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In the Name of God بسم الله
janali

Mantiq (logic)

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YA ALI MADAD

What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

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logic is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, semantics, and computer science. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. It is one kind of critical thinking.

I don't see any problem in studying logic. Neither does religion go against it .In fact Logic is a key to understand many disciplines in academia.Logic has many types , from mathematical to the kind we use in informal argumentation.

so please go ahead with your pursuit of knowledge :D

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YA ALI MADAD

What benefits are there in studying books like Mantiq-e-Muazaffar and other books about logic?

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

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logic is the formal systematic study of the principles of valid inference and correct reasoning.] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, semantics, and computer science. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. It is one kind of critical thinking.

I don't see any problem in studying logic. Neither does religion go against it .In fact Logic is a key to understand many disciplines in academia.Logic has many types , from mathematical to the kind we use in informal argumentation.

so please go ahead with your pursuit of knowledge :D

can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

Well said, they (Imams(as)) didn't.

Kafi

ÚÏÉ ãä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì ÞÇá: ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÇáÍÓä ãæÓì (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) Úä ÇáÞíÇÓ ÝÞÇá: ãÇáßã æÇáÞíÇÓ Åä Çááå áÇ íÓÃá ßíÝ ÃÍá æßíÝ ÍÑã.

A group among companions, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from Uthman b.Easa said: (I) asked Abul Hasan Musa(as) answered regarding qiyas(analogies/deductions) so (he(as)) said "What have you got to do with qiyas? Allah(SWT) does not ask how something was halal and how (it was) haram."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/whats-logic-behind-laws.html

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

(1) right now, i do not have any hadees in mind,however i read a hadith by 6th shia imam (sadiq j.j) that your mind is hujjat upon you (to discern) , i will shortly post the exact hadith

(2)nowhere did i say that logic gives you meaning behind everything in islam . no discipline or study is exhaustive enough to encompass all matters of life.therefore studies and their application-ranges are divided. anthropology may tell you 1 aspect of life, history another and maths for instance ,something else.

(3) why do we have to put in everything as being ISlamic or (otherwise ) anti-islamic. Logic has many many applications in the world , such as philosophy , we dont have to neccessarily connect them or get them endorsed by any religious view.

(4) i do not know what you may refer as personal logic.

logic , by definition is impersonal set of axioms , that are used objectively to come to a (Reasonable) ( or in philosophic discourse) truth.

can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

(1) right now, i do not have any hadees in mind,however i read a hadith by 6th shia imam (sadiq j.j) that your mind is hujjat upon you (to discern) , i will shortly post the exact hadith

(2)nowhere did i say that logic gives you meaning behind everything in islam . no discipline or study is exhaustive enough to encompass all matters of life.therefore studies and their application-ranges are divided. anthropology may tell you 1 aspect of life, history another and maths for instance ,something else.

(3) why do we have to put in everything as being ISlamic or (otherwise ) anti-islamic. Logic has many many applications in the world , such as philosophy , we dont have to neccessarily connect them or get them endorsed by any religious view.

(4) i do not know what you may refer as personal logic.

logic , by definition is impersonal set of axioms , that are used objectively to come to a (Reasonable) ( or in philosophic discourse) truth.

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islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

1) Islam has no place for fallible logic.

2) fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah

3) So, worthless it is (logic).

Congratulations, you just used logic to disprove logic !

Your post resembled the Aristotelian structure of logical arguments.

What a contradiction.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even aware of what you say.

-----------

janali

I think you got your answer ^_^

Wasalam

Edited by Imami_ali

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can u quote me a reference where any imam a.s has asked us to learn the mantiq behind everythingg in Islam; espesially laws.

I know imams themselves gave logic behind laws but how about personal logics?

Ya Ali Madad

salam,

even though i do not endorse the Qom seminaries , however, Mantiq is taught there ,amongst other subjects.

following wikipedia entry may help shed some light on this [note- i do not claim wikipedia to be 100% reliable, however, just to give you an idea]

"

Hawza Studies is dedicated to the more traditional subjects only, especially since they are not readily available elsewhere. The traditional subjects taught at a Hawza may be divided into the following

Mantiq (Logic)

Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Jurisprudence)

Fiqh (Jurisprudence)

Tafsir al-Qur'an (Qur'an Exegesis)...... "

maula waris

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

salam

this doesnt prove the inefficacy of Logic as a discipline.However, even to argue [hypothetically]) in an extreme case that logic is forbidden to understand religion.But this doesnt invalidate its basic premise of solving other fundamental problems in non-religious discourses

maula waris

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islAm although a logical religion has no place for fallible logic. And fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah aZwj.

