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noselfwilling

Where Is The Evidence Jesus Didn't Die?

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Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross, and the bulk of these sources do mention his death on the cross (see Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, The Historical Jesus, and The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas).

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically? Normally historians focus on the primary sources closes to the timing of the events, so the Qu'ran is given no consideration because it has no evidence and we can't trust any spirit for that would not be prudent. Faith should be backed up by evidence. Test the spirits and "prove all things".

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). If it does not line up with the word of God it is not to be trusted.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).

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Yes, not only did He say He would die on the cross and raise Himself the 3rd day, but He did it which is well testified.

Since the disciples truly believed in the heart of hearts they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, and group hallucinations are impossible, then we know Jesus really resurreced Himself proving He is God and salvation is only through Him.

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Yes, not only did He say He would die on the cross and raise Himself the 3rd day, but He did it which is well testified.

Since the disciples truly believed in the heart of hearts they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, and group hallucinations are impossible, then we know Jesus really resurreced Himself proving He is God and salvation is only through Him.

Ok in regards to your first post:

"and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible

slander against Mary and said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus,

son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ They did not kill him, nor did

they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them;

those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge

to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him"

The Qur'an doesnt deny that people historically thought this to be true. Nor was it unknown to our Prophet Muhammad that christians believed in a Crucifixion.

In regards to your other claims, none of your four gospels actually can be traced back reliably to ANY Disciple, rather critical scholarship rejects that they are. So please, dont make blanket claims about something which most people can not check you on.

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"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." (Quran - Surah 4:157)

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There is very little historical evidence that Jesus even existed let alone how he died. The four gospels are the only source of information about Jesus, neither of which are considered historical nor are they eyewitness accounts. Furthermore, the number of contradictions amongst them renders them unreliable.

In a nutshell, there is no empirical evidence proving that Jesus did or did not die. As Muslims we believe the Quran is the word of God and therefore believe the account given of Jesus in the Quran is true.

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Ok in regards to your first post:

"and because they disbelieved and uttered a terrible

slander against Mary and said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus,

son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ They did not kill him, nor did

they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them;

those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge

to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him"

The Qur'an doesnt deny that people historically thought this to be true. Nor was it unknown to our Prophet Muhammad that christians believed in a Crucifixion.

In regards to your other claims, none of your four gospels actually can be traced back reliably to ANY Disciple, rather critical scholarship rejects that they are. So please, dont make blanket claims about something which most people can not check you on.

These words six centuries later are obsurd, just made up. God would be evil if he made it to appear that Jesus was killed to the disciples. God would never do that, but Satan would. There is no purpose to deceive the disciples, except for Satan there is a purpose to cast doubt on the crucifixion of Jesus, but ultimately Satan fails because there is no doubt, because all the evidence tells us Jesus died on the cross and the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Nothing can account for this so it is true.

There was nobody qualified to write Matthew than Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector and emphasized Jesus as king in Matthew. Nobody can fill the shoes of Mark who wrote Mark and even placed himself in the text running in the street naked. Luke definitely wrote Luke since he said Acts was part two of his former working with the opening statement to Theophilus in both accounts. And nobody at all was qualified to write John but John. John writes, placing himself at the cross with the women. Luke emphasized Jesus as a man, for Luke was a doctor. John the disciple whom Jesus loved most emphasized Jesus as God and full of love. Mark was very basic in his writing style and simple. He was fickle with Paul, and Paul didn't want to travel on a trip with him because he bailed out last time.

Most scholars can think of none else but these four men as the authors. People can check on all this that I have said. It's all common knowledge in the Scriptures.

There is very little historical evidence that Jesus even existed let alone how he died. The four gospels are the only source of information about Jesus, neither of which are considered historical nor are they eyewitness accounts. Furthermore, the number of contradictions amongst them renders them unreliable.

In a nutshell, there is no empirical evidence proving that Jesus did or did not die. As Muslims we believe the Quran is the word of God and therefore believe the account given of Jesus in the Quran is true.

Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. There are more sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death than any ten figures combined. If you think this is a lack of evidence then you will have to deny the existence of everyone in antiquity. I don't know any historians who takes your approach. His death is also well recorded. More than half of the 45 sources speak of his death, and 24 of them speak of his resurrection.

All the NT is the primary source for Jesus, not just the gospels. For example, Paul said he saw Jesus and spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James on more than one occassion. It's safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul recounts the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that he said he received from them, giving it in creedal form 1 Cor. 15. Most scholars place his meeting with James and Peter within 5 years after the cross.

Historians take the entire NT like any other historical document and glean what facts they can from it. And there are no contradictions in the Bible.

In short, we have more than ample documentation for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus meeting standards far in excess of what is normally used as a historical document for antiquity in depth, breadth and number of sources. Since there is no evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross and nobody even suggested it in the first two centuries, it's not an issue. There are several cults out there that take the approach Islam takes, but that's what make a cult is to have no evidence.

The Qu'ran is irrelevant since you can't come along six centuries later without any evidence. God would be evil to ask you to believe so blindly so I am sure it is Satan's work.

"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain." (Quran - Surah 4:157)

Since the disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, but they didn't lie and Jesus didn't lie, then the liar must be the Qu'ran, since God would not deceive the disciples. That's something Satan would try to do.

Edited by noselfwilling

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1) These words six centuries later are obsurd, just made up. God would be evil if he made it to appear that Jesus was killed to the disciples. God would never do that, but Satan would. There is no purpose to deceive the disciples, except for Satan there is a purpose to cast doubt on the crucifixion of Jesus, but ultimately Satan fails because there is no doubt, because all the evidence tells us Jesus died on the cross and the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Nothing can account for this so it is true.

2) There was nobody qualified to write Matthew than Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector and emphasized Jesus as king in Matthew. Nobody can fill the shoes of Mark who wrote Mark and even placed himself in the text running in the street naked. Luke definitely wrote Luke since he said Acts was part two of his former working with the opening statement to Theophilus in both accounts. And nobody at all was qualified to write John but John. John writes, placing himself at the cross with the women. Luke emphasized Jesus as a man, for Luke was a doctor. John the disciple whom Jesus loved most emphasized Jesus as God and full of love. Mark was very basic in his writing style and simple. He was fickle with Paul, and Paul didn't want to travel on a trip with him because he bailed out last time.

Most scholars can think of none else but these four men as the authors. People can check on all this that I have said. It's all common knowledge in the Scriptures.

3) Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. There are more sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death than any ten figures combined. If you think this is a lack of evidence then you will have to deny the existence of everyone in antiquity. I don't know any historians who takes your approach. His death is also well recorded. More than half of the 45 sources speak of his death, and 24 of them speak of his resurrection.

4) All the NT is the primary source for Jesus, not just the gospels. For example, Paul said he saw Jesus and spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James on more than one occassion. It's safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul recounts the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that he said he received from them, giving it in creedal form 1 Cor. 15. Most scholars place his meeting with James and Peter within 5 years after the cross.

Historians take the entire NT like any other historical document and glean what facts they can from it. And there are no contradictions in the Bible.

In short, we have more than ample documentation for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus meeting standards far in excess of what is normally used as a historical document for antiquity in depth, breadth and number of sources. Since there is no evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross and nobody even suggested it in the first two centuries, it's not an issue. There are several cults out there that take the approach Islam takes, but that's what make a cult is to have no evidence.

The Qu'ran is irrelevant since you can't come along six centuries later without any evidence. God would be evil to ask you to believe so blindly so I am sure it is Satan's work.

Since the disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, but they didn't lie and Jesus didn't lie, then the liar must be the Qu'ran, since God would not deceive the disciples. That's something Satan would try to do.

