Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
noselfwilling

The Eyewitness Testimony Of The Disciples

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hi sir

the matter of Jesus' death and resurrection (christian view ) or his ascendancy to god (muslim view) is only a historical matter.

even if the muslims view came out to be false and Jesus (as) actually died it will not effect the matters of belief in gods unity which are purely logical

the belief in gods unity means god is indivisible undefined infinite and without boundaries

having a shape and form is equivalent to having boundaries and being finite. same goes with division and partition , i.e. when god is divided into three then all those three entities will be finite and hence none of them will be god

accepting a finite god is accepting an idol and the question would be raised " Who created that god" because finite entities have start and end .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Allah said Jesus didn't die on the cross, but since Allah is wrong, then Allah is not God.

1/3 (Father) + 1/3 (Son) + 1/3 (Spirit) = 1 God in 3 Persons.

Each Person of the Godhead is infinitely co-equal.

God reveals Himself to us in His complexity in 3 Persons.

In the council of the Godhead before the foundations of the world the 3 Persons of the Godhead agreed the 2nd Person would atone for sins.

When God created, the Father spoke it, the Son created, and the Spirit renwed it.

When I pray to God, I pray to the Father through the Son by the Spirit.

The Son showed perfect obedience to the Father because only God could. Jesus is the only sinless person who ever lived because He is God.

Edited by noselfwilling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

salaam, shalom:

i wrote this in another thread but it suitable for here too since I go through trinity and criticize it and criticize other forms of idol worship in all of the religions including Islam. i have also highlighted the mathematical flaws with trinity.

All of the monotheistic religions have collapsed by the collapse of the most important pillar which is Tawheed ( gods divine Unity)

Unity was the number one and most fundamental message that the prophets came to give and fought for . this is why the enemies of the prophets have always been the polytheists or idol worshipers.

the Devil can not fight the religion conventionally so he targets its most important pillar i.e. Unity and he destroys it from within and all the religions have fallen into this to different levels including islam.

the most convenient way to destroy the understanding of unity is to stop the people from differentiating between the creator and the created by associating the creator with the created.

this could be done by describing god by the lacking attributes of the created or describing the created by the unique attributes of god.

the sad thing is that the devil would use your love for god and religion and will use your love for the holy prophets to make you fall into this ditch.

its the extreme love for Jesus and the masomeen which caused people to elevate their status to the status of god.

the concept of unity:

the concept of unity is the only logical answer to the common question of philosophers.

where did we start? where did we come from ? if the entity that brought us to existence is another finite entity then who brought that entity into existence?

the only logical answer is that the cause of all causes and the start of everything and the initiator is different and not described by the attributes of the finite entities.

Hence god is one who is:

indivisible,

infinite,

beyond description,

un-partitioned,

un-contained,

un- composed,

not located,

not initiated,

not ended,

not complex

and not described by any of the lacking descriptions of the created.

Trinity has few explanations as far as i heard:

1) one saying that Jesus is part of god and god and the holy ghost make up the other two parts so together they make infinity .

2) the other notion is that Jesus is god himself but the human form and hence god takes forms and shapes and the human is created in his image

3) the last one refers to Jesus as some thing in between the created and the creator so he is like a mini god.

the first notion partitions god and makes god into a complex which directly conflicts with unity....

The unity is that god in not composed and has no associates therefore only lacking entities who are created would be composed and would need the associates and partitions. This is because each part or associate would need the other part or associate to be. Also each associate would need to occupy a dimension where the other associate would be absent and absence is and equivalent of lack and weakness and is a unique attribute of the created.

this means we have turned god into three weak idols each of them having the attributes of the created.

the second notion has a logical problem which contradicts basic mathematics and logic and also describes god by the descriptions of the idols.

if Jesus is god himself then what is the point of labeling him a different name and treating them like two separate entities??

If they are the same entity then why does the bible say the father is greater than Jesus?

"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).

if you put these logical statements in mathematical terms and ask your teacher you will be notified that there is a mathematical error:

statemenmt one father = Jesus

statemenmt two father > Jesus

substitute equation one into equation two you will get:

Jesus > Jesus

which means Jesus is greater than himself !!!!

how could anything be greater than itself ?

this notion of the trinity wants to convince us that

1 = 3

if 1=3 then anything would be possible

1+1 will not be only 2 but it will be 2 and 6 and 4

then we would have 2=4=6 then anything goes.

