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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do We Sunnis Hate Imam Ali?

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(salam)

Why do we sunnis hate imam ali?

Who said we hate Maula Ali (ra)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Maybe hate is too strong a word but certainly, when it comes to praise/recollection of sahaba, the first two caliphs get far more coverage in sunni gatherings than Imam Ali (as).

I guess the reasons are numerous; Shia are explicitly tied to Maula Ali (as) , maybe some 'distance' (mazhaAllah) from the blessed Imam (as) could be to distance from shia? During Hazrat Ali's (as) time as caliph there were numerous civil wars, focusing on the personage would raise too many questions amongst enquiring minds as to the why's and wherefores?

Whatever the reason, it's sad and perverse; imagine if Muslims had given Imam Ali (as) the rightful status and credit? Differences wouldn't have vanished but the bond would have been much stronger.

Allah Hafiz

ALI

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I think this ^ Shai brother/sister has more knowledge about Sunni belief of Maula Ali (ra) rather then the Sunni bro/sis that started this thread., Most thing that Dead-man wrote I agree with , they sum it up...but I think that some do disrespect him (ra) because of Shia's view on him, Which by the way is completely WRONG...let Shia love Maula Ali (ra) the way they do, but dont degrade his status bcuz of that

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Assalamalaykum.. We(SUNNIS) Have Great Regards & Love Towards Imam Ali(A.S) & Ahl-e-Bayt(A.S) Ofcourse We Take Lessons & Follow Them. Imam Ali(A.S) Is D Commander Of Faithful and Father Of Sufism Of Islam. Moreover Imam Ali(A.S) Is The GREATEST SIGN of our Nabi-Huzoor Rasool(S.A.W) Miraculous Powers.

Ghareebon Da Zamane Vich Sahara Hai ALI(A.S) Maula

MUHAMMAD(S.A.W) Jiss Da Maula Us Da Maula Hai ALI(A.S) Maula

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well you guys also say imam hanifa or imam malik.....

well the matter is very simple and straightforward.the op here is caught red-handed pretending to be a sunni while forgetting completely that sunnis never say imam ali and only shias do.u have urself verified this by quoting that we say imam hanifa etc but not imam ali.

now coming to ur invalid objection.we dont say imam ali but imam hanifa fine.but does that really matter?we dont say imam ali just as we dont say imam umar/imam abubakar/imam usman or imam(any other sahabi ra)for tht matter.u could have objected if we had said imam abubakar etc but not imam ali.infact we include ali(ra) in khulfa rashdin which is a high title for us and we praise ali(ra) in this manner.

moreover we say imam hanifa etc just as u say imam khomeni/imam kulaini etc.

i hope i am clear enoug!

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However Sunni's do have a Strange relationship with Ali (as), for Example as they Praise Him, they also Praise his Enemies who tried to kill him or waged War against him at the same time "Muawiyah" and co.. and they give excuses to those who waged war against him during his Caliphete and having a hard time condeming those who they consider to be "Pious

resaon for that is that sunnis have the concept that all sahaba are reliable when it comes to hadith now if they discredit one that opens the flood gates for criticism for ALL of them.How can sunnis consider Aisha unreliable when she narrates thousands of ahadith ? issue of muaiwyah is a minor one, his "defence" is more a defence of the concept of sahabi than out of any personal loyalty to mjaiwyah.That being said the rehablitation of ALi as the fourth RAshidun caliph in sunni madhab is a great contribution of sunni Imams which 12ers frequently overlook.Remember for centuries Ali was a Pariah amongst the majoprity of muslims but it was the sahaba and Tabaeen ( the teachers of the sunni Imams) who narrated his merits so much that later generation of sunni scholars were forced to include him as the fourth pious caliph while the ummayyads werre effectively EXCLUDED from the rashidun list despite their propoganda that they ( and not Ali) were the successors of Uthman.Overall sunni compromise position is heavily pro-Alid and luke warm to Ummayyads at best.