1) Six Centuries later has no baring on the situation what so ever, you for example accept a doctrine which has not explicitly articulated until thousands of years after the first five books of the Old Testament, so lets not conflate an issue that will have the same consequences when applied to your beliefs. On another note, I am not claiming Allah (SWT)/God decieved anyone, nor caused an illusion. So lets not add strawmen arguments to the equation please.

2) Perhaps so, lets reiterate, you have no evidence from any witnesses extant. If you would like to claim you do, quote some unbiased objective scholars saying you have evidence of what the disciples believed and that the Gospels are evidence in this regard. In fact, lets apply some good old historical criticism to your bible.

I believe even if we were to concede for the sake of argument that the Gospels are historically accurate (which I wont and I'll demonstrate why), the resurrection of Jesus would be no miracle what so ever in comparisson to the following claim:

Matthew 27:52-53

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Bare in mind my friend this occured in Jerusalem the Capital city of the Jewish entity known as Israel. Now since they appeared to many people, we will certainly expect some secular jewish documentation on this issue.

Bring us some evidence ascertaining that such a dynamic shocking event occured and we will take your Gospels as historically viable. Until that time, please bring us history and not fiction.

3) Not our discussion at this point, since we accept Jesus existed. As for the documentation on his death, again this affirms the Qur'anic statement that the people came to believe such.

4) lol, we're not going to take Paul seriously at all.

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1) Six Centuries later has no baring on the situation what so ever, you for example accept a doctrine which has not explicitly articulated until thousands of years after the first five books of the Old Testament, so lets not conflate an issue that will have the same consequences when applied to your beliefs. On another note, I am not claiming Allah (SWT)/God decieved anyone, nor caused an illusion. So lets not add strawmen arguments to the equation please.

I am not sure of what doctrine you are talking about thousands of years later. The books were written when the events took place and the Jews were looking for their Messiah that would atone for sins (Is. 53). "It was made to appear..." is your Allah deceiving them. But that's Satan for God would not deceive them. There is no indication they were deceived. They did not lie, Jesus did not, so who lied but Allah or Muhammad?

2) Perhaps so, lets reiterate, you have no evidence from any witnesses extant. If you would like to claim you do, quote some unbiased objective scholars saying you have evidence of what the disciples believed and that the Gospels are evidence in this regard. In fact, lets apply some good old historical criticism to your bible.

There are no original surviving copies for anything in antiquity, Papyri gets old and needs to be copied. The Bible goes through the witnesses. Peter is a witness, James is a witness, Paul is a witness, John is a witness. All the original disciples believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead. Paul even said of the 500 anyone of them could come forward if Paul was not teaching what was originaly taught.

Gary R. Habermas is way ahead of you. He has taken all the scholars from 1975, and they almost all agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation to account for this. Virtually 100% agree Jesus died on the cross so Islam is considered of no account.

I believe even if we were to concede for the sake of argument that the Gospels are historically accurate (which I wont and I'll demonstrate why), the resurrection of Jesus would be no miracle what so ever in comparisson to the following claim:

Matthew 27:52-53

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Just as God raised Jesus from the dead so He raised some from their graves. One thing to learn is you don't even have to worry about the inerrancy of the Bible, but just focus on what most scholars agree that the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

Bare in mind my friend this occured in Jerusalem the Capital city of the Jewish entity known as Israel. Now since they appeared to many people, we will certainly expect some secular jewish documentation on this issue.

There may have been but it did not survive. Apparently people die all the time and scratch out of their graves so it is not something to write about.

Bring us some evidence ascertaining that such a dynamic shocking event occured and we will take your Gospels as historically viable. Until that time, please bring us history and not fiction.

Such a demand is unreasonable. Matt. 27.52-53 could be false and would have no bearing on the eyewitness testimony of the original disciples. You demand evidence for secondary matters yet you need no evidence six centuries later to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross? That's an unethical doublestandard not treating others as you would like to be treated.

3) Not our discussion at this point, since we accept Jesus existed. As for the documentation on his death, again this affirms the Qur'anic statement that the people came to believe such.

You are not reading the Qu'ran properly, it doesn't say "came to" but it "It was made to appear...", but that is evil to deceive the disciples. Since the disciples believed they had seen and talked with Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, that Jesus didn't lie, and God the Father wouldn't lie then we know it was Muhammad and Allah that are liars, the father of lies.

4) lol, we're not going to take Paul seriously at all.

You should because over 99% of scholars agree that Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which he said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James and John, he recounted in creedal form the gospel message from them and various resurrection appearances. No scholar doubts this authenticity of Paul's testimony.

Edited by noselfwilling

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I am not sure of what doctrine you are talking about thousands of years later. The books were written when the events took place and the Jews were looking for their Messiah that would atone for sins (Is. 53). "It was made to appear..." is your Allah deceiving them. But that's Satan for God would not deceive them. There is no indication they were deceived. They did not lie, Jesus did not, so who lied but Allah or Muhammad?

There are no original surviving copies for anything in antiquity, Papyri gets old and needs to be copied. The Bible goes through the witnesses. Peter is a witness, James is a witness, Paul is a witness, John is a witness. All the original disciples believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead. Paul even said of the 500 anyone of them could come forward if Paul was not teaching what was originaly taught.

Gary R. Habermas is way ahead of you. He has taken all the scholars from 1975, and they almost all agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Nobody has been able to find a naturalistic explanation to account for this. Virtually 100% agree Jesus died on the cross so Islam is considered of no account.

Just as God raised Jesus from the dead so He raised some from their graves. One thing to learn is you don't even have to worry about the inerrancy of the Bible, but just focus on what most scholars agree that the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There may have been but it did not survive. Apparently people die all the time and scratch out of their graves so it is not something to write about.

Such a demand is unreasonable. Matt. 27.52-53 could be false and would have no bearing on the eyewitness testimony of the original disciples. You demand evidence for secondary matters yet you need no evidence six centuries later to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross? That's an unethical doublestandard not treating others as you would like to be treated.

You are not reading the Qu'ran properly, it doesn't say "came to" but it "It was made to appear...", but that is evil to deceive the disciples. Since the disciples believed they had seen and talked with Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, that Jesus didn't lie, and God the Father wouldn't lie then we know it was Muhammad and Allah that are liars, the father of lies.

You should because over 99% of scholars agree that Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which he said he spent 15 days with Peter, with James and John, he recounted in creedal form the gospel message from them and various resurrection appearances. No scholar doubts this authenticity of Paul's testimony.

Ok amazing, I ask for Scholarship and you bring me Gary Habermas some evangelical christian nice one, Mike Licona is better than this guy and even Mike Licona's job at proving the resurrection flunks.

Amazing also, you have debunked any credibility of your source by admitting and conceding the following, which shows your logic and the foundations of your faith to us all:

There may have been but it did not survive. Apparently people die all the time and scratch out of their graves so it is not something to write about.

Such a demand is unreasonable. Matt. 27.52-53 could be false and would have no bearing on the eyewitness testimony of the original disciples. You demand evidence for secondary matters yet you need no evidence six centuries later to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross? That's an unethical doublestandard not treating others as you would like to be treated.

As for the deception point, again I've renumerated that I dont believe Allah (SWT) decieved anyone or tricked anyone, so your argument is strawman.

Lastly, I was referring to trinity when I said that you believe in a doctrine not explicitly mentioned in the O.T

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Yes, not only did He say He would die on the cross and raise Himself the 3rd day

In answer to the Pharisees' challenge to produce a miracle, Jesus said in Mark8:11-13 that they will be given none, since prophets never produced miracles in answer to the disbelievers' whims as confirmed in the Quran.

However in Matt12:39, the author of that Gospel adds that these Pharisees will be given only one miracle "the sign of the prophet Jonah", ie rising on the 3rd day like Jonah came out of the fish's belly alive on the 3rd day. Besides the fact that, per the gospels themselves, Jesus never appeared to those Pharisees who were supposed to be given that specific sign, you need to explain the failed analogy that Matthew's author attempted since Jesus allegedly died on that cross (he had to for the sacrifice to be a valid blood offering) yet Jonah remained alive inside the fish.

