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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Do We Sunnis Hate Imam Ali?

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Bro can you please give a source of this mughira's narration ?

Walaikum Salam Bro,

Yes, i will give you later it is in one of my books.

several major sahaba narrate very few ahadith , even abu bakr and abu dujana both highly revered companions narrate very few

Both Hz Abu Bakr (ra) & Hz Abu Dujana (ra) are among the early Ashab and both died before the collection of ahadith can take place also considering the fact Sheikhyn Kiramyn banned/disliked narrating hadith. The odd twist to this is that Hz Ammar ibn Yassir (ra) is a contemporary of Hz Abu Bakr (ra) in the rank of seniority. Hz Ammar (ra) lived very long until atleast the battle of Siffin.

He has vast knowledge and the fact that censorship played a major part in losing the knowledge that we would otherwise gained from him. His son was mentioned in one of the shi'i narrations regarding the merits of Syeda Zahra (as).

Here is an extensive entry on Maitham Tammar from sunni Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalanai in Isaba , where he is counted as a sahabi

I am glad to see narrations from him although from a secondary source. Mashallah, he is also a sahabi. Hz Maitham Tammar (ra) every shi'i should take pride in him.

It proves that ASWJ has no grudges against Janab Ameer (as) or his supporters.

He started the cursing of Ali (as) on the Pulpits, he also fought against him and his son. He was ruthless and power hungry fitna mongerer, yet he is still your 'Ameer'? Wow... SubhanAllah, when you are forbidden to use your Aql and blindly accept that all the Sahaba were righteous human beings this is the end result.

Brother, we did what was necessary to at least salvage what is left of the traditions from our Prophet (saw), knowledge has been scattered all-over, you will find knowledgeable people in both sides either Uthmani or Allawi so we wanted to consolidate knowledge, sufficient to hold the pillars of Islam. We have forsaken political consideration that you have mentioned for the greater good of Islam. Our whole setup is non-political. We only dismiss individuals with aqeeda problem. As far as Ameer Muawiya (ra), you cannot show us one incident which will reflect his corrupted aqida, no matter how much blood he has spilled his aqeeda is still intact.

As for you who call me to use aql, i can prove to you that your school has not been using aql for the past 1200 years. If you have aql please solve this problem:

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His son was mentioned in one of the shi'i narrations regarding the merits of Syeda Zahra (as).

which son ? Muhmmad b ammar ?

he is mentioned in Tabari as a supporter of abdullah b zubbair who was flogged by Amr b Zubair

Hz Maitham Tammar (ra) every shi'i should take pride in him.

It proves that ASWJ has no grudges against Janab Ameer (as) or his supporters.

every sunni should be too right ?

companions of Ali are stalwarts of sunni ahadith there is no question of a grudge here, very few companions of ALi like Asbagh b nutaba are treated as weak by sunni ahadith scholars ( more on him and views on him will be appreciated ) he might be one of those who exaggeratted Ali's merits.Its right that sunnis are cautious of people who project ALi as a superhero but what is inexplicable why are men like muaiwyah Amr b a'as Habib b maslama and other people who revolted against the khalifah of their time caused so much fitna and derailed the political side of Islam get off on a technicality of not having corrupted aqaidh.COme on bro, I get it that shia have corrupted aqaidh atleast per sunnis but what about those who disrupted the state of Islam for personal gains ? are they no better than hypocrites ?

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Hz Ammar (ra) lived very long until atleast the battle of Siffin.

Yes thats true, many more narrations come from hudhayfa friend of Ammar.Other early companions who lived long also have few narrations like Ka'b b Amr ( last Badri to die) and Talha b Ubaidullah etc

I guess the companions with the best students narrated the most even if they were young sahabis or late converts, that explains likes of Abu Huraisrh, ibn Abbas , abu Saed khudri narrating so many ahadith even though they spent less time with the Prophet than earlier Sahaba

Maybe Umar and AbuBakr prohibited telling of hadith to prevent the corrupted practices of newly converts from entering into Islam, afterall both the shaykhs strove so hard to maintian the cohesion of the empire.Another reason could be to prevent hero worship from starting in islam as you know both Abubakr/umar did not promote their tribes or family members while both later ummayyads and hashimites did.Even the rise of Aisha is more in the post-shaykhain period not before that.

