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The Trinity

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Here is a small extract in regards to what the Master of the Faithful says in the first sermon of Nahjul Balagha regarding God, which takes many nights and days to interpret what the Master of the Faithful was talking about.

Good post ! Very pertinent !

For those who may not be aware, the Master of the Faithful refers to Imam Ali.

And as with most of Imam Ali's sermons, it is an extraordinary piece of literature and a brilliant gem of philosophy.

What intrigues me is how some think they know more about Christianity than Christians.

The person you trying to have a swipe at claims to be a former Christian.

I once had a quote by Imam Hussain in my signature where he said something like I look at this and I see Allah and I look at that and see Allah and the closer which I really like is that he said I see Allah everywhere. That is lousy paraphrasing but I think you will get the gist of it. I think Christians use Jesus to illustrate their personal relationship with God as Jesus being God incarnate.

Imam Husain's statement bears absolutely no relationship to God incarnate. Please read Sn00pking's post above. It might give you a better understanding of the Islamic view.

Christians could say similar things about the concept of a child being in occultation to later return as a Messiah

Please don't try and mock our beliefs. Just as we should not be mocking your Hindu beliefs.

And in case you are not aware, the Quran also speaks of Jesus declaring his prophethood and speaking on behalf of his mother, as an infant, perhaps less than a day old. Jesus is regarded by us as a prophet of very high rank. Jesus belongs not only to Christians but to Muslims as well. Here are a few relevant verses from the Holy Quran.

[19:23] "And the pangs of childbirth drove her (the mother of Jesus) unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten! "

[19:24] "Then (the babe) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Your Lord has placed a rivulet beneath you"

[19:30] "He spoke: Lo! I am the slave of God. He has given me the scripture and has appointed me a prophet"

[19:31] "And has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live"

[19:33] "Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

[19:34] "Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (This is) a statement of truth concerning which they doubt."

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(salam)

What is the history of the trinity? When did people start thinking the God of Christianity in a trinitarian way?

In II century AD possible, as catholic church said that matthew 28:19 was added to original gospels in II AD.

But still Arianism was strong was finally condemned 325 AD, but it was spread among Goths, and Fillioque (Today catholics use this symbol in creed) was result of this, as Roman christians needed to mention Son god equal to Father god. According to Fillioque, holy ghost descends from Father god through Son god, but this is denied by easter orthodoxes and played major part in Great schism.

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Christian think that they don't need any proof or book. Supposedly, being a christian means having a 6th sense. Sense of non-sense. :!!!:

Edited by Farhadfarsi83

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salam,

So, you say somewhere in this post that trinity is not in bible but you have a reason to believe it...

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

Then you go and call muslims on an internet site hypocrites.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

I fear that next you will say something else hateful and based on anger and confusion rather than intellegence.

and again, I will ask you...

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

Although I have asked questions to that effect many times when it comes to spiritual and religious matters there is no proof no empirical evidence hence the word faith comes in believing in the unseen.

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Christian think that they don't need any proof or book. Supposedly, being a christian means having a 6th sense. Sense of non-sense. :!!!:

I don't want to insult anyone but what you said applies to every religion.

I think you put your foot in your mouth with that one.

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Christians think that they don't need any proof or book

Rubbish !

Supposedly, being a Christian means having a 6th sense

A sixth sense is a useful asset for everyone.

Sense of non-sense.

Please don't be rude.

A discussion facility is not meant to be abused.

If you cannot be polite to people, go and play marbles. You are in the wrong place.

Islam forbids rude language to everyone - irrespective of their religious or other persuasions.

Faith comes in believing in the unseen.

Islam believes that believing in the Unseen is based on plain and simple logic - not on faith.

Very briefly, the argument goes as follows - Every object needs either an engineer or a creator.

Some people say "But who created God" ?

The answer is simple - The cycle of creation must end somewhere.

Just consider a factory which produces a motor car.

Some person (or persons) must have pooled their resources to make the factory.

And then again someone else still must have made the person (or persons) who made the factory.

You might say "But then who made those people who made the factory ?"

If it was someone other than God, someone else still must have created him.

The point is that the cycle of creation must end somewhere.

We believe the cycle must end with the One who is All Powerful.

None of the intermediate creators appears to be All-Powerful.

But logic says that the last one simply must be All-Powerful.

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My comments were directed towards the guy who called everyone in SC a hypocrite. So I decided to leave my comment, which was also aimed towards him.

You can believe in the unseen, but with no guide or morals, you would be lost. Just like the guy who decided to label everyone here as a "hypocrite".

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(bismillah)

Allah (swt) sent the prophets (a.s) and revealed the Holy books to mankind. So you are all saying that if Allah (swt) did not give any of these signs to man, that we would still be muslim/christian/jewish? You are saying that just by believing in the unseen, which i agree is definately important in any religion (alhamdulilah), that you would be a rightous individual. And how exactly would you have gained this knowledge of the unseen without the signs of Allah (swt)? Are you self seficient in your religion? You seem to forget that without the signs that Allah (swt) and his mighty will, you would not even know what the unseen is.

Oh and one more thing. You label me as a "hypocrite". is this based on your knowledge of the unseen too? Allah (swt) has given us the knowledge and the ability to differentiate from good and bad. None of us created this knowledge or belief on our own. Allah has power over all things.