Other things you will need to explain are the internal discrepencies among the Gospels writers as they relate that "miracle" and when did this 3 days sign that was aimed at the Pharisees actually happen.

Matt26:20-30,Mark14:17-25,Luke22:14-23 all agree that the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder (Ritual during which the Jews remember the exodus, pray and eat specific foods). Jesus was crucified on the very next day following the Last Supper meaning on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan (for example, if tonight were a Passover Seder, then tomorrow would be the first day of Passover). John's unknown author completely contradicts this by stating that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan Jn19:14-16. This important discrepency revealing great confusion surrounding this event cannot be explained throught the "different perspectives of the Gospel writers" argument. Jesus could not have been crucified on both days. For this reason, John's account of the Last Supper Jn13 does not include the rites of a Passover Seder as the drinking of wine, or eating matzo and herbs as we find in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Also, according to John, when Judas Iscariot leaves the Last Supper with the moneybag, the disciples immediately presume that he is taking money to purchase food for the festive meal Jn13:29. Whereas, according to the first three Gospels,they had just eaten it.

Again in Jn18:28 the Jews who were handing Jesus over to Pontius Pilate to be crucified on the morning of the crucifixion did not enter the headquarter "so as to avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover" whereas according to the 3 other Gospels they had already eaten it because the Passover Seder took place the previous night, which is why Matthew, Mark, and Luke do not mention the fear the Jews had of entering the home of Pilate. This discrepency is due to John, being the only one identifying Jesus with the atoning lamb, trying to reconcile the command in the Torah to slaughter the Paschal lamb on the eve of Passover or on the 14th day of Nissan (Exodus12:6).

Something else you need to explain is that, as already said above, to fulfill Jonah's miracle, Jesus had to spend 3days/3nights in earth without dying and be saved by God through his prayers. If Jonah's miracle was fulfilled it means Jesus never died on the cross and was saved which would in turn completely invalidate the blood offering for the atonement of sins. Take your pick.

Also, certain Gospels say he was crucified on friday or "good friday" then burried friday night. When Mary Magdalene arrived at the grave on sunday morning, after the Sabbath Jesus wasnt in the grave Mk16:1-6. So he spent a total of 1 day, 2 nights in the grave contradicting Jonah's prophecy of 3days/3nights.

As regaards to the crucifixion itself, the conflicting testimonies of the evangelists in Matt28:1-10,Mk16:1-20,Luke24:1-12,Jn20:1-18 are so unreliable, they would not stand up to critical cross-examination in any court of law. There isnt even a 1st hand testimony to the event, the disciples never witnessed the crucifixion. Matthew & Luke's unknown authors dont claim being eye witnesses. John's unknown author vaguely refers to John in the 3rd person during the resurection account, and doesnt claim to be a witness to the event. Paul's 500 witnesses to the risen Jesus 1Cor15 isnt reported by the gospels, the Jewish historian Josephus, Roman historians, and early Christian writers. None of those 500 witnesses ever came forward to give testimony to what they allegedly saw neither. He also says Jesus apeared to the 12 while Judas had comitted suicide before the event. In fact, there is virtually not one detail of the crucifixion and resurrection narratives upon which all four Gospel authors agree. Yet, it is upon this story that the entire Christian religion stands or falls. Even the date of the crucifixion is an issue of contention among the four Gospels.

A few examples:

In Matthew28, the 2 Marys are greeted by an angel who shows them the empty tomb where Jesus laid, inform them of his resurrection and instructs them that they are to tell the disciples that Jesus had gone before them to the Galilee to meet them. Further, both Marys unexpectedly meet the resurrected Jesus himself, he repeats the angel's instructions to them, and sends the women to inform the disciples that they are to meet him in the Galilee.

In John20, when Mary Magdalene comes to the tomb, there is no angel there to greet her with information about Jesus' whereabouts or instructions about a rendezvous in the Galilee. She thus concludes that someone had removed the body from the grave, runs back to Peter and an unnamed disciple and reports, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him!" Also, John's story lacks the Roman guards whom Matthew places at the tomb to prevent anyone from removing Jesus' body. How could John's Mary have thought that someone removed the body, when according to Matthew, Roman soldiers were placed at the tomb for the specific purpose of preventing just such an occurrence? She then returns a second time to the tomb, and finds 2 angels sitting inside it. They say nothing about any resurrection. So she inquires as to whether the angels have removed Jesus' body, turns around only to see Jesus standing before her. She doesnt recognize him at first, only after talking to him.

In Luke24, several women accompanied Mary Magdalene on her visit to the tomb, find it empty then suddenly see two men with shining garments who inform them of the resurrection. The women then go to the male disciples and tell them what happened at the tomb. They don't believe them, but Peter goes to the tomb anyway, finds it empty, and then leaves. Thus, in this gospel's account, nobody sees Jesus during the initial visits to the tomb contrary to Matthew and John's accounts. Two of his followers, Cleopas and one unindentified, do meet him later in Jerusalem's vicinity without recognizing him at first. Jesus joins them for dinner and vanishes as soon as they recognize him. Luke says nothing about Jesus appearing first to the women.

In 1Corinthians15, Paul states that among the disciples Peter saw the risen Jesus first while in Matthew, John's accounts he appears to the disciples together. Paul does not speak of Jesus' appearance to the women first.

The usual Christian argument that it is the same story from different perspective doesnt hold water, not only because of the major discrepencies but also because the Gospel writers who allege themselves to be the disciples were not eyewitnesses, they didn't even write their accounts of the story until at least 40-70 years after it allegedly took place.

Philo of Alexandria (20 B.C.E.-50 C.E.), a renowned Jewish philosopher and a contemporary of Jesus, wrote extensively about his time. Yet his entire corpus of works fails to mention a word regarding Jesus or his alleged resurrection. Josephus' silence on this matter is also deafening. Aside from the accounts in the New Testament, there is no independent supportive documentation, nor is there any circumstantial evidence. There is not even one contemporaneous historian who mentions one word about the resurrection. The entire claim hangs exclusively on the New Testament texts.

Another interesting question to ask is, where was JEsus between his crucifixion and resurrection? Was he in heaven, in accordance with his promise to the crucified thief that Lk23:43"today you shall be with me in paradise?" If so, how can we account for his post-resurrection statement to Mary Magdalene Jn20:17"touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"?

The Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest known manuscript of the NT and in the gospel of Mark, it doesnt mention anything about the resurrection. In the manuscript, the gospel of Mark stops abruptly at verse 16:8, right after the discovery of the empty tomb. The last 12 verses describing Jesus' resurrection and his appearance to the disciples were added later. Considering that Mark is regarded to be the earliest and most reliable gospel, and most likely one of the primary sources for the Gospels of both Matthew and Luke, it becomes apparent that the addition of these 12 verses could have had a monumental effect.

Eusebius and Jerome explicitly state that almost all the Greek MSS available to them end at verse 8:

Eusebius Ad Marinum 1 - "How is it that in Matthew the Savior, after having been raised, appears 'late on the Sabbath' but in Mark 'Early on the first day of the week'? The Solution to this might be twofold. For, on the one hand, the one who rejects the passage itself, namely the pericope which says this, might say that it does not appear in all the copies of the Gospel according to Mark. At any rate, the accurate ones of the copies define the end of the history according to Mark with the words of the young man who appeared to the women and said to them, 'Do not fear. You are seeking Jesus the Nazarene' and the words that follow. In addition to these it says, 'And having heard this they fled and they said nothing to anyone for they were afraid.' For in this way the ending of the Gospel according to Mark is defined in nearly all the copies."

