Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Significance of 12

Umar Denying Pen And Paper To The Prophet (pbuh)

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

^That can be argued from a Sunni perspective. Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) disobeyed they Holy Prophet (saw) as well when he was signing the treaty of Hudaybiyya between the tribe of Quraysh and the Muslims. Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) refused to rub out Mohammad's (saw) title as the Prophet of God since the Quraysh didn't recognise him as one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Muhamad

yeah but that's i believe a smaller mistake. Allah is the One to judge the mistakes of every human being & weigh them with the good actions .. Allahu 2a3lam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From above it is clear that the prophet couldn't read or write which brings me to the main question:

Why did the prophet (pbuh) ask for pen and paper on his day of demise when he couldn't write anything anyways? And if he wanted someone to write for him, then that wouldn't be accepted by the deniers. So why did he ask for those items?

please enlighten me on this with proper reference.

I'm sorry but this is not because the Prophet(Pbuh&hpf) was unable to read at the first time of Revelation

that he can't learn to read and write till the end of his life

as far as I know we all learned to read and write

I don't see any contradiction in the logic

He was iletrate at the earliest stage of the Revelation and was able to write and read at the end of his life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry but this is not because the Prophet(Pbuh&hpf) was unable to read at the first time of Revelation

that he can't learn to read and write till the end of his life

as far as I know we all learned to read and write

I don't see any contradiction in the logic

He was iletrate at the earliest stage of the Revelation and was able to write and read at the end of his life.

thanks for that, and thats y i raised post #8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly several points have been raised and it amazing how people can twist a hadith to suit them self. Look firstly we can not Quote Mufeed here to prove that Umar didn't get the pen and paper as this is a Shia book and even the words of bukhari can be miss understood If the other hadiths are not looked at. If we put the blame on Umar then we can also put the blame on the other companions including the Ahlulbayt (as) who where present there to. Why did they not get a pen and paper for the prophet (sa)? If we claim that the Umar did not follow the instructions of the Prophet by not getting a pen and paper, then how will you view Imam Ali when he was told to cross out the prophets name in treaty of hudaibiya? the fact of the matter is that just in the same way shias claim that in this will was going to have the prophet (saw) then how do you know it was not going to have the name of abu bakar on it? the fact of the matter is the prophet (saw) was not well and the Words the "Quran is enough for us" was said due to the simple fact the prophet (saw) was ill very ill. There is no mention of Umar sayying " I shall not give you a pen and paper" The Quran is rather clear in the principals of religion. Where Allah (swt) talks about zakat, prayer, prophethood, day of judgement they are clear cut Quran evidances for this, but If you are trying to basis your whole religion on somthing that has no clarity that is a joke lol

Edited by silat_warrior110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly several points have been raised and it amazing how people can twist a hadith to suit them self. Look firstly we can not Quote Mufeed here to prove that Umar didn't get the pen and paper as this is a Shia book and even the words of bukhari can be miss understood If the other hadiths are not looked at. If we put the blame on Umar then we can also put the blame on the other companions including the Ahlulbayt (as) who where present there to. Why did they not get a pen and paper for the prophet (sa)? If we claim that the Umar did not follow the instructions of the Prophet by not getting a pen and paper, then how will you view Imam Ali when he was told to cross out the prophets name in treaty of hudaibiya? the fact of the matter is that just in the same way shias claim that in this will was going to have the prophet (saw) then how do you know it was not going to have the name of abu bakar on it? the fact of the matter is the prophet (saw) was not well and the Words the "Quran is enough for us" was said due to the simple fact the prophet (saw) was ill very ill. There is no mention of Umar sayying " I shall not give you a pen and paper" The Quran is rather clear in the principals of religion. Where Allah (swt) talks about zakat, prayer, prophethood, day of judgement they are clear cut Quran evidances for this, but If you are trying to basis your whole religion on somthing that has no clarity that is a joke lol

Firstly my friend Umars comment NOT to give the pen and papet caused a disruption to occur. Due to this reason everyone was dismissed from the room. The arguement occured because of the comment made which means THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOME WHO WANTED TO GET THE PEN AND PAPER. If Umar really believed that the pen and paper should not be given why did he not deny Abu Bakr his pen and paper. Oh yeah, because Abu Bakr was going to leave Umar in charge, makes sense.

Secondly how can you even think Abu Bakrs name was going to be on it

Please compare Abu Bakr - OR ANYONE ELSE to that matter to Imam Ali.

I will ask you and give me an honest answer.

HYPOTHETICALLY speaking of course

Right now you are in charge of all of Islam. You have to make a decision on who to give the whole religion to. You have many options but I youv'e narrowed it down to 2 (according to your comments above)

1 of them is a person whom is your father in law. Believed in other gods before Allah and is rich and older character.

The second however is a young man you have raised yourself. His father is a man you has been the father figure in your life since you were a boy. Your father cares for your well being so much he sends away another son of his to Africa just so he can look after you.

So when you hit the age of 30, your Guardian father has a son.

You name him.

He is born inside the Kabbah. This new baby is like your own son. You refer to him as your brother but is actually your cousin.