Brother, we did what was necessary to at least salvage what is left of the traditions from our Prophet (saw), knowledge has been scattered all-over, you will find knowledgeable people in both sides either Uthmani or Allawi so we wanted to consolidate knowledge, sufficient to hold the pillars of Islam

I do agree with that, esp since this pertains to beliefs and aqaids which could not be influenced by political orientation.However I dont see how the persoanlities who were corrupt and spread fitna can be treated with respect ( even though one may not automatically reject their hadith)

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which son ? Muhmmad b ammar ?

he is mentioned in Tabari as a supporter of abdullah b zubbair who was flogged by Amr b Zubair

I cant recall his name but he narrated a hadith and it is found in Bihar Al-Anwar.

Even the rise of Aisha is more in the post-shaykhain period not before that.

That is accurate. Hz Ayesha (ra) gained prestige and influence from her position as Ummul Mumineen & daughter of the first caliph. She used her clout to raise an army of thousands of men in Basra before the battle of Jamal.

.COme on bro, I get it that shia have corrupted aqaidh atleast per sunnis but what about those who disrupted the state of Islam for personal gains ? are they no better than hypocrites ?

We did justice with the character such as Ameer Muawiya (ra) by not including him amongst the Khulafa Al- Rashideen. I believe we all consider hypocrite as a person who do not believe in Islam but pretend to be one eg Abdullah ibn Ubayy and even then our Prophet (saw) tolerated him despite the fierce Quranic condemnation.

On the issue of hadith, we do not take political inclination as a factor, i must admit there are drawbacks such as the hadith narrated by Amr bin Aas that the most beloved of the Prophet (saw) are Hz Abu Bakr (ra) & Hz Ayesha (ra), coming from Amr bin Aas i do not think you cant expect him to say Syedna Ali (as). So there is definitely a margin of error (<5%) but by far it is the most efficient method.

It is an honest effort to consolidate knowledge from all sections of the community and all factions. So the Islam you get is balanced and cohesive.

every sunni should be too right ?

Yes but Sunnis are not well informed regarding him and further more he was a special companion of Hz Ali (as) and was martyred for his sake. That is the reason i believe shias should take pride in him.

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On the issue of hadith, we do not take political inclination as a factor, i must admit there are drawbacks such as the hadith narrated by Amr bin Aas that the most beloved of the Prophet (saw) are Hz Abu Bakr (ra) & Hz Ayesha (ra), coming from Amr bin Aas i do not think you cant expect him to say Syedna Ali (as). So there is definitely a margin of error (<5%) but by far it is the most efficient method.

I agree and obviously imami shia hadith has its own shortcomings, Amr b A'as was hardly a supporter of Abu Bakr either considering he had the chameleon like personality.He is like Marwan an astute politician a great survivor and utterly unscrupulous.Interestingly however he is also a narrater of hadith that ammar will be killed by rebels ! likely when both Amr and Ammar were making common cause against Uthman in Egypt

Also there are many pro-Ali ahadith too which are narrated by sahaba /tabaeen who were supporters of ALi so I guess they hangs a big question mark over them as well.

It is an honest effort to consolidate knowledge from all sections of the community and all factions. So the Islam you get is balanced and cohesive.

It really is overall I'm very impressed with the impartiality of sunni biographers.

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Bro,

Also there are many pro-Ali ahadith too which are narrated by sahaba /tabaeen who were supporters of ALi so I guess they hangs a big question mark over them as well.

Nothing surprising, the pro-Alid ahadith were included to stem out the Nawasib sentiments left by the Uthmani predecessors particularly in Sham. Those hadith are mostly found in Sahih Tarmizi (mostly are graded weak) and i am sure you must be aware of Khasais Ali by Imam Nasai. Ibn Taimiya expressed his dissatisfaction with the inclusion of many pro-Alid ahadith.

