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People of all ages sex are addicted to face book . A profile with scantily clothed woman will have hundreds of friends .men have befriended women & women men and chat endlessly leaving less or no time 4 the family leading to marital discords dont u think something needs to be done or is it ok ???

Facebook has its advantages and disadvantages. It can become addicting and be a playground for dangerous people. On a brighter note, if one can stay responsible and stick to religious discussions on their facebook page, promote Islam and not advertise any pictures of themselves on their facebook page... then I dont see why not!

(wasalam)

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Facebook is nice, it saves me time /money. Plus its better than asking her for her phone number, lol just facebookkkk her! But still fb is garbage. im closing mine in 5yrs.

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It is not Facebook that is the problem, it is lack of knowledge and lack of taqwa that is the problem.

If Facebook disappeared tomorrow, and the Internet was still around, then another site would pop up for the same purpose.

It is a duty for young brothers and sisters to study and investigate the behaviour of our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams(a.s) and try

as best we can to imitate their behavior. That is what is means to be Shia and Muslim.

For the sisters, please answer for me this one, simple question.

If you believe that it is ok to go on Facebook and post your pictures and txt guys from Facebook and leave comments on their wall

and chat back and forth with them about silly, nonsense then let me ask you this...

If Fatima As Zahra(a.s) were alive today, do you think that she would ever do any of this stuff? If you say yes, then you are seriously

misinformed about her behavior. If you say No, then why are you doing it? If she is really your role model and you want to be

raised with her on the Day of Judgment and keep her company, then why are you doing something that you know that she would never do?

For the brothers, the same question. If Imam Ali(a.s) or Rasoulallah(s.a.w.s) were alive today, do you think they would be going on Facebook

doing the things that you are doing, and with the purpose that you are doing it for (and you know what your purpose is, don't lie to yourself)

If your Niyyat(intention) is for Halal marriage, then this purpose should be stated at the beginning of your interaction with non mahram.

This was the practice of Rasoulallah and all our Imams(a.s) and they never broke this practice.

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It is not Facebook that is the problem, it is lack of knowledge and lack of taqwa that is the problem.

If Facebook disappeared tomorrow, and the Internet was still around, then another site would pop up for the same purpose.

It is a duty for young brothers and sisters to study and investigate the behaviour of our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams(a.s) and try

as best we can to imitate their behavior. That is what is means to be Shia and Muslim.

For the sisters, please answer for me this one, simple question.

If you believe that it is ok to go on Facebook and post your pictures and txt guys from Facebook and leave comments on their wall

and chat back and forth with them about silly, nonsense then let me ask you this...

If Fatima As Zahra(a.s) were alive today, do you think that she would ever do any of this stuff? If you say yes, then you are seriously

misinformed about her behavior. If you say No, then why are you doing it? If she is really your role model and you want to be

raised with her on the Day of Judgment and keep her company, then why are you doing something that you know that she would never do?

For the brothers, the same question. If Imam Ali(a.s) or Rasoulallah(s.a.w.s) were alive today, do you think they would be going on Facebook

doing the things that you are doing, and with the purpose that you are doing it for (and you know what your purpose is, don't lie to yourself)

If your Niyyat(intention) is for Halal marriage, then this purpose should be stated at the beginning of your interaction with non mahram.

This was the practice of Rasoulallah and all our Imams(a.s) and they never broke this practice.

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Things (religious questions) are referred upon us (which) we do not recognize (find) in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

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Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Things (religious questions) are referred upon us (which) we do not recognize (find) in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

(salam)

The above hadith applies when you are applying strict rulings such as how much inheritance does one get, how do we bury someone if so and so etc

The hadith does not refer to using common sense in day to day activity. You should be aware of what you are doing, thats what we mean by common sense. This is not Qiyas.

5Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÕøÇÏÞõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): áÇ íóÞÈóáõ Çááøåþõ ÚóãóáÇð ÅáøÇ ÈöãóÚÑöÝóÉò¡ æáÇ ãóÚÑöÝóÉð ÅáøÇ ÈöÚóãóáò ¡ Ýãóä ÚóÑóÝó ÏóáóøÊåõ ÇáãóÚÑöÝóÉõ Úóáóì ÇáÚóãóáö ¡ æãóä áóã íóÚãóáú ÝáÇ ãóÚÑöÝóÉó áóåõ .

5– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘Allah does not accept any act without inner knowledge [i.e. awareness of what one is doing], and inner knowledge only comes through prior action. So whoever knows intrinsically, his knowledge will lead him to action, and whoever does not act does not have any inner knowledge.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 44, no. 2]

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(salam)

The above hadith applies when you are applying strict rulings such as how much inheritance does one get, how do we bury someone if so and so etc

The hadith does not refer to using common sense in day to day activity. You should be aware of what you are doing, thats what we mean by common sense. This is not Qiyas.

5Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÕøÇÏÞõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): áÇ íóÞÈóáõ Çááøåþõ ÚóãóáÇð ÅáøÇ ÈöãóÚÑöÝóÉò¡ æáÇ ãóÚÑöÝóÉð ÅáøÇ ÈöÚóãóáò ¡ Ýãóä ÚóÑóÝó ÏóáóøÊåõ ÇáãóÚÑöÝóÉõ Úóáóì ÇáÚóãóáö ¡ æãóä áóã íóÚãóáú ÝáÇ ãóÚÑöÝóÉó áóåõ .

5– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘Allah does not accept any act without inner knowledge [i.e. awareness of what one is doing], and inner knowledge only comes through prior action. So whoever knows intrinsically, his knowledge will lead him to action, and whoever does not act does not have any inner knowledge.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 44, no. 2]

(wasalam)

Why did you translate ma'arifat to "inner/intrinsic" knowledge? The hadith is talking about acting without recognition/knowledge. It doesn't mention anything about inner/intrinsic knowledge which can then be meant to imply that we should go about our religious affairs as per our logic and common sense. It has also been placed under the section of Act without knowledge, ÈÇÈ ãä Úãá ÈÛíÑ Úáã.

As for the knowledge about religious affairs, ahadith make it clear that it's to be gained through ahadith.

BTW, you didn't mention the full hadith either. Here:

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÓäÇä¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä¡ Úä ÍÓíä ÇáÕíÞá (1) ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) íÞæá: áÇ íÞÈá Çááå ÚãáÇ ÅáÇ ÈãÚÑÝÉ æáÇ ãÚÑÝÉ ÅáÇ ÈÚãá¡ Ýãä ÚÑÝ ÏáÊå ÇáãÚÑÝÉ Úáì ÇáÚãá¡ æãä áã íÚãá ÝáÇ ãÚÑÝÉ áå¡ ÃáÇ Åä ÇáÇíãÇä ÈÚÖå ãä ÈÚÖ

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The hadith uses ma'rifat to denote intrinsic knowledge gained after understanding Quran and Ahlul Bayt. Marifa'at means you take principles from Quran and from the lives of Ahlul Bayt and apply them to common day situations.

This is what is meant by common sense to Shia Muslims.

The hadith you quoted to Abu Hadi accuses him of using common sense when he is using ma'rifat.

Jabir asked

“o my master! What is the maarifat of spirit?”

Imam said

“he is aware of that amr is given to the one with whom Allah has specified his spirit; he creates with his permission, he gives life, he is aware of the intentions and knows the thoughts; and is aware of all what has happened or would happed till the day of qayamat; and this is because spirit is the amr of Allah. So when Allah specifies spirit with someone, he is perfect, and is not having any defect or fault. He does what he wishes with the permission of Allah. He can travel from west to east in a second. He can move up or down the skies, and can do what he wishes or wills.”

Obviously that is the highest level of ma'rifat but this can be applied to day to day activity too.

Edited by Ya Baqiyatullah (aj)
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Kafi

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الوشاء، عن مثنى الحناط، عن أبي بصير قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): ترد علينا أشياء ليس نعرفها في كتاب الله ولا سنة فننظر فيها؟ فقال: لا، أما إنك إن أصبت لم تؤجر، وإن أخطأت كذبت على الله عز وجل

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Things (religious questions) are referred upon us (which) we do not recognize (find) in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

I don't know how this ahadith is relevant to what I said. The hadith is speaking about those who issue fatawa (religious orders) while referring to their own thinking without refering to Ahl Al Bayt.

First, I am not issuing a fatawa as I have no right to do that since I am not a mujtahid. Second, I am referring br and sis to examine the actions and traditions of Ahl Al Bayt with regards to this issue, in case there is any misunderstanding. I am simply asking br and sis to examine the activities that they do on Facebook (and some even on SC also) such as open-ended chats with non mahrams, posting of pictures of themselves to non mahrams, and posting comments to non mahrams. Asking someone to examine their own actions in light of

traditions of our models, which are Ahl Al Bayt is not against any tradition that I know of. Again, if you as a sister believe, based on your knowledge, that Fatima As Zahra(a.s) would engage in these actions, then you are misinformed and I challenge anyone, including Bhooka to post any 'authentic' ahadith that shows that she (Fatima(a.s)) had any unstructured, open-ended interactions with non mahram. If you believe she would not engage in these actions, and you are engaging in them, then you should think about what you are doing and ask yourself the question, 'If she is my role model, then why am I doing things that I know she wouldn't do?. Same goes for the brothers.

Again, to clarify. I am not issuing a religious order. I am not saying Facebook is haram, or posting on Facebook is haram. It all depends on your niyyat and the content of what you are saying and who you are interacting with that makes it haram/not haram. I am simply asking people to think about what they are doing. Is that haram?

Edited by Abu Hadi
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The hadith uses ma'rifat to denote intrinsic knowledge gained after understanding Quran and Ahlul Bayt. Marifa'at means you take principles from Quran and from the lives of Ahlul Bayt and apply them to common day situations.

This is what is meant by common sense to Shia Muslims.

The hadith you quoted to Abu Hadi accuses him of using common sense when he is using ma'rifat.

Obviously that is the highest level of ma'rifat but this can be applied to day to day activity too.

That's your personal opinion. Otherwise provide ahadith to prove your point. Here's the hadith I quoted:

Kafi

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáæÔÇÁ¡ Úä ãËäì ÇáÍäÇØ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÇÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÊÑÏ ÚáíäÇ ÃÔíÇÁ áíÓ äÚÑÝåÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Çááå æáÇ ÓäÉ ÝääÙÑ ÝíåÇ¿ ÝÞÇá: áÇ¡ ÃãÇ Åäß Åä ÃÕÈÊ áã ÊÄÌÑ¡ æÅä ÃÎØÃÊ ßÐÈÊ Úáì Çááå ÚÒ æÌá

Muhammd b.Yahya, from Ahmad b.Muhammad, from al Washa', from Muthnal Hanaat, from Abi Baseer said: (I) said to Abi Abdullah(as) "Things (religious questions) are referred upon us (which) we do not recognize (find) in book of Allah (swt) or sunnah so we look(through logic and common sense) into it (for answer). (Imam(as)) said "No, if you're right you'll get no reward, and if you made mistake then you lied upon Allah (swt)."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/logic-and-common-sense-in-islam.html

The hadith makes it very clear that even the close companions of the Imam(as) who had learnt ahadith directly from him(as), Imam(as) didn't allow them to give rulings as per common sense/logic etc even though they would have gained better "intrinsic knowledge" than the ulama of today. Anyhow, the hadith you quoted is not even saying anything of that sort anyway.

