Ali madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Salam

Rasool Allah saww said: I am the city of knowledge(al ilm) and Ali is it's gate....

Al ilm means every knowledge not just religious. Many scientific theories such as Darwins evolution theory is against Islamic theory of evolution. Masoomeen asws have taught mathematics, geology, gemology, agriculture, chemistry, physics, medicine etc imam Jafar as Sadiq asws had 4000 students from all over the world however our ulema compiled narrtions related to usool, furoo and few sciences city only 400 students mainly and named it usool e arbamiya.

Our sciences are just not limited to 400 usools but are beyond it however people don't have the time and Money to get those. The khutub khana where I studdied has different books pertaining to nuclear science such as bio chemistry, discourses in Sanskrit language etc. Due to it's sensitive nature and very few seekers we do not learn it.

Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws.

I hope u get me

Masoomen j.j have taught us most of the things , and i believe masoomeen a.s have all knowledge , but what has reached to us from them contains less science and more of religious ahadees. thats not to say that they knew anything less. however, all knowledge we have today such as much of philosophy corpus , anthropology , historiograpgy and million other aspects of knowledge we hold today has come from other people (rather than infallibles) and that doesnt mean that they all are wrong.

you wrote " Later on our scholars borrowed philosophy from western scholars and developed their own curiculum paying less attention to knowledge from imams asws." ,

it was not LATER that western philosophy was adapted , even at time of Imam sadiq j.j , greek works were translated into arabic , and since philosophy precedes the time of Imam Ali j.j or Sadiq Imam j.j , that would be just naive to assume that there was no philosophy before them (hence same is true for mathematics,poetry , geneology etc)

even though masoomeeen made the most important contributions to knowledge of their time ,

it would not be correct to assume that all knowledge begins from masoomeen.

and you wrote "they developed their own curriculum" , there is nothing wrong about developing your own curriculum , many concepts ideas and discourses in philosophy were added later , and reflected the thinking and intellectual development of respective societies at time

ya Ali madad

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

It seems that you didn't understand anything that I said. It was proven to you that you used LOGIC to defy LOGIC. Can you see the contradiction? I'm sure you can't.

Anyways,

One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

Edited by Imami_ali

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One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

What do you think Shi`as were using all those centuries before they started incorporating the study of Aristotelean (via Ibn Sina) logic into their curriculum?

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It seems that you didn't understand anything that I said. It was proven to you that you used LOGIC to defy LOGIC. Can you see the contradiction? I'm sure you can't.

Anyways,

One question which will solve your confusion:

- How do you understand the words of Ahlulbeit (as) ? What do you use to understand it?

You say it suffices to just read their words, so how do you understand their words? Through which organ, your kidney?

you don't have to use a fallible science called mantiq to understand a hadees. Understanding ahadees is min Allah through sabr and salat, I.e., the saying of masoom is that hadees can only be understood by a muqarrab angel, prophets or by a momin whose heart has been tested for faith. And I think we both are missing the point and unable to understand each other that's why I seek help through sabr and salat and u use kidneys and mantiq.

U did not leave usoolism years ago after having promised that u would if I answered u and I did answer u at that time.

And listen carefully; what I understand or u understand cannot be hujja. It's is only our duty to present hadees not what u understood with ur mantiq.

Ya Ali madad

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What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

Benefits of studying books on logic are many ...... also, I am of the opinion that logic leads to understanding of the subject. And if your subject is Islam, then understand Islam you must so that you can practise it. However, it is considered as a deviation if you assume and derive conclusions on the basis of your logic and understanding. Therefore, one must be careful not to overstep the bounds of Islamic Laws and corresponding jurisprudence and abide by them as they are.

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(salam)

Logic is based on facts and axioms. Religions (any) are not based on well-defined facts (scientific). Without facts and rules, logic is pretty much useless.

Learning logic is fine though.

What do you mean by: "Logic is based on facts"?

Some of you misunderstand what we mean by logic. You are thinking along the lines of this: http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/

What do you think Shi`as were using all those centuries before they started incorporating the study of Aristotelean (via Ibn Sina) logic into their curriculum?

Nothing wrong with making improvements to take advantage of the greater opportunities that we have today. Do we have evidence that the Imams [a] taught a module in mnemonics? Should the hawzah? They probably should.

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Nothing wrong with making improvements to take advantage of the greater opportunities that we have today. Do we have evidence that the Imams [a] taught a module in mnemonics? Should the hawzah? They probably should.

