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loverofBayt2

How Can Shias Say That Ali (ra) Is Ilaah?

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Why shias say that Ali (ra) was divine and had control of who enters Hell and paradise????

Ok brother, you seem to have these misconception, Imam Ali is regarded as the master of the faithfulls, Imam Ali (A.S) does not control who enters and exits paradise, who fallacied that wrong ideology to you? He is an infallible but does not have Godlike attributes (God forbid), you probably have mistaked us with Alawi people, you should ask them why they think what they think!!

Edited by sn00pking

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Ok brother, you seem to have these misconception, Imam Ali is regarded as the master of the faithfulls, Imam Ali (A.S) does not control who enters and exits paradise, who fallacied that wrong ideology to you? He is an infallible but does not have Godlike attributes (God forbid), you probably have mistaked us with Alawi people, you should ask them why they think what they think!!

So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Bring the related Ahadith and also their authentication from any renowned Shia Alim . Al-Kafi is almost 60% corrupted literature though it is named 'sufficient for fundamentals' of deen for Shia . ;)

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Ok I'll attempt to clarify your questions one by one,

Let's begin with the first question you opened this thread with, namely why do Shi'as elevate the status of Imam Ali (as) to that of Allah (SWT)? You elaborate by suggesting that due to the fact that Imam Ali (as) will be the one who will be the one who is the decisive factor between heaven and hell.

Perhaps brother, I could suggest that we don't always condemn a concept before trying to rationalise it and percieve how others understand it first. Certainly our role-model the Holy Prophet never argued for the sake of dispute, he discussed with people to guide.

If i might try and explain this to you in a more rational manner, we believe that Imam Ali (as) is in the position of the decreed successor of the Holy Prophet, a station distinct from Prophethood, yet none the less a station which requires acknowledgement, then just like the rejectors of Prophethood, they must take their seat in hellfire for rejecting knowingly this station.

As for individual cases, we do not make judgements, but the point here being, if we say that belief in Imam Ali (as)'s wasiyyah, is part of Islaam, and indeed we do, then naturally one who rejects him will be in fire.

2) Kafi is an important work, however like Sunan Tirmidhi, its not accepted by our 'Ulema of hadith as being 100% authentic.

3) Prostration to graves is not an agreed upon practice in tashayyu, in fact the vast majority of our Scholars are against it.

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and also why do shias call upon the dead

(salam)

If you are referring to our holy imams (a.s) then have you not heard the verse:

And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord; (3:169).

Do you beleive that the prophet (s) is greater than the shaheeds? thus he is also alive receiving sustenance from his lord,

why should it be shirk to call upon Allah (swt) through an intermediary such as the prophet (s), heard of tawasul?

wa salam

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So this book (AL Kafi) isnt it a famous and great Shia Book?

and also why do shias call upon the dead for help and why do they prostrate to the dead? Is it not shirk???

Brother union answered the former, il answer the latter, actually have these questions been answered before in this forum? maybe we should have "Sticky" threads to lead people to these sections. Because i find these type of question commonly asked from our sunni brethren.

Ok back to topic, The fact is brother you are unaware of the concept of tawassul existing in the Sunni school, shall i say have not payed attention to it, il explain the concept of intercession within Islam from three perspective, beginning with the Quran > Logic > religion (Shia+Sunni)

You said that why we call upon the dead? my first logical analysis to you is: Who said they are Dead?! The Quran answers your question in an immaculate manner

(وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ)

In English: (Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provision.) Quran 3:169

Likewise, when we analyse this from a logical perspective we find that throughout history Allah (SWT) sent mankind holly books through intermediate form, hence when Allah (SWT) sent down the Tawrah, He used prophet Moses as the mediator, so what better way to reach Allah (SWT) then through prophet Moses?, when Allah (swt) sent down the Injil, He used prophet Jesus as a mediator, so what better way to reach Allah(SWT) then through prophet Jesus?? therefore when the Almight Allah (SWT) sent down the Qur'an he used the seal of the prophets, prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as the intercessor, so what better way to reach Allah (SWT) then through prophet Mohammad (pbuh)???

