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ur wellwisher

When Did Hz Umar(ra) Say These Words?

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Chill out. We're just having quality banter. We aren't insulting no one, we are quoting what THEY say. If they get offended by this, then they are finding their own words offensive.

Trust me I might even consider joining you guys on this, but at an appropriate time and place(forum), I just want the main question to be answered. the theme for this thread. Just thirsty for knowledge, thats all.

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Hey! Stop insulting my beloved Umar. He was a brave warrior. The only reason he ran away from battles is because it was "Allah's will."

Don't misguide ppl... with your twisted history... he was a grave warrior (yes grave) and it wasn' t "Allah's will" that made him run away from battles rather the horse's will that he was riding....

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Don't want to spoil your fun - but ............................

Have you heard, ' a foolish friend is worst than a wise enemy'.

Brothers - this type of behaviour creates problems for all Muslimeen (the Shias as well as Sunni)

It helps our enemy divide us and rule over us. - You are actually helping the Enemies of Islam (US and Israel and others) dominate Islam.

Do you want to stand accused on the day og judgement of harming the cause of Islam?

Imam Khomeini (who was a wali faqih) said one who creates fasaat between Shia - Sunni is neither a Shia nor a Sunni (he is an enemy of both)

Sayied Ali Khameini (present day - Wali e faqih) has forbidden these things.

According to the fatwa of many mujtahideen it is wajib to obey wali-e faqih (no matter whose taqleed you are doing) - Check with the Mujtahid you follow.

So - This is not a funny joke - its a Sin.

I have no compassion for a person who put a rope around Imam Ali's neck and dragged him to Mosque to forcefully extract allegiance.

My blood boils when I hear these people collected sticks to burn the house of Fatimah (a) down and even hurt her.

I do not like those who created fasaat in the ummah of prophet (sawws).

But Brothers, being Shia, (if we are real Shia-e-Ali (A)) We should not dare disobey the wali faqih of our time.

Remember - In battle of Jamal Ali (A) ordered his army not to respond to insults or provocation of the person who would come forward to incite them.

Earlier, Zubair had a word with Ali (A), and Ali (A) reminded him of the warning of prophet (sawws) regarding this confrontation. Thereafter Zubair was shaken and wanted no part of this war.

But due to pressure from the followers of Ayiesha on one side, AND his nafs forbidding him from confronting Ali (A), he found himself trapped.

Zuhair decided to incite the army of Ali (A), so that in the rage they would Kill him. BUT no matter what he did, Ali's followers remained stead fast.

They stood motionless, and did not respond to Zuhairs insults and provocations.

Zuhair, failing to incite Ali's followers into killing him, rode away from the battle field and was killed by one of the munafiqeen from the camp of Ayiesha.

Also note (after the demise of Prophet (sawws)) when the enemy (standing in Ali's house) showed arrogance against Ali (A) - at that time both Salmaan and Abu zarr were present.

Salmaan just kept his eye towards Ali (A) waiting for orders - and did not react.

WHILE Abu zarr's could not tolerate this, and his hands moved towards his sword, Ali (A) had to signalled Abu zarr to remain calm.

Ali's followers are expected to show high degree of tolerance and wisdom and obedience.

(This also showed the high status of salmaan to that of Abu-zarr).

---------------------------

Obedience (to wali faqih) is more important than making a show of your love for Ali (A) and your hate towards the enemies of Ali (A).

Acting with wisdom is better than being a foolish friend.

Today If you are truly Shias - and those who love Ali (A), you are expected to refrain from such actions, because Rahber Khamini has forbidden us. Because the mujtaheedeen you follow order you to obey the Wali Faqih Rahber Khameini.

-------------------------------------------

I thought SHIA CHATS do not allow such Sins.

Where are the Mods? Is it not your duty to advice the brothers here?

Edited by Ali Fazel

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In all seriousness, I think these words were said by Umar on many occasions. One of the instances was when the 5 fornicators came to Umar and he sentenced them all to death. Then Imam Ali (as) stopped him and gave 5 different rulings because Umar didn't consider the conditions (which shows his lack of knowledge, which raises questions why he was a caliph). You can read it here (from Anecdotes of Reflection Part 3), although the "perish" line is different here:

1 – Five Fornicators and Five Rulings

Five persons, who had committed fornication, were brought before Umar, who ordered them to be subjected to the legal punishment for the crime. At that moment the Commander of the Faithful (a.s) arrived and said: "O' Umar! Allah's ruling in their case is not as you have ruled!" Umar requested: "You issue the ruling for them and implement the legal punishment."