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resaon for that is that sunnis have the concept that all sahaba are reliable when it comes to hadith now if they discredit one that opens the flood gates for criticism for ALL of them.How can sunnis consider Aisha unreliable when she narrates thousands of ahadith ? issue of muaiwyah is a minor one, his "defence" is more a defence of the concept of sahabi than out of any personal loyalty to mjaiwyah.That being said the rehablitation of ALi as the fourth RAshidun caliph in sunni madhab is a great contribution of sunni Imams which 12ers frequently overlook.Remember for centuries Ali was a Pariah amongst the majoprity of muslims but it was the sahaba and Tabaeen ( the teachers of the sunni Imams) who narrated his merits so much that later generation of sunni scholars were forced to include him as the fourth pious caliph while the ummayyads werre effectively EXCLUDED from the rashidun list despite their propoganda that they ( and not Ali) were the successors of Uthman.Overall sunni compromise position is heavily pro-Alid and luke warm to Ummayyads at best.

Salaam

Ahsant brother! You made a brilliant point in pointing out that this idea of "Fourth rightly guided Caliph" is an idea introduced much later in the sunni school of thought.

Its even evident in Sahih Muslim that Muawiya curses Ali ibn abu Talib(as). This continued for 60 years, every friday prayer, the Khutbas would start with "May Allah Curse Ali ibn abu Talib". The Umayyid's obviously had a very deep hatred for Imam Ali(as) as a result of the victories he brought to the religion of Islam. As RasoolAllah(sawa) says: "Islam did not rise except through Ali's sword and Khadijas wealth".

Furthermore, the hatred harbored towards Ali(as) and his victories are even evident after Imam Hussain(as)'s martyrdom. When in Shaam, just before the Khutba of Bibi Zainab(as), Yazid(LA) states "If only my ancestors at Badr could witness how Khazraj went into panic they would have been very happy after which they would have said "May you never become Paralyzed O Yazid." We have killed the leaders of their Masters, and equaled it to Badr, surely Hashim has played with the kingdom." I dont know how more evident the hatred towards Imam Ali(as) could be that those Umayyids that he defeated in Badr would pass on such hateful feelings of Ameer Al Mu'mineen onto Muawiya and later onto Yazid. Im sure Yazid passed it onto Muawiya the 2nd and so on until the time of Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq. When Bani Umayya was overthrown by the Abbasids. Which, ironically, is also about the time of the emergence of Abu Hanifa and Malik ibn Enes (Students of our 6th imams as mentioned).

Thus one can clearly see, that idea of 4th rightly guided caliph came much later after the martyrdom of Imam Ali(as). Whereas if this were true, there wouldnt have been 3 civil wars during Imam Ali(as)'s reign which later went on to him being cursed for 60 years from the mimbar.

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well the matter is very simple and straightforward.the op here is caught red-handed pretending to be a sunni while forgetting completely that sunnis never say imam ali and only shias do.u have urself verified this by quoting that we say imam hanifa etc but not imam ali.

now coming to ur invalid objection.we dont say imam ali but imam hanifa fine.but does that really matter?we dont say imam ali just as we dont say imam umar/imam abubakar/imam usman or imam(any other sahabi ra)for tht matter.u could have objected if we had said imam abubakar etc but not imam ali.infact we include ali(ra) in khulfa rashdin which is a high title for us and we praise ali(ra) in this manner.

moreover we say imam hanifa etc just as u say imam khomeni/imam kulaini etc.

i hope i am clear enoug!

That's not true. Hamz Yusuf even refers to Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) as Imam Ali...

Anyway, whether you call him an imam or not, according to Ahlus-Sunnah he was still an Imam at one point in his life. When he was rhe 4th Caliph, remember? Then again, I don't know how you can say he was 'Rightly guided'... Obviously, Muawiyah, Aisha, Talha and Zubayr didn't think so. Are you better to judge or these 'holy' personalities?

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shi'as look at details and find faults in Sahaba Kiram while ASWJ do all it takes to maintain the "theory" that all Sahaba are just this to enable them to deduce hadith. The Sahabi can only be excluded if his aqida is corrupted all other crimes are tolerable and to a certain degree Tab3 are given almost the same treatment but sunnis do not put up a fierce defence. This is large due to the believe they belong to the best generation (eg Marwan, Walid, Umar Ibn Saad)

My question to the people in this forum how many companions of Ameer ul Mumineen (as) apart from Hz Ammar ibn Yassir (ra) (who narrated very little ahadith for his seniority in companionship) narrated Ahadith of the Prophet (saw) in Sunni sources? (this will hold the key to the million dollar question which sect is closer to Ameer (as))

I came across this instruction from Ameer Muawiya (ra) to Mughaira to prohibit narrating hadith from the Shia of Ali, so i want to see how true this is.