In this way we see that the Almighty Creator used mediators to reach us, why can’t we reach Allah (SWT) in the same manner?? Likewise lets analyse the concept of tawassul from a shia perspective with the dua we recite, we Shia have a dua called "Dua Altawassul" in which we say:

"اَللَّهُمَّ إِنِّيْ أَسْأَلُكَ وَ أَتَوَجه إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّكَ مُحَمَّدٍ نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ"

In English: "O Allah, I ask you and I turn my face to you through your prophet Mohammad, the prophet of mercy"

In this dua, we see that we are not asking forgiveness from the created! but from the creator!! Nevertheless lets analyse the concept of tawassul from the Sunni faith, il ask you a simple question, what is the dua you recite after finishing from Athan?! do you not recite:

(...الهم رب هذة الدعوة التامة والصلاة القائمة اتى سيدنا محمد الوسيلة والفضيلة)

Therefore we see that the Dua you recite you are specifically saying "Oh Allah provide prophet Mohammed (pbuh) intercession....) therefore mediation is not religious sector specific, but it exists within islam.

Does this make sense brother?

Wasalam.

EDIT: Ok, that was fast, other brothers have answered the OP :), hope its clear now..

Edited by sn00pking

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(salam)

Astagfirullah! Who is feeding you with all these lies? Ali(as) is not Allah swt. And no Shias believe Ali(as) is Allah swt.

(wasalam)

Ma'am, shouldn't you as admin ban this user or at least delete these frivolous threads where someone plucks statements from thin air and DOESN'T provide proofs to back them up. I can guarantee you this thread will also go upto 6-7 pages as usual even though the starting assumption(s) is/are not backed by authoritative proofs.

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(wasalam)

Ma'am, shouldn't you as admin ban this user or at least delete these frivolous threads where someone plucks statements from thin air and DOESN'T provide proofs to back them up. I can guarantee you this thread will also go upto 6-7 pages as usual even though the starting assumption(s) is/are not backed by authoritative proofs.

Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Edited by qalandar_1

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Akhi if you know something is clear kufr that the majority of Shias don't believe in then what's the point of trying to prove that they all believe in it or even trying to say that it's in their madhab?

How many Shias on this forum have you heard saying that?

How many maraj'i do you have have said that?

w/s

Edited by lotfilms

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Bring the related Ahadith and also their authentication from any renowned Shia Alim . Al-Kafi is almost 60% corrupted literature though it is named 'sufficient for fundamentals' of deen for Shia . ;)

i think he is talking about this hadith, but ask any shia to comment on its sanad's authenticity:

(باب ان الائمة هم أركان الارض)

hadith 1st:

أحمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن علي، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام)

Ahmad ibn Mahran from Muhammad ibn Ali and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad altogether from Muhammad ibn Sinan from al-Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.)

أنا قسيم الله بين الجنة والنار (3) وأنا الفاروق الاكبر وأنا صاحب العصا والميسم ولقد أقرت لي جميع الملائكة والروح والرسل بمثل ما أقروا به لمحمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) ولقد حملت على مثل حمولته (4) وهي حمولة الرب وإن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) يدعى فيكسى

.... Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) would very often say, "I am the supervisor for Allah over Paradise and Hell. No one would go either one without my supervision. I am the greatest criterion the possessor of the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). I am held responsible for all such matters that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.) was held responsible.....

&

hadith 2nd:

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الوليد شباب الصيرفي قال: حدثنا سعيد الاعرج قال: دخلت أنا وسليمان بن خالد على أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام)

Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Walid Shabab al-Sayrafi who has said that Sa‘id’ al-A‘raj has said that he and Sulayman ibn Khalid once went to abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.):

وقال: قال أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام): أنا قسيم الله بين الجنة والنار، وأنا الفاروق الاكبر وأنا صاحب العصا والميسم، ولقد أقرت لي جميع الملائكة والروح بمثل ما أقرت لمحمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) ولقد حملت على مثل حمولة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) وهي حمولة الرب وإن محمدا (صلى الله عليه وآله) يدعى فيكسى ويستنطق وادعى فاكسى واستنطق فأنطق على حد منطقه

...... Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) has said, "I am the supervisor for Allah over Paradise and Hell. No one would go either one without my supervision. I am the greatest criterion, the possessor of the staff and the (marking) seal Miysam All the angels and the spirit have acknowledged the existence in me of all the matters that they had acknowledge in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.)......

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-1/07.htm#07

Edited by ibn.askari

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Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

For god's sake dude, stop doing this. Although I'm young and healthy(alhamdulillah) but it seems like if I continue reading your posts I'll get high blood pressure. :!!!:

Yes, what you have written is 100% correct, but.......what you missed out was that this is not what Allama Baqir Majlisi said in Jila ul uyoon but it is what Syed Zuhoor ul Hasan Kauthar bin Syed Meher Ali Shah, some local zakir(probably from Multan) wrote in the muqadima of this urdu translation of Jila ul uyoon. Here, I'll post the end of this muqadimma:

zx6zag.png

Yes, unfortunately this rubbish "Ali is rab..." is quiet rampant in Pakistan. In fact in many areas it's considered the epitome of "maarifat". Here, amuse yourself(zakir saying sajda to taziya horse is good), see post#3:

Waiting to see how in a matter of minutes this thread will span 6 pages................................... :)

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Akhi if you know something is clear kufr that the majority of Shias don't believe in then what's the point of trying to prove that they all believe in it or even trying to say that it's in their madhab?

