Following Different Marjas

[_JuGNii]

Well.. i was reading this post the other day where they were talking about halal and haram music and one person said how playing a piano or something from one marja said its halal and haram and it "depends" on which marja you follow..!

If we follow the SAME RELIGION how can different marjas have DIFFERENT rules?! and how do you know which one to follow.. say like so you would follow one who allows something you want to do.. wouldnt that mean you're following Islam for your benefits?!

A new person coming towards Islam - Shia'ism.. how would he know which marja to follow?! Shouldn't all rules in Shia'ism be the same since its ONE RELIGION.. and not one marja allows this and the other marja doesnt allow it?!

If you get wat i mean..! :unsure:

[Haji 2003]

If we follow the SAME RELIGION how can different marjas have DIFFERENT rules?! and how do you know which one to follow.. say like so you would follow one who allows something you want to do.. wouldnt that mean you're following Islam for your benefits?!

Because rules will always be a matter of interpretation, you have noticed that these boards do have some discussion about interpretation haven't you? And you'll have variations regardless of whether you have private individuals doing it or scholars. That said the major mar'je tend to be very similar in their rulings.

[_JuGNii]

Ahan okay.. interpretation.. hmm.. cant they settle on one so it stops confusion and it can settle as all ONE rule.. but agen how can it be different interpretations when its One islam.. One qur'an ?!

[-Enlightened]

If we follow the SAME RELIGION how can different marjas have DIFFERENT rules?!

(bismillah)

(salam)

Sister,I always wondered the same thing ,and never got the answer. :unsure: One of these marjaas must be wrong,they can't all be right ! ..so you have to judge by your own sometimes ,if following a marjaa is really worth it. The Holy quran and the 14 infallibles are not here for nothing.

(wasalam)

Edited January 1, 2011 by enlight_warner

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Ahan okay.. interpretation.. hmm.. cant they settle on one so it stops confusion and it can settle as all ONE rule.. but agen how can it be different interpretations when its One islam.. One qur'an ?!

No need to get in the confusion of following marja/mujtahid etc. Just read post#126 here:

Also read post#38 here:

Reading those posts will clear your doubts about the non issue of following marja.

As for ghina(music/singing), it's just plain haram, ahdith don't make distinction of halal/haram music:

Man la yahdhuruhul faqih:

æÞÇá ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: (ÎãÓÉ ãä ÎãÓÉ ãÍÇá: ÇáÍÑãÉ ãä ÇáÝÇÓÞ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáÔÝÞÉ ãä ÇáÚÏæ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáäÕíÍå ãä ÇáÍÇÓÏ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáæÝÇÁ ãä ÇáãÑÃÉ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáåíÈÉ ãä ÇáÝÞíÑ ãÍÇá).

æÇáÛäÇÁ ããÇ Ãæ ÚÏÇááå ÚÒæÌá Úáíå ÇáäÇÑ æåæ Þæáå ÚÒæÌá: (æãä ÇáäÇÓ ãä íÔÊÑì áåæ ÇáÍÏíË áíÖá Úä ÓÈíá Çááå ÈÛíÑ Úáã æíÊÎÐåÇ åÒæÇ ÇæáÆß áåã ÚÐÇÈ ãåíä).

æÓÆá ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã (Úä Þæá Çááå ÚÒæÌá: (ÝÇÌÊäÈæÇ ÇáÑÌÓ ãä ÇáÇæËÇä æÇÌÊäÈæÇ Þæá ÇáÒæÑ) ÞÇá: ÇáÑÌÓ ãä ÇáÇæËÇä ÇáÔØÑäÌ¡ æÞæá ÇáÒæÑ ÇáÛäÇÁ)

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/?mod=hadith&start=180&end=190

Uyun al akhbar:

ÍóÏøóËóäÇ ÃóÍúãóÏõ Èúäõ ÒöíÇÏö Èúäö ÌóÚúÝóÑò ÇáúåóãóÐÇäíø ÑóÖöìó Çááåõ Úóäúåõ ÞÇáó: ÍóÏøóËóäÇ Úóáöìøõ Èúäõ ÅöÈÑÇåöíãö Èúäö åÇÔöãò ÞÇáó: ÍóÏøóËóäÇ ÇáÑøóíÇäõ Èúäõ ÇáÕøóáúÊö ÞÇáó: ÓóÃóáúÊõ ÇáÑøöÖóÇ Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓøóáÇãõ íóæúãÇð ÈöÎõÑóÇÓóÇäó ÝóÞõáúÊõ íóÇ ÓóíøöÏöí Åöäøó åöÔóÇãó Èúäó ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó ÇáúÚóÈøóÇÓöíøó Íóßóì Úóäúßó Ãóäøóßó ÑóÎøóÕúÊó áóåõ Ýöí ÇÓúÊöóãÇÚö ÇáúÛöäóÇÁö ÝóÞóÇáó ßóÐóÈó ÇáÒøöäúÏöíÞõ ÅöäøóãóÇ ÓóÃóáóäöí Úóäú Ðóáößó ÝóÞõáúÊõ áóåõ Åöäøó ÑóÌõáÇð ÓóÃóáó ÃóÈóÇ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓøóáÇãõ Úóäú Ðóáößó ÝóÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓøóáÇãõ ÅöÐóÇ ãóíøóÒó Çááøóåõ Èóíúäó ÇáúÍóÞøö æóÇáúÈóÇØöáö ÝóÃóíúäó íóßõæäõ ÇáúÛöäóÇÁõ ÝóÞóÇáó ãóÚó ÇáúÈóÇØöáö ÝóÞóÇáó áóåõ ÃóÈõæ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓøóáÇãõ ÞóÏú ÞóÖóíúÊó.

[_JuGNii]

(wasalam)

Alhmdollilah yes.. the Qur'an and the Ahl-e-bait (as) are the best teachers.. but i was jus wondering yu kno lyk.. if its same how do u kno wats right and wats rong..? they all provide proof etc etc then wat do u do? Some ppl might not convert due to this reason.. that they dont know which side to go..! MAYBE tht is.. jus a thought.. but hmmm.. :unsure:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Sister,I always wondered the same thing ,and never got the answer. :unsure: One of these marjaas must be wrong,they can't all be right ! ..so you have to judge by your own sometimes ,if following a marjaa is really worth it. The Holy quran and the 14 infallibles are not here for nothing.

(wasalam)

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

U r right. There are many interpretations when there is No sureity.

Imam sadiq asws said: Momineen would have same views even if they are far away from each other.

Imam Ali a.s said: if there are two opposite statements; then one has to be wrong or both have to be wrong however both can't be correct.

Keep Reading books yourself and when u are satisfied U go ahead but what would u do. If u study too much u will become a marja urself.

Imam Ali a.s said: an ignorant cannot recognise the knowledgeable but the knowleadgeable can recognise the ignorant because he himself has gone through the stage of ignorance.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited January 1, 2011 by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

[_JuGNii]

The point aint music here.. i was jus tlkin bout the different rules etc of marjas and all.. but thnx newayz..

bak to point.. so the one who memorizes the 40 hadiths is raised as an alim.. so ne1 can do it n become one?! can u explain a lil prprly in easy words ... wud b much appreciated.. coz i dont wanna misinterpret wat anyone says... and use easy language :unsure:

No need to get in the confusion of following marja/mujtahid etc. Just read post#126 here:

Also read post#38 here:

Reading those posts will clear your doubts about the non issue of following marja.

As for ghina(music/singing), it's just plain haram, ahdith don't make distinction of halal/haram music:

Man la yahdhuruhul faqih:

æÞÇá ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: (ÎãÓÉ ãä ÎãÓÉ ãÍÇá: ÇáÍÑãÉ ãä ÇáÝÇÓÞ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáÔÝÞÉ ãä ÇáÚÏæ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáäÕíÍå ãä ÇáÍÇÓÏ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáæÝÇÁ ãä ÇáãÑÃÉ ãÍÇá¡ æÇáåíÈÉ ãä ÇáÝÞíÑ ãÍÇá).