The Imam (a.s) beheaded the first person, stoned the second, subjected the third to the full punishment of eighty lashes, the fourth to half the punishment and ordered the discretionary punishment for the fifth!

Umar was amazed and the people astounded over the Imam's (a.s) ruling. Umar asked him: "O' Abul Hasan! Five persons were involved in one crime and you have issued different rulings for all of them?"

the Commander of the Faithful(a.s) explained: "The first person was a dhimmi,[64]) who had transgressed (the honour of) a Muslim woman and so had fallen out of the dhimmah[65]) - as such, his punishment could only be death.

The second person who had committed fornication possessed a spouse and so I had him stoned. The third one to have been involved in the crime did not have a wife and so I punished him with eighty lashes.

The fourth was a slave and therefore I subjected him to half the legal punishment (of eighty lashes), while the fifth one was poor of intellect due to which I subjected him to the discretionary punishment (some lashes)."

Hearing the explanation Umar exclaimed: "O' Abul Hasan! May it never happen that I have to live with the people when you are not around (to help me)!"

Edited by Replicant

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Lies, Lies, the Rafidihis do nothing but lie, and they curse the Sahaba and the Sayaddate Nisa il Alameen Ummul Momineen Ayesha (ra)!

They dont pray to God, they say Ya Ali whenever they need help.

Do not fall into their lies, even if the use our books, they do crazy magic on you bro! All their scholars are well loaded by the 20% Khums they must give on Shias annual income

Hopefully Allah will save us from thes Shia, you know they're mentioned in the Quran as ones creating sects and their Mahdi is actually the Dajjal who will come from Isfahan.

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Hadith from Shia sources:

كافي ، كليني ، ج 7 ، ص 424، تهذيب الاحكام ، شيخ طوسي ، ج 6 ، ص 606، ج 10 ، ص50، من لايحضره الفقيه ، شيخ صدوق ، ج 4 ، ص 36 ،‌اختصاص ، شيخ مفيد ، ص 111 و 149 مناقب آل ابي طالب ، ابن شهر آشوب ، ج 1 ، ص 311 ، المسترشد ، طبري شيعي ، ص 548 و 583 ، شرح الاخبار ، قاضي نعمان ، ج 2 ، ص 319 ، مدينه المعاجز ، علامه بحراني ، ج 2 ، ص 460 و ج 5 ، ص 71، الشافي في الامامة ، سيد مرتضي ، ج 1 ، ص 203، ج 3 ، ص 130 ، منهاج الكرامة ، علامه حلي ، ص 18، الطرائف ، سيد ابن طاووس ، ص 255 و 516.

The hadith from Sunni sources:

تاويل مختلف الحديث ، ابن قتيبه ، ص 152، مواقف ، ايجي ، ج 3 ، ص 627 و 636، شرح مقاصد ، تفتازاني ، ج 2 ، ص 294 ، التفسير الكبير ، فخررازي ، ج 21 ، ص 22،شرح نهج البلاغه ، ابن ابي الحديد ‌، ج 1 ، ص 18و ج 12 ، ص 179، تمهيد الاوائل ، باقلاني ، ص 476 ، مناقب علي ابن ابيطالب ، ابن مردويه اصفهاني ، ص 88، ينابيع المودة ، قندوزي حنفي ، ج 1 ، ص 216و ج 2 ، ص 172و ج 3 ، ص 147 ، تاويل مختلف الحديث ، ابن قتيبه، ج 1 ، ص 162، تمهيد الاوائل في تلخيص الدلائل ، باقلاني ، ج 1 ، ص 476 و 547 ، الحاوي الکبير ، ماوردي شافعي ، ج 12 ، ص 115 و ج 13 ، ص 213 ، تفسير سمعاني ، ج 5 ، ص 154 ، المفصل في صنعه الاعراب ، زمخشري ، ج 1 ، ص 432 ، العواصم من القواصم ، ابوبکر بن عربي ، ج 1 ، ص 203 ، حاشيه الرملي ، رملي ، ج 4 ص 39 ، الجد الحثيث ، سعودي غزي عامري ، ج 1 ، ص 186، بريقه محموديه ، محمد بن محمد خادمي ، ج 2 ص 108، منع الجليل ، محمد عليش ، ج 9 ، ص 648، دستور العلماء ، قاضي عبدالنبي نکري، ج 1 ، ص 80.