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My question to the people in this forum how many companions of Ameer ul Mumineen (as) apart from Hz Ammar ibn Yassir (ra) (who narrated very little ahadith for his seniority in companionship) narrated Ahadith of the Prophet (saw) in Sunni sources? (this will hold the key to the million dollar question which sect is closer to Ameer (as))

Excellent question !

many more than in 12er ithna ashari ahadith.

just look at narrations from jabir b abdullah and abu saeed al khudri who were closer to hashimites in sunni sources alone over a 1000.Even Abu Dharr and Miqdad narrate more than Ammar IMHO

others like abdur rehman b abu layla , abdur rehman b abza, saaeed b jubair, hasan al basri , abu juhaifa , ibn hannifiyah, abu tufayl, jada b hubaira , bara b azib , hasan b ali , zayd b arqam are the well known names in sunni ahadith.

Just because muawiyah may or may not have prohibited mughira it does not mean they could keep a restive population in iraq and medina quiet about their support of ALids.Remeber the incident quoted by Suyuti when the companion Jariya b Qudama comes to muawiyah and their resulting argument.

Thus one can clearly see, that idea of 4th rightly guided caliph came much later after the martyrdom of Imam Ali(as). Whereas if this were true, there wouldnt have been 3 civil wars during Imam Ali(as)'s reign which later went on to him being cursed for 60 years from the mimbar.

Yes but also its true that sunni compromise position has compensated for that over the subsequent centuries by having a heavier tilt towards the Alids esp since the earlier Imams like ABu Hanifa and Malik were political shias ( although not ideological ones as 12ers would like to believe) So please give the sunnis credit for distancing themselves from the tyrants ( atleast theoratically) atleast their earlier Imams

ASWJ of the times of ummayyads is NOT THE SAME beliefs as ASWJ of today I hope the 12er imami friends understand that,the most glaring difference wrt our discussion is a very favorable view of Alids and particulary suportive of all the decisions of ALi in his caliphate althougth they shy away from open criticism of his opponents ( as some of them included very famous sahaba) and generally avoid going in the details.Its a politically correct sunday school version of events.


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^

Sunnis in general don't hate Imam Ali (as), it's just that they have a weird relation with him. They love both him and his enemies who rebelled against him and injustly accused him of covering the killers of Uthman.

reason being that most supporters of ALi hated Uthman and many wanted him dead although its debated who actually "pulled the trigger", and sunnis in general ignore the issue of uprising against uthman as this would incriminate many sahaba some pro-Ali like Ansar and Ammar and some anti-Ali like Talha and Amr b A'as

Interestingly sunnis dont really discredit Tabaeen for their opposition to Uthman either, Ashtar Al nakhai is still a respected narrater in sunni ahadith.

So we can flip the argument and say sunnis have also accomadated many sahaba and tabaeen who were very hostile to uthman.Those same people who were public enemy # 1 in times of ASWJ of ummayyads

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Yes but also its true that sunni compromise position has compensated for that over the subsequent centuries by having a heavier tilt towards the Alids esp since the earlier Imams like ABu Hanifa and Malik were political shias ( although not ideological ones as 12ers would like to believe) So please give the sunnis credit for distancing themselves from the tyrants ( atleast theoratically) atleast their earlier Imams

ASWJ of the times of ummayyads is NOT THE SAME beliefs as ASWJ of today I hope the 12er imami friends understand that,the most glaring difference wrt our discussion is a very favorable view of Alids and particulary suportive of all the decisions of ALi in his caliphate althougth they shy away from open criticism of his opponents ( as some of them included very famous sahaba) and generally avoid going in the details.Its a politically correct sunday school version of events.


Salaam.