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My comments were directed towards the guy who called everyone in SC a hypocrite.

If you respond to someone, you should use the REPLY button, which will show who you are responding to and the specific post that you are responding to.

Otherwise, people don't know that you are responding to someone.

But in your post #39, to which I have replied by my post #41, you have apparently used the 'ADD REPLY' button.

As you can see, I have used the REPLY button, in my posts, not the 'ADD REPLY', and so I am clearly indicating who I am responding to.

You label me as a "hypocrite"

Who called you a hypocrite ?

Here also you must use the "REPLY" button.

Other readers have no idea who you are talking to.

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Iloveimamhussain

Islam believes that believing in the Unseen is based on plain and simple logic - not on faith.

Please read again what you said. Even if you make a wholly new definition for the word "faith" what you said makes no sense. First you say Islam has no faith and that believing in the unseen is plain and simple logic, you make no sense. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

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Good post ! Very pertinent !

For those who may not be aware, the Master of the Faithful refers to Imam Ali.

And as with most of Imam Ali's sermons, it is an extraordinary piece of literature and a brilliant gem of philosophy.

The person you trying to have a swipe at claims to be a former Christian.

Imam Husain's statement bears absolutely no relationship to God incarnate. Please read Sn00pking's post above. It might give you a better understanding of the Islamic view.

I am sorry I wasn't plain enough, I meant it exactly as Imam Hussain did, he saw Allah in everything not an incarnation as Christians do.

Please don't try and mock our beliefs. Just as we should not be mocking your Hindu beliefs.

When I said "Christians could say similar things about the concept of a child being in occultation to later return as a Messiah" I was not mocking anyone or anything I was referring to a Christian point of view. You should sometimes walk in another man's mockisins.

And in case you are not aware, the Quran also speaks of Jesus declaring his prophethood and speaking on behalf of his mother, as an infant, perhaps less than a day old. Jesus is regarded by us as a prophet of very high rank. Jesus belongs not only to Christians but to Muslims as well. Here are a few relevant verses from the Holy Quran. I am well aware of that and my faith considers him to be a saintly holy man but as human as you and I.

[19:23] "And the pangs of childbirth drove her (the mother of Jesus) unto the trunk of a palm-tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten! "

[19:24] "Then (the babe) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Your Lord has placed a rivulet beneath you"

[19:30] "He spoke: Lo! I am the slave of God. He has given me the scripture and has appointed me a prophet"

[19:31] "And has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live"

[19:33] "Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"

[19:34] "Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (This is) a statement of truth concerning which they doubt."

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Perhaps I misunderstood you

You probably did.

Please read again what you said.

I always read several times before I press the button. Every single word was meant as it was presented.

If you make a wholly new definition for the word "faith" what you said makes no sense.

Please provide your evidence that I have made out a wholly new definition for the word “faith”.

As far as I am aware. the word "faith" has several nuances. Please check your dictionary, in case you are used to just one meaning.

First you say Islam has no faith

You are misquoting me.

I just couldn't have said that.

Please provide the extract from my post where I said that "Islam has no faith".

The equivalent word in Arabic "Eemaan" meaning “belief” or "faith" and its derivative "Momin" meaning "the believer" or "the faithful" have been used dozens of times in the Quran.

However, the faith that the believer is expected to conform to, is based entirely on reason. Islam does not accept blind faith.

Islam is a religion of justice. The Quran describes God as "The Most Just of the Just" [11:45] and [95:8].

To expect blind faith from someone would be an act of injustice and is completely alien to Islam.

Believing in the unseen is plain and simple logic

If you find fault with the logic I have presented, in my last post, please let me know and we could discuss further.

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You probably did.

I always read several times before I press the button. Every single word was meant as it was presented.

Please provide your evidence that I have made out a wholly new definition for the word “faith”.

As far as I am aware. the word "faith" has several nuances. Please check your dictionary, in case you are used to just one meaning.

You are misquoting me.

I just couldn't have said that.

Please provide the extract from my post where I said that "Islam has no faith".

The equivalent word in Arabic "Eemaan" meaning “belief” or "faith" and its derivative "Momin" meaning "the believer" or "the faithful" have been used dozens of times in the Quran.

However, the faith that the believer is expected to conform to, is based entirely on reason. Islam does not accept blind faith.

Islam is a religion of justice. The Quran describes God as "The Most Just of the Just" [11:45] and [95:8].

To expect blind faith from someone would be an act of injustice and is completely alien to Islam.

If you find fault with the logic I have presented, in my last post, please let me know and we could discuss further.

What I meant to say is simple logic would lead one to not believe in the unseen because it takes faith not logic. I mean you have to have faith and believe because it is a gut feeling and in your heart, it is your heart where God touches you and resides in you not your brain.

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My comments were directed towards the guy who called everyone in SC a hypocrite. So I decided to leave my comment, which was also aimed towards him.

You can believe in the unseen, but with no guide or morals, you would be lost. Just like the guy who decided to label everyone here as a "hypocrite".

You are in over your head son.