æÇáÛäÇÁ ããÇ Ãæ ÚÏÇááå ÚÒæÌá Úáíå ÇáäÇÑ æåæ Þæáå ÚÒæÌá: (æãä ÇáäÇÓ ãä íÔÊÑì áåæ ÇáÍÏíË áíÖá Úä ÓÈíá Çááå ÈÛíÑ Úáã æíÊÎÐåÇ åÒæÇ ÇæáÆß áåã ÚÐÇÈ ãåíä).

æÓÆá ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã (Úä Þæá Çááå ÚÒæÌá: (ÝÇÌÊäÈæÇ ÇáÑÌÓ ãä ÇáÇæËÇä æÇÌÊäÈæÇ Þæá ÇáÒæÑ) ÞÇá: ÇáÑÌÓ ãä ÇáÇæËÇä ÇáÔØÑäÌ¡ æÞæá ÇáÒæÑ ÇáÛäÇÁ)

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/?mod=hadith&start=180&end=190

Uyun al akhbar:

ÍóÏóøËóäÇ ÃóÍúãóÏõ Èúäõ ÒöíÇÏö Èúäö ÌóÚúÝóÑò ÇáúåóãóÐÇäíø ÑóÖöìó Çááåõ Úóäúåõ ÞÇáó: ÍóÏóøËóäÇ Úóáöìõø Èúäõ ÅöÈÑÇåöíãö Èúäö åÇÔöãò ÞÇáó: ÍóÏóøËóäÇ ÇáÑóøíÇäõ Èúäõ ÇáÕóøáúÊö ÞÇáó: ÓóÃóáúÊõ ÇáÑöøÖóÇ Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓóøáÇãõ íóæúãÇð ÈöÎõÑóÇÓóÇäó ÝóÞõáúÊõ íóÇ ÓóíöøÏöí Åöäóø åöÔóÇãó Èúäó ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó ÇáúÚóÈóøÇÓöíóø Íóßóì Úóäúßó Ãóäóøßó ÑóÎóøÕúÊó áóåõ Ýöí ÇÓúÊóöãÇÚö ÇáúÛöäóÇÁö ÝóÞóÇáó ßóÐóÈó ÇáÒöøäúÏöíÞõ ÅöäóøãóÇ ÓóÃóáóäöí Úóäú Ðóáößó ÝóÞõáúÊõ áóåõ Åöäóø ÑóÌõáÇð ÓóÃóáó ÃóÈóÇ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓóøáÇãõ Úóäú Ðóáößó ÝóÞóÇáó ÃóÈõæ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓóøáÇãõ ÅöÐóÇ ãóíóøÒó Çááóøåõ Èóíúäó ÇáúÍóÞöø æóÇáúÈóÇØöáö ÝóÃóíúäó íóßõæäõ ÇáúÛöäóÇÁõ ÝóÞóÇáó ãóÚó ÇáúÈóÇØöáö ÝóÞóÇáó áóåõ ÃóÈõæ ÌóÚúÝóÑò Úóáóíúåö ÇáÓóøáÇãõ ÞóÏú ÞóÖóíúÊó.

ahan Thankyu... i mean m not very knowledgable and dont read much.. but i try takin the main points to get an overall picture and i dont think i'll ever become a marja.. but InshAllah will keep lernin mre hopefully in further future.. so hmmm one has to be rong one has to be right.. both provide proofs and give explaination to wat thy r saying.. it gets complicated n all.. i mite aswell not get into all tht and stick to the hadiths of Nabi (pbuh) and Ahl-e-bait (as).. atleast ur sure on that they are correct! :unsure:

U r right. There are many interpretations when there is No sureity.

Imam sadiq asws said: Momineen would have same views even if they are far away from each other.

Imam Ali a.s said: if there are two opposite statements; then one has to be wrong or both have to be wrong however both can't be correct.

Keep Reading books yourself and when u are satisfied U go ahead but what would u do. If u study too much u will become a marja urself.

Imam Ali a.s said: an ignorant cannot recognise the knowledgeable but the knowleadgeable can recognise the ignorant because he himself has gone through the stage of ignorance.