Sorry but I cannot even give them credit for that because they praise the oppressors of Ahlul Bayt. Even if you ignore the first 3, the fact that they praise Muawiya despite the fact that he had Imam Ali(as) Assassinated and Imam Hassan(as) poisoned is enough for me to realise that they havent, in fact, distanced themselves from the tyrants. Some even go to the extent of praising Yazid who was an open Kaffir who murdered the grandson of RasoolAllah(sawa), Imam Hussain(as). The same grandson that rasoolAllah(s) spoke about and said: "Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain, Allah loves the one who loves Hussain. He also said the same thing about Imam Hassan(as). Tell me what kind of love is this? Where you turn a blind eye to murderers of the ones you love and go as far as praising them?

The only thing I give sunni's credit for is the fact that in their salah they still say "Allahumma Salli ala Muhammad, Wa ala aali Muhammad..." etc. At the end of their Salah. This may sound harsh but its the reality of the situation, unfortunately.

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are you saying that Malik al-Ashtar is a sunni narrator of hadith as well?

indeed he is in the chains of 3 sahih muslim hadith

he is a mukhadram rather than a tabi'i

he's a narrator in this narration and is third in the chain ie ibn Masud --> Abdur Rahman ibn Yazid - al Ashtar:

Abu Ahwas reported: We were in the house of Abu Musa along with some of the companions of 'Abdullah and they were looking at the Holy Book. 'Abdullah stood up, whereupon Abu Mas'ud said: I do not know whether Allah's Messenger, (may peace be upon him) has left after him one having a better knowledge (of Islam) than the man who is standing. Abu Musa said: If you say this, that is correct, because he had been present when we had been absent and he was permitted when we were detained.

I came across this instruction from Ameer Muawiya (ra) to Mughaira to prohibit narrating hadith from the Shia of Ali, so i want to see how true this is.

Salaam,

What narration is that?

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What narration is that?

That was an instruction from Hz Muawiya (ra) to Mughaira. Muawiya ordered for the collection of Ahadith and a request was specifically made to Hz Ayesha (ra) to write down the hadith and send to him. However he was given strict instruction to shun from the supporters of Ali (as) and to listen to the supporters of Uthman (ra).

I am surprised to hear that there is a sunni narration from Hz Malik Al-Ashtar (ra) considering views against him. It is strange that very little hadith were narrated from Hz Ammar ibn Yassir (ra). So we can say that later ASWJ scholars made some realignment, compromise to fit Ameer ul Mumineen (as) and his companions into the frame-work of Sahaba orientated Islam.

Yes, there are not many ahadith narrated by the companions of Ameer (as) in shi'i 12er sources. One friend asked whether Hz Abu Zar (ra) was a shi'i or sunni? i have read Al-Yaqoobi, where Hz Abu Zar openly declares that Janab Ameer (as) is a wasi and also in Al-Masoodi, Hz Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr (ra) mentioned the same thing. I presume there are not many sahih hadith narrated by Hz Abu Zar (ra) in shi'i sources?

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^Salam

Bro can you please give a source of this mughira's narration ?

If I'm not mistaken even Kumail b ziyad gets an entry in Isabah of ibn Hajar, ibn Hibban and Bukhari's biography dictionary with a trustworthy grading , not sure how many hadith he narrated

In a secondary source

It is strange that very little hadith were narrated from Hz Ammar ibn Yassir (ra)

several major sahaba narrate very few ahadith , even abu bakr and abu dujana both highly revered companions narrate very few

Ibn Masud and Ibn Abbas were other sources of several pro-Alid or atleast pro-banu hashim ahadith

Here is an extensive entry on Maitham Tammar from sunni Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalanai in Isaba , where he is counted as a sahabi

( hopefully an arab speaking bro/sis could translate it for the benefit of us all)