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Hi Fatouma,

Quote from Post 1:

I currently attend a Catholic girls high school and religion is a compulsary subject for every single year - obviously . Alhamdulilah it's a great learning experience and the school is very tolerant of other religions. I for one have learnt a lot about Christianity and am very grateful.... BUT... One thing I have always never been able to understand within the religion is the trinity. They say that their God is one, but has 3 parts - father, son, holy spirit - and say that Jesus was also God (astaghfirullah) because in the prayers that's exactly what they call him . So I'm a bit confused, and no teacher from there defines the trinity properly for me And I don't know whether or not you can define that as polytheism (apparently not) but ugh, please explain!!

Response: --- It seems like you have a unique opportunity, to attend a good school and to be able to learn their culture and religion. I am glad that you have learned about Christianity. --- However, some of the Roman Catholic doctrines came out of the Church, and not out of the New Testament.

The doctrine of trinity is a faulty doctrine (not completely untrue), but it needs to be explained.

The second doctrine that ‘Jesus was God,’ comes from their saying, “Holy Mary, mother of God, blessed be the fruit if thy womb, Jesus.” --- While Jesus was born of Mary, there is no place in the NT where Jesus said He was God, nor do any of the Apostles say that Jesus was God.

The third doctrine is that Mary was exalted to a ‘saint’ and ranked with God the Father, --- and Jesus, the Son, --- which would make a different kind of trinity. --- This could give the impression that Jesus was a ‘junior god.’

--- To explain: --- There is a ‘Godhead’ which can be called a tri-unity, but it has been misunderstood by most. --- As a result, the ‘trinity’ is impossible to explain and is the one subject that has dominated many topics here on Shiachat.

There is only One God. The title ‘Al-Lah’ means ‘The God,’ or ‘The Only God,’ does it not? --- Someone said, “God is of Divine Essence that is above Personhood.” --- There is nothing that can be compared to God, or that God can be compared to.

And the God who created the universe of fire and fusion is beyond our understanding. --- Therefore, we can conclude that God has never left heaven, or come to earth, because His very approaching Presence would consume us.

If we start with God in Genesis 1, it says:

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

--- The basic truth from verse 1 is, that ‘God created the heavens and the earth,’ --- but the following verses show that He did not appear to be alone.

Verse 2 says, the ‘Spirit of God,’ moved over the face of the waters, --- and brought life in the sea. --- So, the ‘Spirit of God’ was ‘God’s Holy Spirit,’ --- or the ‘Holy Spirit,’ as written in the Bible and Quran.

In verse 3 God said, “Let there be light,” --- and there was light.

It doesn’t explain how it happened, but it was by the “Power of His Word.”

--- In the Quran, it said about the birth of Jesus in Surah 19:

35. It befits not the Majesty of God that He should take unto Himself a son (It is out of the ordinary and seemingly beneath the Dignity of God, but). --- Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: “Be!” and it is.

So the creative power of God is His Word (Logos). --- And when God speaks the Word, the Logos performs the action. --- As it says, ‘When God decrees a thing, He says unto it only: “Be!” and it is. --- So, “Be!” is the action of God’s Word (Logos) in Creation. --- The Word with a capital W is found various times in the Quran and Hilali Khan often translates it: --- “Word (Be! and it is).”

So in the beginning there were Three, which are mentioned all through the Scriptures. --- God, who is represented as The Father, The Word (Logos), and the Holy Spirit.

The Apostle John says this in 1 John 5:7. “For there are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

--- The Word and the Holy Spirit proceed from God and are not independent of Him, so they are ‘One’ with Him, but there is no sense of them being ‘other gods.’

They can be called a tri-unity, from which comes the word ‘trinity,’ --- but they are not co-equal, as the trinity doctrine states. --- The Father is the Leader and the Word and the Holy Spirit are Servants in their capacity of: Power to create and, --- in the activating of Life, both physical and Spiritual. --- (You will notice also that ‘the Son’ was not there in the beginning.)

(Enough for now, I will add more later. --- Since you are a student, and are used to studying, I will give a detailed answer. --- In the meantime just accept these as ‘their doctrines,’ which you do well to question. --- It is interesting to learn what the Scriptures actually say, rather than what people say about them.)

Placid

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The doctrine of trinity is a faulty doctrine (not completely untrue), but it needs to be explained.

Hi Placid

I think you should make it clear that the above are your views only. The majority of the Christians of the world do not share your views. And that includes Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and most others that we know of.

I cannot remember your telling us which church you belong to but it must be an extremely small congregation.

The second doctrine that ‘Jesus was God,’ comes from their saying, “Holy Mary, mother of God, blessed be the fruit if thy womb, Jesus.”

That is not correct at all.

You are trying to say that they called his mother "Mother of God" first and then it naturally followed that they would call Jesus God.

That is not true.

On the contrary, they called Jesus God first and then his mother naturally became "Mother of God" in consequence.

While Jesus was born of Mary, there is no place in the NT where Jesus said He was God, nor do any of the Apostles say that Jesus was God.

Yes, there is - the gospel of John.

Without doubt, the gospel of John does regard Jesus as God. It even begins with a declaration of the godhead of Jesus.

I am sure you have said earlier that John was an apostle and that he was a first hand source of the gospel that bears his name.

The third doctrine is that Mary was exalted to a ‘saint’ and ranked with God the Father, --- and Jesus, the Son, --- which would make a different kind of trinity. --- This could give the impression that Jesus was a ‘junior god.’

