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Basra

Apostasy In Shi'a Islam Lecture By Sayyed Ammar

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Basra, apparently you are completely incapable of comprehending the fact that no matter who you want to kill, the very fact you do want to kill people for changing their mind makes you a threat in the West. Look: if a group of a 100 people settle in my town and start acting upon their laws by killing one another but leaving the natives alone, the natives will not stand by and watch, they will be perfectly justified in forcing these 100 people out of the town.

It's not that any of us (so far as I know) are actually in want of killing anybody or seeing anybody getting killed as such. That's not the point.

Macisaac, but that IS precisely the point. Whether we WANT to see it or not, we will. If Islam dominates the West, heads will roll in huge numbers according to this interpretation of this ruling. And if we agree with the Rushdie fatwa then we might as well start killing people in the west now, there are plenty people like him here and so we have a duty to kill them right here, right now - no islamic government, no Ma'sum, nothing. This IS enough to fuel Western Islamophobia. Basra can call me a clown all he wants but as far as I'm concerned if these 100 people settle in my town, start growing rapidly and tell me: "when we take over, we will start killing our people for changing their religion but don't worry as long as you don't convert to our religion, you'll be spared" I will do anything in my power to force them out, as simple as that. Especially since with the high rate of conversion, those killings might one day include my daughter or son who might convert due to marriage or simply due to getting to know only the "nice" side of the religion, as is often the case.

And please don't make people of my opinion look like some sort of hippie wimps, we are not talking about giving flowers to enemies of Islam or abandoning punishment for murder, rape, etc. we simply don't consent to someone being killed for ceasing to believe in religion, there are millions of reasons why people loose their faith completely and most of them have nothing to do with insulting or fighting religion - those people do not deserve to be murdered and standing up for them is not a sign of weakness, in fact i see it quite the opposite.

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Salam,

longtime ago, I read a hadees that when imam Mehdi ajf comes back and start killing people, many would say "if u are a son of Fatima s.a you will not kill people like this?"

this is narrated in most books related to ghayba. And I am sorry to say but there are certain punishments which momineen can Carry out. Like the one nematullah jazaeri a.r quoted in his book from imam Sadiq asws. That a momin can kill a nasibi if he is certain his life is safe from such an act, like push a wall on the nasibi etc.

In another hadees from imam Sadiq a.s: he said blood money for killing a nasibi is one sheep.

To my understanding there are certain conditions for every act in Islam and this act in discussion also has some preconditions.

However, in the book mahajjah of Hashim al Bahraini a.r he quoted a hadees about names of 313 companions of imam Mahdi ajf; in which imam Sadiq a.s said: one of the companion among 313 would kill a person for cursing imam Ali asws.

I wish i get The chance to kill an enemy of Ahlulbayth asws however I suggest to brothers in faith they should search for preconditions because during the presence of our imams asws; muawiya l.a ordered cursing of imam Ali asws and it continued for nearly 70 years. So, it's important to acquire such preconditions and order of masoomeen asws for such condition in those days and rules regarding a Muslim country; such as shia majority, Sunni majority, and/or dhimmi, and non Muslim country with Muslim minority. The true Islamic government can only be established by hujjat ajf so we having the ahadees for apostasy in today's Islamic state ruled by fallibles becomes a matter of ehtiyath for me however we should search for ahadees related to muslim majority or non Muslim majority countries and threat from governments for applying such a punishment would be very helpful indeed.

Ya Ali Madad

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For the First time i've seen the violent face of Islam (if it's all true)...trampling, setting ablaze, stoning to death etc being justified. EVEN IF SOMEONE ADMITS HIS/HER APOSTASY, IS ISLAM THAT VULNERABLE AND WEAK THAT "INDIVIDUALS" CLAIMING APOSTASY COULD BE A POTENTIAL THREAT TO A TRUE RELIGION OF BILLION AND CHANGE????? Just can't make sense of it all.

bro calmdown and try to understand that authority of a masoom is the real deen but we have around us wrong authorities(not acceptable to Allah azwj). Don't close ur eyes to reality but understand that bada mamulian zulman wa jaura where the primary zulm is against wilayat of ahlulbayth asws which is the centre, foundation, pillar of religion and stronghold of Allah azwj whoever enters it is safe in this world and in the next.

Imal Ali asws did punish people and he has right and authority to punish as he wishes. Don't u know the case when a Shia committed zinah with a married woman and was caught. Imam Ali asws asked if he knew she was married before commiting zinah. He replied: I didn't know that. To this imam asws replied: had u known that before I would have crushed ur head....Although crushing the head for zinah with a married woman was never heard of but it is imam's wish and he asws wishes what Allah azwj wishes so there is no need to raise whys, whats or how come!