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I don't know how this ahadith is relevant to what I said. The hadith is speaking about those who issue fatawa (religious orders) while referring to their own thinking without refering to Ahl Al Bayt.

(salam)

It is. Here's what you said:

If Fatima As Zahra(a.s) were alive today, do you think that she would ever do any of this stuff?.........................................For the brothers, the same question.If Imam Ali(a.s) or Rasoulallah(s.a.w.s) were alive today, do you think they would be going on Facebook

doing the things that you are doing

As per ahadith (one of which I already posted), we're not allowed to handle religious issues with our imagination/guesswork (if this was so and so, do you think such and such would happen etc).

including Bhooka to post any 'authentic' ahadith that shows that she (Fatima(a.s)) had any unstructured, open-ended interactions with non mahram.

Of course she(as) didn't. But you can't do qiyas of that and apply it to facebook.

It's also ironic that when I post ahadith(including from Bibi Fatima) showing that it's recommended for women to stay in the innermost corner of their home as well as it best being for women that no man ever sees her and nor does she ever see one; then fools start coming out of their holes saying "Fatima(as) used to gives speeches" (actually she(as) gave only one speech, that too from behind a curtain, and hopefully those with a functional brain would understand that she(as) was forced by extreme circumstances).

So what's it gonna be, did Bibi Fatima(as) used to go out regularly to give speeches and gain publicity (May Allah(swt)'s curse be on those liars who dare attribute such filth to the pure lady) or not?

Anyhow, as per hadith women shouldn't be taught how to write anyway (although I understand as per you it supposedly contradicts with "sahih and mutawatir" hadith) so if we act upon ahadith then this problem wouldn't even occur in the first place.

I am simply asking people to think about what they are doing. Is that haram?

If that's all you'd said then there's nothing wrong in that.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya
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Divorce lawyers claim the explosion in the popularity of websites such as Facebook and Bebo is tempting to people to cheat on their partners. "The most common reason seemed to be people having inappropriate sexual chats with people they were not supposed to."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/6857918/Facebook-fuelling-divorce-research-claims.html
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That's your personal opinion.

Since you dont understand the concept of marifa and do not take the hadith I posted, I will provide another hadith:

ÑÓæáõ Çááåöþö (Õóáóøíó Çááåõ Úóáóíåö æó Âáöåö): ÞöæÇãõ ÇáãóÑÁö ÚóÞáõåõ ¡ æáÇ Ïöíäó áöãóä áÇ ÚóÞáó áóåõ.

1– The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘The very basis of man is his intellect, and the man devoid of intellect has no religion.’ [Rawdhat al-Wa`aizin, p. 9]

Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÕøÇÏÞõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): Åäóø Çááøåþó Ìáóø ËóäÇÄåõ ÎóáóÞó ÇáÚóÞáó¡ æåõæó Ãæóøáõ ÎóáÞò ÎóáóÞóåõ ãöäó ÇáÑõøæÍÇäíøíäó Úóä íóãíäö ÇáÚóÑÔö ãöä äæÑöåö.

11– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘Verily Allah, exalted be His praise, created the intellect, and it is the very first thing He created amongst all the spiritual beings from the right hand side of His Throne out of His Light.’[al-Khisal, p. 589, no. 13]

ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáÕøÇÏÞõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): ÇáÚóÞáõ Ïóáíáõ ÇáãõÄãöäö .

15– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘The intellect is the authoritative proof of the believer.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 25, no. 24]

ÇáÅãÇãõ ÇáßÇÙãõ (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ) Ü Ýí æóÕöíóøÊöåö áöåöÔÇãö Èäö ÇáÍóßóãö Ü: ãÇ ÈóÚóËó Çááøåþõ ÃäÈöíÇÁóåõ æÑõÓõáóåõ Åáì ÚöÈÇÏöåö ÅáøÇ áöíóÚÞöáæÇ Úóäö Çááøåþö ¡ ÝÃÍÓóäõåõãõ ÇÓÊöÌÇÈóÉð ÃÍÓóäõåõã ãóÚÑöÝóÉð ¡ æÃÚáóãõåõã ÈöÃãÑö Çááøåþö ÃÍÓóäõåõã ÚóÞáÇð ¡ æÃßãóáõåõã ÚóÞáÇð ÃÑÝóÚõåõã ÏóÑóÌóÉð Ýí ÇáÏøäíÇ æÇáÂÎöÑóÉö.