Jerome 120 to Hedybia Concerning Twelve Questions 3 - "The solution to the question [of why the endings of Mark and Matthew contradict one another] is twofold. Either we do not receive the testimony of Mark, which appears scarsely in copies of the gospel, while almost all books in Greek do not have this pericope at the end..."

In Contra Celsus, probably Origen's most famous work, Origen tries (unsuccessfully) to defend the assertions of Christianity, including the most important assertion, that Jesus resurrected. He quotes detail citations from Matthew, Luke and John to support the resurrection as he was specifically challenged to produce post-resurrection evidence yet he doesnt mention anything beyond Mark16:8 while he was the most outstanding Christian manuscript expert of his time and when post-resurrection evidence would potentially be the best evidence available to support Christianity.

The NIV bible also comments "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20"

Another ending to Mark, called the Shorter Ending is found in an Old Latin manuscript of Mark. Six 7th to 10th century Greek manuscripts and some Syriac, Sahidic, Bohairic and Ethiopic manuscripts have this shorter ending either in the margin or between 16:8 and 16:9, with minor variations. One Bohairic manuscript, made in 1174, accompanies Mark 16:9-20 with the note, "This is the chapter expelled from the Greek."

Codex Vaticanus (mid-4th century), Syriacus (5thcentury translation), Bobiensis (4th-5thcentury Latin), approximately 100 early Armenian translations, and the two oldest Georgian translations are all early manuscripts that exclude the resurrection.

Roman Catholics are not required to believe that Mark wrote this longer ending. The NAB translation includes the footnote:

[9-20] This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent. Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark. It is a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, reflecting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20.
God would be evil if he made it to appear that Jesus was killed to the disciples

It doesnt say it appeared so the the Christians, it appeared so to those who claimed to have killed him.

What the Quran says is this. It declares in 4:157-158 that even though the Jews claim to have killed the messenger of God, yet in reality this is not what happened, he was not crucified NOR KILLED. It is not giving any weight to the crucifixion story nor to any other way the disbelievers attempted at Jesus' life and they did attempt many ways 5:110 but Jesus, the messenger sent with an undeniable manifestation of the Truth was protected by Allah.

The rejection of Jesus by his people and family, the claim he was a sorcerer or a madman demon possessed Quran5:110,Jn7:5,20,Jn8:52,Mk3:21 is what is relevant to the Quran, because the very opposition Muhammad was facing 25:7-8 was the same opposition other Prophets faced 17:101, including Prophets who were granted such manifest miracles like Jesus. The Quran in 4:157-8 is refuting the bragging, sarcasm of some Bani Israel and their claims. This whole matter appeared to them so because, among other reasons, Jesus was missing. God lifted him up and did not leave a trace of him with them yet even without proof for their claims, they managed to start a rumor that quickly spread and was believed. A confusion similar to that of the rumor of the prophet Muhammad's death during the battle of Uhud 3:144, and easily understandable in the midst of the 100s of daily Roman crucifixions and executions of any agitators to the point that they would sometimes run out of wood for the crosses.

4:157-158 then states that those who differ on what is stated in the verse about Jesus not having being killed are in shakkin/suspicion about that very statement. It then goes on to say why Christians entertain shakkin/suspicion about the Quranic statement that Jesus was not killed: they have formed a wrong conclusion about events that they themselves had no knowledge about and are following nothing but a conjecture, a legend that appeared after Jesus' end on earth and started by those Bani Israel contemporaries and enemies of Jesus. Some claimed to have killed him and others that they crucified him yet they had no body to prove their lies, no trace of Jesus was ever found, and this grew into a legend which crept into the Gospels.

Modern (biblical) scholarship highly questions the authorship of Mark, John, Luke, Matthew. Further the NT itself states that the apostles who are reporting the events of Jesus' crucifixion and public humiliation, never witnessed those particular events. Therefore the responsibility for believing with "no knowledge" what the Quran refers to as a "conjecture" rests on the Christians themselves and their lack of religious criticism...4:157"they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture".

Edited by Nad_M

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Modern (biblical) scholarship highly questions the authorship of Mark, John, Luke, Matthew. Further the NT itself states that the apostles who are reporting the events of Jesus' crucifixion and public humiliation, never witnessed those particular events. Therefore the responsibility for believing with "no knowledge" what the Quran refers to as a "conjecture" rests on the Christians themselves and their lack of religious criticism...4:157"they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture".

Modern Biblical scholarship is virtually unanimous none else but Matthew could have written Matthew, Mark written Mark, Luke written Luke and John written Lue.

John places himself at the cross with the women.

Since all we have is evidence for the death of Jesus in over half of the sources on Jesus, and nothing to the contrary, no credible historial would consider anything Qu'ran would have to say six centuries later. Historians give weight to the primary sources, that being, the sources in the first century only.

The Qu'ran would need some very substantial evidence. It has nothing. It's just conjecture by some guy in a cave all by himself who refused to give his life to Christ and didn't read the Bible very carefully.

Hence the Qu'ran is not of God.

Edited by noselfwilling

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John places himself at the cross with the women

Even though Jn19:25-27 mentions a disciple being near Jesus at the cross, there is no proof that that unnamed disciple (mentionned in the 3rd person by the way, why would John mention himself in the 3rd person?) is John the son of Zebedee. That traditional interpretation is still a matter of dispute among scholars. Also, the other gospels dont mention a "disciple whom Jesus loved". They also say nothing about any disciple or any women being near the cross, or talking with Jesus while he was on the cross. The other Gospels only mention a group of women watching the scene from a distant place. Unlike his male followers, these women would probably have been allowed to watch without being arrested, provided that they didn't try to interfere. Execution sites were guarded by Romans who would certainly not allow access to the followers and accomplices of one who was supposedly executed for being a political agitator that could threaten the state Matt27:37,Mk15:26,Luke23:38,Jn19:19-22. During the years when Jesus was growing up, many people believed that the End Times necessary for the appearance of the warrior king Messiah per the OT had already arrived, and that this liberator would soon organize a revolt against the hated Romans and drive them out of the country. The Romans were fully aware of this and were constantly on the look out for rebel leaders and their accomplices in a time where uprisings against the state were more frequent in Palestine than any other part of the Empire.

This is why Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone he is the Messiah Matt16:20, and why at the time of his arrest by the Romans and with the complicity of the Jewish leaders, all of Jesus' close apostles are reported to have fled with Peter even denying he knew Jesus 3 times, because Jesus and his close followers were now outlaws wanted by the state.

There are various theories on the identiy of that unknown and unnamed male disciple "whom Jesus loved" that allegedly stood near Jesus on the cross. He was most likely the eyewitness who recounted the event to the several unknown writers of the Gospel of John, as attested by the text Jn21:24"This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true"

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Is this guy for real?

@OP: Have a read http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234970870-banned-members/page__view__findpost__p__2004693

Your strawman tactics are amusing. I was beginning to think that only wahabbis/salafis are showing up on this forum these days, but you proved me wrong.

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Definitely the disciple is John that is at the cross with Jesus since it is only John that knows this incident since he wrote the book of John. He even speaks of himself as that disciple in the 3rd person whom Peter was enquiring about.

So anyway the crux of the issue is we have lots of evidence for Jesus' dying the cross. People are allowed to go to the cross such as the women and impart it to others and so this is how they know. This is why the women went to the tomb because Jesus had died on the cross. This is why Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus took his body to the tomb because he died on the cross.

Of the 45 sources we have of Jesus within 150 years of His death over half of them speak of his death. And 24 of them speak of his resurrection. Amazing.

The Qu'ran has no credibility coming along six centuries later without evidence claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. This is how you know the Qu'ran is not of God.

You've been lied to by Muslims.

Edited by noselfwilling

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noselfwilling

Why are you wasting our time? If you wanna preach Christianity then this isn’t place to do so. Most of us here a Muslims and we take Jesus (as) son of Mary as a Prophet. And according to the Quran, he didn’t die on the cross.