Ya Ali Madad

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Bro/sis

those 40 ahadis are in al khisaal. If u memorise it, practice it and help others educate it then u will be raised as alim.

And imam sadiq or imam baqir said: one who knows 500 fadail of moula Ali from quran is a mujtahid.

Ya Ali Madad

[_JuGNii]

Ahan haala.. i will have to look at the difference between them.. thnku :)

Bro/sis

those 40 ahadis are in al khisaal. If u memorise it, practice it and help others educate it then u will be raised as alim.

And imam sadiq or imam baqir said: one who knows 500 fadail of moula Ali from quran is a mujtahid.

Ya Ali Madad

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Many people have confusion regarding following marja/mujtahid. I've already posted some ahadith defing the meanings of aalim, faqih and mujtahid. I'll post one more hadith defining who's a mujtahid:

Amali Shaikh Sadooq:

Imam(AS) said whoever recites in a night 10 ayaat his name won't be listed among the heedless ones, one who recites 50 ayaats he would be listed among the zaakirs, the one who recites 100 ayaat would be listed among the aabids, the one who recites 200 ayaats would be listed among the khasi'een, one who recites 300 ayaat would be listed among the successful ones and the one who recites 500 ayaat would be listed among the mujtahids, one who recites 1000 ayaat for him there would be a qintaar of gold which would be between heavens and earth.

ÍÜÏËäÇ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä (ÑÍãå Çááøå ), ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÇáÍÓä Èä ÇÈÇä , Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ, Úä ÇáäÖÑ Èä ÓæíÏ, Úä íÍíì ÇáÍáÈí , Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÑæÇä , Úä ÓÚÏ Èä ØÑíÝ , Úä ÇÈí ÌÜÚÜÝÑ ÇáÈÇÞÑ, Úä ÇÈíå , Úä ÌÏå (Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ), ÞÇá :ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááøå (Õáì Çááøå Úáíå æÂáå ): ãä ÞÑÇ ÚÔÑ ÂíÇÊ Ýí áíáÉ áã íßÊÈ ãä ÇáÛÇÝáíä , æãä ÞÑÇ ÎãÓíä ÂíÉ ßÊÈ ãä ÇáÐÇßÑíä , æãä ÞÑÇ ãÇÆÉ ÂíÉ ßÊÈ ãä ÇáÞÇäÊíä , æãä ÞÑÇ ãÇÆÊí ÂíÉ ßÊÈ ãä ÇáÎÇÔÚíä , æãä ÞÑÇ ËáÇËãÇÆÉ ÂíÉ ßÊÈ ãä ÇáÝÇÆÒíä , æãÜä ÞÜÑÇ ÎãÓãÇÆãÉ ÂíÉ ßÊÈ ãä ÇáãÌÊåÏíä , æãä ÞÑÇ ÇáÝ ÂíÉ ßÊÈ áå ÞäØÇÑ, æÇáÞäØÇÑ ÎãÓæä ÇáÜÝ ãÜËÜÞÇá ÐåÈ , æÇáãËÞÇá ÇÑÈÚÉ æÚÔÑæä ÞíÑÇØÇ, ÇÕÛÑåÇ ãËá ÌÈá ÇÍÏ, æÇßÈÑåÇ ãÇÈíä ÇáÓãÇ æÇáÇÑÖ

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/?mod=hadith&start=10&end=20

Therefore it's proven beyond doubt that there's no need to go to hawza and become ayatullah, hujjatul islam etc and the current system of marja/taqlid etc has no basis in imami shiism as per our ahadith.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Bro bhooka bhai,

can u pull up that hadees about Ilm being a noor and how it is inserted in to ones heart and what u need to learn is morals. It's in tuhaf ul uqool sayings of imam reza a.s.

As medicines will not help if ur stomach is not clean. So clean ur inner and outerself and ask Allah azwj for ilm Behaqqe 14 masoomeen asws and inshallah He will expand ur chest for Islam.

