Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Significance of 12

Umar Denying Pen And Paper To The Prophet (pbuh)

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

I posted this question long time ago but never got a good answer for this.

Quran: 7:157 "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful".

Bible: Isaiah 29:12 "Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, I pray thee." And he says, "I am not literate."

From above it is clear that the prophet couldn't read or write which brings me to the main question:

Why did the prophet (pbuh) ask for pen and paper on his day of demise when he couldn't write anything anyways? And if he wanted someone to write for him, then that wouldn't be accepted by the deniers. So why did he ask for those items?

please enlighten me on this with proper reference.

Edited by Significance of 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted this question long time ago but never got a good answer for this.

Quran: 7:157 "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful".

Bible: Isaiah 29:12 "Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, I pray thee." And he says, "I am not literate."

From above it is clear that the prophet couldn't read or write which brings me to the main question:

Why did the prophet (pbuh) ask for pen and paper on his day of demise when he couldn't write anything anyways? And if he wanted someone to write for him, then that wouldn't be accepted by the deniers. So why did he ask for those items?

please enlighten me on this with proper reference.

(salam)

I suggest you look at the ARABIC text of the Quran

it doesn't necessarily say that the Prophet is illiterate..

so it is not necessarily clear yet that the Prophet didn't know how to read and write

btw why did you quote a verse from the Bible? The Bible is not a hujja upon us

Finally, whatever the Prophet SAYS is a commandment by Allah. If the Prophet says, give me a pen + paper, then you MUST give him a pen and paper, whether you understand why he needs it or not

Wassalam

Edited by 14infallibles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

btw why did you quote a verse from the Bible? The Bible is not a hujja upon us

Finally, whatever the Prophet SAYS is a commandment by Allah. If the Prophet says, give me a pen + paper, then you MUST give him a pen and paper, whether you understand why he needs it or not

Wassalam

Because the Qur'an says that prophet (pbuh) was mentioned in the previous books, thats why i posted the verse in the Torah as a side note. For your second point, I agree with what you're saying. However, we always justify (or at least try to) his actions and words through logical explanations and not mere "blind faith". I'm not asking IF he asked, I asked what could be an explanation for such. Everything about the prophet has been logically sound and I'm sure this one is too, I just can't comprehend as yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

However, we always justify (or at least try to) his actions and words through logical explanations and not mere "blind faith".

Not necessarily. Why did the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم make salat 5 times a day wajib? Why did he say we must perform hajj? Why do we need to do wudhu before salat? Why is salat al-Magrib 3 rak`at? Why do we need to wipe our feet during wudhu?

We follow the Prophet using "blind faith" in all issues concerning FIQH and jurisprudence. And according to our FIQH, following the Prophet unconditionally is OBLIGATORY..

However, when it comes to BELIEFS (aqaid), you CANNOT follow anybody blindly until you have verified

So again, if the Prophet orders that a pen and paper is brought to him, then you must obey whether you like it or not and whether you understand or not

Edited by 14infallibles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not necessarily. Why did the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã make salat 5 times a day wajib? Why did he say we must perform hajj? Why do we need to do wudhu before salat? Why is salat al-Magrib 3 rak`at? Why do we need to wipe our feet during wudhu?

We follow the Prophet using "blind faith" in all issues concerning FIQH and jurisprudence. And according to our FIQH, following the Prophet unconditionally is OBLIGATORY..

However, when it comes to BELIEFS (aqaid), you CANNOT follow anybody blindly until you have verified

So again, if the Prophet orders that a pen and paper is brought to him, then you must obey whether you like it or not and whether you understand or not

Forgive me for my limited knowledge, but as for my reasoning for the above, we can open a new thread. To point a few,

1. salat of 5 times a day promotes health and better circulation of blood (as opposed to the lifestyle of the lazy arabs of that time)

2. Hajj to promote unity among the Ummah

3. Wudhu to promote cleanliness

4. Difference in rak'at - possibly so we pay attention to our salat and not make it a repetitive consistent chore

...and so on, However these can be argued no doubt. thanks

My question still remains unanswered. Thank you again for your consideration on this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

(bismillah)

I have made a blog about the word Ummi. I have present SaHeeH hadeeth from our Imaams to explain the word Ummi.

Click here: Reason behind the Prophet being named Ummi

(salam)

Thank you brother Nader, so the Prophet couldn't read or write during the time Qur'an-e-Kareem was revealed but he learnt later on. That also brings the point that when Angel Gabriel brought down the revelations to the prophet(PBUH) he would dictate them to his companions around him so they could write them down. so the companions were educated. As per the previous link, there were about 16-17 literate people among the quraysh. Meaning most of those literates were the companions of the prophet. Does that mean, the prophet(PBUH) deliberately chose the educated ones to serve the purpose? I'm having so many questions now out-flowing from my mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you Shias accuse Umar of not giving pen and paper? when there is not mention of Umar denying it in the first place?