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noselfwilling

Why are you wasting our time? If you wanna preach Christianity then this isn’t place to do so. Most of us here a Muslims and we take Jesus (as) son of Mary as a Prophet. And according to the Quran, he didn’t die on the cross.

God bless him. He clearly has a pure intention.

noselfwilling I suggest you be more active in the Christianity/Judaism/Islam Dialogue forum

Wassalam

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(salam)

God bless him. He clearly has a pure intention.

I doubt.

The Qu'ran has no credibility coming along six centuries later without evidence claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. This is how you know the Qu'ran is not of God.

You've been lied to by Muslims.

Just a reminder since you are new, here is the link to SC rules and regulations

The following rules apply in both the Forum and the Chatroom.

• Blasphemy of any kind towards Allah (sw), Prophet Muhammad (saww), the Ahlul-Bayt and any Prophet of Allah, shall be met with a permanent ban from this site. No warning is necessary.

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Just because context is always a good part of any passage, let's take a look.

4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting GOD's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, GOD is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

[4:156] (They are condemned) for disbelieving and uttering about Mary a gross lie. [4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

[4:160] Due to their transgressions, we prohibited for the Jews good foods that used to be lawful for them; also for consistently repelling from the path of GOD.

[4:161] And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. [4:162] As for those among them who are well founded in knowledge, and the believers, they believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you. They are observers of the Contact Prayers (Salat), and givers of the obligatory charity (Zakat); they are believers in GOD and the Last Day. We grant these a great recompense.

What I noticed first is that the entire Sura is directed at the Jews. What's the chance that the Sura takes a break from the context to site 157 and 158 for the sake of Christians? Then goes back to bashing the Jews?

Quite clearly the Jews "boasted" they killed Jesus. Hey, they brought Him in. They yelled "crucify him" They saw him on a cross, they saw him dead. Sure looked like they killed him, but did they? Obviously their boasting was conjecture, and obviously they didn't know what they were talking about, because they didn't kill Jesus.

So now, who agrees the Jews did not kill Jesus?

For one thing it was the Romans that did the killing in those days, but more than that...

It's recorded that Jesus called out to God, "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" Rather than dying the death of a crucifixion, God took His spirit unto Himself. This is confirmed later on when the soldiers came to break the legs of the three being crucified. Breaking their legs took away all support so suffocation was inevitable. They saw Jesus was dead already so instead they stabbed him and out came blood and water, or would it have been blood separated into platelets , red blood cells and plasma?

So where does that leave us? As I see it, half way between the NT and the Quran with nobody being totally wrong.

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noselfwilling

Why are you wasting our time? If you wanna preach Christianity then this isn’t place to do so. Most of us here a Muslims and we take Jesus (as) son of Mary as a Prophet. And according to the Quran, he didn’t die on the cross.

Just curious to see if you could find some evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross. I guess you can't. God would never ask you to believe in something that goes against the evidence and without any evidence to have faith in Allah.

The Bible says "prove all things". This is quite a different than what you worship.

I believe Satan tries to get us to believe things without evidence, so sin begets sin and to believe other lies on top of that.

It's recorded that Jesus called out to God, "into Thy hands I commit my spirit" Rather than dying the death of a crucifixion, God took His spirit unto Himself.

This was the dead on the cross. The cross is the too of crucifixion.

Your words are modalistic when you said, "God took His Spirit unto Himself". That's wrong. Modalim is the heresy of confusing the Son for the Father and calling the Godhead a Person rather than 3 Persons.

God the Son gave up His spirit, that is, the life that he lives by in the body fashioned in the likeness of men. It is not the Father's spirit. The Father has His own spirit. The Son has His own spirit. And the Spirit His own spirit. The Godhead is a Trinity. Each Person is co-equal and co-inherent. This is way to explain God's complexity in a way we can't quite grasp but we know is true because Jesus made Himself equal with the Father, did the perfect will of the Father as only God could do, and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers (Christians).

Jesus was going down to the good side of Hades, Abraham's bosom, in soul sleep when he gave up his spirit to God's control what the Jews called Paradise below in contraist to Paradise above.

He met the repentant thief there.

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Just curious to see if you could find some evidence that Jesus didn't die on the cross. I guess you can't. God would never ask you to believe in something that goes against the evidence and without any evidence to have faith in Allah.

Matthew 27:52-53

The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Then BRING for us evidence of the above, if you fail to do so your entire case fails. Bare in mind how shocking this would have been.

Should you fail to produce evidence of such, your entire faith is in vain and based on shifty history. And your argument backfires on yourself and as is said:

Inconsistensy is the sign of a failed argument.

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Matt. 27.52-53 People came out of their graves. That's why it was reported they did so. This fulfills the prophecy, "Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel" (Ez. 3.7/12).

By the way, however you want to interpret this or even if it is wrong doesn't matter because it is a secondary matter. Deal with what really matters...

We know Allah is Satan because God is not a deceiver. God would not have deceived the disciples and besides, group hallucinations are impossible.

Islam has no credibility, because no historian considers some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later that disagrees with what is so firmly proven in so many multiply corroborated sources that Jesus died on the cross.

A loving God provides evidence and would never ask you to believe in blindly what Muhammad said. Muhammad is going to Hell with Allah Satan.

Since the disciples didn't lie, the writers of the NT didn't lie, Jesus didn't lie to the disciples and God the Father is not a deceiver, then you know Muhammad is a liar or deceived or both, and Satan the father of lies is Allah, a liar and a deceiver.

Repent and give your life to Christ. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior and so shall you be saved.

Oh about that snake. It's a technique to make the snake act like a rod. Indians know how ot do it. Basically they tickle behind the snakes head and he goes still as a rod.

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of The One GOD, Allah, The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful. As salaamu 'alaikum, The peace be upon you, everyone.

~ The Restored New Testament

There was nobody qualified to write Matthew than Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector and emphasized Jesus as king in Matthew.

Chapter 14

Jesus, seeing that great was the multitude of them that returned to their heart for to walk in the law of God, went up into the mountain, and abode all night in prayer, and when day was come he descended from the mountain, and chose twelve, whom he called apostles, among whom is Judas, who was slain upon the cross. Their names are: Andrew and peter his brother, fishermen; Barnabas, who wrote this, with Matthew the publican, who sat at the receipt of custom; John and James, sons of Zebedee; Thaddaeus and Judas; Bartholomew and Philip; James, and Judas Iscariot the traitor. To these he always revealed the divine secrets; but the Iscariot Judas he made his dispenser of that which was given in alms, but he stole the tenth part of everything.

Posted 07 February 2011 - 04:33 AM

Yes, not only did He say He would die on the cross and raise Himself the 3rd day, but He did it which is well testified.

Since the disciples truly believed in the heart of hearts they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, and group hallucinations are impossible, then we know Jesus really resurreced Himself proving He is God and salvation is only through Him.

Chapter 118

Then Jesus said: "You speak the truth, for now was Israel desirous to establish the idolatry that they have in their hearts, in holding me for God, many of whom have now despised my teaching, saying that I could make myself lord of all Judea, if I confessed myself to be God, and that I am mad to wish to live in poverty among desert places, and not abide continually among princes in delicate living. Oh hapless man, that prizes the light that is common to flies and ants and despises the light that is common only to angels and prophets and holy friends of God!

Chapter 217

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked, for the greater ignominy. Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

These words six centuries later are obsurd, just made up. God would be evil if he made it to appear that Jesus was killed to the disciples. God would never do that, but Satan would. There is no purpose to deceive the disciples, except for Satan there is a purpose to cast doubt on the crucifixion of Jesus, but ultimately Satan fails because there is no doubt, because all the evidence tells us Jesus died on the cross and the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Nothing can account for this so it is true.