If one had the capacity and time to learn every bit of knowledge in the world, fine and good, but since we don't the time spent in formal study should focus on what is actually relevant and important. Considering how students can go ten years through the howza system and come out knowing hardly anything of the sources of the religion (focusing mainly on centuries later repackagings), it seems to me a valid question to ask why such time would be spent on this topic while not on those of actual substance. Worse still to then claim that said subject is actually necessary to properly understanding the religion when the religion itself has not ordained it.

In terms of the utility of mantiq, I'm not really convinced of that either. Why if it is such a safeguard against falsehoods and faulty reasonings would most of its experts nowadays (by that I mean professional academic philosophers who go much deeper than the relatively simple stuff most howza students will get exposed to, learning not only the classical logic of the type still used in howza but also going into symbolic logic and so on) be emphatically atheist?

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So u only know the mohammad saww who came 1400 years ago but I believe in mohammad saww since I affirmed to the covenant of his nabbuwat in alam e arwa.

If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods but they sought every knowledge from the source of knowledge of Allah azwj, I.e., ahlulbayth asws and hey all prophets learned it from mohammad saww as well.

Every essential knowledge has been given and it exists among us and I am needless of anyone other than ahlulbayth asws.

Ya Ali Madad

I also affirm to same theological beliefs , however lets talk of ground reality (that is the recorded history) , do you mean that there was no kind of KNOWELDGE before around 600 C.E ?

you wrote:

"If Shias during the time of imams asws sought philosophy of greeks or knowledge of Jews and Christians that means they had two Gods"

what is the thing of 2 gods , i did not understand this.

maula waris

(salam)

Logic is based on facts and axioms. Religions (any) are not based on well-defined facts (scientific). Without facts and rules, logic is pretty much useless.

Learning logic is fine though.

salam,

can you plz elaborate a bit on how logic can be based on rules or facts? is logic not in itself providing a set of principles for determining the validity of any argument , serving as a basic premise

and how can it be dependant upon facts , for facts are verifiable , whereas logic can work in case of hypothetical arguments also. For instance, applications of game theory.

i am a bit confused about your post- kindly explain

angel.gif

maula waris

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What do you mean by: "Logic is based on facts"?

Some of you misunderstand what we mean by logic. You are thinking along the lines of this: http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/

I am speaking about axioms that are based on established facts/universally truth/self evidence.

I am not thinking about falsafa.

salam,

can you plz elaborate a bit on how logic can be based on rules or facts? is logic not in itself providing a set of principles for determining the validity of any argument , serving as a basic premise

and how can it be dependant upon facts , for facts are verifiable , whereas logic can work in case of hypothetical arguments also. For instance, applications of game theory.

i am a bit confused about your post- kindly explain

angel.gif

maula waris

You can apply logic to any field. Philosophy, mathematic anything really. That is why you sometimes sees people using terminology like Islamic logic/Islamic Philosophical logic...etc

Edited by Zareen

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If one had the capacity and time to learn every bit of knowledge in the world, fine and good, but since we don't the time spent in formal study should focus on what is actually relevant and important. Considering how students can go ten years through the howza system and come out knowing hardly anything of the sources of the religion (focusing mainly on centuries later repackagings), it seems to me a valid question to ask why such time would be spent on this topic while not on those of actual substance. Worse still to then claim that said subject is actually necessary to properly understanding the religion when the religion itself has not ordained it.

I am not suggesting that people should study mantiq and similar subjects for years on end in hawzah. I am only suggesting that they be introduced to them right at the beginning of the course.

In terms of the utility of mantiq, I'm not really convinced of that either. Why if it is such a safeguard against falsehoods and faulty reasonings would most of its experts nowadays (by that I mean professional academic philosophers who go much deeper than the relatively simple stuff most howza students will get exposed to, learning not only the classical logic of the type still used in howza but also going into symbolic logic and so on) be emphatically atheist?

All of us have free will. If the insincere do not make the best use of their knowledge then the it does not mean that the sincere will do the same. Studying Biology can be a means of proving the existence (to a limited extent) of Allah but many if not most western biologists are atheists. The study of Logic is in itself not a guaranteed safeguard against falsehood and for the sincere and rational minded people it probably does not do a huge deal to safeguard them from falsehoods (because they will generally find the truth) but it does help them fine tune their truth seeking abilities and it does aid in polemic discussions. In my opinion most of the benefits of studying logic/critical thinking will go to those who tend not to be very rational.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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It's even more alarming when one sees that usoolis actually do blind and unconditional taqlid of those maajae who are a product of this mantiq dominant curriculum at qum hawza. All praise be to Allah (swt) that I woke up from my slumber and started following ahadith. Probably about less than a year ago I also used to be a faithful muqallid and used to foolishly defend the hawza cuuriculum which seems to be just a rip off of the darse nizami curriculum taught at deviant hanafi darul ulooms.

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