The second problem with this notion is that god FORMED in the shape of a limited and finite human namely Jesus. In other terms god has turned into an idol and limited himself and contradicted his unity by putting boundaries on himself and shaping himself and appearing bound by the limited dimensions.

this is not possible because god is infinite and would never be finite because that would mean he would contradict himself.

Its just like saying god is strong but he became weak.

or that god is existing but he seized to exist .

or that god is merciful but he became cruel.

This is impossible because gods attributes are himself not separated.

Finally the third notions is also rejected due to the fact that there is nothing that fits in a logical category existing outside teh two categories of created and creator.... . in the creation you only have two things

1) creator

2) everything else would be the created

so there is nothing in between

finally about Islam

Islam is not immune from these problems and we have fallen in the same traps as the Christians and Jews as the prophet prophesied.

some of us have described God by the attributes of the created like the wahabies and some of the sunni schools of thought where god is described by having a shape and that he would be seen on judgment day and that he is partitioned and has weight and etc.

some of us described the creatures with the unique descriptions of God and this vice is the vice of our own group (shia and suffi) groups where some say the imams have control over every atom in the universe and are associates with god. Some even put a scale and say that the knowledge of the imam or the prophet is just one level lower than god's . ( this was mentioned in the shirazi channel Al anwar by one of their speakers)

salaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just give into logic.

1) No evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross; lots of evidence he did die on the cross, so he died on the cross.

2) The disciples truly believed in their heart of hearts and with their eyes they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no naturalistic explanation to account for this, so Jesus raised himself from the dead proving He is God.

3) Jesus prayed to the Father and when He ascened He gave the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus could do the perfect will of the Father as only God the Son could. Hence, we see the 3 forms of God here. So "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name [only God can have a name above every name]: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

God is showing us He is relational in His 3 Persons. Before the foundations of the world the 2nd Person of the Trinity agreed to atone for the sins of the world as well to show man how to live in perfect obedience to the Father by the Holy Spirit given to all those who are born-again, selflessly giving their lives to Christ. Give your life to God the Son.

Edited by noselfwilling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just give into logic.

1) No evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross; lots of evidence he did die on the cross, so he died on the cross.

2) The disciples truly believed in their heart of hearts and with their eyes they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no naturalistic explanation to account for this, so Jesus raised himself from the dead proving He is God.

1) If there was historical evidence, you'd be disproving the Qur'an which says, it appeared so to the people.

2) You cant discuss what the disciples believed due to a lack of extant documentation from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) If there was historical evidence, you'd be disproving the Qur'an which says, it appeared so to the people.

2) You cant discuss what the disciples believed due to a lack of extant documentation from them.

That's really really vague to say it appeared so and just leave it hanging.

The problem with that beside it being vague and unspecific and coy is the disciples said they had seen Jesus alive from the dead and talked with him in various group settings over 40 days. The disciples didn't lie, Jesus didn't lie to them and God the Father didn't deceive them.

The primary sources are the Bible which multiply attest to the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. There are 12 different group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead.

http://www3.telus.ne...ks/12groups.htm

The extant sources for the Bible are far more numerous and closer to their events than for anyone or anything in antiquity so that's not a problem.

The problem for you is you can't find a naturalisic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs and you have no evidence or authority to come along six centuries later to say Jesus didn't die on the cross against many sources that attest to His death and resurrection, so no credible scholars gives the Qur'an any consideration.

[Note from Mod: Post edited - We encourage that the use of language is respectful to everyone's beliefs.]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One clue to the veracity of the Qu'ran's account that Jesus (as) disappeared from the visible realm prior to any arrest and crucifixion can be found in John, particularly Chapters 14-16:

16:16 ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me.’ 17Then some of his disciples said to one another, ‘What does he mean by saying to us, “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me”; and “Because I am going to the Father”?’ 18They said, ‘What does he mean by this “a little while”? We do not know what he is talking about.’ 19Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, ‘Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me”? 20Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy.