Read my previous post where I mentioned preconditions required in certain cases. Eventually, Allah azwj has a specified time until then momineen are powerless. Inshallah wa ali ibne abi talib asws; let imam ajf return and judge for us the right from wrong and punish all those who went against ahlulbayth asws. So wait Allah Azwj is waiting too.

Ya Ali madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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bro calmdown and try to understand that authority of a masoom is the real deen but we have around us wrong authorities(not acceptable to Allah azwj). Don't close ur eyes to reality but understand that bada mamulian zulman wa jaura where the primary zulm is against wilayat of ahlulbayth asws which is the centre, foundation, pillar of religion and stronghold of Allah azwj whoever enters it is safe in this world and in the next.

Imal Ali asws did punish people and he has right and authority to punish as he wishes. Don't u know the case when a Shia committed zinah with a married woman and was caught. Imam Ali asws asked if he knew she was married before commiting zinah. He replied: I didn't know that. To this imam asws replied: had u known that before I would have crushed ur head....Although crushing the head for zinah with a married woman was never heard of but it is imam's wish and he asws wishes what Allah azwj wishes so there is no need to raise whys, whats or how come!

Read my previous post where I mentioned preconditions required in certain cases. Eventually, Allah azwj has a specified time until then momineen are powerless. Inshallah wa ali ibne abi talib asws; let imam ajf return and judge for us the right from wrong and punish all those who went against ahlulbayth asws. So wait Allah Azwj is waiting too.

Ya Ali madad

Thank you brother for taking your time to explain to me. My point here is that, If one is a Muslim, who is he accepting? you, me, some mullah, some historian or Allah????? and if he goes against Allah and commits apostasy, who is he against? me, you, historians, mullahs etc, or Allah?

we all worship HIM and to HIM we report at the end. If we accept His religion, we're accepting his blessings, if we don't, if we're accepting the chastisement from HIM. How sure can we be that we wont be a murderer if we follow a za'eef hadith???...( za'eef because its not explicitly backed up by Qur'an). Taking someone's life is an extremely serious issue, and when we believe that Qur'an is a complete book, don't you think its imperative to have such rulings mentioned within it.

I understand the need for an Imam to carry out such rulings, cause they know it waayyyyy better than we can even imagine, but fatwa's are being issued now by regular people.

More importantly, imams shouldn't even be mentioned in our topic here, because Qur'an was written and revealed for us, we are the ones in need of guidance, the imams were already guided. even though the rules of Allah applies to all, but logically Qur'an main target was/is us regular people. And if Qur'an wants us to carry out such things, it would've been EXPLICITLY mentioned to kill them.......then comes the inhumane acts of trampling, burning etc. etc.

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Thank you brother for taking your time to explain to me. My point here is that, If one is a Muslim, who is he accepting? you, me, some mullah, some historian or Allah????? and if he goes against Allah and commits apostasy, who is he against? me, you, historians, mullahs etc, or Allah?

we all worship HIM and to HIM we report at the end. If we accept His religion, we're accepting his blessings, if we don't, if we're accepting the chastisement from HIM. How sure can we be that we wont be a murderer if we follow a za'eef hadith???...( za'eef because its not explicitly backed up by Qur'an). Taking someone's life is an extremely serious issue, and when we believe that Qur'an is a complete book, don't you think its imperative to have such rulings mentioned within it.

I understand the need for an Imam to carry out such rulings, cause they know it waayyyyy better than we can even imagine, but fatwa's are being issued now by regular people.

More importantly, imams shouldn't even be mentioned in our topic here, because Qur'an was written and revealed for us, we are the ones in need of guidance, the imams were already guided. even though the rules of Allah applies to all, but logically Qur'an main target was/is us regular people. And if Qur'an wants us to carry out such things, it would've been EXPLICITLY mentioned to kill them.......then comes the inhumane acts of trampling, burning etc. etc.

Sorry to say but Quran explicitly says to do jihad but we can't without permission from hujjah, wujoob of Jumma, eidain salat, khums, etc.

There are many such quranic orders which are temporarily suspended due to ghayba and if we are to act on them then it means the imam ajf doesn't matter to us and we are like the Sunnis who don't have an imam.

And I am sorry again; I ldomt know why burning is inhumane to u.

Don't u know the story where a Shia commited sodomy and presented himself voluntarily to moula Ali asws and said he wants to be purified so that he won't be punished in the hereafter. Imam a.s said: how do u wish to die. He chose the most difficult death which was by fire.