The scenarios in which Umar mentioned this:

1 . قال أحمد ابن زهير حدثنا عبيد الله بن عمر القواريري حدثنا مؤمل بن إسماعيل حدثنا سفيان الثوري عن يحيى بن سعيد عن سعيد بن المسيب قال كان عمر يتعوذ بالله من معضلة ليس لها أبو الحسن وقال في المجنونة التي أمر برجمها وفى التي وضعت لستة أشهر فأراد عمر رجمها فقال له على إن الله تعالى يقول وحملة وفصاله ثلاثون شهرا الحديث وقال له إن الله رفع القلم عن المجنون الحديث فكان عمر يقول لولا على لهلك عمر.

About the insane woman who Umar had sentenced to be stoned to death and about the woman who gave birth after six months, so Umar decided to stone them to death. Ali (as) said to him, verily Allah (swt) has said “The carrying of the [child] to his weaning is [a period of] thirty months.”...He also said, verily Allah (swt) has taken duty off of the insane ones...so Umar said: “If Ali (as) had not been there, Umar would have been ruined.”

استيعاب ابن عبدالبر ج 3 ص 1103.

The chain of narrators:

Sa’eed bin Musib (of the narrators in Sahih Bukhari)

سعيد بن المسيب ... أحد العلماء الأثبات الفقهاء الكبار من كبار الثانية اتفقوا على أن مرسلاته أصح المراسيل وقال ابن المديني لا أعلم في التابعين أوسع علما منه.

تقريب التهذيب - ابن حجر - ج 1 ص 364.

Yahya Bin Sa’eed (of the narrators in Sahih Bukhari)

يحيى بن سعيد بن قيس بن عمرو ، الإمام أبو سعيد الأنصاري ، قاضي السفاح ، عن أنس ، وابن المسيب ، وعنه مالك ، والقطان ، حافظ فقيه حجة ، مات 143

الكاشف في معرفة من له رواية في كتب الستة - الذهبي - ج 2 ص 366.

يحيى بن سعيد بن قيس الأنصاري المدني أبو سعيد القاضي ثقة ثبت ، من الخامسة مات سنة أربع وأربعين أو بعدها / ع .

تقريب التهذيب - ابن حجر - ج 2 ص 303.

Sufian Thoori (of the narrators in Sahih Bukhari)

وقال شعبة ، وسفيان بن عيينة ، وأبو عاصم النبيل ، ويحيى بن معين ، وغير واحد من العلماء : سفيان أمير المؤمنين في الحديث .

تهذيب الكمال - المزي - ج 11 ص 165.

Mawmil bin Isma’il (of the narrators in Sahih Bukhari)

مؤمل بن إسماعيل البصري العمري مولاهم ... قال أبو حاتم : صدوق شديد في السنة كثير الخطأ ... مات 206 . ت س ق .

الكاشف في معرفة من له رواية في كتب الستة - الذهبي - ج 2 ص 309.

قال ابن أبي خيثمة عن ابن معين ثقة وقال عثمان الدارمي قلت لابن معين أي شئ حاله فقال ثقة قلت هو أحب إليك أو عبيد الله يعني ابن موسى فلم يفضل وقال أبو حاتم صدوق شديد في السنة كثير الخطأ .

تهذيب التهذيب - ابن حجر - ج 10 ص 340

AbdAllah bin Umar Alqawariry (of the narrators in Sahih Bukhari)

عبيد الله بن عمر القواريري أبو سعيد البصري الحافظ روى مائة ألف حديث ... مات في ذي الحجة 235 . خ م د س.

الكاشف في معرفة من له رواية في كتب الستة - الذهبي - ج 1 ص 685.

عبيد الله بن عمر بن ميسرة القواريري أبو سعيد البصري نزيل بغداد ثقة ثبت.

تقريب التهذيب - ابن حجر - ج 1 ص 637.

