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Sorena

Infallibility And Ilm Ul Qaib To Imams ==> Shirk ?

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I have this ahle sunna friend who says that considering the Imams infallible and knowing the unseen is shirk and that these are the virtues of Allah only.

Infalliblity: He says not even the prophets pbut are infallible and only Allah is infallible (And he says even our prophet made a mistake and he missed his prayer during the war of khandagh) ( he bring other examples of prophets making mistakes as well).

Knowing the unseen: he says that even the prophet pbuh didn't have knowledge of the unseen (and then he says this story when the prophet pbuh was about to walk into a trap and then jibrael came to him and warned him about the trap (something like this) so the prophet didn't know this until god warned him), also they say how can the Imams have knowledge about the spiritual world?

My questions:

1. What do we mean by infallible?

2. How can I prove to him that the Imams have knowledge about the unseen?

3. How can I prove to him that prophets and the Imams were infallible?

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I think you should avoid the company of this "ahle sunna friend"...

LOL!

Salaams,

when we say the imams are infallible, its not in the same way that Allah (swt) is infallible. Allah (swt) is not human (obviously) and so has no desire to sin due to him having no feelings. imams, on the other hand, CAN sin but choose not to and the concept of sinning never crosses their minds due to their high level of piety.

hope that helps,

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My questions:

1. What do we mean by infallible?

2. How can I prove to him that the Imams have knowledge about the unseen?

3. How can I prove to him that prophets and the Imams were infallible?

1. Someone who doesn't sin or make mistakes. Now they are going to say "only God is infallible." You reply by saying that a infallibility of a human is different from the infallibility of God. God is ultimate perfection in His realm and dimension, a Prophet or Imam is human perfection.

2. Ayatul Kursi (2:225)

"Allah! There is no deity except He, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great."

As you can see - some people are given knowledge of the unseen. Also refer to the story of Moses and Khidr in the Quran, (Chapter 18:65-82). One example:

"one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves" (18:65)

3. They won't accept 33:33 as being proof of infallibility of the Prophet (pbuh) and the Ahlulbayt (as) so use the logical argument. If the Prophets (as) are able to make mistakes and sins, how can I accept an order given by them? If they are able to make errors, we cannot trust their judgement, therefore calling the message of the religion into question.

Edited by Replicant

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I think you should avoid the company of this "ahle sunna friend"...

+Infinity

My questions:

1. What do we mean by infallible?

2. How can I prove to him that the Imams have knowledge about the unseen?

3. How can I prove to him that prophets and the Imams were infallible?

Stop questioning and follow what big brother posted above. :)

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Sallam Alliekom

AhlulSunnah Believe in the Infallibity of atleast the Prophet (pbuh) .. the Beleif of the Prophet Commiting Mistakes & Sins is a Wahabi Beleif, so either your friend is a Wahabi or a sunni Influenced by the Wahabi Media

Infallibity is protection from Shaitan.. and those who presents Allah's (SWT) Religion to all humanity must be atleast protected from Shaitan so that the message doesnt be in Danger

so i ask you this .. Are the Angels are Infallible? .. Both Sunni's & Shia's Believe the Angels are Infallible .. but they don't have "shahwa" as humans do ..

So since the Angel's are infallible are they infallible do the degree of Allah's Astagfurallah?

to say the Prophet (pbuh) is infallible is shirk and only Allah is infallible it is actually a limitation to Allah Astagfurallah .. Because Allah have all attributes that is beyond our imagination or mind can comprehend, for Example i can see only what is around me.. Allah Also can See .. But he Can see Beyond and All Seeing of all things that is not imaginable..

see what i mean? .. so saying the Prophet (pbuh) is infallible no way means that it is to the Point of Allah's

i can go on more about this matter, but i lost all my files i stored when i formatted my computer

Also keep in mind that the Anti-Islam websites who try to proof islam as a false religion is from the "sins & Mistakes" of the Prophet .. and when they can establish & make these proofs that the Prophet sins & Commit mistakes so he cannot be trusted, hence they can claim Islam is false religion .. it is Because of these beleifs of "certain muslims" hold of The Prophet commiting Mistakes

The Almight Sends his Perfect Religion through the Perfect Man "Muhammed (pbuh)" .. and just as a lecture from hassanian Rajabali said "Try to get Pure water through unpure water, you'll never get Pure water as a result" ..

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[quote name=Dead-Man' timestamp='1296511401' post='2153018'3

Sallam Alliekom

Infallibity is protection from Shaitan.. and those who presents Allah's (SWT) Religion to all humanity must be atleast protected from Shaitan so that the message doesnt be in Danger

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Surah Tukathur:

[Yusufali 102:5] Nay, were ye to know with certainty of mind, (ye would beware!)

