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Elçin

Loan Interest And Niyyat Of Istinqaz

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Assalamu alaikum,

i would appreciate clarifications regarding the issue of interest and the niyyat of isitnqaz (that is, taking

advantage of a non-Muslim's wealth which he is willingly placing at your disposal), discussed in the link below

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/aalimnetwork/msg00442.html

Does this ruling of istinqaz apply only when one deals with Non-muslim banks?

Nowadays most banks in secular states with muslim population (like Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, etc) have mixed owners (muslim and non-muslim) and they give loans with interest. Is it permissible to take such loans from them considering the above-mentioned ruling of isitnqaz?

Thank you for your help,

Elchin

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It seems inevitable that eventually Muslim scholars will need to recognize a difference between interest in itself, and riba, reconceptualizing riba as any exploitative financing arrangement. Sensibly regulated, modest interest is a basic requirement for any workable finance and banking system, and allows banking operations that fulfill a lot of public good. (Giving entrepreneurs and businessese access to capital for improvements, helping consumers finance homes and cars)

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(salam)

This is according to Sayyid Seestani http://www.al-islam.org/laws/contemporary/muamalat1.html

Q62: What is the ruling on depositing money in banks sponsored by Muslim and non-Muslim governments, with the stipulated condition of receiving interest?

A: Depositing in banks of non-Muslim countries is permissible in every case, even if it is under the stipulated condition of obtaining interest. As for depositing in government banks of Muslim countries under the stipulated condition of obtaining interest, then it is prohibited. But, if it is without this condition, then the issue is free of interest (riba) but it is not permissible to spend the acquired money without referring to al-hakim al-shar'i or his representative. (FM, p. 405)

Q63: Is there a difference here between the principal and interest which the banks (in Muslim countries) give to the depositor?

A: No, there is no difference between them. One is not permitted to spend from anything taken from government banks in Muslim countries except by referring to al-hakim al-shar'i or his representative. (FM, p. 405)

Q64: If I know that the bank will give me interest even without stipulating the conditions, is it permissible for me to deposit in a savings account that takes the form of a term-deposit?

A: Yes, it is permissible, as long as you do not stipulate the conditions of interest. (FM, p. 406)

Q65: Is it permissible to take interest from unbelievers, especially for those who live in their countries?

A: Yes, apparently one is allowed to take interest from the unbelievers, whose property is not honored. God knows best. (MMS, p. 27, Q49)

Q66: A national bank (in a Muslim country) offers a project to its clients in which a person deposits a sum of money in the order of 1,000 dirhams as a deposit which can be withdrawn at any time. It announces that after a period of time, a lottery will be drawn and the bank will grant a specific gift to the investors. Is it permissible to deposit with this intention?

A: Depositing with the condition of a gift is usury and therefore prohibited. By condition is meant to make the deposit with the requirement that the bank should give the gift. But the mere knowledge that the bank will grant it (gift) does not harm the permissibility of investing and the lawfulness of the granted gift. God knows best. (MMS, p. 36, Q76)

Q67: A person does not own a house to reside in. Is it permissible for him to borrow from government banks with interest for the purpose of building his own house?

A: It is not permissible to borrow with the condition of interest for any reason, but it is permissible to take the money from it (bank), though not with the intention of a loan, and to legitimize its spending by referring to al-hakim al-shar'i or his representative. (FM, pp. 406-7)

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Q67: A person does not own a house to reside in. Is it permissible for him to borrow from government banks with interest for the purpose of building his own house?

A: It is not permissible to borrow with the condition of interest for any reason, but it is permissible to take the money from it (bank), though not with the intention of a loan, and to legitimize its spending by referring to al-hakim al-shar'i or his representative. (FM, pp. 406-7)

It is not clear however if this ruling applies to muslim government banks only or to all private banks with mixed capital (musilm and non-muslim)? Can i borrow from a private bank (non governmental) which is owned jointly by muslims and non-muslims?

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Guest Ali Maysam

I fail to understand how are we "securing the money from the hand of a non Muslim" (intention or not), because they are making money off you in longer run or why else would these banks provide mortgages to begin with.

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1 hour ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The Muslims are living in the West as per secondary rules, because as per primary rulings it is considered a land of war and kufr (daar al-harb).

Salam alykom brother

Wouldn't most of the countries in the west count as Dar al Sulh (or a country with whom a peace treaty is made) considering that Muslims there can practice their faith openly and are secured? What about the Quranic verses that talk about making peace with non-Muslims if possible etc, and didn't the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a) make peace treaties with those who didn't wage war against Muslims and so forth?

Otherwise, wouldn't it mean that what ISIS is doing in the west is pretty much justified?