All munafiqs gathered to see how a lover of ali a.s be burnt because they wanted to wrongness of a hadees of rasool Allah saww that Fire won't burn a lover of Ali a.s

the fire was set; he sought forgiveness from Allah swt and was then pushed in the fire. Miraculously, the fire didn't burn him.

People inquired why: Ali a.s said; don't u know that if someone seeks forgiveness in the presence of wali Allah; he is forgiven.

But that's sodomy and this is apostacy so don't deny ahadees and expel urself from wilayath. Rather understand that it is the wish of wali Allah and he punishes however he wants to.

Ya Ali Madad

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Basra, apparently you are completely incapable of comprehending the fact that no matter who you want to kill, the very fact you do want to kill people for changing their mind makes you a threat in the West. Look: if a group of a 100 people settle in my town and start acting upon their laws by killing one another but leaving the natives alone, the natives will not stand by and watch, they will be perfectly justified in forcing these 100 people out of the town.

Macisaac, but that IS precisely the point. Whether we WANT to see it or not, we will. If Islam dominates the West, heads will roll in huge numbers according to this interpretation of this ruling. And if we agree with the Rushdie fatwa then we might as well start killing people in the west now, there are plenty people like him here and so we have a duty to kill them right here, right now - no islamic government, no Ma'sum, nothing. This IS enough to fuel Western Islamophobia. Basra can call me a clown all he wants but as far as I'm concerned if these 100 people settle in my town, start growing rapidly and tell me: "when we take over, we will start killing our people for changing their religion but don't worry as long as you don't convert to our religion, you'll be spared" I will do anything in my power to force them out, as simple as that. Especially since with the high rate of conversion, those killings might one day include my daughter or son who might convert due to marriage or simply due to getting to know only the "nice" side of the religion, as is often the case.

And please don't make people of my opinion look like some sort of hippie wimps, we are not talking about giving flowers to enemies of Islam or abandoning punishment for murder, rape, etc. we simply don't consent to someone being killed for ceasing to believe in religion, there are millions of reasons why people loose their faith completely and most of them have nothing to do with insulting or fighting religion - those people do not deserve to be murdered and standing up for them is not a sign of weakness, in fact i see it quite the opposite.

Again you don't say anything about the simple fact that racist Islamophobes aren't gonna convert to Islam in the first place (even if Amerikkka hypothetically became an Islamic state). So the idea of them complaining about the legal punishment for the crime of apostasy is bunk to begin with. Also you loving talk about how the West (which in the case of the US Empire still has the death penalty on the books themselves) will be "shocked" by these lies; yet the West sees no problems in allowing all manners of wicked actions such as say allowing evil homosexuality that creates AIDS and other STDs; and all other manners of filth. Yet all you do is whine about the punishment of execution for the crime of apostasy, and how this allegedly excuses the racist Islamophobia of mostly racist redneck white hecks that would never convert to Islam in the first place.

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Basra read my posts again, I told you twice precisely why Westerners have the right to be scared regardless of whether they themselves will convert or not. Besides, if you think fear of Islam is limited to some racist rednecks you are seriously deluded. Do you even live in the West? I seriously doubt so. Muslims in the West give enough reasons to normal people not just some rednecks to be scared of Islam and now on top of things you come along and openly say you want to start killing in their neighbourhoods, towns and cities. Oh, but you will only kill apostate Muslims, that makes it OK for them, I'm sure they won't mind. I'm sure when they walk pass a few ex-Muslim corpses in their neighbourhood they will just take it as yet another aspect of multiculturalism.

if a group of a 100 people settle in my town and start acting upon their laws by killing one another but leaving the natives alone, the natives will not stand by and watch, they will be perfectly justified in forcing these 100 people out of the town
if these 100 people settle in my town, start growing rapidly and tell me: "when we take over, we will start killing our people for changing their religion but don't worry as long as you don't convert to our religion, you'll be spared" I will do anything in my power to force them out, as simple as that. Especially since with the high rate of conversion, those killings might one day include my daughter or son who might convert due to marriage or simply due to getting to know only the "nice" side of the religion, as is often the case.

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Basra read my posts again, I told you twice precisely why Westerners have the right to be scared regardless of whether they themselves will convert or not. Besides, if you think fear of Islam is limited to some racist rednecks you are seriously deluded. Do you even live in the West? I seriously doubt so. Muslims in the West give enough reasons to normal people not just some rednecks to be scared of Islam and now on top of things you come along and openly say you want to start killing in their neighbourhoods, towns and cities. Oh, but you will only kill apostate Muslims, that makes it OK for them, I'm sure they won't mind. I'm sure when they walk pass a few ex-Muslim corpses in their neighbourhood they will just take it as yet another aspect of multiculturalism.