I would request you to please be careful what you say about the mother of Jesus in a Muslim forum. Please do not think that she belongs to Christians only and they can say just whatever they wish to about her.

For us Muslims, she is the purest of the pure, just like her son and at the same level with him and with the greatest prophets of our faith.

So I request you not to make a statement such as 'She was exalted to a saint', as it means that she was very ordinary and implies disrespect.

For us, she is way above any saint that Christians know of.

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salaam:

All of the monotheistic religions have collapsed by the collapse of the most important pillar which is Tawheed ( gods divine Unity)

Unity was the number one and most fundamental message that the prophets came to give and fought for . this is why the enemies of the prophets have always been the polytheists or idol worshipers.

the Devil can not fight the religion conventionally so he targets its most important pillar i.e. Unity and he destroys it from within and all the religions have fallen into this to different levels including islam.

the most convenient way to destroy the understanding of unity is to stop the people from differentiating between the creator and the created by associating the creator with the created.

this could be done by describing god by the lacking attributes of the created or describing the created by the unique attributes of god.

the sad thing is that the devil would use your love for god and religion and will use your love for the holy prophets to make you fall into this ditch.

its the extreme love for Jesus and the masomeen which caused people to elevate their status to the status of god.

the concept of unity:

the concept of unity is the only logical answer to the common question of philosophers.

where did we start? where did we come from ? if the entity that brought us to existence is another finite entity then who brought that entity into existence?

the only logical answer is that the cause of all causes and the start of everything and the initiator is different and not described by the attributes of the finite entities.

Hence god is one who is:

indivisible,

infinite,

beyond description,

un-partitioned,

un-contained,

un- composed,

not located,

not initiated,

not ended,

not complex

and not described by any of the lacking descriptions of the created.

Trinity has few explanations as far as i heard:

1) one saying that Jesus is part of god and god and the holy ghost make up the other two parts so together they make infinity .

2) the other notion is that Jesus is god himself but the human form and hence god takes forms and shapes and the human is created in his image

3) the last one refers to Jesus as some thing in between the created and the creator so he is like a mini god.

the first notion partitions god and makes god into a complex which directly conflicts with unity....

The unity is that god in not composed and has no associates therefore only lacking entities who are created would be composed and would need the associates and partitions. This is because each part or associate would need the other part or associate to be. Also each associate would need to occupy a dimension where the other associate would be absent and absence is and equivalent of lack and weakness and is a unique attribute of the created.

this means we have turned god into three weak idols each of them having the attributes of the created.

the second notion has a logical problem which contradicts basic mathematics and logic and also describes god by the descriptions of the idols.

if Jesus is god himself then what is the point of labeling him a different name and treating them like two separate entities??

If they are the same entity then why does the bible say the father is greater than Jesus?

"You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I,'" (John 14:28).

if you put these logical statements in mathematical terms and ask your teacher you will be notified that there is a mathematical error:

statemenmt one father = Jesus

statemenmt two father > Jesus

substitute equation one into equation two you will get:

Jesus > Jesus

which means Jesus is greater than himself !!!!

how could anything be greater than itself ?

this notion of the trinity wants to convince us that

1 = 3

if 1=3 then anything would be possible

1+1 will not be only 2 but it will be 2 and 6 and 4

then we would have 2=4=6 then anything goes.

The second problem with this notion is that god FORMED in the shape of a limited and finite human namely Jesus. In other terms god has turned into an idol and limited himself and contradicted his unity by putting boundaries on himself and shaping himself and appearing bound by the limited dimensions.

this is not possible because god is infinite and would never be finite because that would mean he would contradict himself.

Its just like saying god is strong but he became weak.

or that god is existing but he seized to exist .

or that god is merciful but he became cruel.

This is impossible because gods attributes are himself not separated.

Finally the third notions is also rejected due to the fact that there is nothing that fits in a logical category existing outside teh two categories of created and creator.... . in the creation you only have two things

1) creator

2) everything else would be the created

so there is nothing in between

finally about Islam

Islam is not immune from these problems and we have fallen in the same traps as the Christians and Jews as the prophet prophesied.

some of us have described God by the attributes of the created like the wahabies and some of the sunni schools of thought where god is described by having a shape and that he would be seen on judgment day and that he is partitioned and has weight and etc.

some of us described the creatures with the unique descriptions of God and this vice is the vice of our own group (shia and suffi) groups where some say the imams have control over every atom in the universe and are associates with god. Some even put a scale and say that the knowledge of the imam or the prophet is just one level lower than god's . ( this was mentioned in the shirazi channel Al anwar by one of their speakers)

salaam

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Hi Peace,

I will respond to your Post 52 later, and you may be correct on one point, but what you said is what is commonly believed by many.

The last line in Post 51, I said this:

--- (It is interesting to learn what the Scriptures actually say, rather than what people say about them.)

However, rather than it just being my opinion, I ask you to check each Bible and Quran reference to see what the verses say.

For the sake of this study, I think it would be good to forget the old prejudices and accept the fact that this student is asking for some explanation, so I want to continue, --- and in the explanation you may discover where the misunderstandings came from, that have caused so much disharmony.