You teach him everything you want him to know. So we know from here your cousin/brother has never believed in any other god.

The boy hits 10 years old and you go through a dramatic change in your life, something happens,

The only people to believe you intially is your wife and the young boy.

Slowly as the religion grows and your wife dies you are left with 1 true believer.

He studies the book and becomes the Imam of the book.

He is knowledge is uncompariable.

His fighting ability is uncompariable. Even when his eyes can't see this young man still goes to war and never backs out

His strength is uncompariable.

His charity giving in uncompariable, infact even when he is praying he is giving.

He even is presented from Allah a gift like the Zulfiqar.

When you ask everyone to stay at home while you must leave due to you being attacked, this young man sleeps in your bed so they can kill him so that you may live another day.

You have a daughter and you say " IF ANYONE MAKES MY DAUGHTER SAD THEY MAKE ME SAD, WHOEVER MAKES ME SAD MAKES Allah SAD". So your daughter is also a blessing from Allah or you wouldnt say such things. To guarantee her happiness you give her hand in marriage to your cousin

He is the father of your 2 grandchildren.

Now that your dying and would like a mere pen and paper so we don't loose our ways after Allah has perfected your religion.

Would you give your leadership to your father in law who has merely been on a couple of trips with you and in some battles, or someone like Imam Ali?

Give me your honest opinion

Oh after you die he washes your body and holds your funeral with his family, while the others do not attend because they are fighting for power

After the power is stolen from him Imam Ali stays quiet for 25 years. Something that you deserve gets taken away and you stay quiet for 25 years, that would make Imam Alis patience uncompariable.

I should also mention your daughter does not talk to your father in law or Umar until she dies. So your father in law has made Allah sad (according to your previous sayings)

Now my friend

Let me ask you who would you want to take the lead after you die?

Thirdly you mentioned there is no clear cut Quran evidances for this.

My friend the Quran was already written.

We are going off hadiths that Bukhari has written. But as I mentioned before the Quran does state:

2:282 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties:

let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes.

If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.

The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence).

Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing.

But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you.

So fear Allah. For it is God that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things.

This is a passage from the Quran about fixed contracts and obligation.

Muhammad was the liability for Allah chose him as a messenger to give

Maybe the Quran does say it just in a different way

Now I will finish with your quote back at you

but If you are trying to basis your whole religion on somthing that has no clarity that is a joke

I think we are lol, not you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the fact of the matter is that just in the same way shias claim that in this will was going to have the prophet (saw) then how do you know it was not going to have the name of abu bakar on it? the fact of the matter is the prophet (saw) was not well and the Words the "Quran is enough for us" was said due to the simple fact the prophet (saw) was ill very ill.

Did his act relieve the prophet (pbuh)? rest of the hadith says the prophet(PBUH)'s condition got worse by it (causing ppl to argue in that room) that he asked all of them to leave the room. So in fact, he made it worse, not better. Agreed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this question long time ago but never got a good answer for this.

Quran: 7:157 "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful".

Bible: Isaiah 29:12 "Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, I pray thee." And he says, "I am not literate."

From above it is clear that the prophet couldn't read or write which brings me to the main question:

Why did the prophet (pbuh) ask for pen and paper on his day of demise when he couldn't write anything anyways? And if he wanted someone to write for him, then that wouldn't be accepted by the deniers. So why did he ask for those items?

please enlighten me on this with proper reference.

Salam

The translation of the Verse is not correct.

The word used in the verse is ÇáúÃõãöøíóø which does not necessarily mean illiterate.

Infact this incident of the Prophet (saww) asking for pen and paper to write clearly indicates that the prophet (saww) actually knew how to read and write.

Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Muhamad

"Read in the name of you Lorn who created, created man from a clot. REad, for your Lord is most Generous, Who teaches by means of the pen, teaches man what he does not know." 96:1-5.

maybe after receiving this order our prophet pbuh.gif started to learn how to read & write .. don't know unsure.gif

especially this being the first ayah that was channelled to our prophet pbuh.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Read in the name of you Lorn who created, created man from a clot. REad, for your Lord is most Generous, Who teaches by means of the pen, teaches man what he does not know." 96:1-5.

maybe after receiving this order our prophet pbuh.gif started to learn how to read & write .. don't know unsure.gif

especially this being the first ayah that was channelled to our prophet pbuh.gif

Never thought of it that way. Possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^That can be argued from a Sunni perspective. Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) disobeyed they Holy Prophet (saw) as well when he was signing the treaty of Hudaybiyya between the tribe of Quraysh and the Muslims. Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) refused to rub out Mohammad's (saw) title as the Prophet of God since the Quraysh didn't recognise him as one.

(salam)

I would respond to that Sunni argument by saying that there's a difference between both situations:

Incident 1 - Umar calling the Prophet (pbuh) delirious and not listening to his request and on top of that implying that he knows what's better for the Ummah by saying "the Quran is enough for us".

Incident 2 - Imam Ali (as) telling the Prophet (pbuh) that he can't bear to rub out his name because it will hurt him as he has too much love for him.

I'm sure people are capable of working out which one is disobedience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...