 

Edited by The Straight Path

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On 2/2/2011 at 11:48 PM, kadhim said:

It seems inevitable that eventually Muslim scholars will need to recognize a difference between interest in itself, and riba, reconceptualizing riba as any exploitative financing arrangement. Sensibly regulated, modest interest is a basic requirement for any workable finance and banking system, and allows banking operations that fulfill a lot of public good. (Giving entrepreneurs and businessese access to capital for improvements, helping consumers finance homes and cars)

Is not interest itself riba ? There can be better models for lending loans with a different strategy just like that of a shop: - Such as a bank say to a person we buy for you a car, but we are like shop keepers and we will sell you car at retail price and they can sell the car or house just like shops at a profit. In this case, it won't be interest. 

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@Ibn al-Hussain Thank you for your detailed response. In your opinion, do you think the hadiths regarding this issue are clear and not open for reinterpretation (that most non-Muslims should be fought, we should not live in their countries, be harsh against them etc) or do you think that there are proof as well for what most jurists believe today regarding non-Muslims and Islam being a religion of peace?

What comes in mind is this verse for example:

Quote

"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly." [60:8]

Or these about peace:

Quote

 

[5:87] O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by God, and do not aggress; God dislikes the aggressors.

[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

[4:90] ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no excuse to fight them.

 

According to narrations that have reached us, would you say that we are allowed to live in the west, show kindness to non-Muslims etc as long as we can practice our faith freely and openly in those places? Or is this just something that today's scholars have 'sugar-coated' and something Islam is completely against according to our Imams ((عليه السلام)) and the Qur'an?

I remember reading somewhere online (probably a Sunni site) that when we become a citizen in a country belonging to non-Muslims, we agree to abide by their laws etc (like a pact) and therefore we should or must not break their laws since as Muslims we are not allowed to break trusts (even against non-Muslims), it was somewhere along those lines. Has any of our jurists argued this way and would you see this interpretation as justified?

 

JazakumAllah khair

 

Edited by The Straight Path

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On 8/1/2019 at 1:27 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Also, Sayyid Khamenei (who believes in the obligation of offensive war as well) has given his advanced classes on jurisprudence on the topic of truce during warfare and the transcriptions are available on his website.

Salam,

Does Sayed al-Sistani also hold this view of offensive war (seems to be the case with his interest ruling right)? Does Sayed al-Sistani hold the view that a non-dhimmi kafir who rejects Islam is a harbi and his blood has no sanctity?

On 8/1/2019 at 5:28 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

With that brief preface above, the ruling is saying, you can take the loan money with the intention of a transaction without a return (I.e. salvage the money, in Arabic it is called istinqaadh), and this is an example of one of those primary rulings being applied. Meaning, the money is yours (a Muslim's) to begin with and not the disbelievers who are enemies and whose wealth have no sanctity to begin with. So you take the money, and the fact that you are going to have to pay it back later on is simply due to what they term "idhtirar" - meaning out of necessity and because you have no choice (which is also once again an application of a secondary law). Hence, why it is technically allowed to take interest-based loans (because you are not taking them with that intention, rather you are taking them with the intention of "this is my money to begin with").

For the scholars that don't accept that the kafir's blood and wealth have no sanctity (btw, are there any scholars who say this?), would they consider interest in non-Muslim lands to be prohibited?

Final question...for the scholars that accept that if a non-dhimmi kafir doesn't accept Islam then he must be killed, how would these scholars interpret "there is no compulsion in religion"?

Edited by Follower of Ahlulbayt

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47 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

 

To clarify, if the non-Muslims are charging you interest, and it looks like interest, it smells like interest, it tastes like interest, and it works like interest, the bank is literally telling you that it is interest, then it is interest. You changing your intention in your mind from it being "interest" to "salvaging my money" will not change what is in external reality - which is interest. Hence the Islamic law of interest is still applicable and it is prohibited to get into such a contract. If you have a wide variety of religious Sunni friends or colleagues, you will know that some of them do not purchases houses for this very reason (because they will not take a mortgage), and others will even delay going to universities (so they do not have to take student loans).

Salamun alaikum

So Shias too should not be buying houses via a mortgage as it involves interest and not just Sunnis? Or do Shias ignore this?

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2 minutes ago, gajarkahalva said:

Salamun alaikum

So Shias too should not be buying houses via a mortgage as it involves interest and not just Sunnis? Or do Shias ignore this?

Shi'as ignore this - I was describing the Sunni methodology. We can take the mortgage as per the fatwas, as long as you have the intention of istinqaadh (the topic of this thread). If you take the mortgage with the intention of an interest based loan, then that will be considered a sin.

Wasalam

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