The scholars of ASWJ were acutely aware that Hz Ali (as) was on Haq.

Bro can you please give a source of this mughira's narration ?

It is found in Tabari.

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Look like they really hate Imam Ali (as)

post-81403-0-11939200-1364336791_thumb.j

post-81403-0-43441400-1364336821_thumb.j

Do you believe these images are genuine? You are not even sure about the place. A Sunni would never do anything like that.

How desperate you are. Instead of answering properly you put these fake pictures.

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Do you believe these images are genuine? You are not even sure about the place. A Sunni would never do anything like that.

How desperate you are. Instead of answering properly you put these fake pictures.

They are not fake, Sunnis have indeed - hidden animosity toward Ahl al-Bayt (as) (Not all of you of course)

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They are not fake, Sunnis have indeed - hidden animosity toward Ahl al-Bayt (as) (Not all of you of course)

This is not true Brother, our Brother here Panzer Waffe has dismissed this argument. The basis is simple, we are system orientated rather than hero worship. We tend to look at Islam as a whole without looking into any particular individual for perfection other than our Holy Messenger (saw). We have this hierarchy of Four Pious Companions followed by other Companions. If you refer hidden animosity to Ibn Taimiyya that is absolutely true. The rest of the ASWJ honestly included many-many merits of the Ahle Bayt out love and affection without thinking that opponents may weaponize it against us.

No hidden animosity but the most important narrations do come from parties apposed to Ameer ul Mumineen (as) eg Abu Huraira (ra), Hz Ayesha (ra) & to a certain extent Ibn Umar (ra) that is why our scholars cant take a partisan stand against certain individuals as it will result in the lost of knowledge.

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@Ebn Tie me yeah... ;) before we can discuss let me ask you a question...and from your answer we will understand what position you hold in Islam...ive been reading forums normally no one reads what you say but you getting replies =]

Sahih Muslim : 020

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Who are the 12?...a bit off topic but it will help me understand your stance... because when u say things like "we are system oriented"...which I think is such an ambiguous statement which hardly anyone understands like...how can you be system oriented... a "system" is something with functionality...hmmm care to explain?

u can orient yourself on jurisprudence but system oriented where did u get that from...like ive seen many people try to act smart but BY Allah that was one of the funniest one's ive HURD

You also said rather than "hero worship" ... hmm a very big and once again ambiguous statement which has no backing... THE SHIA ONLY WORSHIP Allah...

lol What the HELL is "we are system orientated rather than hero worship"<--- TOPIC FOR QUOTE OF THE DAY IF ANYONE IS BOTHERED!

but BY Allah we are dieing to know so please tell us how:

1. ONE CAN BECOME MORE "system oriented" (looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool)

2. & how people "hero worship"

3. in your fiqh who are the 12 successors

were not going to argue about 12 or imam's or anything i just want to see your list, so we can see if you revere those who oppose Ali to answer the the main topic

=]

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^ hadith of 12 is a quraish superority hadith a number of which are in both shia and sunni sources.This has been discussed in depth many times before.

Both shia and sunni extol and glorify certain persoanlities but imami shias definately go to an extreme in this, but sunnis are not blame free either in this respect.

What bro Eben e team yeah is saying that the strength of a narrater is independent of his/her political orientation, as long as his aqaidh are not corrupted.However in this respect shia leaning narraters are at a disadvantage as they have a greater tendency towards Ghulu than nawasib narraters.However there are many shia leaning narraters in sunni ahadith chains.

No hidden animosity but the most important narrations do come from parties apposed to Ameer ul Mumineen (as) eg Abu Huraira (ra), Hz Ayesha (ra) & to a certain extent Ibn Umar (ra) that is why our scholars cant take a partisan stand against certain individuals as it will result in the lost of knowledge

Very true and jazakallh for being big hearted enough to say that

Ibn Abbas, Jabir b abdullah and abu saaed khudri balance it to a certain extent , and i believe ibn umar is genuinely neutral narrater.