How many Shias on this forum have you heard saying that?

How many maraj'i do you have have said that?

w/s

(salam) brother, i do know that its not a mainstream shia belief,rather its a ghulaat/nuseyri belief but my point was that such narrations do exist in the shia literature.

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(salam) brother, i do know that its not a mainstream shia belief,rather its a ghulaat/nuseyri belief but my point was that such narrations do exist in the shia literature.

Ignoring my post for some reason. ;)

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Why shias say that Ali (ra) was divine and had control of who enters Hell and paradise????

1) It is our belief that our 12 Imams are Divine Authorities (of Allah).

2) We do have ahadith mentioning that Imam Ali will be the 'distributer' of Paradise and Hell. They don't suggest that He a.s will be the one making decision whether we go to paradise or hell. They rather suggest him to be sort of an 'executioner' i-e He will be there for his friends deserving paradise and He will be there to kick the enemies of Islam in Hell. Sometimes it appears that those narrations are metaphorical because those who oppose him will no doubt go to hell and those who follow him are the true followers of Allah and the Prophet P.b.u.H. At other times it appears (from those narrations) that He will literally be there accompanying his followers or throwing the wrongdoers in hell. Allah knows best. By the way, I do remember reading similar narrations in some sunni books too.

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Ignoring my post for some reason. ;)

naah sorry i read your post late. I agree with you on the point that "ali rab" (maazAllah) is a paki phenomenon and this concept is prevalent among the nuseyri/ghulat/sufi type of people.They call themselves shias.A few people like Jan ali shah kazmi are vocal against them but they are too few and i have heard many shia guys calling Jan ali shah kazmi " A wahabi in disguise". Would you agree with me on two things?

1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

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@bhooka_bhariya .A few years ago when i was in pakistan,on the demand of a friend,i visited Sehwan (sindh) and there i had the chance of a meeting with Imran liaqat Hussain. He claims to an "Ayathullah" and have settled besides the shrine of Lal shehbaz.I did not take him serious as his beliefs were nuseyri and he had a weird explanation of wahdat-ul-wajood ( of which even Muhy ud din Ibn Arabi himself might have never thought). I just cant get onething that if these so called shias dont belong to shiasm, why dont the shia scholars do an open takfeer of him? Why dont the shias remove such weak narrations from their scriptures on which these people establish their reasoning? I think , till the day texts like " Ali Allah az azal Guftam" exist, such confusions will keep on prevailing.

watch the people doing sajda to him and listen him castigating the religion as a whole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyJaDARpHc

Edited by qalandar_1

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1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

1. Thats like saying the vast majority of America is Muslim ( except for like 20%), honestly dont create statistics off the top of your head, Its highly offensive.

2. Once again your wrongly using "Majority", If you dont live there please refrain from formulating lies about the region. I demand an apology.

3. Video above, alims do speak out against these kind of people, the absence of a you tube clip against these actions doesn't mean that their ways are never criticized or deemed haram, they themselves choose not to listen.

Edited by pakistanyar

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1. Thats like saying the vast majority of America is Muslim ( except for like 20%), honestly dont create statistics off the top of your head, Its highly offensive.

2. Once again your wrongly using "Majority", If you dont live there please refrain from formulating lies about the region. I demand an apology.

1. thats why i said "like 20 %", i may be wrong but it cant be more than 40 % iam sure.

2. Would you name any 5 mainstream paki zakirs to whom an Imami shia would like to listen?

3.Any evidence of a direct fatwa against such people will be appreciated

p.s, wish you good luck for your research on the scholarly work of the deputies of Mahdi.