Ya Ali Madad

[kaali_daal]

Amali Shaikh Sadooq:

Imam(AS) said whoever recites in a night 10 ayaat his name won't be listed among the heedless ones, one who recites 50 ayaats he would be listed among the zaakirs, the one who recites 100 ayaat would be listed among the aabids, the one who recites 200 ayaats would be listed among the khasi'een, one who recites 300 ayaat would be listed among the successful ones and the one who recites 500 ayaat would be listed among the mujtahids, one who recites 1000 ayaat for him there would be a qintaar of gold which would be between heavens and earth.

That Hadith is a metaphorical one Brother.

How can you apply it in the literal sense?

The Hadith above only highlights significance of recitation of the Quran.

Imam Ali (as) said: An ignorant cannot recognize the knowledgeable but the knowledgeable can recognize the ignorant because he himself has gone through the stage of ignorance.

As per Imam Ali(AS)'s saying, tell me how you can prove to me that you are more knowledge than an Ayatullah?

[Amir-Husayn]

The key to unlocking this dilemma is to understand the difference between religion as such, which is Divine, eternal and flawless, and religious knowledge which is human, evolving, and fallible. To quote Dr. Soroush:

"It is true that sacred scriptures are (in the judgement of the followers) flawless; however, it is just as true that human beings' understanding of religion is flawed. Religion is sacred and heavenly, but the understanding of religion is human and earthly... It must be understood that religious knowledge is not the personal knowledge of a single individual but a branch of human knowledge that has a collective and dynamic identity and that remains viable through the constant exchange, cooperation, and competition of scholars. As such, religious knowledge is replete with error, conjecture, and conviction."

I don't want to belabor this point, but if you are interested you can look up the article Islamic Rebival and Reform as well as the book The Expansion and Contraction of Religious Knowkedge.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

As for ghina(music/singing), it's just plain haram, ahdith don't make distinction of halal/haram music:

Is the hadith 'sahih', i.e. does it pass the rules set for the science of hadith (conform to the qur'an, doesn't contradict other 'sahih' hadith, the chain of narrators are historically confirmed to have integrity?)

Also, is 'ghina' today what it was 1400 years ago?

Also, what is the definition of 'ghina'? Does the definition of ghina include musical instruments or human vocal singing only? Is listening to this for example, considered haram? ->

???

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Bro bhooka bhai,

can u pull up that hadees about Ilm being a noor and how it is inserted in to ones heart and what u need to learn is morals. It's in tuhaf ul uqool sayings of imam reza a.s.

As medicines will not help if ur stomach is not clean. So clean ur inner and outerself and ask Allah azwj for ilm Behaqqe 14 masoomeen asws and inshallah He will expand ur chest for Islam.

Ya Ali Madad

I think you have the wrong reference. The hadith I found in tuhaf ul uqul from Imam Redha(AS) about knowledge and morals is this:

Imam(AS) said: Aql is provided by Allah(SWT) whereas morals/etiquette are obtained through effort. Therefore whoever puts effort to gain morals will gain them and he who puts effort to gain aql will only increase ignorance.

æÞÇá Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã áÇÈí åÇÔã ÇáÌÚÝÑí: íÇ ÃÈÇ åÇÔã ÇáÚÞá ÍÈÇÁ ãä Çááå¡ æÇáÇÏÈ ßáÝÉ¡ Ýãä ÊßáÝ ÇáÇÏÈ ÞÏÑ Úáíå æãä ÊßáÝ ÇáÚÞá áã íÒÏÏ ÈÐáß ÅáÇ ÌåáÇ

There's a very long hadith from Imam al Sadiq(AS) about ilm being a noor provided by Allah(SWT). I'll post it insh'Allah when I'm free.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Is the hadith 'sahih', i.e. does it pass the rules set for the science of hadith (conform to the qur'an, doesn't contradict other 'sahih' hadith, the chain of narrators are historically confirmed to have integrity?)

Also, is 'ghina' today what it was 1400 years ago?

Also, what is the definition of 'ghina'? Does the definition of ghina include musical instruments or human vocal singing only? Is listening to this for example, considered haram? ->

???