Ibn Taimiya

expressed his dissatisfaction with the inclusion of many pro-Alid ahadith

I think he was a very intelligent man he just was very opinionated and wasted his time in munazara like religious debates.His hatred of imami shias probably led him to take a very harsh view of Ali and his supporters which is sad.I found Ibn Kathir's Al Bidayah a more balanced work, what do you think bro ?

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walaikum salam Bro,

Thanks for your explanation. ASWJ reconciled conflicts amongst various factions.

^ hadith of 12 is a quraish superority hadith a number of which are in both shia and sunni sources

Yes the 12 amirs hadith is reported as you rightly pointed out in Saheh Bukhari. You can ask Macissac for his input in this matter, the biggest doubt he has is that why didnt the waqifi companions of Imam Kathim (as) believe in the continuity of the Imama to complete the 12, the narration regarding the names are fabrications.

I found Ibn Kathir's Al Bidayah a more balanced work, what do you think bro ?

I have read certain parts of it especially on Karbala, it is currently the most favored work. I was told that it is a summarised version of Tabari which i have read extensively.

The only source on karbala, banu saqifa, shura, jamal & siffeen are from Abu Mikhnaf. I believe you have read that the stoppage of water to Imam Al-Husayn (as) is an act of revenge for Hz Uthman (ra). So the work is balanced and fair although his sheikh is ibn taimiyya

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walaikum salam Bro,

Thanks for your explanation. ASWJ reconciled conflicts amongst various factions.

Yes the 12 amirs hadith is reported as you rightly pointed out in Saheh Bukhari. You can ask Macissac for his input in this matter, the biggest doubt he has is that why didnt the waqifi companions of Imam Kathim (as) believe in the continuity of the Imama to complete the 12, the narration regarding the names are fabrications.

I have read certain parts of it especially on Karbala, it is currently the most favored work. I was told that it is a summarised version of Tabari which i have read extensively.

The only source on karbala, banu saqifa, shura, jamal & siffeen are from Abu Mikhnaf. I believe you have read that the stoppage of water to Imam Al-Husayn (as) is an act of revenge for Hz Uthman (ra). So the work is balanced and fair although his sheikh is ibn taimiyya

Salam

Bro sources of saqifa is more diverse I think, Zubair b Bakkar wrote a book on it too plus there is Tareekh Madina Munawwara as well.

Tabari takes Jamal almost all from Sayf b Umar tamimi and ignores other versions

About Siffin and Karbala undoutably no work of history is complete without abu mikhanaf and ibn kalbis ( who were best placed to record these events since ancestors of both fought in siffin/jamal for Ali ) The works of mikhnaf and kalbis although anti-syrian and pro-iraiqi are hardly pro-imami shias as they predate these tendencies by decades.Also ibn Kalbis ancestors also back the rising of abdur rehman b Ashath b qays who was a iraqi nationalist and NOT a imami shia

And yes stopping water to hussain, killing of talha by marwan, sacking of medina after harrah were all apparently in retaliation against murder of uthman

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I love it how Sunnis they say "they love Ahlulbayt" but then then praise those that killed them and mistreated them.

Besides Abu Bakr, Omar, and Othman, which they highly praise, they also praise Mawyiah and I have also heard many of them praising Yazid.

Then they come and say they love Ahlulbayt?

I thought about this a long time ago and I figured it out. Sunnis are tribal! The word "Sunni" itself disribes that how they are trying to stick to "Sunnah" of their fathers and tribes. That is why they all pray differently.

Have you noticed them in prayer and how they cross their hands?

I have been along Sunnis way too long, been to their Masjids and have had them as friends and I say that to their face, they are not deciving Allah (swt), and messenger (pbuh) and Ahlulbayt (as) buy their casual love of Ahlulbayt.