Edited by qalandar_1

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@bhooka_bhariya .A few years ago when i was in pakistan,on the demand of a friend,i visited Sehwan (sindh) and there i had the chance of a meeting with Imran liaqat Hussain. He claims to an "Ayathullah" and have settled besides the shrine of Lal shehbaz.I did not take him serious as his beliefs were nuseyri and he had a weird explanation of wahdat-ul-wajood ( of which even Muhy ud din Ibn Arabi himself might have never thought). I just cant get onething that if these so called shias dont belong to shiasm, why dont the shia scholars do an open takfeer of him? Why dont the shias remove such weak narrations from their scriptures on which these people establish their reasoning? I think , till the day texts like " Ali Allah az azal Guftam" exist, such confusions will keep on prevailing.

watch the people doing sajda to him and listen him castigating the religion as a whole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyJaDARpHc

Most probably you won't like the answer, but the fact remains that such explicit ghali texts have sufi origins and are just not found in authoritative shi'ite sources. As per shias sufis are considered dangerous deviants. Read my posts regarding this, here:

Also read post#3(which I made from my deactivated account), here:

As for sufis, although I heard you claiming on another thread that the likes of ibn arabi are shia and went on to post some irrelevant videos and some equally irrelevant views of modern "scholars", again the fact remains that in subcontinent the majority is of sunnis who are either brelvi or deobandi. Both are sufi inclined but with different methodologies. Unfortunately many of the deviant shia beliefs you come across is actually sunni rubbish propagated by the brelvis. Shias tend to befriend the brelvis as per the saying "the enemy of my enemy(in this case the wahabies) is my friend". Although I know you salafies brand the brelvis as shias, but the fact is that brelvis consider themselves to be The Sunnis. They don't consider anyone else as sunni.

Another source of deviant beliefs is the concepts borrowed from shaykhis. See post#20 for details, here:

As for making takfeer on deviant zakirs. There are many issues with this. The well known scholars from Iraq/Iran aren't aware about each indo/pak zakirs, and the local ulema of Pak know that shias are a minority and making takfir will create further problems. Another very important reason is that the traditional shias(akhbaris such as me) don't believe in giving fatwas but only quoting ahadith. So such scholars will refute the deviants by writing books and quoting ahadith, but won't make takfir on the individual.

.A few people like Jan ali shah kazmi are vocal against them but they are too few and i have heard many shia guys calling Jan ali shah kazmi " A wahabi in disguise".

Actually that's what people call me as well :!!!:

I am surprised at how so few learned people on this forum stand up to this Salafi infiltrator.

As someone previously said, you're quite the extremist Salafi.

BTW, I'm not a fan of Jan Kazmi either. He's very anti akhbari and doesn't seem to know the difference between malangs and akhbaris.

Would you agree with me on two things?

1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

1) Can't answer with a yes or no here. Ghalis and nusehris are kafirs and saying X % is ghali/nusehri invloves making takfir and I already stated my views about making fatwa. All I can say is that there's a HUGE problem. Also, many people are just ignorants. It's a bit unfair to make takfir on such ignorant laymen.

2) Yes, the zakirs are a big problem.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya

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(salam)

أحمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن علي، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام

Muhammed ibn Sinan is a known liar, and is one of the biggest fabricators of hadiths in our books. From ibn al-Ghada'iri's kitab:

( 23 ) – 15 – مُحَمَّدُ بن سِنان، أبُو جَعْفَر، الهَمْدانيّ، مولاهم – هذا أصحّ ما يَنْتَسِبُ‏(47) إليه -. ضَعِيْفٌ، غالٍ، يَضَعُ (الحديثَ)(48) لا يُلْتَفَتُ إليه.(49)

15 – Muhammad b. Sinan, Abu Ja`far, al-Hamdani, their client – this is the most correct of what he is related to -. Weak, ghal, fabricates (hadith), he is not turned to.

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الوليد شباب الصيرفي قال: حدثنا سعيد الاعرج قال: دخلت أنا وسليمان بن خالد على أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام

Sahl ibn Ziyad is another famous fabricator, who was kicked out of Qum.

( 11 ) – 11 – سَهْلُ بنُ زِياد، أبُو سَعيد، الآدَميُّ، الرازيُّ. كانَ ضَعيفاً جِدّاً، فاسِدَ الرِوايةِ والدِينِ.(23) وكانَ أَحْمَدُ بنُ مُحَمَّد بن عِيْسى‏ الأشعريُّ أخْرَجَهُ من قُم، وأظْهَرَ البَراءَةَ منهُ، ونَهَى الناسَ عن السماع منهُ والرِواية عنهُ. ويَروِي المَراسِيْلَ، ويَعْتَمِدُ المَجاهِيْلَ.(24)

11 – Sahl b. Ziyad, Abu Sa`id, al-Adami, ar-Razi. He was very weak, corrupt in narration and religion. Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa al-Ash`ari exiled him from Qum, declared bara’at from him, and forbade the people from listening to him and narrating from him. He narrates mursal narrations and depends (on them).

http://www.*******.org/rijal/kitab-ad-duafa-of-ibn-al-ghadairi

--

If you're going to throw our ahadith at us that we obviously disagree with, at least have the decency to make sure that these two and other major fabricators are not in the isnaad.

