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loverofBayt2

How Can Shias Say That Ali (ra) Is Ilaah?

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Why shias say that Ali (ra) was divine and had control of who enters Hell and paradise????

1) It is our belief that our 12 Imams are Divine Authorities (of Allah).

2) We do have ahadith mentioning that Imam Ali will be the 'distributer' of Paradise and Hell. They don't suggest that He a.s will be the one making decision whether we go to paradise or hell. They rather suggest him to be sort of an 'executioner' i-e He will be there for his friends deserving paradise and He will be there to kick the enemies of Islam in Hell. Sometimes it appears that those narrations are metaphorical because those who oppose him will no doubt go to hell and those who follow him are the true followers of Allah and the Prophet P.b.u.H. At other times it appears (from those narrations) that He will literally be there accompanying his followers or throwing the wrongdoers in hell. Allah knows best. By the way, I do remember reading similar narrations in some sunni books too.

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Ignoring my post for some reason. ;)

naah sorry i read your post late. I agree with you on the point that "ali rab" (maazAllah) is a paki phenomenon and this concept is prevalent among the nuseyri/ghulat/sufi type of people.They call themselves shias.A few people like Jan ali shah kazmi are vocal against them but they are too few and i have heard many shia guys calling Jan ali shah kazmi " A wahabi in disguise". Would you agree with me on two things?

1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

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@bhooka_bhariya .A few years ago when i was in pakistan,on the demand of a friend,i visited Sehwan (sindh) and there i had the chance of a meeting with Imran liaqat Hussain. He claims to an "Ayathullah" and have settled besides the shrine of Lal shehbaz.I did not take him serious as his beliefs were nuseyri and he had a weird explanation of wahdat-ul-wajood ( of which even Muhy ud din Ibn Arabi himself might have never thought). I just cant get onething that if these so called shias dont belong to shiasm, why dont the shia scholars do an open takfeer of him? Why dont the shias remove such weak narrations from their scriptures on which these people establish their reasoning? I think , till the day texts like " Ali Allah az azal Guftam" exist, such confusions will keep on prevailing.

watch the people doing sajda to him and listen him castigating the religion as a whole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyJaDARpHc

Edited by qalandar_1

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1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

1. Thats like saying the vast majority of America is Muslim ( except for like 20%), honestly dont create statistics off the top of your head, Its highly offensive.

2. Once again your wrongly using "Majority", If you dont live there please refrain from formulating lies about the region. I demand an apology.

3. Video above, alims do speak out against these kind of people, the absence of a you tube clip against these actions doesn't mean that their ways are never criticized or deemed haram, they themselves choose not to listen.

Edited by pakistanyar

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1. Thats like saying the vast majority of America is Muslim ( except for like 20%), honestly dont create statistics off the top of your head, Its highly offensive.

2. Once again your wrongly using "Majority", If you dont live there please refrain from formulating lies about the region. I demand an apology.

1. thats why i said "like 20 %", i may be wrong but it cant be more than 40 % iam sure.

2. Would you name any 5 mainstream paki zakirs to whom an Imami shia would like to listen?

3.Any evidence of a direct fatwa against such people will be appreciated

p.s, wish you good luck for your research on the scholarly work of the deputies of Mahdi.

Edited by qalandar_1

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@bhooka_bhariya .A few years ago when i was in pakistan,on the demand of a friend,i visited Sehwan (sindh) and there i had the chance of a meeting with Imran liaqat Hussain. He claims to an "Ayathullah" and have settled besides the shrine of Lal shehbaz.I did not take him serious as his beliefs were nuseyri and he had a weird explanation of wahdat-ul-wajood ( of which even Muhy ud din Ibn Arabi himself might have never thought). I just cant get onething that if these so called shias dont belong to shiasm, why dont the shia scholars do an open takfeer of him? Why dont the shias remove such weak narrations from their scriptures on which these people establish their reasoning? I think , till the day texts like " Ali Allah az azal Guftam" exist, such confusions will keep on prevailing.