Your such a fool, the fact you yourself are a racist white supremacist is given away in your statement: "they will just take it as yet another aspect of multiculturalism". So we see your an enemy of "multiculturalism", I assume you celebrate the genocide of 100 million Native Americans and the Atlantic slave trade started by the white Christian Sir John Hawkins that killed 60 million Africans and built the interest base of the Amerikkkan "economy" till this very day!

0195085574.jpg

If you have a problem with Islamic law, that's between you and Allah(SWT). If you want to join racist Islamophobes go ahead and do what you will and burn in the hereafter. Yet I see you have no problem with the West (Europe) locking up people in dungeons and destroying their personal and professional lives for daring to question even the smallest issue of claims about Nazi German alleged crimes in WWII http://www.codoh.com/ or again how about homosexuality and the spread of AIDs I find this offensive and threatening (look at all the deaths yearly in the US from AIDs created and spread by homosexuals, drug users, and fornicators) yet no Amerikkkan or Western politician talks about stopping this criminal threat!

Using your silly analogy, I must voice my disgust at Amerikkka (aka stolen Native American land) allowing people to drink the evil of alcohol which yearly just from drunk driving deaths kills 17,000 people in the United States of Amerikkka! Sure you could argue, "oh well the US has laws against drunk driving", but the simple fact remains the very act of drinking alcohol is somehow still legal in the US/Europe and once someone can drink they have the "right" to get drunk drive their car and kill people and this happens tens of thousands of times yearly in the US. Yet your problem is not with any of them (as you likely won't call for banning alcohol), but your issue is based on a law for treason in an Islamic state that (even if Amerikkka hypothetically became an Islamic state, which insha Allah it will) would not even affect a kaafir that does not convert to Islam in the first place (which again I don't think anybody sees white racist Islamophobe hicks doing to begin with). Oh yeah and even if some redneck hick did convert all they would have to do to escape the death penalty in an Islamic state for the crime of apostasy would be to not reveal their criminal apostasy/treason of leaving Islam (another out for them, on top of the fact racist white supremacist hicks wouldn't likely want to convert to Islam in the first place destroying your whole argument). Your a racist Islamophobe, Allah(SWT) will punish you.

Edited by Basra

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A local aalim explained about apostasy in Islam. He said the death penalty is intended for those who openly leave Islam and then stir up dissension amongst people. But if someone changes their religion and isn't vocal about it, that person doesn't deserve to be killed.

I would like to ask everyone to read Bro. Ya Baqiyatullah's post once again. He sums it up very nicely: rules have conditions and you won't find them in a single hadith. People in this thread are wont to quoting hadith willy nilly without understanding the context and its conditions and ignoring conflicting hadith on the subject. If deriving Islam laws were so easy, we wouldn't need for scholars to spend decades studying the science of hadith. Every Tom, Richard, and Harry could open up Wasail as-Shia or al-Kafi and become their own mujtahid.

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A local aalim explained about apostasy in Islam. He said the death penalty is intended for those who openly leave Islam and then stir up dissension amongst people. But if someone changes their religion and isn't vocal about it, that person doesn't deserve to be killed.

Typical apologist response.

If deriving Islam laws were so easy, we wouldn't need for scholars to spend decades studying the science of hadith.

I'll tell you a secret................we really don't.

Every Tom, Richard, and Harry could open up Wasail as-Shia or al-Kafi and become their own mujtahid.

True, that's why they strongly oppose translating these books and those like us who learnt Arabic so as to read these books are told we shouldn't do so without referring to 'scholars'(so that they don't lose their jobs). Pretty similar to the ways the bohris, nusayris, alevi authorities keep their masses in check.

Perhaps the authors of these books(wasail, kafi etc) made a mistake by writing them and compiling the ahadith in an easy to find manner and giving their explanations as well in case of difficult/strange ahadith and not at all imposing a pre condition that these books are only for scholars. In fact, Shaikh Sadooq should perhaps have been shot for writing man la yahdhuruhul faqih.

I would like to ask everyone to read Bro. Ya Baqiyatullah's post once again. He sums it up very nicely

We did and refuted it with ahadith.

rules have conditions and you won't find them in a single hadith. People in this thread are wont to quoting hadith willy nilly without understanding the context and its conditions and ignoring conflicting hadith on the subject.

If you believe there are some ahadith which contradict the ahadith we posted and we've missed them, then please post them here so we can check them.

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Can anyone provide a reasonable rationale for this ruling? I think it is fair to say that we all agree that you cannot coerce someone to believe and even if you could that would be worthless belief. If the purpose is not to effect what people believe then what purpose does it serve?

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Can anyone provide a reasonable rationale for this ruling? I think it is fair to say that we all agree that you cannot coerce someone to believe and even if you could that would be worthless belief. If the purpose is not to effect what people believe then what purpose does it serve?