[Yusufali 102:6] Ye shall certainly see Hell-Fire!

Alhamdolillah, Shia believe that Allah (swt) sent our religion through one who had "Ilm al Yaqeen" i.e. certainty. It is IMPOSSIBLE for any human to have a certain knowledge and to continue indulging in what is harmful to oneself.

Like when Imam said "The world is like a snake, small children try to play with it while men (who know it's harm) stay away."

salam.gif

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ibn taymmia claimed to have knoweldge of unseen, and his student even says that ibn taymmia predicted things about his student which came true!!

if ibn taymmia knows the unseen, then he is "shaikh ul Islam" but if Shias say the God chosen Imams (as) know the unseen, Shias are kuffar.......

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Just one thing, he was saying that Shias claim that the imams know everything in the past, present and future, AND have knowledge of the unseen.

What do we believe about the Imam's knowledge?

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Just one thing, he was saying that Shias claim that the imams know everything in the past, present and future, AND have knowledge of the unseen.

What do we believe about the Imam's knowledge?

(salam)

I am not completely sure about the exact belief, but whatever it is, just remember that the Imams Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ONLY acquire this knowledge due to Allah's will, and it is Allah who allows them to know.

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Just one thing, he was saying that Shias claim that the imams know everything in the past, present and future, AND have knowledge of the unseen.

What do we believe about the Imam's knowledge?

NOBODY knows when Qiyamat is or when the return of the Imam (as) is, except God.

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Well heres how someone explained infallibility to me

The Prophet and Imams are capable of committing sin but they never will. Because they understand the religion and Allah so well that they would never ever sin.

Its like a test proctor standing in between you and the smart person you want to copy, you are 100% capable of cheating, but you wont because you know the consequences are severe. The Prophets and Imams would never do anything to offend Allah, because in their every action they would be aware of Allah and what he is pleased with and unhappy with. Just because of their caliber of faith.

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A good video i watched. A brother says I am merciful, i am just etc etc. This doesnt mean he is commiting shirk because he has the same attributes as Allah. It means that Allah is the Most Just, the most merciful. Its completly differnt to what he has given to his servants.

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I hate this word infallible.. who translated masoom into infallible anyway? Its so wrong. Infallible: someone that cannot commit error. Masoom: someone who doesn't (not necessarily can't) commit sin. There's a BIG difference.

Edited by Jay

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As I am not above making Mistakes, and I am not safe from making Mistakes in my Actions”.

Source: Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 216.

This is sermon 216, please show me where you took the quote from?

SERMON 216

About the excesses of the Quraysh

O' my Allah! I beseech Thee to take revenge on the Quraysh and those who are assisting them, for they have cut asunder my kinship and over-turned my cup and have joined together to contest a right to which I was entitled more than anyone else. They said to me: "If you get your right, that will be just, but if you are denied the right, that too will be just. Endure it with sadness or kill yourself in grief." I looked around but found no one to shield me, protect me or help me except the members of my family. I refrained from flinging them into death and therefore closed my eyes despite the dust, kept swallowing saliva despite (the suffocation of) grief and endured pangs of anger although it was more bitter than colocynth and more grievous than the bite of knives.

A part of the same sermon about those who went to Basrah to fight Amir al-mu'minin

They marched on my officers and the custodians of the public treasury which is still under my control and on the people of a metropolis, all of whom were obedient to me and were in allegiance to me. They created division among them, instigated their party against me and attacked my followers. They killed a group of them by treachery, while another group took up swords against them and fought with the swords till they met Allah as adherents to truth.