Chapter 220

Jesus replied, embracing his mother: 'Believe me, mother, for truly I say to you that I have not been dead at all; for God has reserved me till near the end of the world.' And having said this he prayed the four angels that they would manifest themselves, and give testimony how the matter had passed.

Thereupon the angels manifested themselves like four shining suns, insomuch that through fear every one again fell down as dead. Then Jesus gave four linen cloths to the angels that they might cover themselves, in order that they might be seen and heard to speak by his mother and her companions. And having lifted up each one, he comforted them, saying: 'These are the ministers of God: Gabriel, who announces God's secrets; Michael, who fights against God's enemies; Rafael, who receives the souls of them that die; and Uriel, who will call every one to the judgment of God at the last day. Then the four angels narrated to the Virgin how God had sent for Jesus, and had transformed Judas, that he might suffer the punishment to which he had sold another.

Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.' Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'

Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell. And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad;, the Messenger ;of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

noselfwilling

noselfwilling

noselfwilling
Edited by Faithfully999

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Barnabas 5:1 For to this end the Lord endured to deliver His flesh untocorruption, that by the remission of sins we might be cleansed, whichcleansing is through the blood of His sprinkling. Barnabas 5:2For the scripture concerning Him containeth some things relating toIsrael, and some things relating to us. And it speaketh thus; Hewas wounded for your transgressions, and He hath been bruised forour sins; by His stripes we were healed. As a sheep He was led toslaughter, as a lamb is dumb before his shearer. Barnabas 5:3We ought therefore to be very thankful unto the Lord, for that Heboth revealed unto us the past, and made us wise in the present, andas regards the future we are not without understanding. Barnabas 5:4Now the scripture saith; Not unjustly is the net spread for thebirds. He meaneth this that a man shall justly perish, who havingthe knowledge of the way of righteousness forceth himself into theway of darkness. Barnabas 5:5There is yet this also, my brethren; if the Lord endured to sufferfor our souls, though He was Lord of the whole world, unto whom Godsaid from the foundation of the world, Let us make man after ourimage and likeness, how then did He endure to suffer at the handof men? Barnabas 5:6Understand ye. The prophets, receiving grace from Him, prophesiedconcerning Him. But He Himself endured that He might destroy deathand show forth the resurrection of the dead, for that He must needsbe manifested in the flesh; Barnabas 5:7that at the same time He might redeem the promise made to thefathers, and by preparing the new people for Himself might show,while He was on earth, that having brought about the resurrection Hewill Himself exercise judgment. Barnabas 5:8Yea and further, He preached teaching Israel and performing so manywonders and miracles, and He loved him exceedingly. Barnabas 5:9And when He chose His own apostles who were to proclaim His Gospel,who that He might show that He came not to call the righteous butsinners were sinners above every sin, then He manifested Himselfto be the Son of God. Barnabas 5:10For if He had not come in the flesh neither would men have lookedupon Him and been saved, forasmuch as when they look upon the sunthat shall cease to be, which is the work of His own hands, theycannot face its rays. Barnabas 5:11Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He mightsum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecutedand slew His prophets. Barnabas 5:12To this end therefore He endured. For God saith of the wounds of Hisflesh that they came from them; When they shall smite their ownshepherd, then shall the sheep of the flock be lost. Barnabas 5:13But He Himself desired so to suffer; for it was necessary for Him tosuffer on a tree. For he that prophesied said concerning Him, SpareMy soul form the sword; and, Pierce My flesh with nails, for thecongregations of evil-doers have risen up against Me. Barnabas 5:14And again He saith; Behold I have given My back to stripes, and Mycheeks to smitings, and My face did I set as a hard rock.

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(salam)

I love talking about Prophet Isa(Jesus) with Christians because it's funny how they have so many books about him and yet we have a couple of ayat from the Quran that describe him 100x better.

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (Qur’an 3:59).

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)

In the Qur’an Allah quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, as saying:

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

Now read this:

In the day when Allah gathers together the messengers and says: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur’an 5:109-110)

Christian references:

I can of my own authority do nothing. (John 5:30)

They also forget the declaration of Peter:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22 KJV).

Back to the Qu'ran:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

Woe to the Christians after these clear statements from the Holly Qu'ran

May god help those who actually love Jesus but have been fed wrong information!

Edited by Abbas0

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So can anyone actually answer the original question and back it up? Thanks.

I guess you missed my post or something?

(salam)

I love talking about Prophet Isa(Jesus) with Christians because it's funny how they have so many books about him and yet we have a couple of ayat from the Quran that describe him 100x better.

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (Qur’an 3:59).

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)

In the Qur’an Allah quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, as saying:

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

Now read this:

In the day when Allah gathers together the messengers and says: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur’an 5:109-110)

Christian references:

I can of my own authority do nothing. (John 5:30)

They also forget the declaration of Peter:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22 KJV).

Back to the Qu'ran:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

Woe to the Christians after these clear statements from the Holly Qu'ran

May god help those who actually love Jesus but have been fed wrong information!

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I guess you missed my post or something?

Don't ya just hate it when that happens?

I love talking about Prophet Isa(Jesus) with Christians because it's funny how they have so many books about him and yet we have a couple of ayat from the Quran that describe him 100x better.

No use exagerating. A couple of ayats in a terabyte world is what you're dealing wit.h

Actually I added the Epistle of Barnabus as a contrast to the Gospel of Barnabus, (written apx.1000 yrs later). There's a lot more out there as well. Nothing to say they are all truthfull, or all wrong, so I have the same regards for them as you guys have for our scriptures. None the less, there are more out there that say Jesus died in a sacrificial way then don't so if we were to go by numbers...

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (Qur'an 3:59).

There is a huge relationship with Jesus and Adam. I find the Quran often explains, or points to things left unexplained in the NT, which is what the Quran claims to do. Muhammad had a lot more respect for the past scriptures than any Muslim I've met. I wonder why that is.

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur'an 19:88-93)

Y'know, this is so over rated. The "Son of God" is a term that goes all the way back to Adam. From a human perspective "it is not meet that..." for obvious reasons. Other than I believe God can do whatever He so chooses, whether Human understanding works or not, in human terms what should you call your creator? Christians chose the term "Father" and all Christians consider themselves "Children of God". We all know how humans are born, (not created), so is this simple analogy really a problem?

In the Qur'an Allah quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, as saying:

Really? That's a stretch. If anyone quoted Jesus it would have been Gabriel.

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur'an 3: 49-51).

This is an awesome quote, although I'll break it into three parts, if you don't mind. it's one that sheds light on the past scriptures. The clay into a bird is a topic unto itself.

In this quote Jesus plainly states His confirmation of the Torah, and adds making lawful what was forbidden.

If you would, please explain to me what was forbidden that is now lawful.

The third thing.

What other quotes of Jesus do you have that would instruct you on what obedience to Jesus means?

Now read this:

Yessir, right away.

In the day when Allah gathers together the messengers and says: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

Please explain. Just wondering the reasoning for gathering, (how many?) messengers, and asking (what would seem to be a simple question), yet the messengers, (Jesus included I assume) have no knowledge? I guess "response" must mean somethng outside of the obvious?

When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur'an 5:109-110)

Is there any other Prophet that Allah reminded of how many favours He had done for them? There are many miracles recorded pertaining to past Prophets but in every case it starts with "God commanded" Moses to raise his staff, "and the Red sea parted" for example. With Jesus there aren't many references to being commanded by God to do specifics.

I know Muslims try hard to believe that Jesus is nothng more than the rest of the Prophets, but this passage is really not your best defense. For one thing Muslims claim there are 124,000 prophets, most of which they've never had names for. There are 48 mentioned in the Bible, along with 7 Prophetesses. That basically makes Jesus 56th if gender specifics is not an issue for you. Does that mean there's been 123,944 prophets since? In my mind, if you have that many no-name prophets it really cheapens the whole concept. Anyway, setting aside the 123,943 we know nothing of, how many were known to bring back life? How many healed the sick, and disabled? How many could speak from the craddle?