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Hi Fatouma,

To continue with the doctrines:

While I said that I don’t believe God ever left heaven, He has been represented on earth by Personages with divine attributes. --- An example in the OT is Genesis 14:18-20, where it mentions Melchizedek, who was King of Salem and, ‘was the priest of God Most High.’ --- A further description of this Personage is given in Hebrews 7, where it says:

1. For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God,

2. To whom Abraham gave a tenth part of all, --- first being translated, ‘king of righteousness,’ and then also king of Salem, meaning ‘king of peace.’

3. Without father, without mother, having neither beginning of days nor end of life.

--- This had to be a divine Personage that came from God, who represented God as the King of Righteousness and King of Peace, and as a Priest of the Most High God, --- who taught worship and tithing long before the law was given through Moses. And notice, it says, “to whom Abraham gave a tenth part of all.” --- So tithing seemed to be an original practice with Abraham.

Another example in Genesis 18:1-2 where the LORD and two angels appeared to Abraham as ‘three men’ --- which led to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where ‘the LORD’ displayed the Wisdom and Power of God.

I believe that in both cases, it was the Word (Logos) that appeared in a Spiritual, man-sized body, to represent God on earth. --- There are many other examples, but these are sufficient to show that God was manifested in other Personages.

--- This Personage could speak as God or as man in carrying out God’s purpose.

I believe another prominent Manifestation of the Word (Logos) as God in the OT was the LORD of hosts,

Here is why I understand the Word (Logos) to have been a Manifestation of God in the Personage of the LORD of hosts:

--- The Jews were always looking for their Messiah to come and there were many prophecies to encourage them.

In Malachi, the last Book in the OT, there is a prophecy that would be fulfilled in the beginning of the NT, and it is this:

Malachi 3:1. “Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me.

And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple.

Even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight.

Behold He is coming” says the LORD of hosts.

The LORD of hosts has been speaking in Malachi and here He shows the ‘transition’ from one role to another.

“Behold, I (the LORD of hosts) send My messenger (small ‘m’ on messenger meaning John the Baptist who was the forerunner of Jesus)

And he (John) will prepare the way before Me (the LORD of hosts)

And the Lord (capital ‘L’ but small ‘ord’ signifying a difference from the LORD of hosts) whom you seek (their coming Messiah) will suddenly come to His (God’s) temple.

Even the Messenger (capital ‘M’ on Messenger, meaning Jesus, who followed John the Baptist) of the covenant, in whom you delight (in whom you have placed your hopes and in whom you will delight)

Behold He (the new Personage, Jesus) is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.

--- Notice the change from the first person, “I am coming,” --- to the third person, “He is coming.”

The LORD of hosts is never mentioned in the NT as His former role ceased when He took on the role of Jesus, the Son of God.

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (He was God’s Manifestation on earth)

2. He (the Word, Logos) was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made through Him (the Word, Logos), and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(We had established this before, that the Word, Logos was the active force in creation, and here He will take on a new role, as it says):

14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This was the transaction. --- That God said “Be” and it was. --- The Word (Logos) took on the role of a Son, and was planted as a seed in the Virgin Mary.

So Jesus was born human in a body of flesh and blood, but having no earthly father, but He was indwelt by the Word (Logos).

So in this new role, He could speak as a human, or as God, because the Word of God indwelt Him.

--- We could say that from this point on, the Word (Logos), and the Lord Jesus, were synonymous, --- but we can look at that later.

(Enough for now)

Placid

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Hi Fatouma To continue with the doctrines ..... We can look at that later.

Hi Placid

I think the person you are trying to explain your mystical beliefs to is looking for a satisfactory response to her dilemma.

Her dilemma is that she does not believe what she is taught at her Catholic school and is asking for help to explain.

I believe she is looking for logical answers - not the outpouring of another set of Christian beliefs.

And I am sure you haven't noticed but clearly, your writings are extremely abstruse and devoid of logic.

By the time someone finishes reading one of your posts, they could very well need some aspirin.

You have already made two posts trying to explain, and you have indicated that more is to come.

But you still have not been able to provide an explanation that would convince a Muslim.

And that is so because your posts are full of badly supported statements of beliefs rather than rational arguments.

By now, many of us know that you are a good, well-intentioned man - by any yardstick - but you lack the art of writing and logic and you lack the gift of being able to present your arguments coherently and cohesively.

Your posts are a terrible drag. They are excessively long, without any lucidity or grace and the logic is so twisted that I doubt if it would even convince your best friends and supporters.

Even from the Christian viewpoint, there are hardly any bright spots in your posts.

So do you expect a young Muslim girl going to a Catholic school to understand any of it ?

No hard feelings, my friend.

Please be assured that despite some disagreements in the past, I have always held you in respect.

And this is just an honest, friendly advice.

Cheers

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Hi Placid

I think the person you are trying to explain your mystical beliefs to is looking for a satisfactory response to her dilemma.

Her dilemma is that she does not believe what she is taught at her Catholic school and is asking for help to explain.

I believe she is looking for logical answers - not the outpouring of another set of Christian beliefs.

And I am sure you haven't noticed but clearly, your writings are extremely abstruse and devoid of logic.

By the time someone finishes reading one of your posts, they could very well need some aspirin.

You have already made two posts trying to explain, and you have indicated that more is to come.

But you still have not been able to provide an explanation that would convince a Muslim.