There is.

Amali Shaikh Mufeed:

ÞÇá: ÃÎÈÑäí ÃÈæ ÍÝÕ ÚãÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÕíÑÝí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáÍÓíä ÇáÚÈÇÓ Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ ÇáÌæåÑí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ÃÍãÏ Èä ãäÕæÑ ÇáÑãÇÏí ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÕÇáÍ ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÚäÈÓÉÞÇá: ÃÎÈÑäí íæäÓ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÔåÇÈ¡ Úä ÚÈíÏÇááå Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÚÊÈÉ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇáÚÈÇÓ ÞÇá: áãÇ ÍÖÑÊ ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ÇáæÝÇÉ æÝí ÇáÈíÊ ÑÌÇá Ýíåã ÚãÑ Èä ÇáÎØÇÈ¡ ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã: åáãæÇ ÃßÊÈ áßã ßÊÇÈÇ áä ÊÖáæÇ ÈÚÏå ÃÈÏÇ ¿ ÝÞÇá ÚãÑ: áÇ ÊÃÊæå ÈÔÆ ÝÇäå ÞÏ ÛáÈå ÇáæÌÚ æÚäÏßã ÇáÞÑÂä¡ ÍÓÈäÇ ßÊÇÈ Çááå

ÝÇÎÊáÝ Ãåá ÇáÈíÊ æÇÎÊÕãæÇ ¡ Ýãäåã ãä íÞæá: ÞæãæÇ íßÊÈ áßã ÑÓæá Çááå¡ æãäåã ãä íÞæá ãÇ ÞÇá ÚãÑ. ÝáãÇ ßËÑ ÇááÛØ æÇáÇÎÊáÇÝ ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã: ÞæãæÇ Úäí. ÞÇá ÚÈíÏÇááå Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÚÊÈÉ: æßÇä ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ ÑÍãå Çááå íÞæá: ÇáÑÒíÉ ßá ÇáÑÒíÉ ãÇ ÍÇá Èíä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÈíä Ãä íßÊÈ áäÇ Ðáß ÇáßÊÇÈ ãä ÇÎÊáÇÝåã æáÛØåã

Said informed us Abu Hafs b.Muhammad b.Ali As Seerfi said "Told us Abu al Hasan al Abbas b. al Mughira al Johari (who)said "Told Abu Bakr Ahmad b.Mansur ar Ramadi (who)said "Told Ahmed b.Saleh (who)said "Told us Anmbasah (who)said: Informed us Younus, from Ibn Shihab, from Ubaidullab b. Abdullah b.Utbah, from Abdullah b. Abbas (who) said "When Prophet(PBUH) was (close to)death, and in the house were people among whom was Umar, Rasool Allah(PBUH) said "Come (shall I)write a document so you will never go astray afterwards?" Umar said "Don't obey/bring anything for pain has overtaken (him) and you have the Qur'an, book of Allah(swt) is sufficient for us." So people of the house differed and argued, some saying "Go, let Rasool Allah(PBUH) write." And some said what Umar said. When there was much confusion/chaos and disagreement, Rasool Allah(PBUH) said "Go (away) from me." Said Ubaidullab b. Abdullah b. Utbah: And Ibn Abbas used to say "Of all calamities the biggest calamity was what came between Rasool Allah(PBUH) and the writing (which he(PBUH)wanted to) write and that was the disagreement and chaos."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/calamity-of-thursday-ie-pen-and-paper.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do you Shias accuse Umar of not giving pen and paper? when there is not mention of Umar denying it in the first place?

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2:282 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is God that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things.

This is a passage from the Quran about fixed contracts and obligation.

Muhammad (pbuh) was the liability for Allah chose him as a messenger to give the word of Allah to the people. The parties are Muhammad pbuh and the Islamic Religion. The contract is that Muhammad would teach the word of Allah.

Remembering this read the Surah again carefully and you will understand that what Omar did was against the Quranic Law

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2:282 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is God that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things.

thank you, that really helped a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether the Prophet (saw) was or was not illiterate isn't an issue. He may have asked for a pen and paper and got a scribe to write down what he was saying. Was it the Prophet (saw) who wrote down the verses of the Quran or did he appoint scribes? It was the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Muhamad

point is that it was clear that every muslim had to obey the prophet .. according to the God's words in the quran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...