26– Imam al-Kazim (as) in his advice to Hisham b. al-Hakam, said, ‘Allah has only sent His prophets and messengers to His servants in order that they may come to an understanding of Allah, so the ones who best heed their call are those who have the best inner knowledge, and the ones who know Allah’ s command the best are those that have the best intellects, and those that have the most perfect intellects will be the ones with the highest status in this world and in the Hereafter.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 16, no. 12]

30Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ Úáíñø (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): ÇáÚóÞáõ ÍöÝÙõ ÇáÊóøÌÇÑöÈö ¡ æÎóíÑõ ãÇ ÌóÑóøÈÊó ãÇ æóÚóÙóßó .

30– Imam Ali (as) said, ‘[To be a man of] intellect is to preserve your experiences, and the best of all that you have experienced is that which has taught you a lesson.’[Nahj al-Balagha, Letter 31]

Ü ÇáÅãÇãõ Úáíñø (Úóáóíåö ÇáøÓóáÇãõ): ÇáÚóÞáõ ÚóÞáÇäö: ÚóÞáõ ÇáØóøÈÚö æÚóÞáõ ÇáÊóøÌÑöÈóÉö ¡ æßöáÇåõãÇ íõÄóÏøí ÇáãóäÝóÚóÉó .

31– Imam Ali (as) said, ‘There are two divisions of intellect the natural intellect and the intellect of experience, and both of them produce benefit.’[Masalib al-Sa’ ul, p. 49]

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Since you dont understand the concept of marifa and do not take the hadith I posted, I will provide another hadith:

رسولُ اللهِ‏ِ (صَلَّيَ اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ): قِوامُ المَرءِ عَقلُهُ ، ولا دِينَ لِمَن لا عَقلَ لَهُ.

1– The Prophet (SAWA) said, ‘The very basis of man is his intellect, and the man devoid of intellect has no religion.’ [Rawdhat al-Wa`aizin, p. 9]

ـ الإمامُ الصّادقُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): إنَّ اللّه‏َ جلَّ ثَناؤهُ خَلَقَ العَقلَ، وهُوَ أوَّلُ خَلقٍ خَلَقَهُ مِنَ الرُّوحانيّينَ عَن يَمينِ العَرشِ مِن نورِهِ.

11– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘Verily Allah, exalted be His praise, created the intellect, and it is the very first thing He created amongst all the spiritual beings from the right hand side of His Throne out of His Light.’[al-Khisal, p. 589, no. 13]

الإمامُ الصّادقُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): العَقلُ دَليلُ المُؤمِنِ .

15– Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, ‘The intellect is the authoritative proof of the believer.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 25, no. 24]

الإمامُ الكاظمُ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ) ـ في وَصِيَّتِهِ لِهِشامِ بنِ الحَكَمِ ـ: ما بَعَثَ اللّه‏ُ أنبِياءَهُ ورُسُلَهُ إلى عِبادِهِ إلّا لِيَعقِلوا عَنِ اللّه‏ِ ، فأحسَنُهُمُ استِجابَةً أحسَنُهُم مَعرِفَةً ، وأعلَمُهُم بِأمرِ اللّه‏ِ أحسَنُهُم عَقلاً ، وأكمَلُهُم عَقلاً أرفَعُهُم دَرَجَةً في الدّنيا والآخِرَةِ.

26– Imam al-Kazim (as) in his advice to Hisham b. al-Hakam, said, ‘Allah has only sent His prophets and messengers to His servants in order that they may come to an understanding of Allah, so the ones who best heed their call are those who have the best inner knowledge, and the ones who know Allah’ s command the best are those that have the best intellects, and those that have the most perfect intellects will be the ones with the highest status in this world and in the Hereafter.’[al-Kafi, v. 1, p. 16, no. 12]

30ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): العَقلُ حِفظُ التَّجارِبِ ، وخَيرُ ما جَرَّبتَ ما وَعَظَكَ .

30– Imam Ali (as) said, ‘[To be a man of] intellect is to preserve your experiences, and the best of all that you have experienced is that which has taught you a lesson.’[Nahj al-Balagha, Letter 31]

ـ الإمامُ عليٌّ (عَلَيهِ الّسَلامُ): العَقلُ عَقلانِ: عَقلُ الطَّبعِ وعَقلُ التَّجرِبَةِ ، وكِلاهُما يُؤَدّي المَنفَعَةَ .

31– Imam Ali (as) said, ‘There are two divisions of intellect the natural intellect and the intellect of experience, and both of them produce benefit.’[Masalib al-Sa’ ul, p. 49]

Irrelevant. What I asked was to provide a hadith which gives permission to use our logic/common sense etc to derive religious laws. Fact is there are none, on the other hand we have MANY which FORBID us to do so. I've already posted one of them. When I'm free I'll post more.

BTW, I didn't deny the hadith you posted. I clearly stated that the hadith isn't saying what you want it to say and is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Similarly these ahadith that you posted are also praising intellect, not telling us to use it to derive our own rulings. Fact of the matter is that there are none which say that but many which explicitly FORBID that, but seems like some people have made it a goal of their lives to continuously deny ahadith.

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Irrelevant. What I asked was to provide a hadith which gives permission to use our logic/common sense etc to derive religious laws. Fact is there are none, on the other hand we have MANY which FORBID us to do so. I've already posted one of them. When I'm free I'll post more.

BTW, I didn't deny the hadith you posted. I clearly stated that the hadith isn't saying what you want it to say and is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Similarly these ahadith that you posted are also praising intellect, not telling us to use it to derive our own rulings. Fact of the matter is that there are none which say that but many which explicitly FORBID that, but seems like some people have made it a goal of their lives to continuously deny ahadith.