There you go:

Rationale behind apostasy and other Islamic rulings

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Bro bhooka bheriya Salam,

can we reconcile those many ahadees(one such is mentioned in ehtejaaj tabarsi) where it is stated that: Jumma, jihad and hudood are suspended. I know this issue does say "any Muslim" but some ahadees on apostasy mentioned in this thread also mention "it is up to the imam". Most akhbari ulema that I know today infer it to be imam e adil.

Ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Bro bhooka bheriya Salam,

can we reconcile those many ahadees(one such is mentioned in ehtejaaj tabarsi) where it is stated that: Jumma, jihad and hudood are suspended. I know this issue does say "any Muslim" but some ahadees on apostasy mentioned in this thread also mention "it is up to the imam". Most akhbari ulema that I know today infer it to be imam e adil.

Ya Ali Madad

Can you bring me this hadeeth. You do know iHtijaaj by Al-Tabarasee is a book that it's chains have been truncated, right? So by hadeeth science, they are weak. While we have hadeeth that are saheeh that talk about only a handful of punishments being suspended until Al-Qaa'im (as) comes.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Can you bring me this hadeeth. You do know iHtijaaj by Al-Tabarasee is a book that it's chains have been truncated, right? So by hadeeth science, they are weak. While we have hadeeth that are saheeh that talk about only a handful of punishments being suspended until Al-Qaa'im (as) comes.

(salam)

for jummah, hukaam, hudood

1. Mustadrak al wasail vol 6 page 13 and 14 chapter jummah

2. Bihar ul anwaar vol 86 pg 255 and 256

for jummah

man la yazher ul faqih chapter jummah hadees 1 print error maybe "farsakhs from jumma instead of farsakhs from imam e adil check for same hadees in al khisaal khasalath 5 or 7 where it mentions it's not wajib on 5(women, child....and one who is 2farsakhs away from imam e adil

alternatively check daim ul Islam vol 1 page 180-182 for jummah, hukaam and hudoood

ya Ali Madad

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(salam)

(bismillah)

for jummah, hukaam, hudood

1. Mustadrak al wasail vol 6 page 13 and 14 chapter jummah

2. Bihar ul anwaar vol 86 pg 255 and 256

for jummah

man la yazher ul faqih chapter jummah hadees 1 print error maybe "farsakhs from jumma instead of farsakhs from imam e adil check for same hadees in al khisaal khasalath 5 or 7 where it mentions it's not wajib on 5(women, child....and one who is 2farsakhs away from imam e adil

alternatively check daim ul Islam vol 1 page 180-182 for jummah, hukaam and hudoood

Brother, can you please PM the arabic of those hadeeth? or give me a more specific reference. I don't want to stray the topic, and I want the topic to be about only apostasy in islaam.

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Brother, can you please PM the arabic of those hadeeth? or give me a more specific reference. I don't want to stray the topic, and I want the topic to be about only apostasy in islaam.

(salam)

but Nader, do you speak arabic? just looking at some of your work, have you even studied Nahw and Sarf? If you have not, so how are you assesing the text?

Edited by Slave of Abbas

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alsalam alaikum

Even if the apostasy issue is resolved we have not resolved the big problem

apostasy is relatively rare and we are not often tested with it but there is some thing we have in the hadeeths which is worse i.e. the laws of ahlul thimma

i read in minhaj alsaleheen for khooie

al khooie saying that with the non ahlulkitab you have to force them to become muslims or fight war with them !!!!!

of course khooie is relying on hadeeths and mainly on isnaad just like the sunnies do.

now this is in direct conflict with quranic verse that says :

god does not forbid you from those who do not fight you in your religion and kick you out of your lands to be good to them

This Fatwa brings many problems.

we know that god is merciful and he has the ultimate judgment

having the ultimate judgment means he gives you all the chances in the world before he punishes you

if he instantly puts you to death then his HUJJA will not be BALIGHA as he states in the quraan

و لله الحجه البالغه

God has the ultimate excuse (to judge you)

when you look at other laws in islam like the one for adultry you see that its consistent with this because of the close to impossible conditions that Allah put that make it hard to convict and hence impose the harsh punishment , this is consistent with gods mercy and will mean that on the ground most adulterers wont get the stoning.

another issue is the impracticality of the law. imagine India and china which are half of the worlds population. imagine you tell them our fatwa about them that we must force them to Islam or kill them?