Love means following, being committed too, being friends of those who love you and being fierst enemies of those who hate you. To cry at your death and be happy for your birth. I only see us Shias doing this!

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14 hours ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

"He is a liar indeed who claims to love us , but does not denounce our enemies" Imam Jaffer Al Saqid (as) 

Salam,

Brother first of all I want to tell you that we dont believe in the imamate of your last 9 imams except Maula Ali , Hasan , Husain ....

May be Jafar Al Sadiq said this ... but we dont believe in anything which Jafar Al Saqiq said....

Everyone loves Maula Ali and Tajdare Medina ! ( muhammad ( saw ) 

 

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Salam,

Brother first of all I want to tell you that we dont believe in the imamate of your last 9 imams except Maula Ali , Hasan , Husain ....

May be Jafar Al Sadiq said this ... but we dont believe in anything which Jafar Al Saqiq said....

Everyone loves Maula Ali and Tajdare Medina ! ( muhammad ( saw ) 

 

If Imam jafar [as] who is the scholar of Ahlul bayt [as] says something, why wouldn't you believe in it? Where do you think Ahlul bayt [as] receives their knowledge from?

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45 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

If Imam jafar [as] who is the scholar of Ahlul bayt [as] says something, why wouldn't you believe in it? Where do you think Ahlul bayt [as] receives their knowledge from?

If we start believing in what Jafar Al Sadiq said, so he also said this " Every land is Karbala and every day is Ashura "... But we dont believe in this...

What Jafar Al Sadiq has said in our hadeethes like Sahih Al Bukhari .. We only believe in that....

Ahlul Bayt recieved its knowledge from our beloved rasulallah ( saw ) ....And from Allah ... Not from Jafar al Sadiq..

You are a shia thats why u think like this !

I want to ask something from you !Tell me why Shias do matam on Ashura ! ??

Give me a proper answer.

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2 minutes ago, Shawaiz Ali Khan said:

If we start believing in what Jafar Al Sadiq said, so he also said this " Every land is Karbala and every day is Ashura "... But we dont believe in this...

What Jafar Al Sadiq has said in our hadeethes like Sahih Al Bukhari .. We only believe in that....

Ahlul Bayt recieved its knowledge from our beloved rasulallah ( saw ) ....And from Allah ... Not from Jafar al Sadiq..

You are a shia thats why u think like this !

I want to ask something from you !Tell me why Shias do matam on Ashura ! ??

Give me a proper answer.

facepalm.jpg

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19 minutes ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

And where do you think Jafar as-saadiq [as] is from? What family?

And how do you think he received the title As-saadiq from both his opponents and allies?

He was descendent of Maula Ali ( r.a ) and Hazrat Sayyiduna Abu Bakr Sidiqque !

I dont know very much about him but sadiq means truthful...and he was truthful .. we agree...

He was also the teacher of Imam Malik ....

I asked u a question brother ...

Why shias do matam on ashura ?

 

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5 hours ago, Shawaiz Ali Khan said:

He was descendent of Maula Ali ( r.a ) and Hazrat Sayyiduna Abu Bakr Sidiqque !

I dont know very much about him but sadiq means truthful...and he was truthful .. we agree...

He was also the teacher of Imam Malik ....

I asked u a question brother ...

Why shias do matam on ashura ?

 

What does matam on ashura have anything remotely to do with why Imam jafar [as] should be followed or not? If you want to speak about matam we can after we finish our discussion on Imam jafar [as].

My question to you is this, when Imam jafar [as] quoted a hadith, what do you think his "sanad" was?

 

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18 hours ago, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

What does matam on ashura have anything remotely to do with why Imam jafar [as] should be followed or not? If you want to speak about matam we can after we finish our discussion on Imam jafar [as].

My question to you is this, when Imam jafar [as] quoted a hadith, what do you think his "sanad" was?

 

Assalamwalekum Brother,

Brother I dont know much about Imam Jafar Al Sadiq..