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ÝóáÇó Êõßóáøöãõæäöí ÈóãóÇ Êõßóáøóãõ Èöåö ÇáúÌóÈóÇÈöÑóÉõ¡ æóáÇó ÊóÊóÍóÝøóÙõæÇ ãöäøöí ÈöãóÇ íõÊóÍóÝøóÙõ Èöåö ÚöäúÏó Ãóåúáö ÇáúÈóÇÏöÑóÉö æóáÇó ÊõÎóÇáöØõæäöí ÈÇáúãõÕóÇäóÚóÉö æóáÇó ÊóÙõäøæÇ Èöíó ÇÓúÊöËúÞóÇáÇð Ýöí ÍóÞòø Þöíáó áöí¡ æóáÇó ÇáúöÊãóÇÓó ÅöÚúÙóÇãò áöäóÝúÓöí¡ ÝóÅöäøóåõ ãóäö ÇÓúÊóËúÞóáó ÇáúÍóÞøó Ãóäú íõÞóÇáó áóåõ Ãóæú ÇáúÚóÏúáó Ãóäú íõÚúÑóÖó Úóáóíúåö¡ ßóÇäó ÇáúÚóãóáõ ÈöåöãóÇ ÃóËúÞóáóÚóáóíúåö. ÝóáÇó ÊóßõÝøõæÇ Úóäú ãóÞóÇáò ÈöÍóÞòø¡ Ãóæú ãóÔõæÑóÉò ÈöÚóÏúáò¡ ÝóÅöäøöí áóÓúÊõ Ýöí äóÝúÓöí ÈöÝóæúÞö Ãóäú ÃõÎúØöìÁó¡ æóáÇó Âãóäõ Ðáößó ãöäú ÝöÚúáöí¡ ÅöáÇøó Ãóäú íóßúÝöíó Çááåõ ãöäú äóÝúÓöí ãóÇ åõæó Ãóãúáóßõ Èöåö ãöäøöí ÝóÅäøóãóÇ ÃóäóÇ æóÃóäúÊõãú ÚóÈöíÏñ ãóãúáõæ ßõæäó áöÑóÈøò áÇó ÑóÈøó ÛóíúÑõåõ¡ íóãúáößõ ãöäøóÇ ãóÇ áÇó äóãúáößõ ãöäú ÃóäúÝõÓöäóÇ¡ æóÃóÎúÑóÌóäóÇ ãöãøóÇ ßõäøóÇ Ýöíåö Åöáóì ãóÇ ÕóáóÍúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö¡ ÝóÃóÈúÏóáóäóÇ ÈóÚúÏó ÇáÖøóáÇóáóÉö ÈöÇáúåõÏóì¡ æóÃóÚúØóÇäóÇ ÇáúÈÕöíÑóÉó ÈóÚúÏó ÇáúÚóãóì.

[216]

æãä ÎØÈÉ áå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

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ÝóáÇó Êõßóáøöãõæäöí ÈóãóÇ Êõßóáøóãõ Èöåö ÇáúÌóÈóÇÈöÑóÉõ¡ æóáÇó ÊóÊóÍóÝøóÙõæÇ ãöäøöí ÈöãóÇ íõÊóÍóÝøóÙõ Èöåö ÚöäúÏó Ãóåúáö ÇáúÈóÇÏöÑóÉö æóáÇó ÊõÎóÇáöØõæäöí ÈÇáúãõÕóÇäóÚóÉö æóáÇó ÊóÙõäøæÇ Èöíó ÇÓúÊöËúÞóÇáÇð Ýöí ÍóÞòø Þöíáó áöí¡ æóáÇó ÇáúöÊãóÇÓó ÅöÚúÙóÇãò áöäóÝúÓöí¡ ÝóÅöäøóåõ ãóäö ÇÓúÊóËúÞóáó ÇáúÍóÞøó Ãóäú íõÞóÇáó áóåõ Ãóæú ÇáúÚóÏúáó Ãóäú íõÚúÑóÖó Úóáóíúåö¡ ßóÇäó ÇáúÚóãóáõ ÈöåöãóÇ ÃóËúÞóáóÚóáóíúåö. ÝóáÇó ÊóßõÝøõæÇ Úóäú ãóÞóÇáò ÈöÍóÞòø¡ Ãóæú ãóÔõæÑóÉò ÈöÚóÏúáò¡ ÝóÅöäøöí áóÓúÊõ Ýöí äóÝúÓöí ÈöÝóæúÞö Ãóäú ÃõÎúØöìÁó¡ æóáÇó Âãóäõ Ðáößó ãöäú ÝöÚúáöí¡ ÅöáÇøó Ãóäú íóßúÝöíó Çááåõ ãöäú äóÝúÓöí ãóÇ åõæó Ãóãúáóßõ Èöåö ãöäøöí ÝóÅäøóãóÇ ÃóäóÇ æóÃóäúÊõãú ÚóÈöíÏñ ãóãúáõæ ßõæäó áöÑóÈøò áÇó ÑóÈøó ÛóíúÑõåõ¡ íóãúáößõ ãöäøóÇ ãóÇ áÇó äóãúáößõ ãöäú ÃóäúÝõÓöäóÇ¡ æóÃóÎúÑóÌóäóÇ ãöãøóÇ ßõäøóÇ Ýöíåö Åöáóì ãóÇ ÕóáóÍúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö¡ ÝóÃóÈúÏóáóäóÇ ÈóÚúÏó ÇáÖøóáÇóáóÉö ÈöÇáúåõÏóì¡ æóÃóÚúØóÇäóÇ ÇáúÈÕöíÑóÉó ÈóÚúÏó ÇáúÚóãóì.

[216]

æãä ÎØÈÉ áå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

Need to post the source and scan from where u r taking it. and a translation of the text as you may have noticed this is an english language forum

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Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 124

When Ibrahim (A) was made an Imam - He asked, Allah about his progeny.