Had Jesus (as) meant that the disciples would not see him because of his arrest and crucifixion (or indeed because he was 1 part of 3), he would not have replied "Because I am going to the Father." The only way it is possible to understand these verses is in accordance with the Qu'ran 4:157-158

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

Why Allah (swt) would have made eye-witnesses misunderstand that Isa (as) had been crucified is outside my knowledge. However, I do know that the denial of the account of the crucifixion of Jesus defeats the commonly heard argument that the Qu'ran plagiarised earlier revealed scripture.

Edited by shamoun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're arguing on the base of logic, then how can it be logical for a GOD to die?

God created Hades below, man, and God can enter His creation through the womb of Mary. He can enter the likeness of flesh and allow evil men to kill Him in the flesh to atone for sins, go down to Abraham's bosom and raise Himself from the grave on the 3rd day.

Very logical!

What is not logical is to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross when there is no evidence six centuries later. No historian considers that credible historicity to rely on some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later. This is how I know the Qu'ran is not of God.

Silly.

Edited by noselfwilling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One clue to the veracity of the Qu'ran's account that Jesus (as) disappeared from the visible realm prior to any arrest and crucifixion can be found in John, particularly Chapters 14-16:

16:16 ‘A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me.’ 17Then some of his disciples said to one another, ‘What does he mean by saying to us, “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me”; and “Because I am going to the Father”?’ 18They said, ‘What does he mean by this “a little while”? We do not know what he is talking about.’ 19Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, ‘Are you discussing among yourselves what I meant when I said, “A little while, and you will no longer see me, and again a little while, and you will see me”? 20Very truly, I tell you, you will weep and mourn, but the world will rejoice; you will have pain, but your pain will turn into joy.

Had Jesus (as) meant that the disciples would not see him because of his arrest and crucifixion (or indeed because he was 1 part of 3), he would not have replied "Because I am going to the Father." The only way it is possible to understand these verses is in accordance with the Qu'ran 4:157-158

When Jesus died, He went to Abraham's bosom. When He rose the 3rd day He spent 40 days with the disciples then went to the right hand of the Father, being co-equal with Him, and in creation showing perfect obedience to the Father as only God the Son could do. No man could.

"A little while, and you will no longer see me" because of His crucifixion!

"And again a little while, and you will see me, because I go to the Father" because of His resurection! AND ascension!"

Because He is going to the Father He can only spend 40 days on earth after His resurrection.

40 is significant. It's enough time. Israel was in the wilderness for 40 years. Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days.

40 seems to be a test of some sort.

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

Why Allah (swt) would have made eye-witnesses misunderstand that Isa (as) had been crucified is outside my knowledge. However, I do know that the denial of the account of the crucifixion of Jesus defeats the commonly heard argument that the Qu'ran plagiarised earlier revealed scripture.

The Qu'ran is just plain wrong, non-evidence, and can't overturn the evidence of the primary sources.

Silly.

Satan would cause misunderstanding not God, so Satan has deceived Muslims into thinking the disciples were deceived which goes against the evidence that the disciples were not deceived, since group hallucinations are acccording to modern day psychology IMPOSSIBLE!

It's enough to know the Qu'ran is wrong and not of God because clearly Jesus died on the cross.

A person of faith need go no futher than that and need not consider the Qu'ran further. Simply now read God's word, the 66 books of the Bible, intently and forge your reliationship with the Father through Jesus. Amen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the invitation. However, if you are now saying that the excerpts from John's Gospel I quoted above simply mean the apostles did not witness Jesus' (as) crucifixion because they were not present at the event, your argument runs into further difficulties. This is because John 19:25-30 says as follows:

"Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, here is your son.’ 27Then he said to the disciple, ‘Here is your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home. 28 After this, when Jesus knew that all was now finished, he said (in order to fulfil the scripture), ‘I am thirsty.’ 29A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30When Jesus had received the wine, he said, ‘It is finished.’ Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."