(salam)

How did this thread transform from Facebook to Ahadeeth and logic i dont know? lol

Anyway, your running on stones again Bhooka ;) All religious laws are derived from logic! if there are things we cannot understand its because of our limited understanding and lack of Islamic knowledge!! Do you know anything about the brain and its creation? What you used above to make up your comment is logic, you utilised the nerve cells in your brain to come up with an answer to make the other party understand! That according to your hadeeth understanding is prohibited as you are utilising logic! We worship Allah (swt) by the brain, we tell the right from wrong by the brain, we study by the brain, we move by the brain, we see by the brain, our heart is controlled by the brain, our lungs are controlled by the brain, all nerve cells in out body are connected to the brain!...To the extent our actions are judged by the brain! Here are just one questions from an infinite amount of questions to think about and try to answer:

1) When we recite Surah Alfalaq, i.e "Qul hoa Allahu Ahad, Allahu Alsamad" How do we prove that Allah (swt) is one! the Quran states that Allah (swt) is One, prove it? Why cant there be two? How did Muslims come to a conclusion that Allah (swt) is One, utilising what subject?

In the book of Al-3ilal, the prophet of Islam Mohammad (saw) states regarding the brain that Allah (swt) made knowledge its soul!, Science is its spirit!, Asceticism is its head, Modesty is its eyes!, Wisdom is its tongue!, Pity is its concern!, and mercy is its Heart! Then Allah (swt) filled and powered the brain with 10 things! Certainty and faith, truth and calmness, sincerity and forbearance, tender and Sober, submission and thankfulness!... and so forth. Traditions also state that the Aql stayed kneeling to Allah (swt) for 1000 years! It was the first thing that Allah (swt) created way before prophet Adam (a.s).

This narration is studied in Hawza (Advanced Islamic Studies), the first lecture taught in the subject of Tawheed (Oneness of God) under the subject of Mantiq (logic).

Therefore we see the importance of Aql! Everything run on logic, Islam without logic is no different then Hindu? when you think! You are using logic, likewise when you reply with a comment you are subconsciously utilising logic!

If you need any help with understanding or require references and want to learn more about logic or the brain, id be happy to show you the path of reason. By the way reason is derived from logic as well. (i think il stop here)

(wasalam)

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Irrelevant. What I asked was to provide a hadith which gives permission to use our logic/common sense etc to derive religious laws. Fact is there are none, on the other hand we have MANY which FORBID us to do so. I've already posted one of them. When I'm free I'll post more.

According to Shaheed Mutahhari (from here: http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/default.asp?url=ijtihad-legislation.htm )

'Ijtihad' in the Shi'ah Tradition:

Until the fourth/tenth and the fifth/eleventh centuries we observe that whenever the word is used by a scholar it carries the sense of qiyas and ra'y. For instance, Shaykh Abu Ja'far al-Tusi (d. 460/1067), in his 'Uddat al-'usul, devotes a chapter to qiyas. He devotes another chapter to Ijtihad where he discusses one of the issues related to ijtihad, i.e. the problem of taswib and takhti'ah. The book has another chapter entitled "Did the Prophet practise ijtihad, and whether it was legitimate for him to practise it? Was it legitimate for the Companions of the Prophet to practise ijtihad when they were away from him or were in his presence?" Later, in the course of his discussion, he says: "This controversy is basically uncalled for according to our doctrines, because, as we have proved earlier, qiyas and ijtihad are absolutely impermissible in the Shari'ah. ''

This remark of al-Shaykh al-Tusi shows that until his age the word Ijtihad was still used in the sense of ra'y and qiyas.

'Ijtihad' lexically means 'putting in utmost effort' in doing something. In the earliest days, the term in accordance with the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (S) and the Companions, was taken to mean ijtihad bi al-ra'y, or putting in utmost effort in the exercise of ra'y and qiyas. However, gradually it took a wider meaning and came to mean putting in utmost effort in discovering the laws of the Shari'ah from its reliable sources. Thus we see that al-Ghazali (d. 505/1 111) in his al-Mustasfa - although he uses the word recurringly in its earlier sense of qiyas, for instance, when he says:

They have differed as to the permissibility of practising qiyas and ijtihad during the days of the Prophet ... (vol. 2, p. 354)

He also uses it in the general sense of scholarly effort on the part of a faqih

It (ijtihad) means putting in of the utmost effort in doing something. But the term has come to be used in the terminology of scholars specifically for the mujtahids putting in of the utmost effort in acquiring the knowledge of the laws of the Shariah. (vol. 2, p. 350)

From this time onwards we see that the term is used less frequently in the special sense of ra'y and qiyas and takes on the sense of scholarly effort in discovering the laws of the Shari'ah. With this change, the term found way into the Shi'ite fiqh also, for earlier the Shi'ah had opposed it on account of their opposition to Ijtihad bi al-ra'y, not because they were opposed to scholarly diligence. In any case, they did not resist its use after it changed its meaning. Probably the first to use this term among the Shi'ah Imamiyyah scholars was al-'Allamah al-Hilli (d. 726/1326), who accepting it used it in its second sense in his work Tahdhib al-'usul. In that work he devotes a chapter to Ijtihad and uses it in the sense current today. It seems that it was from this time that the Shi'ah accepted the word or the word embraced Shi'ism.