And that is so because your posts are full of badly supported statements of beliefs rather than rational arguments.

By now, many of us know that you are a good, well-intentioned man - by any yardstick - but you lack the art of writing and logic and you lack the gift of being able to present your arguments coherently and cohesively.

Your posts are a terrible drag. They are excessively long, without any lucidity or grace and the logic is so twisted that I doubt if it would even convince your best friends and supporters.

Even from the Christian viewpoint, there are hardly any bright spots in your posts.

So do you expect a young Muslim girl going to a Catholic school to understand any of it ?

No hard feelings, my friend.

Please be assured that despite some disagreements in the past, I have always held you in respect.

And this is just an honest, friendly advice.

Cheers

Honest friendly advice with a bite, however I agree with you. His posts besides being far far from the mainstream are long and so convoluted that I have never finished one.

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Hi Fatouma,

To continue with doctrines:

The plan from heaven was for Jesus to be born on earth, so the Angel Gabriel came to the chosen vessel on earth, the Virgin Mary, who was betrothed, or engaged to a man called Joseph.

And the angel visited Mary in the Gospel of Luke chapter 1:

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.

30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.

32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Notice that Jesus would be CALLED the Son of God. He was not the Son of God as though God came down from heaven and had a relationship with Mary, --- But God said, --- “Be!” – and it was, --- Surah 19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then God spoke to Joseph in a dream in Matthew 1.

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:

23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,] which is translated, “God with us.”

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,

25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

(I will add comparable verses from the Quran next Post.)

Placid

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Placid:

Please stop your never ending "to be continued" doctrines as answers to questions that don't require it.

You said:

"While I said that I don’t believe God ever left heaven,"

Your statement implies that God is a physical being if he is to stay in one place and heaven must be a place if a being can stay there. So the question is, Where is heaven? Perhaps it is behind Jupiter or on Saturn, in the trunk going around the DC beltway.

Please keep your answer within 800 words.

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Hi Fatouma,

My advisers (critics) say my posts are like the Sahara Desert, --- long and dry.

But to a student, I hope they are informative. I am a student of the Scriptures and I appreciate the privilege of presenting what the Scriptures teach on these certain subjects on this Muslim, Christian, Jewish forum.

What I have written about Jesus above is verified in these verses in the Quran.

The earliest account is in Surah 19, which is appropriately named, Mary:

(In year 4 of Muhammad’s mission, the small band of Muslims were persecuted in Mecca, so Muhammad advised that “as many as could possibly contrive to do so, to emigrate to the Christian country of Abyssinia,’ for their safety and freedom to worship One God. --- So this was part of the

testimony that Ja’far, Muhammad’s cousin, gave before the Negus (king) of Abyssinia and his council, of what Muslims believed.)

19:19. He (the angel) said, I am only a messenger of the Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal has touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

21. He said: So (It will be). Thy Lord says: it is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

22. And she conceived him and withdrew with him to a far place.

27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

36. Verily God is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.

Note: --- It seems that the statement of truth that is (vainly) disputed can be resolved with these two verses:

21. He said: So (It will be). Thy Lord says: it is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

--- “It is not befitting,” --- it is out of the ordinary, and seemingly below the dignity of God, to bring into being one who was CALLED the Son of God, but: --- ‘When He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is.

And another account in Surah 3:

45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and of the company of God.

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

48. "And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'

(Notice both 19:36 and 3:51 end the context with: “This is a Way that is straight.”

This is why I have said that the Quran verifies to Christians that by believing in God and following [obeying] Jesus, we are following “this Way that is straight.”)

Two more selected verses:

21:91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

66:12. And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).

Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb we breathed of our spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout.

So this miraculous conception and birth is well recorded.

(While this may seem long and unnecessary to list all of these verses, it is good to compare the Scriptures, is it not?)

I will show the fault in the trinity doctrine in the next post.

Placid

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Hi Satyaban,

Quote:

(I had said):

"While I said that I don’t believe God ever left heaven,"

(You said) Your statement implies that God is a physical being if he is to stay in one place and heaven must be a place if a being can stay there. So the question is, Where is heaven? Perhaps it is behind Jupiter or on Saturn, in the trunk going around the DC beltway.

Please keep your answer within 800 words.

Response: --- Jesus had said in John 4, "God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

Someone said, "God is of a Divine Essense that is above Personhood." --- He is above all things and cannot be compared to anything.

God said in the Scripture, "Heaven is My Throne, and earth is my footstool."

This indicates that God is in heaven.

However He has sent Personages to earth to communicate with men.

Where is heaven? --- it is above. The Psalmist said, "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork."

As the earth turns on its axis it keeps revealing another part of God's creation, so, wherever we are on earth, heaven is above us, is it not?

Placid

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placid

"Where is heaven? --- it is above. The Psalmist said, "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork."

As the earth turns on its axis it keeps revealing another part of God's creation, so, wherever we are on earth, heaven is above us, is it not?"

No, not exactly. Wherever we stand we are in the center of the universe, there is no above. Where does that leave us, it leaves us in the kingdom of God because there is no place else. There is no place without God so God can not be someplace else, there is no duality, reality is composed of one principle that is God with no independent parts. Therefore God is everywhere the Kingdom of God is everywhere to include in us and heaven is a state of conscious of the eternal soul.