Ahmad bin Zahir

احمد بن زهير بن حرب بن شداد ... الحافظ الكبير ابن الحافظ ... قال الخطيب كان ثقة عالما متقنا حافظا بصيرا بأيام الناس وأئمة الأدب.

لسان الميزان - ابن حجر - ج 1 ص 174

Therefore, this hadith is authentic based on the sources of Hadith of Ahl Sunna.

2 . ان رجلا اتى به إلى عمر كأن قال : في جوابهم لما سألوه كيف أصبحت قال : أصبحت أحب الفتنة ، وأكره الحق ، واصدق اليهود والنصارى ، وآمن بما لم أره وأقر بما لم يخلق ، فأرسل عمر إلى علي ( ع ) فلما جاء اخبره بما قال الرجل فقال : صدق قال الله تعالى : إنما أموالكم وأولادكم فتنة ، ويكره الحق يعني الموت ، قال الله تعالى وجائت سكرة الموت بالحق ، وصدق اليهود والنصارى قال الله تعالى : وقالت اليهود ليست النصارى على شئ وقالت النصارى ليست اليهود على شئ ، ويؤمن بما لم يره يعني الله ، ويقر بما لم يخلق يعني الساعة فقال عمر : لولا علي لهلك عمر .

نظم درر السمطين زرندي حنفي ص 130.

One day a man came to Umar and the man was asked about how his condition was when he woke up in the morning. The man answered: I woke up while I loved mischief (fitna) and hated the truth. I agreed with the Christians and Jews and I believed in what I had not seen and acknowledged what is not created. Umar asked for Ali (as) and when Ali (as) came he informed him of what the man had said. Ali (as) said the man is right, as Allah (swt) says, “Your wealth and your children are only a temptation (Fitna)” (64:15 and 8:28), and he hates the truth meaning “death” as Allah SWT says “And the stupor of death will come in truth” (50:19), and he agrees with the Jews and Christians as Allah SWT says “And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good)” (2:113), and he believes in what he has not seen, meaning Allah SWT and he acknowledges what has not been created, meaning the hour of judgment, so then Umar said “If Ali had not been there, Umar would have been perished”.

one of the famous scholars of Ahl Sunna while speaking about the knowledge of Imam Ali (as) amongst the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) narrates the following hadith:

3 . وروى أن امرأة أتت بولد لستة أشهر من وقت النكاح في زمان عمر رضي الله عنه فهم عمر برجمها ، فقال علي رضي الله عنه لا سبيل لك عليها ، وتلا قوله تعالى : * ( وحمله وفصاله ثلاثون شهرا ) فقال عمر : لولا علي لهلك عمر .

مواقف ايجي ج 3 ص 636 ، تفسير سمعاني ج 5 ص 154.

“A woman gave birth six months after her marriage, so Umar ordered for her to be stoned to death. Ali (as) said ‘You do not have the right to do such thing’ and then He recited (and the weaning of him was thirty months;) (46:15). Then Umar said “If Ali (as) had not been there Umar would have been perished.”

After narrating this event, Kharazmi narrates the saying of Umar more intensively:

عجزت النساء أن تلدن مثل علي بن أبي طالب ، لولا علي لهلك عمر

المناقب موفق خوارزمي ص 81

Women are unable to give birth to someone like Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as), if Ali (as) had not been there, Umar would have been perished.

In other situations, the second caliph says another thing which is interesting – He seeks refuge to Allah (swt) in any matter that Ali (as) is not there to solve.

Ibn Hajar Asghalani writes:

وفي كتاب النوادر للحميدي والطبقات لمحمد بن سعد من رواية سعيد بن المسيب قال كان عمر يتعوذ بالله من معضلة ليس لها أبو الحسن يعني علي بن أبي طالب

فتح الباري ، ابن حجر ، ج 13 ، ص 286.

وقال أحمد بن زهير حدثنا أبي قال حدثنا ابن عيينة عن ابن جريح عن ابن أبي ملكية عن ابن عباس قال قال عمر على أقضانا قال أحمد ابن زهير حدثنا عبيد الله بن عمر القواريري حدثنا مؤمل بن إسماعيل حدثنا سفيان الثوري عن يحيى بن سعيد عن سعيد بن المسيب قال كان عمر يتعوذ بالله من معضلة ليس لها أبو الحسن.