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(salam)

How did this thread transform from Facebook to Ahadeeth and logic i dont know? lol

Anyway, your running on stones again Bhooka ;) All religious laws are derived from logic! if there are things we cannot understand its because of our limited understanding and lack of Islamic knowledge!! Do you know anything about the brain and its creation? What you used above to make up your comment is logic, you utilised the nerve cells in your brain to come up with an answer to make the other party understand! That according to your hadeeth understanding is prohibited as you are utilising logic! We worship Allah (swt) by the brain, we tell the right from wrong by the brain, we study by the brain, we move by the brain, we see by the brain, our heart is controlled by the brain, our lungs are controlled by the brain, all nerve cells in out body are connected to the brain!...To the extent our actions are judged by the brain! Here are just one questions from an infinite amount of questions to think about and try to answer:

1) When we recite Surah Alfalaq, i.e "Qul hoa Allahu Ahad, Allahu Alsamad" How do we prove that Allah (swt) is one! the Quran states that Allah (swt) is One, prove it? Why cant there be two? How did Muslims come to a conclusion that Allah (swt) is One, utilising what subject?

In the book of Al-3ilal, the prophet of Islam Mohammad (saw) states regarding the brain that Allah (swt) made knowledge its soul!, Science is its spirit!, Asceticism is its head, Modesty is its eyes!, Wisdom is its tongue!, Pity is its concern!, and mercy is its Heart! Then Allah (swt) filled and powered the brain with 10 things! Certainty and faith, truth and calmness, sincerity and forbearance, tender and Sober, submission and thankfulness!... and so forth. Traditions also state that the Aql stayed kneeling to Allah (swt) for 1000 years! It was the first thing that Allah (swt) created way before prophet Adam (a.s).

This narration is studied in Hawza (Advanced Islamic Studies), the first lecture taught in the subject of Tawheed (Oneness of God) under the subject of Mantiq (logic).

Therefore we see the importance of Aql! Everything run on logic, Islam without logic is no different then Hindu? when you think! You are using logic, likewise when you reply with a comment you are subconsciously utilising logic!

If you need any help with understanding or require references and want to learn more about logic or the brain, id be happy to show you the path of reason. By the way reason is derived from logic as well. (i think il stop here)

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

Bro, it would be really helpful if you actually read and understand first what's being discussed before posting essays. Not just in this thread but in all threads in which you've posted irrelevant essays in reply to my posts. There's a reason why I've stopped replying to your posts.

Shukran.

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According to Shaheed Mutahhari (from here: http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/default.asp?url=ijtihad-legislation.htm )

'Ijtihad' in the Shi'ah Tradition:

Until the fourth/tenth and the fifth/eleventh centuries we observe that whenever the word is used by a scholar it carries the sense of qiyas and ra'y. For instance, Shaykh Abu Ja'far al-Tusi (d. 460/1067), in his 'Uddat al-'usul, devotes a chapter to qiyas. He devotes another chapter to Ijtihad where he discusses one of the issues related to ijtihad, i.e. the problem of taswib and takhti'ah. The book has another chapter entitled "Did the Prophet practise ijtihad, and whether it was legitimate for him to practise it? Was it legitimate for the Companions of the Prophet to practise ijtihad when they were away from him or were in his presence?" Later, in the course of his discussion, he says: "This controversy is basically uncalled for according to our doctrines, because, as we have proved earlier, qiyas and ijtihad are absolutely impermissible in the Shari'ah. ''

This remark of al-Shaykh al-Tusi shows that until his age the word Ijtihad was still used in the sense of ra'y and qiyas.

'Ijtihad' lexically means 'putting in utmost effort' in doing something. In the earliest days, the term in accordance with the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (S) and the Companions, was taken to mean ijtihad bi al-ra'y, or putting in utmost effort in the exercise of ra'y and qiyas. However, gradually it took a wider meaning and came to mean putting in utmost effort in discovering the laws of the Shari'ah from its reliable sources. Thus we see that al-Ghazali (d. 505/1 111) in his al-Mustasfa - although he uses the word recurringly in its earlier sense of qiyas, for instance, when he says:

They have differed as to the permissibility of practising qiyas and ijtihad during the days of the Prophet ... (vol. 2, p. 354)

He also uses it in the general sense of scholarly effort on the part of a faqih

It (ijtihad) means putting in of the utmost effort in doing something. But the term has come to be used in the terminology of scholars specifically for the mujtahids putting in of the utmost effort in acquiring the knowledge of the laws of the Shariah. (vol. 2, p. 350)

From this time onwards we see that the term is used less frequently in the special sense of ra'y and qiyas and takes on the sense of scholarly effort in discovering the laws of the Shari'ah. With this change, the term found way into the Shi'ite fiqh also, for earlier the Shi'ah had opposed it on account of their opposition to Ijtihad bi al-ra'y, not because they were opposed to scholarly diligence. In any case, they did not resist its use after it changed its meaning. Probably the first to use this term among the Shi'ah Imamiyyah scholars was al-'Allamah al-Hilli (d. 726/1326), who accepting it used it in its second sense in his work Tahdhib al-'usul. In that work he devotes a chapter to Ijtihad and uses it in the sense current today. It seems that it was from this time that the Shi'ah accepted the word or the word embraced Shi'ism.

(salam)

Thanks for the article. It conclusively proves that ijtehad was derived due to inspiration from deviant sunni-sufis such as Ghazali and that it appeared among shias much later(when the later scholar Allama Hilli accepted it) and that earlier shias had opposed it.