"However He has sent Personages to earth to communicate with men"

I don't understand why this is necessary, God can communicate with me and with you why do you need someone else to tell you what you need to know. God answers your prayers dosen't he, it may not be the answer you want, or does God send you some incarnation to give you answers?

The devotees belive God will have ten incarnations Krishna being something like number seven how many do you expect?

.

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Hi Fautima,

To finalize the faulty trinity doctrine:

When Jesus grew up He had the Holy Spirit of God and the power of God to perform miracles, Surah 3:48 and 5:110, --- yet He was in a human body. --- A verse says, “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.” --- So the Word (Logos) was this Manifestation of God In the human body of Jesus.

It is hard for people to understand that the Word (Logos) that indwelt Jesus proceeded from God, and could speak as the voice of God, and could manifest God’s power, --- yet Jesus also lived and spoke as a human.

He did not have a human father, and was without sin. --- But having a natural birth as a human, He would have the DNA of His mother Mary, --- therefore, Jesus could not have ‘preceded’ Mary, could He?

Because He demonstrated the power of God, people recognized Him as coming from God, and began to say that He was God, because of the miracles, --- and because He said to people “Your sins are forgiven.” --- The Pharisees said, “Who can forgive sins but God?” So they accused Him of presenting Himself as God, or as the Son of God.

By about 300 AD the Church was becoming more political and less spiritual, so, it was only a short step from there for the organized Church in 325 AD, to form the doctrine of trinity which placed Jesus in the beginning with God (instead of the Word, [Logos] ). --- The doctrine says that the three are co-equal, which gives the false impression that they are three gods that could act independently, but by their Holy nature they are in harmony, therefore, the three are one.

Then they attributed all the creation to Jesus, rather than to the Word (Logos) ---as John had written in the beginning of His Gospel:

1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. He was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made through Him (the Word, Logos), and without Him nothing was made that was made.

--- John said again in 1 John 5: 7. “For there are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

--- It would seem that in forming the doctrine, they replaced the Word (Logos), with Jesus, but maintained --- “these three are one,” --- so they called them ‘co-equal,’ in the Nicean Creed.

All through the Scriptures it is evident that the Father is the Leader and the Word and the Holy Spirit, both having the power and wisdom of God, are at all times obedient to God’s direction, --- therefore, they are Servants. --- When the Word took on the form of flesh in the body of Jesus, in the New covenant (Testament), He became the human Jesus, with the indwelling Word (Logos), who came down from God. --- Then He who was CALLED the Son of God was obedient to His heavenly Father, and as Surah 4:172 says, “The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant unto God, nor will the favoured angels. Whoso scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him.”

Again in the doctrine, if they wrongly attribute the creation of all things to Jesus and call Him God, --- then they can call Mary, not just ‘the mother of Jesus,’ but ‘the mother of God.’ --- Do you see how it became distorted?

In the NT two things happened that changed the relationship of God and man.

God was CALLED the Father, and Jesus was CALLED the Son, so this started the ‘Family of God,’ --- so all true believers become children of God, who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, --- and they can be called ‘brothers and sisters’ in faith.

The second thing is that, since the Word of God indwelt Jesus Christ, the Son, then, --- after people believed in God, and accepted Jesus as their Savior, --- they are baptized, --- as they are instructed in Matthew 28: 19. “Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Now, notice another mystery, --- they are baptized in the ‘name’ (singular), --- not in the ‘names’ (plural), as though they were separate Deities.

From that time on, it was proper to say, “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, because the Word was in Christ.

After His resurrection in the glorified body He is called Jesus Christ, and is still the embodiment of the Word through to the Book of Revelation.

The fault was that they placed Jesus back in the beginning with God instead of understanding that He was born in a human body and was indwelt by the Word (Logos) in the New Testament.

If you understand that this doctrine was the work of men and is not taught in Scripture, then you can see how it has been difficult to explain.

Another proof that it was the work of men was that it led to the Church persecuting and killing some of those who didn’t accept it.

--- God is the author of life, and killing others for the sake of a doctrine, does not come from God, but from men.

--- (Sorry, this may have been long and tedious, but too many things are left unexplained. --- This is to answer your uneasiness about the doctrine of trinity and that they call Jesus, God, in their prayers.

If you try to explain this to others they may not accept it either, but the doctrine of trinity, and the word ‘trinity’ are not in the NT, --- neither is there a Scripture verse where Jesus called Himself God. --- Those who called Him God, or worshipped Him were acknowledging that God (the Word) was in Him).

May God bless you in your studies,

Placid

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The mystery behind the doctorine of Trinity is the belief that God is in Himself pure celestial Love. It was from this Love that He created this world:

Genesis 1

1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. -> God the Father and Creator of the universe

2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. -> The Spirit as God, His presence within the creation

3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. -> The creation by the uttering of the Word, the Logos (Joh. 1)

One God that is celestial Love in Himself. That is the spiritual mystery of the tri-unity.

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Hi Leto,

Your simple explanation is very good. --- The complicated part is when people ask for a detailed explanation.

However, --- for yourself, and Fautima, we need to look at what Muhammad said in Surah 4:171:

Pickthall: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God.