John states that a disciple was present at the crucifixion, which means that on your argument, John's depiction of the crucifixion must be regarded as unreliable evidence. Of course I would agree with this argument but for different reasons, namely that Jesus' (as) crucifixion never took place. In these circumstances, I am compelled to repeat the verses of the Qu'ran I quoted above that "those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture."

Incidentally, if group hallucinations are impossible, presumably you would also deny the validity of the story of the transformation of Aaron's rod into a serpent, as recounted in Exodus 7:8 (amongst countless other miracles in the bible).

Edited by shamoun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know Allah is Satan because God is not a deceiver. God would not have deceived the disciples and besides, group hallucinations are impossible.

Islam has no credibility, because no historian considers some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later that disagrees with what is so firmly proven in so many multiply corroborated sources that Jesus died on the cross.

A loving God provides evidence and would never ask you to believe in blindly what Muhammad said. Muhammad is going to Hell with Allah Satan.

Since the disciples didn't lie, the writers of the NT didn't lie, Jesus didn't lie to the disciples and God the Father is not a deceiver, then you know Muhammad is a liar or deceived or both, and Satan the father of lies is Allah, a liar and a deceiver.

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi NoSelfWilling

I was going to say 'Welcome,' but I guess I am too late for that.

However, if you are allowed to read this you might do some studying that will help you understand that the Quran has credibility, and that we should read it with respect.

The subject of Jesus being crucified has been discussed often and Muslims have been taught different things. Some deny that Jesus died but that God took Him alive up to heaven.

We can’t deny them what they have been taught, but there are certain verses in the Quran that are quite definite about His death.

Surah 2 is named, “The Cow,” --- and in Mr Pickthall’s translation, he says it was so named from the ‘yellow heifer’ of verses 67-71.

The context really starts in 63, where the Jews are being reminded of their disobedience to God in breaking the covenant, in violating the Sabbath and in making the golden calf.

In these verses Moses was instructed to have them sacrifice a young cow, --- and unblemished yellow heifer, one that has never worked, nor with any mark , as it says in 71. --- This seems to be a sacrifice for their sin.

It takes on great significance if we compare it to the choosing of a red heifer in Numbers 19. --- The same type of unblemished heifer was to be used as a sacrifice for the sins of the offending Jews.

Now look at 72 and 73:

72. And remember when you slew a man and disagreed concerning it, and God brought forth that which you were hiding.

73. And We said: Smite him with some of it. Thus God brought the dead to life and shows you His signs so that you may understand.

The Muslim Commentator Maulana says that this refers to the martyrdom of Jesus Christ.

Another interesting thing is that the word translated ‘strike’ can also mean ‘apply’ or ‘compare’ as Sher Ali has translated it below.

Yusuf Ali: ‘So We said, “Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer).” Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand.’

Shakir: ‘So We said, “Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow),” thus God brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may understand.’

Sher Ali: ‘Then WE said, “Compare this incident with some other similar ones and you will discover the truth.” Thus does GOD give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand.’

--- It was impossible to ‘strike the dead body’ of Jesus ‘with a piece of the heifer,’ either the ‘yellow heifer,’ or the ‘red heifer’ that was reduced to ashes hundreds of years before, --- so it has to mean ‘make a comparison’ or ‘apply the incident’ of the sacrifice of Jesus for sin, --- to the ashes of the heifer from Numbers for the purification from sin.

If we ‘apply’ to the dead body, --- or ‘compare’ the dead body of Jesus to the sacrificed heifer (which was the perfect sacrifice of hundreds of years earlier for the Jewish people), --- we can see a parallel --- that Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice for sin, --- (as were the ashes of the heifer from hundreds of years earlier for purification from sin).

--- The difference is that the dead body of Jesus was brought back to life, --- and therefore conquered death. --- And in this we ‘see His Sign,’ of ‘newness of life’ or ‘resurrection from the dead.’ --- And then, after Jesus was raised from the dead, God took Him up to Himself, --- as it says in 3:55.

(Jesus was resurrected, rather than the OT sacrifice for purification from sin, that, --- when the ashes were all used up, they had to be replaced by the ashes of another perfect heifer).

Surah 3:55. Yusuf Ali: Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Sher Ali: Remember the time when God said' `O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will raise thee to Myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve, and will exalt those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to ME shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...