استيعاب ، ابن عبدالبر ، ج 3 ، ص 1103 .

همچنين در منابعي نظير : فيض القدير ، مناوي ، ج 4 ، ص 470 ، اسدالغابة ،‌ابن اثير ، ج 4 ، ص 23 ، تهذيب التهذيب ، ابن حجر ، ج 7 ، ص 296 ، من حياة خليفة عمر بن الخطاب ، احمد البكري ، ص 320 ، نهج الايمان ، ابن جبر ، ص 147 ، ينابيع المودة ، قندوزي حنفي ،‌ج 2 ، ص 405 ، تاج العروس ،‌ج 15 ، ص497 ، تاويل مختلف الحديث ، ابن قتيبه ، ص 152 ، الفائق في غريب الحديث ، زمخشري ،‌ج 2 ،‌ص 375 ، تاريخ مدينه دمشق ، ج 25 ، ص 369 و ج 42 ، ص 406 ، تاريخ الاسلام ، ذهبي ، ج 3 ، ص 638 ، البداية و النهاية ، ابن كثير ، ج 7 ، 397 ، المناقب ، موفق خوارزمي ، ص 96 ، غريب الحديث ، ابن قتيبه ، ج 2 ، ص 293 ، النهاية في غريب الحديث ، ج 3 ، ص 254 ، لسان العرب ،‌ابن منظور ، ج 11 ص 453 .

Translated article from the website of AyatoAllah Ghazvini (ra)

http://www.valiasr-aj.com/fa/page.php?bank=question&id=2143

Edited by Pedram

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---------------------------

Obedience (to wali faqih) is more important than making a show of your love for Ali (A) and your hate towards the enemies of Ali (A).

Acting with wisdom is better than being a foolish friend.

Today If you are truly Shias - and those who love Ali (A), you are expected to refrain from such actions, because Rahber Khamini has forbidden us. Because the mujtaheedeen you follow order you to obey the Wali Faqih Rahber Khameini.

-------------------------------------------

I thought SHIA CHATS do not allow such Sins.

Where are the Mods? Is it not your duty to advice the brothers here?

You made some good points, but unfortunately you spoiled your post with the constant references to the Wali-e-faqih, and "Rahbar orders this, Rahbar orders that.". If you want to follow Sayyid Khamenei, then you should be free to do so, but don't come prancing in here telling us that allegiance to him is wajib, and not following his fatawa is tantamount to a major sin.

The Wali-e-Faqih faction really must have an outstanding propaganda machine to produce followers such as yourself. I hope you follow the Imam (ajtfs) this fervenly if his zhuhoor occurs during your lifetime ...

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Hey! Stop insulting my beloved Umar. He was a brave warrior. The only reason he ran away from battles is because it was "Allah's will."

He was looking out for the Prophet (pbuh) when he denied him the pen and paper.

If there was going to be another prophet, it would have been Umar.

Therefore, he is great.

Lmao

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Hey! Stop insulting my beloved Umar. He was a brave warrior. The only reason he ran away from battles is because it was "Allah's will."

He was looking out for the Prophet (pbuh) when he denied him the pen and paper.

If there was going to be another prophet, it would have been Umar.

Therefore, he is great.

LMAOOO !

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Hey! Stop insulting my beloved Umar. He was a brave warrior. The only reason he ran away from battles is because it was "Allah's will."

He was looking out for the Prophet when he denied him the pen and paper.

If there was going to be another prophet, it would have been Umar.

Therefore, he is great.

Is this guy serious? If Allah willed them to turn and run then why in the same hadith does it say the prophets and a few companions kept fighting? Umar lied about Allah

If he denied the pen and paper for the Prophet because he was looking out for him, then why did he give the pen and paper to Abu Bakr?

Is this guy serious?

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Is this guy serious? If Allah willed them to turn and run then why in the same hadith does it say the prophets and a few companions kept fighting? Umar lied about Allah

If he denied the pen and paper for the Prophet because he was looking out for him, then why did he give the pen and paper to Abu Bakr?

Is this guy serious?

(salam)

Rather than reading one post, read the whole thread and you will see I was being sarcastic. Of course I'm not serious.

Edited by Replicant

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