watch the people doing sajda to him and listen him castigating the religion as a whole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTyJaDARpHc

Most probably you won't like the answer, but the fact remains that such explicit ghali texts have sufi origins and are just not found in authoritative shi'ite sources. As per shias sufis are considered dangerous deviants. Read my posts regarding this, here:

Also read post#3(which I made from my deactivated account), here:

As for sufis, although I heard you claiming on another thread that the likes of ibn arabi are shia and went on to post some irrelevant videos and some equally irrelevant views of modern "scholars", again the fact remains that in subcontinent the majority is of sunnis who are either brelvi or deobandi. Both are sufi inclined but with different methodologies. Unfortunately many of the deviant shia beliefs you come across is actually sunni rubbish propagated by the brelvis. Shias tend to befriend the brelvis as per the saying "the enemy of my enemy(in this case the wahabies) is my friend". Although I know you salafies brand the brelvis as shias, but the fact is that brelvis consider themselves to be The Sunnis. They don't consider anyone else as sunni.

Another source of deviant beliefs is the concepts borrowed from shaykhis. See post#20 for details, here:

As for making takfeer on deviant zakirs. There are many issues with this. The well known scholars from Iraq/Iran aren't aware about each indo/pak zakirs, and the local ulema of Pak know that shias are a minority and making takfir will create further problems. Another very important reason is that the traditional shias(akhbaris such as me) don't believe in giving fatwas but only quoting ahadith. So such scholars will refute the deviants by writing books and quoting ahadith, but won't make takfir on the individual.

.A few people like Jan ali shah kazmi are vocal against them but they are too few and i have heard many shia guys calling Jan ali shah kazmi " A wahabi in disguise".

Actually that's what people call me as well :!!!:

I am surprised at how so few learned people on this forum stand up to this Salafi infiltrator.

As someone previously said, you're quite the extremist Salafi.

BTW, I'm not a fan of Jan Kazmi either. He's very anti akhbari and doesn't seem to know the difference between malangs and akhbaris.

Would you agree with me on two things?

1. Vast majority of the paki shia is nuseyri/ghulat? (except for like 20 %)

2.Majority of shia zakireen in this region have injected such beliefs in the minds of these "shias" which are in contradiction with the Imami school of thought?

1) Can't answer with a yes or no here. Ghalis and nusehris are kafirs and saying X % is ghali/nusehri invloves making takfir and I already stated my views about making fatwa. All I can say is that there's a HUGE problem. Also, many people are just ignorants. It's a bit unfair to make takfir on such ignorant laymen.

2) Yes, the zakirs are a big problem.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya

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(salam)

أحمد بن مهران، عن محمد بن علي، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل بن عمر، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام

Muhammed ibn Sinan is a known liar, and is one of the biggest fabricators of hadiths in our books. From ibn al-Ghada'iri's kitab:

( 23 ) – 15 – مُحَمَّدُ بن سِنان، أبُو جَعْفَر، الهَمْدانيّ، مولاهم – هذا أصحّ ما يَنْتَسِبُ‏(47) إليه -. ضَعِيْفٌ، غالٍ، يَضَعُ (الحديثَ)(48) لا يُلْتَفَتُ إليه.(49)

15 – Muhammad b. Sinan, Abu Ja`far, al-Hamdani, their client – this is the most correct of what he is related to -. Weak, ghal, fabricates (hadith), he is not turned to.

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الوليد شباب الصيرفي قال: حدثنا سعيد الاعرج قال: دخلت أنا وسليمان بن خالد على أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام

Sahl ibn Ziyad is another famous fabricator, who was kicked out of Qum.