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Man la yahdhuruhul faqih:

æäåì Çä ÊÊßáã ÇáãÑÃÉ ÚäÏ ÛíÑ ÒæÌåÇ Çæ ÛíÑ Ðì ãÍÑã ãäåÇ ÇßËÑ ãä ÎãÓ ßáãÇÊ ããÇ áÇÈÏ áåÇ ãäå

Prophet(PBUH) said "............woman should not speak to any man other than her husband or mahram more than 5 sentences if she must speak to him.............."

Originally posted in post# 60, here:

http://www.shiachat....te/page__st__50

salaam.

brother, do you know if the same is said to us men? i remember reading a hadeeth like this a while back and i think it mentioned Fatimah (as) saying something like this, but i don't recall it saying it specifically about women. of course, i read the English translation, so please comment on this inshaAllah.

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(wasalam)

Bro, it would be really helpful if you actually read and understand first what's being discussed before posting essays. Not just in this thread but in all threads in which you've posted irrelevant essays in reply to my posts. There's a reason why I've stopped replying to your posts.

Shukran.

(salam)

3afwan, what Yabaqiatullah aj replied with the ahadeeth where all logical reasoning and ahadeeth regarding the use of intellect (brain), so what are you talking about exactly? Define: intellect? it means mind or brain, if some one is intellectual he is using his brain to utilise knowledge and provide logical reasoning! When you didnt understand the meaning of intellect i then went to explain further on, bringing logic a little closer to you. ;)

This is what you typed previously:

Irrelevant. What I asked was to provide a hadith which gives permission to use our logic/common sense etc to derive religious laws. Fact is there are none, on the other hand we have MANY which FORBID us to do so. I've already posted one of them. When I'm free I'll post more.

and he replied just like that, religion is built on logic > which is the foundations of the brain! and every religious law utilises logic? Il prove it! Bring me ONE religious law that goes against simple human logic in Shia Islam? (besides the things we cannot understand i.e Supernatural or spiritual reasonings).

(wasalam)

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(salam)

It is. Here's what you said:

As per ahadith (one of which I already posted), we're not allowed to handle religious issues with our imagination/guesswork (if this was so and so, do you think such and such would happen etc).

Of course she(as) didn't. But you can't do qiyas of that and apply it to facebook.

Salams,

It is strait logic, nothing else. If someone is your role model, that means that you imitate them. That is talked about extensively in the Quran, besides being talked about in Hadith.

What does the word 'tabi3an' mean then? It means to follow, i.e. to go wherever someone goes (the one you are following) and avoid going wherever they avoid going.

If Fatima Zahra(a.s) avoided unstructured, open-ended interactions with non-mahram, then if you are tabi3an to her, you should avoid them also.

It doesn't matter if it is on Facebook, by txt, chatting outside of the lecture hall, etc.

Even a 4 year old child is aware of this concept(of tab3an or following in order to imitate) . It seems that you are making it more complicated than it is.

It's also ironic that when I post ahadith(including from Bibi Fatima) showing that it's recommended for women to stay in the innermost corner of their home as well as it best being for women that no man ever sees her and nor does she ever see one; then fools start coming out of their holes saying "Fatima(as) used to gives speeches" (actually she(as) gave only one speech, that too from behind a curtain, and hopefully those with a functional brain would understand that she(as) was forced by extreme circumstances).

So what's it gonna be, did Bibi Fatima(as) used to go out regularly to give speeches and gain publicity (May Allah(swt)'s curse be on those liars who dare attribute such filth to the pure lady) or not?

Anyhow, as per hadith women shouldn't be taught how to write anyway (although I understand as per you it supposedly contradicts with "sahih and mutawatir" hadith) so if we act upon ahadith then this problem wouldn't even occur in the first place.

If that's all you'd said then there's nothing wrong in that.

I think you misunderstood the objection, at least my objection. My objection was to not teaching them, and specifically not teaching them Surat Yusuf. I can find that thread if you would like.

Also, the part about confining them to the innermost chambers of their house. If they are confined, then someone is confining them. Maybe the very 'confining' is not translated correct, but anyway the main point is that the Imams never encouraged us to 'confine' our wife(s) or not to teach them. What was forbidden and discouraged was immodesty and corruption. For example, women going out of their house with the intention to have unstructured interactions with non-mahram, to dress or present themselves in a way that is a concious attempt to attract the attention of non-mahram (like 98% of women do today, even most of our sisters unfortunately), or to engage in other type of activities that are clearly under the title of 'fahish', or indecency (those are the obvious ones that probably we wouldn't disagree about). This applies also to our brothers within the guidelines laid down by our Prophet(s.a.w.s) and Imams(a.s)

Fatima Zahra(a.s) did go in public and give speeches, and this doesn't contradict principles of modesty. You have to look at why she went out and gave speeches.

She went out only to educate those around her about Islamic issues, talk about the merits of her Father(s.a.w.s) and her Husband(a.s), to defend her rights (as in the case of her famous speech about the issue of Fadak), and to defend the rights of her husband when his rights were usurped from him. Her words are recorded and her intention is clear by her words. She never went out with the purpose of indecency, corruption, causing fitna (as some of the Prophet's wives did) or with the intention of mixing with non mahrams. So she never violated the Islamic principles of modesty, even in her public speeches and interactions so she is not liable for blame in any way, shape or form.