I had only been knowing his hadeethes in Al Kuttub Al Sittah ...

Our topic was Imam Ali not Jafar Al Sadiq !

 

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2 hours ago, Shawaiz Ali Khan said:

Assalamwalekum Brother,

Brother I dont know much about Imam Jafar Al Sadiq..

I had only been knowing his hadeethes in Al Kuttub Al Sittah ...

Our topic was Imam Ali not Jafar Al Sadiq !

 

Imam Jafar as-saadiq [as] was a scholar from Ahlul Bayt, and was their leader at the time. Who do you think taught Imam jafar [as] hadith about his grandfather Muahmmad [saw]?

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MashAllah! A very productive discussions and yes a very decent one except for on guy going nuts against Imam Jafar (rah). My dear brother,Imam Jafar (rah) was pious scholar of islam,revered by both sunni and shia schools of thought,he is the teacher of Imam Malik and Hanifa (rah) both leading schools of jurisprudence in Sunni school of thought and Also,the compiler of Jafari jurisprudence followed by shia school of thought. As,for muwaiya (i am a sunni and i dont know if i should put "ra" here,lol) the discussion you guys have done is very civil and its very productive guyss

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1 hour ago, sunnilove2hussain said:

As,for muwaiya (i am a sunni and i dont know if i should put "ra" here,lol) 

Let me help you brother with 2 hadith and you can make your own decision about ra for Muawiya:

Zirr reported:
'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me.    
Sahih Muslim » The Book of Faith 
Book 1, Hadith 146

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyan appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:
What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camels. I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) say about 'Ali as he left him behind in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'Ali said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger, and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We had been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: "Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.
Sahih Muslim » The Book of the Merits of the Companions 
Book 44, Hadith 50

Muawiya nursed a grudge against Imam Ali...

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Sunnis do not harbor hatred towards Imam Ali (as).  Many Sunni historians and scholars denounced Muawiya and his actions against the family of Ahlul Bayt (as).  In addition, many Sunni writers wrote about the tragedy of Karbala in profound ways, and the Sufi Sunnis attribute the suffering of Imam Husayn (as) inherent in the proliferation of the "growth of the soul" (Schimmel). Sana'i one of the greatest and most prolific Sufi poets wrote: 

Your religion is your Husayn, greed and wish are your pigs and dogs
  You kill the one, thirsty, and nourish the other two. (Schimmel n.p.)

 

He also called Imam Husayn (as) the "prototype of the Shahid"

Do not conflate modern interpretations of a politicized Islam to be the fundamentals of Sunni Islam. One of the great Sunni Sheikhs warned against Ibn Abdul Wahhab's declaration of visiting the Prophet (saw)'s grave to be "shirk," the sheikh called Muslims to denounce this ideology and separate themselves from it.

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Bismilahi Rahmani Arrahim

Salamu Alaikum All

I have not seen any sunni muslim hating Ali RA or cursing him Ali is the fourth khalif of islam, he is the cousin of the prophet SAW and son in law, he had never ever worshiped an idol unlike all other sahabat of the prophet, he is the father of the two greatest of all world youngtsers Hassan and Hussein RA.

so please we sunnis like Ali and all other Sahabat of the prophet

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I'm a bit late to see and reply this.

Shia/Sunni blah blah blah...

Sunnis never hate Hazrat Ali, a bogus fact propagated by people like you to create a rift amongst us.

First of all, we are muslims secondly belonging to any background we always had a great respect for Hazrat Ali(R.A)/ Maula Ali. Dont you know the meaning of darood shareef which includes Hazrat Ali, Hazrat Imam Husain, Hazrat Imam Hasan even the whole family(Ahlul-Bait). see the translation....

O Allah, let Your Blessings come upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious. Allah, bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious.

Regarding Muaviyah, We never ever can compare with Ahle-Bait. And we always cursed Yazid and the people who betrayed Hazrat Imam Hussain and took part in his martyrdom.

Now coming to enemies of Hazrat Ali, who were those?

 

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