So, worthless it is.

Ya Ali Madad

Kafi

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الوشاء، عن مثنى الحناط، عن أبي بصير قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): ترد علينا أشياء ليس نعرفها في كتاب الله ولا سنة فننظر فيها؟ فقال: لا، أما إنك إن أصبت لم تؤجر، وإن أخطأت كذبت على الله عز وجل

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Sometimes we are asked things (religious questions) we can not find in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

One of the reasons we study logic is to avoid making posts like the ones quoted. Brothers, please look up the meaning of the word logic. I am not being sarcastic, I honestly think you may need to reassess your understanding of that word.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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1) Islam has no place for fallible logic.

2) fallible cannot comprehend the logic of Allah

3) So, worthless it is (logic).

Congratulations, you just used logic to disprove logic !

Your post resembled the Aristotelian structure of logical arguments.

What a contradiction.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys are even aware of what you say.

-----------

janali

I think you got your answer ^_^

Wasalam

Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

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Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

please cite the hadeeth you just mentioned.if this hadeeth is true does that mean all the knowledhge of the world is baatil? including science, medicine, anthropology and million more ... that makes no sense :squeez:

surely the hadith can be interpreted to mean that only the knowledge (about religious matters) is to be taken by imams (and not others ,who claim to be superior or in competition to imams)in matters such as interpretion of Quran and esoteric meanings.

why cant any1 understand the logic behind your post? plz elaborate and educate us.

you wrote

"and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??"

who is making such claim here?

you wrote ," worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws" , prove it plz.

and you wrote

"Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic." you are contradicting yourself

aristotle is the same person as arastu (called in Urdu)

please, set your facts straight .

maula waris

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Salam all,

any knowledge that doesn't come from ahlebayth a.s is batil. Said imam sadiq asws(wasail)

theyAsws taught logic behind some laws and we learn it and worthless is that logic which comes from other than them asws. Aristotle's logic or Ur logic doesn't have a place in Islam, but hawzas teach arastu's logic.

U can't understand the logic behind my post and u know the logic behind Allah azwj's laws without guidance from ahlebayth asws??

Ya Ali Madad

Take the word "logic" in your post and replace it with the word "biology", would your post make any sense? Again brother please look up what logic means. You seem to be confusing logic with the limits of human knowledge in fully appreciating the complete reasoning of every Islamic law.

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Logic as in general reason is not a problem (within its proper bounds). Even the logic (as a formal science) of Aristotle and the Greeks (classical logic) might have some usefulness like other sciences, even though it would now largely be considered obsolete by modern logic (i.e. symbolic logic). The question (to me) is what relevance does such an imported science has to do with the study of the religion? Were it relevant and necessary to understanding properly the usool and furu` ad-deen, wouldn't have the A'imma (as) given us some instructions to that effect? When did it start getting taught in the hawza? I've yet to see any reference to such study in the works of such greats as Mufid, Murtada and Tusi and the mutaqaddimeen `ulama.

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Logic as in general reason is not a problem (within its proper bounds). Even the logic (as a formal science) of Aristotle and the Greeks (classical logic) might have some usefulness like other sciences, even though it would now largely be considered obsolete by modern logic (i.e. symbolic logic). The question (to me) is what relevance does such an imported science has to do with the study of the religion? Were it relevant and necessary to understanding properly the usool and furu` ad-deen, wouldn't have the A'imma (as) given us some instructions to that effect? When did it start getting taught in the hawza? I've yet to see any reference to such study in the works of such greats as Mufid, Murtada and Tusi and the mutaqaddimeen `ulama.

Consider how regularly people make logical fallacies. The study of logic would help novice students avoid those fallacies and it would serve as a tool to sharpen the mind (take for example how Ayatullah Tabatabai was advised by one of the hawzah teachers to study maths for this reason). The imams did not have the luxury to teach that sort of science as a separate subject to junior hawzah students. I remember when I was in the first year of university and we studied a module in logic and many students were actually surprised with some of the laws that were being taught; in other words someone had to make them realise that their common methods of reasoning were sometimes flawed.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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