Yusuf Ali: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him:

--- Some Christians had no doubt come to Muhammad to ask, or tell him about the ‘trinity’ which they would have learned from the trinity doctrine which came from a meeting in 325 A D (which is not really taught in the Scriptures.) --- And this is perhaps why Muhammad answered the way He did.

He said, “Don’t exaggerate your religion (or belief), or say anything concerning God, but the truth.”

--- “The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was only a messenger of God.”

(Some translators like Yusuf Ali have [no more than] in brackets, signifying that it was not in the original Arabic. --- However, it can be understood by the explanation that followed.

--- To say that Jesus, the Messiah, was ONLY a messenger, seems like a contradiction because, being the Messiah signifies that He was a Special Messenger who came from God in a special way, --- being born to a virgin mother, Mary, and having no earthly father.

--- If we understand it to say ‘the Messiah Jesus,’ or ‘Christ Jesus,’ was just the ‘messenger’ or ‘vehicle’ that God used to deliver His message to the world, --- then we can see the meaning that ‘Jesus, the son of Mary, was only the ‘vessel’ or ‘vehicle.’ --- But He was the ‘vessel’ or ‘vehicle’ of God (the Father of all), --- and the Word (Logos), which He conveyed unto, or bestowed on, Mary, --- and a Spirit (the Holy Spirit) proceeding from Him (God).

--- So here we see the three, --- God the Father, --- the Word (Logos, -“Be!” – and it is), --- and the Spirit of God (that moved on the face of the waters, in Gen 1:2).

--- Then Muhammad said, “So believe in God and His messengers, or Apostles.” (Notice that ‘messengers’ and ‘Apostles’ are in “plural,” so that means, --- believe in all the messengers and Apostles, including Muhammad).

“AND SAY NOT ‘THREE,’ --- or ‘SAY NOT TRINITY,’ --- cease!, desist! --- it will be better for you.”

“GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD, --- GLORY BE TO HIM.”

So, Leto, you explained it simply, and in harmony with what the Bible says, and with what Muhammad said.

And this is the same as what John said in 1 John 5:7:

For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- and these three are one.

Placid

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Quote from Post 64:

Personally i would like to hear what your OWN opinion and experience is, not facts/information found in texts. Each person has a very personal relationship with God.

HI Esposabella,

Thank you for your interest.

I was born on a farm into a family of 5 boys and 1 girl, along with my Mother and Father. --- I took 2 years of high school, and then began working.

--- During my early life we went to Christian meetings occasionally as there was no Church close in the country, --- but I learned enough to believe in God.

It was some years later, after we were married, and when I was in partnership with one brother, that I became a Christian.

We have two children that are both married and have families. Our son is appropriately called ‘Son of Placid’ on Shiachat. Our daughter is a working mother who has Bible Studies in their home.

You don’t grow up in a Christian family and assume you are a Christian, but rather, there has to be a time of decision, whether you are young or old.

The Lord brings you under conviction of your sin and unworthiness before Him, and you bow to Him and ‘surrender your will to His.’ You accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and role model and begin the Christian walk of Faith.

I have studied the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments and have been involved in interdenominational organizations on a local level. --- I worked 25 years in a Christian Mission as Operations Manager and Councilor, where we worked with --- alcoholics, drug addicts and unemployables.

--- After 9/11, I began to read the Quran which I had on my bookshelf. It is the Pickthall translation with the history of Muhammad and Islam, (which means, The Surrender}. --- There is an intro to each Surah which gives the time it was written and the main purpose and message.

You see, as a Christian we want to be led by God’s Holy Spirit, who indwells us as a result of our decision to follow God’s will in our lives. --- Therefore, I believe that God led me to study the Quran and to have the privilege of contributing the Christian perspective on this forum.

I have also studied the healing and deliverance ministry.

I believe the Bible to be true because God would not preserve a Book to lead people to Himself that was not true, would He? --- There is no place in the Quran where either Gabriel, or Muhammad have criticism of the New Testament, or where they point out any errors, --- but rather, the Quran honors the Gospel.

I believe the Scripture in the Quran and I believe that God chose Muhammad as a Prophet to deliver Arabia from their idolatry, and bring them back to the worship of our One God. --- Which he did in his 23 year Mission

Enough for now. --- If you have questions or comments, they are welcome.

Placid

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The Scriptures clearly speak of the Godhead. The 'modern' term is the Trinity. I prefer the former because that is the term used in Scripture. This is the basis for the belief within the Scriptures:

Genesis 1:26 -27

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Col. 2-6-9

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Acts 17:29 - 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 - 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Godhead is One in purpose. The three beings within this Godhead can be seen in separate instances and together within the Scriptures. All were involved in Creation and all involved in Redemption within the Bible. All have the same principles. The same requirements. The same position. Thus, they are One in purpose, therefore One God.

Edited by iere

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The Scriptures clearly speak of the Godhead. The 'modern' term is the Trinity. I prefer the former because that is the term used in Scripture. This is the basis for the belief within the Scriptures:

The Godhead is One in purpose. The three beings within this Godhead can be seen in separate instances and together within the Scriptures. All were involved in Creation and all involved in Redemption within the Bible. All have the same principles. The same requirements. The same position. Thus, they are One in purpose, therefore One God.

What version of the Bible are you using?

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