I think their response will be that each of them will spit one spit on us and its enough for all of us to drawn and die...

does god set up such impractical law?

does god give the non muslims the justification to fight us and hate us?

does god make our enemies stand in a moral high ground and look down at us?

secondly lets say they listened and became Muslims but in their hearts they still worship the cow or whatever , what has been achieved?

we have created billions of hypocrites didnt we?

is that what god wants ?

gods religion is truth therefore it wouldn't contradict itself.

we have to realize that we have many hadeeths which are doubtful and isnaad alone can not guide us to what is genuine and what is a fabrication and a lie upon the holy religions.

we have hadeeths with string isnaad contradicting another one with the same strength of isnaad which is a proof that isnaad alone is not enough to distinguish truth from falsehood and that the contents are also very important to be scrutinized and put against a scale

I give another example is khooie saying that marriage to kurdish men is discouraged !!!! obviously I don't think the man is racist himself but he is relying on hadeeths which directly contradict the quraan's message about racism. This is a proof that he only looked at isnaad and ignored the content because gods religion doesn't contradict itself. the quraan saying: " we made you nations and tribes so that you get to know each other , the best amongst you in the eyes of god is the most pious ones amongst you"

Edited by alimohamad40

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Sorry to say but Quran explicitly says to do jihad but we can't without permission from hujjah, wujoob of Jumma, eidain salat, khums, etc.

There are many such quranic orders which are temporarily suspended due to ghayba and if we are to act on them then it means the imam ajf doesn't matter to us and we are like the Sunnis who don't have an imam.

And I am sorry again; I ldomt know why burning is inhumane to u.

OK now looks like we have no basis for argument since according to you:

1) Jihad means killing handful of misguided people (apostates)

2) Burning people as punishment is humanly sane and appropriate for mankind.

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(wasalam)

You mean the sunnis? No they're muslims but definitely not momin. I'd posted this in another thread.

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÇáÍßã¡ Úä ÓÝíÇä Èä ÇáÓãØ ÞÇá: ÓÃá ÑÌá ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) Úä ÇáÇÓáÇã æÇáÇíãÇä¡ ãÇÇáÝÑÞ ÈíäåãÇ¡ Ýáã íÌÈå Ëã ÓÃáå Ýáã íÌÈå Ëã ÇáÊÞíÇ Ýí ÇáØÑíÞ æÞÏ ÃÒÝ ãä ÇáÑÌá ÇáÑÍíá¡ ÝÞÇá áå ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ßÃäå ÞÏ ÃÒÝ ãäß ÑÍíá¿ ÝÞÇá: äÚã ÝÞÇá: ÝÇáÞäí Ýí ÇáÈíÊ¡ ÝáÞíå ÝÓÃáå Úä ÇáÇÓáÇã æÇáÇíãÇä ãÇ ÇáÝÑÞ ÈíäåãÇ¡ ÝÞÇá: ÇáÇÓáÇã åæ ÇáÙÇåÑ ÇáÐí Úáíå ÇáäÇÓ: ÔåÇÏÉ Ãä áÇÅáå ÅáÇ Çááå æÍÏå áÇ ÔÑíß áå æÃä ãÍãÏÇ ÚÈÏå æÑÓæáå æÅÞÇã ÇáÕáÇÉ æÅíÊÇÁ ÇáÒßÇÉ æÍÌ ÇáÈíÊ æÕíÇã ÔåÑ ÑãÖÇä ÝåÐÇ ÇáÇÓáÇã¡ æÞÇá: ÇáÇíãÇä ãÚÑÝÉåÐÇ ÇáÇãÑ ãÚ åÐÇ ÝÇä ÃÞÑÈåÇ æáã íÚÑÝ åÐÇ ÇáÇãÑ ßÇä ãÓáãÇ æßÇä ÖÇáÇ

.........................................Imam(AS) said "Islam is the apparent condition upon which are the common people, (that is) saying shahada of Allah(SWT) and Prophet(PBUH), saying prayer(salat), giving zakat, going for hajj and fasting in ramadhan. This is Islam. As for Iman, that includes recognition of amr(of imamah), whoever doesn't recognize it is a deviant muslim.

Some time back when I used to be his muqallid I remember reading on his website's Urdu section regarding apostate's punishment being death that it's only up to the hakim al sharia to determine that someone's become apostate. As in as far as I remember he didn't exactly answer the question, which is understandable since foolish people may take laws into their own hands. I'm sure he would have the same views about apostasy (as mentioned in this thread). You may find this helpful, though.

Ayatullah Jawad Lankarani (Late Ayatullah Fazel Lankarani's son)

Question 1: Why should an apostate be killed? How is this consistent with the Quranic verse which says, "There is no compulsion in religion"? Isn't a person free in choosing his religion?