BTW, I am familiar with the statement about 'she sees no man and no man sees her...'. This is the ideal, but most of the time not possible. Even Fatima herself went out and men 'saw her', with her abaya of course. There is no contradiction, because it was not her will to go out and give speeches but circumstances forced her to do this in order to preserve the 'Haqq'.If Abu Bakr and Umar wouldn't have violated her rights by taking Fadak from her, she would have never went out and addressed the public concerning Fadak. If they wouldn't have stolen the rights from her Husband(a.s), she would have never had to go out to defend his rights. There are many women that would like to stay in their house, but they are forced thru circumstances to go out in public and interact. It is not haram for them to do that, and that is not what this ahadith is saying. It is saying that the ideal place for a women, then place where she is most safe, is away from non-mahram.

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Salams,

but anyway the main point is that the Imams never encouraged us to 'confine' our wife(s) .

(wasalam)

The Imams(as) as well as our giant scholars such as Shaikh Hurr al Amili highly recommended us to do so.

Wasail al shia

ـ باب استحباب حبس المرأة في بيتها أو بيت زوجها فلا

تخرج لغير حاجة ولا يدخل عليها أحد من الرجال

Chapter on desirability of imprisoning/locking up the woman in her home or home of her husband so not letting her out for without need and not letting anyone from the men enter upon her.

وفي ( العلل ) عن أبيه ، عن سعد ، عن محمد بن الحسين ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن غياث بن إبراهيم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : إن المرأة خلقت من الرجل وإنما همتها في الرجال ، فاحسبوا نساءكم ، وإن الرجل خلق من الارض فإنما همته في الارض

And in (al illal)* from his father, from Sa'ad, from Muhammad b. al Hussain, from Muhammad b. Yahya, from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim, from Abi Abdullah(as) said: Verily the women have been created from the man and are only bent/interested/focused in the men, so imprison/lock up your women, and verily the man has been created from the land so is only bent/interested in the land."

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/02/career-women-vs-hadith.html

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(salam)

Thanks for the article. It conclusively proves that ijtehad was derived due to inspiration from deviant sunni-sufis such as Ghazali and that it appeared among shias much later(when the later scholar Allama Hilli accepted it) and that earlier shias had opposed it.

(wasalam)

No, that's not what the article said at all. He was speaking about the word "ijtihad". I just posted it to specifically counter your claim that there are ahadith in which the Imams (as) forbid ijtihad. I wasn't trying to prove/disprove ijtihad in itself. Shaheed Mutahhari says that when they used the word ijtihad they meant the early Sunni concept of ijtihad (i.e. qiyas and ra'y). However the word ijitihad has evolved and is now used to mean the entire science of deriving contemporary fatwas based on the Quran and the ahadith. Allama Hilli is the first major scholar of the Shia to accept the new definition of ijtihad not the first to accept the concept of ijtihad. Read the whole article if you want to understand what ijtihad is.

Here al-Imam al-Sadiq (as) tells his companion to use ijtihad to differentiate between two hadiths:

In `Awali al‑la'ali (vol. IV, p. 133) a tradition is recorded from Zurarah ibn A'yan:

Zurarah says: "I said to Abu Ja'far, 'May I be your ransom, if two conflict­ing traditions are narrated from you which one of them are we to accept?' The Imam (A) said, `Take the one which is well‑known among your compan­ions (i.e. the Shi’is) and leave the one which is unfamiliar: I said, `What should we do if both of the traditions are equally well‑known?' The Imam (A) replied, `Take the one which seems more balanced (a’dal)and more reliable (awthaq)to you.' I said, `What if both of them are equally balanced, accept­able and reliable?' The Imam (A) said, `See which of them is in accordance with the standpoint of the `Ammah (i.e. non‑Shi`i Muslims); leave it, and take the opposite of what the `Amman hold, for the truth lies in that which contradicts them.' I said, `Sometimes we come across two traditions both of which are in agreement with the `Amman or both of them contradict with their standpoint; what are we to do in such cases?' The Imam‑(A) replied, `Select the tradition which is nearer to caution and leave the other one.' I said, `What is our duty if both the traditions are in accordance with caution or if both of them are opposed to it?' The Imam (A) replied, `In such a case, take anyone of the two and leave the other."

As well as:

The following tradition of Safinat al‑Bihar(vol. I, p.22) is an example:

Al‑'Imam al‑Sadiq (A) said: "Our duty is to teach you the principles and your duty is to ramify."

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salaam.

brother, do you know if the same is said to us men? i remember reading a hadeeth like this a while back and i think it mentioned Fatimah (as) saying something like this, but i don't recall it saying it specifically about women. of course, i read the English translation, so please comment on this inshaAllah.

(wasalam)

It's recommended for men also not to speak to women.

Man la yahdhuruhul faqih

íÇ Úáì: ËáÇË íÍÓä Ýíåä ÇáßÐÈ: ÇáãßíÏÉ Ýí ÇáÍÑÈ¡ æÚÏÊß ÒæÌÊß¡ æÇáÇÕáÇÍ Èíä ÇáäÇÓ¡ æËáÇËÉ ãÌÇáÓÊåã ÊãíÊ ÇáÞáÈ: ãÌÇáÓÉ ÇáÇäÐÇá æãÌÇáÓÉÇáÇÛäíÇÁ ¡ æÇáÍÏíË ãÚ ÇáäÓÇÁ

The Prophet(PBUH) advised Ali(AS) "O Ali(AS), on 3 occasions it's good to lie. In war, in making a promise to wife and resolving dispute between people. Also, the company of 3 types of people kills the heart. The lowly people, rich people and speaking with women."

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