How many formed a bird from clay, Breathed on it, (and by God's permission, of course) it flew away?

While on this subject, "Breathed on it" is bold because this is the same "breath" (Spirit of God) that was introduced to Adam, and to Mary. How would one know how to form clay into a being ready to sustain life? I think you'd have to be there, as Lagos was there for the creation of Adam, He was also the Spirit which indwelled Jesus. I believe that narrows down who Jesus was to a little less than the abilities of some 124,000. In other words, it's really hard to say Jesus was not a special Prophet, even by the Quran's standards.

Christian references:

I can of my own authority do nothing. (John 5:30)

They also forget the declaration of Peter:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22 KJV).

Yes, a man, not a God. Trinitarian Christians don't "forget", they are trained to skip past such references and concentrate on others. It's common amungst all religions and the reason for sects.

Back to the Qu'ran:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

This also happens in every religion. Don't say no until you explain how well in tune you are with Wahabis. Same Quran, derived from same religion, right?

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35)

I know the intent of these ayats are to prove that Jesus is neither God, nor Son of, but at the same time it's about the only place where the Quran says Jesus would die, (not how) and be raised again. Followed by a declaration that these facts of Jesus (died and raised) are absolute truth. Died and raised again? How many Prophets fit in that category?

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

This is one of those passages that confuses me. Why would God bother to ask of Jesus such a question? There is no past reference, (even in the NT) that Jesus ever said one should worship Him, nor His mother. The Quran says it is not meet that God would have a son, I'm thinking it is not meet that God would ask stupid questions. Enlighten me.

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

Interesting this ayat starts with "Christ" as Christ does not mean the same as Jesus and makes this a major contradiction within a dozen words. Is this possibly Quranic transliteral corruption? The Quran also calls Jesus the Messiah, which is a term much higher than "no more than a messenger", or "Prophet" for that matter..

Woe to the Christians after these clear statements from the Holly Qu'ran

Whoa to the Muslim who thinks they just cleared everything up.

May god help those who actually love Jesus but have been fed wrong information!

May God bless everyone who loves Jesus by their own understanding, (considering that absolute truth will never be known in this world).

So to answer Sunshine's question...No.

The Quran says Jesus would die and be raised again, as does the NT.

The original question is rhetorical.

Hi Sunshine! Good to see you in. Long time no see.

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(salam)

If you are willing to understand the truth and not read my posts biased as to you knowing already you don't want to believe, thing will get complicated.

I attended a Catholic school and love the Christians I was raised among. But dear god, some claimed Jesus was the son of God (literally) and our religion teacher(whom was Christian) claimed Jesus was god himself in a form of a human.

When you read "Allah" just translate it as "God".

Why is Islam the number one hated religion, but yet it's the fastest growing religion up to date? People need to understand that life went on after Jesus left. That's right left, not DIED!

They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.

(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)

Jesus (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).

In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says:

If you love me, Keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever.

(Bible, John 14-15/16)

But when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me, and he also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

(Bible, John 15-26/27)

Here's Mary(Mariam) quoted in the Quran:

She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?” He said, “So (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is. (Quran, 3:45-47)

The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, “Be!” and he came into being (Quran, 3:59)

They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

My friend, you have a brain for yourself to research the nonsense you spoke about in your post. Yes Muslims do mention so many prophets/messengers came to the Jews and they killed all of them!

There are traditional books that do mention almost all of them if not all, and speak of them.

We give all our respects to Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc. We must approve of them all in order to be Muslim

But why do Christians and Jews not approve of Mohammed (pbuh) when he is clearly quoted in the Bible(s)?

Prophet Mohammed was the seal of prophet-hood, he delivered a miracle(the Quran).

As one of his signs, God split the moon for the people around him to believe

Nasa confirms this my friend:

2en9r9k.jpg

And yes, most translations get lost when you transfer from Arabic to English

The power in English is acceptable yes, but when read in Arabic it's a whole new meaning

Please, if you really want to learn about God further and want to decide for yourself if our religion is wrong or not.

Take a peep at this clip on youtube of A recitation from the Quran and how its read in Arabic

Listen to at least half of it and you'll relies how beautiful it is!

Muslims believe Jesus will return to earth to rule to an arabic man named "The Mehdi"

Do your research on the miracles from the Quran that were presented so so so long ago!

The Quran hasn't changed one bit since it's been reviled by God.

Not only is it so powerful, but it's poetic.

The words rhyme and has a rhythm to it , by someone reading a verse for three times, you'll remember it for the rest of your life, believe me.

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)”

Surah 15, verse 9

listen to about minute 3:30

It's a verse called "The Prophets" feel the power now?

Go get a translation of it, you'll see what I mean..

Edited by Abbas0

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People need to understand that life went on after Jesus left. That's right left, not DIED!

So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth

not DIED? Jesus Himself says He will die.

Jesus (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).

In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says:

If you love me, Keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever.

(Bible, John 14-15/16)

But when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me, and he also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

(Bible, John 15-26/27)

First off Muhammad is not a spirit.

Secondly Jesus made this promise to His disciples, none of which would live 630 some years to receive.

<H4>Acts 1

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Here Jesus tells them the promise is comming, but to stay in Jerusalem until they do. Considering after this they departed into all corners of the known world they obviously received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Here is the promise fullfilled.

Here's Mary(Mariam) quoted in the Quran:

She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?” He said, “So (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only, ‘Be!’ and it is. (Quran, 3:45-47)

Not sure I understand the relevence.

The case of Jesus with God is like the case of Adam. He created him from dust, and then He said to him, “Be!” and he came into being (Quran, 3:59)

Is this to mean Jesus was created from dust?

They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God.” They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Quran, 4:157)

What translation is this?

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.

This entire Sura is about the Jews. Did the Jews kill Jesus? Some translations say "They boast" but we all know the judicial system and punishments were always carried out by the Romans in those days. The Jews did a lot of yellin, but did they actually do the deed? no. The rest and since is conjecture.

Yes Muslims do mention so many prophets/messengers came to the Jews and they killed all of them!

Except Jesus? What's so special about Jesus that He's the exception to every rule?

There are traditional books that do mention almost all of them if not all, and speak of them.

I'm sure there are, but no "divine" mention in the Quran?

We give all our respects to Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc. We must approve of them all in order to be Muslim

The same in Christianity, we accept all previous Prophets.

But why do Christians and Jews not approve of Mohammed (pbuh) when he is clearly quoted in the Bible(s)?

This is quite simple. The Jews didn't accept Jesus, and He was a Jew, why would the Jews accept an Arab? As for Christians, Jesus gave us all we need, why look farther?

It's really not clear. It's as easy to read it into the past scriptures as it is to read Jesus is God, yet it doesn't make either statement true.

Prophet Mohammed was the seal of prophet-hood, he delivered a miracle(the Quran).

As one of his signs, God split the moon for the people around him to believe

What you'll find is that you-tube confirms it. Nasa confirms that a colision split the earth, and the moon.

Hadith has the moon in two separate pieces, although we know there's no way the moon could actually become two separate pieces and stay in an orbit. If you can find something where NASA actually says...

And yes, most translations get lost when you transfer from Arabic to English

The power in English is acceptable yes, but when read in Arabic it's a whole new meaning

Please, if you really want to learn about God further and want to decide for yourself if our religion is wrong or not.

Actually my reason for being here is not to determine your religion is wrong, and unfortunatley I have no understanding of the Arabic language.

Muslims believe Jesus will return to earth to rule to an arabic man named "The Mehdi"

Do your research on the miracles from th I haven't e Quran that were presented so so so long ago!

The Quran hasn't changed one bit since it's been reviled by God.