ميثم التمار الأسدينزل الكوفة وله بها ذرية ذكره المؤيد بن النعمان الرافضي في مناقب علي رضي الله عنه وقال كان ميثم التمار عبدا لامرأة من بني أسد فاشتراه علي منها وأعتقه وقال له ما اسمك قال سالم قال أخبرني رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن اسمك الذي سماك به أبواك في العجم ميثم قال صدق الله ورسوله وأمير المؤمنين والله إنه لاسمي قال فارجع إلى اسمك الذي سماك به رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ودع سالما فرجع ميثم واكتنى بأبي سالم فقال علي ذات يوم إنك تؤخذ بعدي فتصلب وتطعن بحربة فإذا جاء اليوم الثالث ابتدر منخراك وفوك دما فتخضب لحيتك وتصلب على باب عمرو بن حريث عاشر عشرة وأنت أقصرهم خشبة وأقربهم من المطهرة وامض حتى أريك النخلة التي تصلب على دذعها فأراه إياها وكان ميثم يأتيها فيصلي عندها ويقول بوركت من نخلة لك خلقت ولي غذيت فلم يزل يتعاهدها حتى قطعت ثم كان يلقى عمرو بن حريث فيقول له إني مجاورك فأحسن جواري فيقول له عمرو أتريد أن تشتري دار بن مسعود أو دار بن حكيم وهو لا يعلم ما يريد ثم حج في السنة التي قتل فيها فدخل غلام أم سلمة أم المؤمنين فقالت له من أنت قال أنا ميثم فقالت والله لربما سمعت من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يذكرك ويوصي بك عليا فسألها عن الحسين فقالت هو في حائط له فقال أخبريه أني قد أحببت السلام عليه فلم أجده ونحن ملتقون عند رب العرش إن شاء الله تعالى فدعت أم سلمة بطيب فطيبت به لحيته فقالت له أما إنها ستخضب بدم فقدم الكوفة فأخذه عبيد الله بن زياد فأدخل عليه فقال له هذا كان آثر الناس عند علي قال ويحكم هذا الأعجمي فقيل له نعم فقال له أين ربك قال بالمرصاد للظلمة وأنت منهم قال إنك على أعجميتك لتبلغ الذي تريد أخبرني ما الذي أخبرك صاحبك أني فاعل بك قال أخبرني أنك تصلبني عاشر عشرة وأنا أقصرهم خشبة وأقربهم من المطهرة قال لنخالفنه قال كيف تخالفه والله ما أخبرني إلا عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عن جبرائيل عن الله ولقد عرفت الموضع الذي أصلب فيه وأني أول خلق الله ألجم في الإسلام فحبسه وحبس معه المختار بن عبيد فقال ميثم للمختار إنك ستفلت وتخرج ثائرا بدم الحسين فتقتل هذا الذي يريد أن يقتلك فلما أراد عبيد الله أن يقتل المختار وصل بريد من يزيد يأمره بتخلية سبيله فخلاه وأمر بميثم أن يصلب فلما رفع على الخشبة عند باب عمرو بن حريث قال عمرو قد كان والله يقول لي إني مجاورك فجعل ميثم يحدث بفضائل بني هاشم فقيل لابن زياد قد فضحكم هذا العبد قال ألجموه فكان أول من ألجم في الإسلام فلما كان اليوم الثالث من صلبه طعن بالحربة فكبر ثم انبعث في آخر النهار فمه وأنفه دما وكان ذلك قبل مقدم

حسين العراق بعشرة أيام قلت ويأتي له حديث عن علي في ترجمة أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب في الكنى وتقدم لميثم هذا ذكر في ترجمة ميثم آخر في القسم الأول منه فليراجع منه

Look like they really hate Imam Ali (as)

post-81403-0-11939200-1364336791_thumb.j

post-81403-0-43441400-1364336821_thumb.j

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Metallica_-_Kill_%27Em_All_cover.jpg

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I came across this instruction from Ameer Muawiya (ra) to Mughaira to prohibit narrating hadith from the Shia of Ali, so i want to see how true this is.

Ameer Muawiyah...? Ameer? :huh:

He started the cursing of Ali (as) on the Pulpits, he also fought against him and his son. He was ruthless and power hungry fitna mongerer, yet he is still your 'Ameer'? Wow... SubhanAllah, when you are forbidden to use your Aql and blindly accept that all the Sahaba were righteous human beings this is the end result.

Perhaps he did that so the truth was suppressed. You know, that's what blood thirsty tyrants do. Oppress people and the truth.

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