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loverofBayt2

How Can Shias Say That Ali (ra) Is Ilaah?

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Why shias say that Ali (ra) was divine and had control of who enters Hell and paradise????

Ok brother, you seem to have these misconception, Imam Ali is regarded as the master of the faithfulls, Imam Ali (A.S) does not control who enters and exits paradise, who fallacied that wrong ideology to you? He is an infallible but does not have Godlike attributes (God forbid), you probably have mistaked us with Alawi people, you should ask them why they think what they think!!

Edited by sn00pking

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Ok brother, you seem to have these misconception, Imam Ali is regarded as the master of the faithfulls, Imam Ali (A.S) does not control who enters and exits paradise, who fallacied that wrong ideology to you? He is an infallible but does not have Godlike attributes (God forbid), you probably have mistaked us with Alawi people, you should ask them why they think what they think!!

So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Bring the related Ahadith and also their authentication from any renowned Shia Alim . Al-Kafi is almost 60% corrupted literature though it is named 'sufficient for fundamentals' of deen for Shia . ;)

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Ok I'll attempt to clarify your questions one by one,

Let's begin with the first question you opened this thread with, namely why do Shi'as elevate the status of Imam Ali (as) to that of Allah (SWT)? You elaborate by suggesting that due to the fact that Imam Ali (as) will be the one who will be the one who is the decisive factor between heaven and hell.

Perhaps brother, I could suggest that we don't always condemn a concept before trying to rationalise it and percieve how others understand it first. Certainly our role-model the Holy Prophet never argued for the sake of dispute, he discussed with people to guide.

If i might try and explain this to you in a more rational manner, we believe that Imam Ali (as) is in the position of the decreed successor of the Holy Prophet, a station distinct from Prophethood, yet none the less a station which requires acknowledgement, then just like the rejectors of Prophethood, they must take their seat in hellfire for rejecting knowingly this station.

As for individual cases, we do not make judgements, but the point here being, if we say that belief in Imam Ali (as)'s wasiyyah, is part of Islaam, and indeed we do, then naturally one who rejects him will be in fire.

2) Kafi is an important work, however like Sunan Tirmidhi, its not accepted by our 'Ulema of hadith as being 100% authentic.

3) Prostration to graves is not an agreed upon practice in tashayyu, in fact the vast majority of our Scholars are against it.

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and also why do shias call upon the dead

(salam)

If you are referring to our holy imams (a.s) then have you not heard the verse:

And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord; (3:169).

Do you beleive that the prophet (s) is greater than the shaheeds? thus he is also alive receiving sustenance from his lord,

why should it be shirk to call upon Allah (swt) through an intermediary such as the prophet (s), heard of tawasul?

wa salam

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Brother union answered the former, il answer the latter, actually have these questions been answered before in this forum? maybe we should have "Sticky" threads to lead people to these sections. Because i find these type of question commonly asked from our sunni brethren.

Ok back to topic, The fact is brother you are unaware of the concept of tawassul existing in the Sunni school, shall i say have not payed attention to it, il explain the concept of intercession within Islam from three perspective, beginning with the Quran > Logic > religion (Shia+Sunni)

You said that why we call upon the dead? my first logical analysis to you is: Who said they are Dead?! The Quran answers your question in an immaculate manner

(وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ)

In English: (Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.) Quran 3:169

Likewise, when we analyse this from a logical perspective we find that throughout history Allah (SWT) sent mankind holly books through intermediate form, hence when Allah (SWT) sent down the Tawrah, He used prophet Moses as the mediator, so what better way to reach Allah (SWT) then through prophet Moses?, when Allah (swt) sent down the Injil, He used prophet Jesus as a mediator, so what better way to reach Allah(SWT) then through prophet Jesus?? therefore when the Almight Allah (SWT) sent down the Qur'an he used the seal of the prophets, prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as the intercessor, so what better way to reach Allah (SWT) then through prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In this way we see that the Almighty Creator used mediators to reach us, why can’t we reach Allah (SWT) in the same manner?? Likewise lets analyse the concept of tawassul from a shia perspective with the dua we recite, we Shia have a dua called "Dua Altawassul" in which we say:

"اَللَّهُمَّ إِنِّيْ أَسْأَلُكَ وَ أَتَوَجه إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّكَ مُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ"

In English: "O Allah, I ask you and I turn my face to you through your prophet Mohammad, the prophet of mercy"

In this dua, we see that we are not asking forgiveness from the created! but from the creator!! Nevertheless lets analyse the concept of tawassul from the Sunni faith, il ask you a simple question, what is the dua you recite after finishing from Athan?! do you not recite:

(...الهم رب هذة الدعوة التامة والصلاة القائمة اتى سيدنا محمد الوسيلة والفضيلة)

Therefore we see that the Dua you recite you are specifically saying "Oh Allah provide prophet Mohammed (pbuh) intercession....) therefore mediation is not religious sector specific, but it exists within islam.