Answer 1: If an apostate expresses his apostasy, he will be sentenced to death. In case, he does not express or announce it openly, he will not get such a punishment. In fact, by expressing his apostasy, the apostate has waged a war against the religion, God and His prophet. He should therefore be killed. We believe the religion of Islam is based on logic, wisdom and rationality. There is no way one can use his sound intellect yet he denies the religion of Islam which is the most perfect and comprehensive of divine religions. It incorporates all pre-revealed divine religions with more perfect laws and codes of practice. Moreover, freedom does not mean going against such a religion whose aim is to bring prosperity for humanity. Perhaps, an apostate, by his act, may cause others to deviate from the right path. For this reason, he should be killed. Finally, an apostate is like a fierce and ferocious animal that has to be annihilated. In addition, you should understand that the very law will have its impact on the people who may, out of their carnal desires, want to stand against this divine religion.

http://www.j-fazel.org/eng/qus/01.php#01

Assalamu Alaykum

Thank you for this citation, which shows that it is important how we define apostasy. It dismays me when I see people like Richard Dawkins, when debating muslims on television, deploring the barbarism of the death penalty for those who have chosen to become 'freethinkers' like him. "Leaving Islam" seems to me a weak definition for apostasy and it must include the antithesis of the shahadah or (false) testimony contradicting the oneness of Allah or the prophethood of Mohammed (pbuh). It is only when one understands the dangers of fabricated evidence that one understands why such severe punishments for it exist.

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OK now looks like we have no basis for argument since according to you:

1) Jihad means killing handful of misguided people (apostates)

2) Burning people as punishment is humanly sane and appropriate for mankind.

I didn't say that every tom dich harry can burn apostates. It can be Allah or daleel Allah who does it however u shouldn't think it to be inhuman. It's Allah aWj's wish, he is the owner.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Laws punishment are for the benefit of the community. Intellect dictates. That larger benefit is priority to smaller benefits. Of course if there is an Islamic state. As example a thief must be published under Islamic state so the whole community becomes safe. Or a rapest. I thought about this law when learning about these issues of of no compulsion. In religion as when one dose evil God leaves them in doing evil unless they turn back. So the punishment laws must be foe the benefit of all the community

Edited by Maitham

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Laws punishment are for the benefit of the community. Intellect dictates. That larger benefit is priority to smaller benefits. Of course if there is an Islamic state. As example a thief must be published under Islamic state so the whole community becomes safe. Or a rapest. I thought about this law when learning about these issues of of no compulsion. In religion as when one dose evil God leaves them in doing evil unless they turn back. So the punishment laws must be foe the benefit of all the community

 

Believe me. I read Qur'an and Qur'an is against death penalty for apostates.

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Why?

 

Refer to Q. 5:32. According to it, only two types of people can be killed i.e. murder and insurgent. Thus, if an apostate's neither a murderer nor an insurgent then we can't kill him. Moreover, Qur'an nowhere commands Muslims to kill an apostate. Some hadiths say that an apostate should be killed while some say not.

 

Islam allows freedom of religion. Q. 2:256 allows freedom of religion. 

 

Muhammad Husain Tabatabaei, Ibn Kathir and Al Tabari collectively believe that Q. 2:256 was revealed about the Helpers in Medina.

Ibn Abbas says:

 

'When the children of a woman (in pre-Islamic days) did not survive, she took a vow on herself that if her child survives, she would convert it a Jew. When a Jew tribe was expelled (from Arabia), there were some children of the Helpers among them. They said, 'we shall not leave our children.' So God revealed, 'let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error'.'

Kamal Faghih Imani, Muhammad Husain Tabatabaei and Al Tabari copy in their interpretations:

'This verse (Q. 2:256) was revealed about a man from the Helpers. He had two sons who were Christians. And he was a Muslim himself. He said to the Prophet, 'wouldn't you force them (to convert to Islam) for they have converted to Christianity?' So God revealed the verse.' (Tafsir al Tabari, hadith #4688)

 

Source: http://humanrightsquran.blogspot.com/

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Yusuf Ali: Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.


Quran 4:137
Edited by Iskandarovich

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On 9/11/2013 at 1:50 AM, Modest Muslim said:

 

Believe me. I read Qur'an and Qur'an is against death penalty for apostates.