Allah (swt) said , "My covenant does not reach the unjust.

Even one single sin is a zulm on oneself (unjust) - Therefore being without sin = infallible.

In the linage of prophet Ibrahim (a) the only Imam we see are the 12 imams.

Since the covenant only reaches the just - one can safely say Imam (a) were (sinless) infallible.

Also remember Ali (A) had to overtake Abubakr and take the ayiet and deliver / announce to the Kufar of Mecca BECAUSE Allah instructed the the ayiet should only be delivered by prophet (sawws) or be one of his own.

Allah knows best.

Edited by Ali Fazel

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Need to post the source and scan from where u r taking it. and a translation of the text as you may have noticed this is an english language forum

You need to know some basic Arabic if you aspire to debate about Islam

http://www.balaghah.net/admin/matn.php?id=1〈=ara&number=216

Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above making mistakes

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I have this ahle sunna friend who says that considering the Imams infallible and knowing the unseen is shirk and that these are the virtues of Allah only.

Infalliblity: He says not even the prophets pbut are infallible and only Allah is infallible (And he says even our prophet made a mistake and he missed his prayer during the war of khandagh) ( he bring other examples of prophets making mistakes as well).

Knowing the unseen: he says that even the prophet pbuh didn't have knowledge of the unseen (and then he says this story when the prophet pbuh was about to walk into a trap and then jibrael came to him and warned him about the trap (something like this) so the prophet didn't know this until god warned him), also they say how can the Imams have knowledge about the spiritual world?

My questions:

1. What do we mean by infallible?

2. How can I prove to him that the Imams have knowledge about the unseen?

3. How can I prove to him that prophets and the Imams were infallible?

infallible is a maasoom,,, its not that that cant sin is that they wouldnt,,, {ask yourself this question- CAN u go outside naked,, BUT WOULD you go outside naked}

Allah swt,, has the power to give who ever he pleases the knowledge of the unseen,, have u heard of something called {be and it will be},,, thats wat it is

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Guest Muhamad

I think you should avoid the company of this "ahle sunna friend"...

so because this person says that only Allah is perfect and all-seeing .. because of that you spread fitnah!!! haram!!

LOL!

Salaams,

when we say the imams are infallible, its not in the same way that Allah (swt) is infallible. Allah (swt) is not human (obviously) and so has no desire to sin due to him having no feelings. imams, on the other hand, CAN sin but choose not to and the concept of sinning never crosses their minds due to their high level of piety.

hope that helps,

infallibe is infallible .. there is no "way" with this .. it is absolute and all-encompassing statment .. THAT ONLY BELONGS TO Allah swt

A good video i watched. A brother says I am merciful, i am just etc etc. This doesnt mean he is commiting shirk because he has the same attributes as Allah. It means that Allah is the Most Just, the most merciful. Its completly differnt to what he has given to his servants.

saying anybody is infallible is like saying that he sees all, knows all, is infinitely just, infinitly powerful, capable of all, etc etc .. that is shirk in your disguise .. do you think the devil will make us do shirk with us knowing it?? lack of faith = ignorance = blindness

and anybody who refutes arrogantly will just get more blind .. remember faith is in the heart

Well heres how someone explained infallibility to me

The Prophet and Imams are capable of committing sin but they never will. Because they understand the religion and Allah so well that they would never ever sin.

Its like a test proctor standing in between you and the smart person you want to copy, you are 100% capable of cheating, but you wont because you know the consequences are severe. The Prophets and Imams would never do anything to offend Allah, because in their every action they would be aware of Allah and what he is pleased with and unhappy with. Just because of their caliber of faith.

never ever are big words when taken literally .. no human is perfect!!! get that in your hearts please ..

prophets are simply the best among mankind, but they make mistakes like any human .. just check the quran .. ya Allah ..

+Infinity

Stop questioning and follow what big brother posted above. :)

stop questioning?? what do you want people to believe fellow "big brothers" BLINDLY? while spreading fitnah?? Allah forbid against fitnah and ignorance ya Rabb ..

Just one thing, he was saying that Shias claim that the imams know everything in the past, present and future, AND have knowledge of the unseen.

What do we believe about the Imam's knowledge?

saying that any other than Allah is all-knowing .. all-seeing .. infallible is associating Allah's attributes .. that is as obvious as can get SO FEAR Allah

don't follow any human opinions blindly, because most of them are astray .. use your own faith and understand your religion in your own clear way.

Great men have see more and understood more of the unseen than our average man .. they also committed less errors .. however, saying anything absolutely ONLY applies to Allah swt

all the best on your journey

(salam)

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