Edited by Qa'im

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Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Here in quran word 'rab' is used for king in verse 12:41,42,50 and word 'rasool' is used for representative of king in verse 12:50

فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا

12:41 he shall give his lord to drink wine

وَقَالَ لِلَّذِي ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ نَاجٍ مِنْهُمَا اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِي السِّجْنِ بِضْعَ سِنِينَ {42}

[12:42] And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.

وَقَالَ الْمَلِكُ ائْتُونِي بِهِ ۖ فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُ الرَّسُولُ قَالَ ارْجِعْ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ فَاسْأَلْهُ مَا بَالُ النِّسْوَةِ اللَّاتِي قَطَّعْنَ أَيْدِيَهُنَّ ۚ إِنَّ رَبِّي بِكَيْدِهِنَّ عَلِيمٌ {50}

[12:50] And the king said: Bring him to me. So when the messenger came to him, he said: Go back to your lord and ask him, what is the case of the women who cut their hands; surely my Lord knows their guile.

Edited by elite

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(salam)

i know u shias all practice Taqiyyah...so dont try to fool me whatsoever...make ur beliefs clear and Allah is all knowing

We don't worship `Ali (as). The worship of anyone besides Allah is an act of shirk and kufr, and those who worship `Ali are the enemies of `Ali and his Shi`a. I'm giving you reference from our very own sources:

[ 34891 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : أتى قوم أمير المؤمنين ( عليه الصلاة والسلام ) فقالوا : السلام عليك يا ربنا ! فاستتابهم ، فلم يتوبوا ، فحفر لهم حفيرة وأوقد فيها نارا وحفر حفيرة إلى جانبها اخرى وأفضى بينهما فلما لم يتوبوا ألقاهم في الحفيرة وأوقد في الحفيرة الاخرى حتى ماتوا .

وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عميرمثله .

ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن علي بن إبراهيم .

أقول : حمله الشيخ على المرتد عن ملة ، لما مر .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: A group came to Amir al-Mumineen عليه السلام, and they said: Peace be upon you, O our Lord! So he sought their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a pit for them and lit a fire in it and dug a pit to its other side and conveyed between them (i.e. joined the two pits to one another). So when they did not repent he threw them in the pit and lit (the fire) in the other pit until they died.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr likewise.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from `Ali b. Ibrahim.

I say: The Shaykh interpreted it to (refer) to the apostate from the milla (i.e. one who converts to Islam, then apostates), for what has passed (earlier in Wasa’il).

--

And like you said: Allah is watching. Don't make such a powerful false charge against fellow Muslims. You will only endanger yourself on Judgment day brother.

Edited by Qa'im

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the Extremely jaahil wants to ask a question to all shias. How can u say that Abu Bakr is Kafir? Quran calls him "Sahib" Comapion-of rasulullah (sallallahu alayhu wasallam)...astaghfirullah! plz dont ignore my question because this has become common amongst shias when i ask them

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 8: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion (in Islam)."

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the Extremely jaahil wants to ask a question to all shias. How can u say that Abu Bakr is Kafir? Quran calls him "Sahib" Comapion-of rasulullah (sallallahu alayhu wasallam)...astaghfirullah! plz dont ignore my question because this has become common amongst shias when i ask them

(salam)

firstly the definition of sahib in the quran does not necessarily mean that person is loyal,

-But those who disbelieve and deny Our Signs are the Companions of the Fire, remaining in it timelessly, for ever. (2:39)

-The Companions of the Left: how wretched are the Companions of the Left? (56:9)

-(Yusuf said,) 'My companions of the prison, are many lords better, or Allah, the only One, the Conqueror?' (12:39)

-His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him: "Dost thou deny Him Who created thee out of dust then out of a

sperm-drop, then fashioned thee into a man? (18:37). (This verse shows a debate between a believer speaking to his companion who is a disbeliever.)

verse 9:40 where abubaker is mentioned as being a companion can you show me where in this verse Allah (swt) praises him for being with him?

secondly stick to the topic, be patient and calm.

wa salam

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what about the hadith i quoted there?

Shia's Dont believe in Sunni Hadiths likewise when Muslims Dont believe in the Bible, so it's no proof to the shia's

regarding your Question

the Answer is No, Shia's dont beleive Ali (as) to be illah Astagfurallah. it's just one of many misconceptions regarding the school

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