Ironic that you have the picture of Ayatullah Sistani as your profile pic and he says this about apostates:

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0279/

السؤال: ما هو تعريفكم للمرتد بالتفصيل ؟ الجواب: المرتد وهو من خرج عن الاِسلام واختار الكفر على قسمين: فطري وملّي، والفطري من ولد على اسلام احد ابويه أو كليها ثم كفر، وفي اعتبار اسلامه بعد التمييز قبل الكفر وجهان اقربهما الاعتبار. وحكم الفطري انه يقتل في الحال، وتبين منه زوجته بمجرد ارتداده وينفسخ نكاحها بغير طلاق، وتعتد عدة الوفاة ـ على ما تقدم ـ ثم تتزوج ان شاءت، وتُقسّم امواله التي كانت له حين ارتداده بين ورثته بعد اداء ديونه كالميت ولا ينتظر موته، ولا تفيد توبته ورجوعه الى الاسلام في سقوط الاحكام المذكورة مطلقاً على المشهور، ولكنه لا يخلو عن شوب اشكال، نعم لا اشكال في عدم وجوب استتابته. وأما بالنسبة الى ما عدا الاحكام الثلاثة المذكورات فالاقوى قبول توبته باطناً وظاهراً، فيطهر بدنه وتصح عباداته ويجوز تزويجه من المسلمة، بل له تجديد العقد على زوجته السابقة حتى قبل خروجها من العدة على القول ببينونتها عنه بمجرد الارتداد، والظاهر انه يملك الاموال الجديدة باسبابه الاختيارية كالنجارة والحيازة والقهرية كالارث ولو قبل توبته. واما المرتد الملّي ـ وهو من يقابل الفطري ـ فحكمه انه يستتاب، فان تاب وإلاّ قتل، وانفسخ نكاح زوجته إذا كان الارتداد قبل الدخول أو كانت يائسة أو صغيرة ولم تكن عليها عدة، وأما إذا كان الارتداد بعد الدخول وكانت المرأة في سن من تحيض وجب عليها ان تعتد عدة الطلاق من حين الارتداد، فان رجع عن ارتداده الى الاسلام قبل انقضاء العدة بقي الزواج على حاله على الاقرب وإلاّ انكشف انها قد بانت عنه عند الارتداد. ولا تقسم أموال المرتد الملي إلاّ بعد موته بالقتل أو غيره، وإذا تاب ثم ارتد ففي وجوب قتله من دون استتابة في الثالثة أو الرابعة اشكال. هذا إذا كان المرتد رجلاً، واما لو كان امرأة فلا تقتل ولا تنتقل اموالها عنها الى الورثة إلاّ بالموت، وينفسخ نكاحها بمجرد الارتداد بدون اعتداد مع عدم الدخول أو كونها صغيرة أو يائسة وإلاّ توقف الانفساخ على انقضاء العدة وهي بمقدار عدة الطلاق كما مر في المسألة (٥٦٣). وتحبس المرتدة ويضيّق عليها وتضرب على الصلاة حتى تتوب فان تابت قبلت توبتها، ولا فرق في ذلك بين أن تكون مرتدة عن ملة أو عن فطرة.

[Disclaimer: translation below was provided by an anonymous person on a different forum. Feel free to suggest corrections if any.]

Question: What is your detailed definition of apostasy?

Answer: The apostate is the one who has left islam and chosen disbelief, and their are two categories of apostastes: Fitri and Milli. A Fitri is the one who was born into islam, and either one or both of his parents are muslim, then he apostasized. This is under the assumption that he is any of level of religiosity, bar complete disbelief in islam. The ruling on the Fitri is death immediately. His marriage with his wife is instantly made void, without need for a divorce, and continues until his death. Afterwards, she may marry as she pleases. His money/finances that he owned during his time of apostasy are divided between his heirs, but only after his financial debts are payed. This is done whilst he is alive, as if he had died. His repentance and return to islam does not revoke the ruling against him in any case. However, he can repent. (a few lines underneath I couldn't really understand, sorry)

As for the Milli, His ruling is that he repents. He either repents, or is killed. His marriage to his wife is made void if he apostastized before consummation, or if she is upset with the marriage, or if she is small and Iddah doesnt apply to her (meaning virgin again)If he apostatized after consummation, or the wife has reached the age of menstruation then she must go through Iddah of divorce (3 month waiting period) and if he repents and returns to islam before the 3 months of Iddah are up, the marriage is resumed as normal, unless she wanted to be irrevocably divorced whilst he was still an apostate. The finances of the Milli apostate are not divided whilst he is still alive, only after his death (compared to the Fitri, where it is done whilst alive). If he apostatizes a second time, it is then obligatory to kill him, with his repentance unable to revoke the ruling. 

In the case, of the apostate being a woman, she is not to be killed, and her money not removed from her unless she dies. Her marriage is void just by the fact she apostatises, regardless if they had consummated or she is small, or she is upset/doesnt want husband. It may be resumed if she repents during the Iddah (3 month period). She is to be imprisoned in a narrow space, and hit, to make her pray, until she repents. Her repentance is accepted. There is not difference in this ruling whether she is a Milli or a Fitri.

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