( 11 ) – 11 – سَهْلُ بنُ زِياد، أبُو سَعيد، الآدَميُّ، الرازيُّ. كانَ ضَعيفاً جِدّاً، فاسِدَ الرِوايةِ والدِينِ.(23) وكانَ أَحْمَدُ بنُ مُحَمَّد بن عِيْسى‏ الأشعريُّ أخْرَجَهُ من قُم، وأظْهَرَ البَراءَةَ منهُ، ونَهَى الناسَ عن السماع منهُ والرِواية عنهُ. ويَروِي المَراسِيْلَ، ويَعْتَمِدُ المَجاهِيْلَ.(24)

11 – Sahl b. Ziyad, Abu Sa`id, al-Adami, ar-Razi. He was very weak, corrupt in narration and religion. Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa al-Ash`ari exiled him from Qum, declared bara’at from him, and forbade the people from listening to him and narrating from him. He narrates mursal narrations and depends (on them).

http://www.*******.org/rijal/kitab-ad-duafa-of-ibn-al-ghadairi

--

If you're going to throw our ahadith at us that we obviously disagree with, at least have the decency to make sure that these two and other major fabricators are not in the isnaad.

Edited by Qa'im

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Here is an "authorative proof"

A scanned page from Jalaul 'ayun by Mullah Baqir majlisi

167011_141415635916383_100001438419023_224608_8384415_n.jpg

word to word translation > "The Rab which is adressed in Quran is Saqi e kothar Ali as.The prophets have preached oneness of the creator and whenever there were ant catastrophes from their Allah,they (Prophets) have called their Rab (Ali as) for help".

Here in quran word 'rab' is used for king in verse 12:41,42,50 and word 'rasool' is used for representative of king in verse 12:50

فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا

12:41 he shall give his lord to drink wine

وَقَالَ لِلَّذِي ظَنَّ أَنَّهُ نَاجٍ مِنْهُمَا اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ فَلَبِثَ فِي السِّجْنِ بِضْعَ سِنِينَ {42}

[12:42] And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.

وَقَالَ الْمَلِكُ ائْتُونِي بِهِ ۖ فَلَمَّا جَاءَهُ الرَّسُولُ قَالَ ارْجِعْ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ فَاسْأَلْهُ مَا بَالُ النِّسْوَةِ اللَّاتِي قَطَّعْنَ أَيْدِيَهُنَّ ۚ إِنَّ رَبِّي بِكَيْدِهِنَّ عَلِيمٌ {50}

[12:50] And the king said: Bring him to me. So when the messenger came to him, he said: Go back to your lord and ask him, what is the case of the women who cut their hands; surely my Lord knows their guile.

Edited by elite

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(salam)

i know u shias all practice Taqiyyah...so dont try to fool me whatsoever...make ur beliefs clear and Allah is all knowing

We don't worship `Ali (as). The worship of anyone besides Allah is an act of shirk and kufr, and those who worship `Ali are the enemies of `Ali and his Shi`a. I'm giving you reference from our very own sources:

[ 34891 ] 1 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : أتى قوم أمير المؤمنين ( عليه الصلاة والسلام ) فقالوا : السلام عليك يا ربنا ! فاستتابهم ، فلم يتوبوا ، فحفر لهم حفيرة وأوقد فيها نارا وحفر حفيرة إلى جانبها اخرى وأفضى بينهما فلما لم يتوبوا ألقاهم في الحفيرة وأوقد في الحفيرة الاخرى حتى ماتوا .

وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عميرمثله .

ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن علي بن إبراهيم .

أقول : حمله الشيخ على المرتد عن ملة ، لما مر .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: A group came to Amir al-Mumineen عليه السلام, and they said: Peace be upon you, O our Lord! So he sought their repentance, but they did not repent. So he dug a pit for them and lit a fire in it and dug a pit to its other side and conveyed between them (i.e. joined the two pits to one another). So when they did not repent he threw them in the pit and lit (the fire) in the other pit until they died.

And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr likewise.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from `Ali b. Ibrahim.

I say: The Shaykh interpreted it to (refer) to the apostate from the milla (i.e. one who converts to Islam, then apostates), for what has passed (earlier in Wasa’il).

--

And like you said: Allah is watching. Don't make such a powerful false charge against fellow Muslims. You will only endanger yourself on Judgment day brother.

Edited by Qa'im

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