Not only is it so powerful, but it's poetic.

The words rhyme and has a rhythm to it , by someone reading a verse for three times, you'll remember it for the rest of your life, believe me.

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)”

Surah 15, verse 9

I understand that Muslims believe in the Mehdi, although I haven't seen anything of him, (yet) in the Quran.

As with the Bible it says that God's words will not change. Interestinly enough scholars expected, (and Muslims hoped) to see major differences in the modern and the first century texts,(Pre Constantine even) but what they found was almost none. Isn't it great that God has protected His word throuout the ages? Why would He only start with the Quran?

</H4>

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I guess you missed my post or something?

(salam)

I love talking about Prophet Isa(Jesus) with Christians because it's funny how they have so many books about him and yet we have a couple of ayat from the Quran that describe him 100x better.

Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. (Qur’an 3:59).

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)

In the Qur’an Allah quotes Jesus, peace be upon him, as saying:

Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird by Allah’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are to be believers.

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an 3: 49-51).

Now read this:

In the day when Allah gathers together the messengers and says: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden.

When Allah says: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto you and unto your mother; how I strengthened you with the holy Spirit, so that you spoke unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught you the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how you did shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and did blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and you did heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission . . . (Qur’an 5:109-110)

Christian references:

I can of my own authority do nothing. (John 5:30)

They also forget the declaration of Peter:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves know. (Acts 2:22 KJV).

Back to the Qu'ran:

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).

"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

Woe to the Christians after these clear statements from the Holly Qu'ran

May god help those who actually love Jesus but have been fed wrong information!

I guess you missed the part where I said if you could back it up. Unfortunately quoting the Quran isn't good enough as it came along 600 years later and the testimony it provides in relation to Jesus is founded on nothing more that the claims of one man who was not around at the time.

I hear this a lot when asked for proof on things. If I don't believe in the Quran's accounts I cannot accept it as Gospel, especially when it tries to change so much of what was written about Old/New Testament times without any backing.

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As one of his signs, God split the moon for the people around him to believe

Nasa confirms this my friend:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2en9r9k.jpg

OK, let's get some intellectual clarity here.

If you want to believe that G-d split the moon hundreds of years ago, go right ahead. Feel free to believe that G-d split it in such a way that it then rejoined itself without affecting its orbit or leaving any trace so that it all happened in a manner that's invisible to all known scientific instrumentation, and therefore this belief cannot be tested empirically. This would be a statement of absolute blind faith, but what can you do.

But to say "Nasa confirms this" and then provide some random, probably Photoshopped picture, is just not clear thinking.

NASA has a web site, and it is not "tinypic.com." It is http://www.nasa.gov. Go ahead and find something there that says that the moon split in half.

Or perhaps an article in a newspaper of record quoting NASA as ever having "confirmed" the moon-split-in-half theory.

I'll be waiting.

Wait, I can guess your response! The international Zionist conspiracy forced NASA to hide the truth, so that the only evidence left over is some dubious photoshopped images available from tinypic.com and Muslim web sites!

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But to say "Nasa confirms this" and then provide some random, probably Photoshopped picture, is just not clear thinking.

NASA has a web site, and it is not "tinypic.com." It is http://www.nasa.gov. Go ahead and find something there that says that the moon split in half.

Or perhaps an article in a newspaper of record quoting NASA as ever having "confirmed" the moon-split-in-half theory.

I'll be waiting.

Wait, I can guess your response! The international Zionist conspiracy forced NASA to hide the truth, so that the only evidence left over is some dubious photoshopped images available from tinypic.com and Muslim web sites!

:lol:

The verse about the moon splitting is speaking of the day of resurrection. The Quran refers to the event in the past tense as it often does when speaking of that Day. In classical Arabic, to refer to a future event in the past tense is meant at emphasizing several realities, among them the inevitability of the event happening

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:lol:

The verse about the moon splitting is speaking of the day of resurrection. The Quran refers to the event in the past tense as it often does when speaking of that Day. In classical Arabic, to refer to a future event in the past tense is meant at emphasizing several realities, among them the inevitability of the event happening

Are you kidding me? I've heard multiple explanations for this account from muslims, but never this one. I thought the Quran wasn't open to interpretation and was clear and definitive?

Also, how do you explain the talking ants?

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These words six centuries later are obsurd, just made up. God would be evil if he made it to appear that Jesus was killed to the disciples. God would never do that, but Satan would. There is no purpose to deceive the disciples, except for Satan there is a purpose to cast doubt on the crucifixion of Jesus, but ultimately Satan fails because there is no doubt, because all the evidence tells us Jesus died on the cross and the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Nothing can account for this so it is true.

There was nobody qualified to write Matthew than Matthew. Matthew was a tax collector and emphasized Jesus as king in Matthew. Nobody can fill the shoes of Mark who wrote Mark and even placed himself in the text running in the street naked. Luke definitely wrote Luke since he said Acts was part two of his former working with the opening statement to Theophilus in both accounts. And nobody at all was qualified to write John but John. John writes, placing himself at the cross with the women. Luke emphasized Jesus as a man, for Luke was a doctor. John the disciple whom Jesus loved most emphasized Jesus as God and full of love. Mark was very basic in his writing style and simple. He was fickle with Paul, and Paul didn't want to travel on a trip with him because he bailed out last time.

Most scholars can think of none else but these four men as the authors. People can check on all this that I have said. It's all common knowledge in the Scriptures.

Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. There are more sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death than any ten figures combined. If you think this is a lack of evidence then you will have to deny the existence of everyone in antiquity. I don't know any historians who takes your approach. His death is also well recorded. More than half of the 45 sources speak of his death, and 24 of them speak of his resurrection.

All the NT is the primary source for Jesus, not just the gospels. For example, Paul said he saw Jesus and spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James on more than one occassion. It's safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul recounts the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that he said he received from them, giving it in creedal form 1 Cor. 15. Most scholars place his meeting with James and Peter within 5 years after the cross.

Historians take the entire NT like any other historical document and glean what facts they can from it. And there are no contradictions in the Bible.

In short, we have more than ample documentation for the life, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus meeting standards far in excess of what is normally used as a historical document for antiquity in depth, breadth and number of sources. Since there is no evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross and nobody even suggested it in the first two centuries, it's not an issue. There are several cults out there that take the approach Islam takes, but that's what make a cult is to have no evidence.

The Qu'ran is irrelevant since you can't come along six centuries later without any evidence. God would be evil to ask you to believe so blindly so I am sure it is Satan's work.

Since the disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, but they didn't lie and Jesus didn't lie, then the liar must be the Qu'ran, since God would not deceive the disciples. That's something Satan would try to do.

Hey retard, Why wouldn't God do this, he knows whats best. B saying what ou said you're hudging God's decision making and calling him a liar. In the Koran and in the Bible it mwntions the Jews changing the words of the scriptures that were sent down to them. the Pope probably did it when he had it translated into latin and King James aka Shakespeare certainly did it dirung the time he formed the Angelican church.

I guess you missed the part where I said if you could back it up. Unfortunately quoting the Quran isn't good enough as it came along 600 years later and the testimony it provides in relation to Jesus is founded on nothing more that the claims of one man who was not around at the time.

I hear this a lot when asked for proof on things. If I don't believe in the Quran's accounts I cannot accept it as Gospel, especially when it tries to change so much of what was written about Old/New Testament times without any backing.

THe old testament is the Torah, and in the Bible it mentions the Jews changing God's words around. You don't accept the Koran because you say its made 6 ccenturies later, how is a man supposed to trace back what happend six centuries ago and write it down in the middle of Arabia and then supposedly write the whole Koran down. Proof:

You must be pretty [edited out] to come to a Muslim website and call the Koran absurd and God's work the work of the [edited out] we all know as Satan.

Edited by Mr. Elephant Tusk

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