Does this make sense brother?

Wasalam.

EDIT: Ok, that was fast, other brothers have answered the OP :), hope its clear now..

Edited by sn00pking

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(salam)

Astagfirullah! Who is feeding you with all these lies? Ali(as) is not Allah swt. And no Shias believe Ali(as) is Allah swt.

(wasalam)

Ma'am, shouldn't you as admin ban this user or at least delete these frivolous threads where someone plucks statements from thin air and DOESN'T provide proofs to back them up. I can guarantee you this thread will also go upto 6-7 pages as usual even though the starting assumption(s) is/are not backed by authoritative proofs.

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(wasalam)

Ma'am, shouldn't you as admin ban this user or at least delete these frivolous threads where someone plucks statements from thin air and DOESN'T provide proofs to back them up. I can guarantee you this thread will also go upto 6-7 pages as usual even though the starting assumption(s) is/are not backed by authoritative proofs.

Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Edited by qalandar_1

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Akhi if you know something is clear kufr that the majority of Shias don't believe in then what's the point of trying to prove that they all believe in it or even trying to say that it's in their madhab?

How many Shias on this forum have you heard saying that?

How many maraj'i do you have have said that?

w/s

Edited by lotfilms

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Bring the related Ahadith and also their authentication from any renowned Shia Alim . Al-Kafi is almost 60% corrupted literature though it is named 'sufficient for fundamentals' of deen for Shia . ;)

i think he is talking about this hadith, but ask any shia to comment on its sanad's authenticity:

(باب ان الائمة هم أركان الارض)

hadith 1st:

أحمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن علي، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام)

Ahmad ibn Mahran from Muhammad ibn Ali and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad altogether from Muhammad ibn Sinan from al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.)

أنا قسيم الله بين الجنة والنار (3) وأنا الفاروق الاكبر وأنا صاحب العصا والميسم ولقد أقرت لي جميع الملائكة والروح والرسل بمثل ما أقروا به لمحمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) ولقد حملت على مثل حمولته (4) وهي حمولة الرب وإن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) يدعى فيكسى

.... Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) would very often say, "I am the supervisor for Allah over Paradise and Hell. No one would go either one without my supervision. I am the greatest criterion the possessor of the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). I am held responsible for all such matters that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) was held responsible.....

&

hadith 2nd:

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الوليد شباب الصيرفي قال: حدثنا سعيد الاعرج قال: دخلت أنا وسليمان بن خالد على أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام)

Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Walid Shabab al-Sayrafi who has said that Sa‘id’ al-A‘raj has said that he and Sulayman ibn Khalid once went to abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.):

وقال: قال أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام): أنا قسيم الله بين الجنة والنار، وأنا الفاروق الاكبر وأنا صاحب العصا والميسم، ولقد أقرت لي جميع الملائكة والروح بمثل ما أقرت لمحمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) ولقد حملت على مثل حمولة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) وهي حمولة الرب وإن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) يدعى فيكسى ويستنطق وادعى فاكسى واستنطق فأنطق على حد منطقه

...... Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) has said, "I am the supervisor for Allah over Paradise and Hell. No one would go either one without my supervision. I am the greatest criterion, the possessor of the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.)......

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-1/07.htm#07

Edited by ibn.askari

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Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

For god's sake dude, stop doing this. Although I'm young and healthy(alhamdulillah) but it seems like if I continue reading your posts I'll get high blood pressure. :!!!:

Yes, what you have written is 100% correct, but.......what you missed out was that this is not what Allama Baqir Majlisi said in Jila ul uyoon but it is what Syed Zuhoor ul Hasan Kauthar bin Syed Meher Ali Shah, some local zakir(probably from Multan) wrote in the muqadima of this urdu translation of Jila ul uyoon. Here, I'll post the end of this muqadimma:

zx6zag.png

Yes, unfortunately this rubbish "Ali is rab..." is quiet rampant in Pakistan. In fact in many areas it's considered the epitome of "maarifat". Here, amuse yourself(zakir saying sajda to taziya horse is good), see post#3:

Waiting to see how in a matter of minutes this thread will span 6 pages................................... :)

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Akhi if you know something is clear kufr that the majority of Shias don't believe in then what's the point of trying to prove that they all believe in it or even trying to say that it's in their madhab?

How many Shias on this forum have you heard saying that?

How many maraj'i do you have have said that?

w/s

(salam) brother, i do know that its not a mainstream shia belief,rather its a ghulaat/nuseyri belief but my point was that such narrations do exist in the shia literature.

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(salam) brother, i do know that its not a mainstream shia belief,rather its a ghulaat/nuseyri belief but my point was that such narrations do exist in the shia literature.

Ignoring my post for some reason. ;)

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