2 of the ahadith I presented were from man la yahdhuruhul faqih, the book which Shaikh Saduq (ra) wrote to help laymen and he included in it those ahadith by which he gives fatawa. The other hadith was from uyun al akhbar(also by Shaikh Saduq) and as you'll notice in Shaikh Saduq's works, if there's something odd about a hadith, he tends to clarify it. For example in his ilal ul sharai there's a hadith about it being OK if someone blows into his food plate while eating alone. Even for such trivial matter, Shaikh Saduq tends to provide clarification and says(I'm not quoting exactly word to word) "this hadith is shadh and I say whether one's eating alone or not it is still makrooh". Whereas in this case(hadith about music) he doesn't provide any extra clarification/explanation thereby indicating that it's to be taken as it is. I'm not aware of any hadith contradicting these hadith and these ahadith definitely do not contradict the Qur'an, in fact in the ahadith the Imam(AS) himself quotes ayaat to prove the hurmat of ghina. As far as their sanad etc is concerned, I'd made another post(on another topic) about this issue. Read post#18 here:

Lastly, ghina includes singing, music etc everything. Our ahadith explicitly forbid ghina and unlike sunni fuqaha who are short on ahadith(since they left the rope of ahlulbayt) have resorted to qiyas and tend to make provisions for "pure arab" musical instruments such as traditional drum etc, ruling that other foreign/persian instruments only are haram. I don't see how ghina's definition may have changed today. Ghina is haram, and labelling something as "nasheed" etc doesn't automatically make it halal. Of course there may be some exceptions but generally all songs, nasheed, nauha, marsiya etc are haram. In fact our fuqaha agree that even if Qur'an is recited in a singing manner then it's listening is haram. In fact, you may be interested in reading "The art of reciting the Qur'an" by Nelson,K. It's a research on reciters/qaris and speaks about the type of training that famous egyptian Qaris undergo, which includes being trained by musicians as well. In fact in Pakistan also famous qaris do undertake training form classical singers as well. So one has to be careful about listening to things. Just cuz someones "praising god" doesn't make it(ghina) halal.

BTW, the video you posted sounded like any other singing/music video to me.

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Bro bhooka bhai,

can u pull up that hadees about Ilm being a noor and how it is inserted in to ones heart and what u need to learn is morals. It's in tuhaf ul uqool sayings of imam reza a.s.

As medicines will not help if ur stomach is not clean. So clean ur inner and outerself and ask Allah azwj for ilm Behaqqe 14 masoomeen asws and inshallah He will expand ur chest for Islam.

Ya Ali Madad

Alhamdulillah, found it. A very long hadith, I'll only post the relevant section:

Bihar ul Anwar:

Imam al Sadiq(AS) advised Unwan Basri(a maliki scholar) "...........ilm doesn't come from education, it's a noor which is placed in the heart of whom Allah(SWT) wishes to give hidaya. Thus, if you seek ilm then search for the haqiqa of ibada within your nafs and seek ilm by utilizing that and ask Allah(SWT) to grant you understanding............................"

فقال : يا أبا عبدالله ليس العلم بالتعلم ، إنما هو نور يقع في قلب من يريد الله تبارك وتعالى أن يهديه ، فإن أردت العلم فاطلب أولا في نفسك حقيقة العبودية ، واطلب العلم باستعماله ، واستفهم الله يفهمك

Ayatullah Wahid Khurasani (ra) has also included this hadith in his book about usul al din.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Bhooka_Bhairiya

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

That Hadith is a metaphorical one Brother.

How can you apply it in the literal sense?

The Hadith above only highlights significance of recitation of the Quran.

Imam Ali (as) said: An ignorant cannot recognize the knowledgeable but the knowledgeable can recognize the ignorant because he himself has gone through the stage of ignorance.

As per Imam Ali(AS)'s saying, tell me how you can prove to me that you are more knowledge than an Ayatullah?

good question. If someone quotes from imam a.s's knowledge and if any alim's knowledge is against imam's saying then he is regarded as ignorant. Because the imam is the judge.

See for e.g the thread of khums.

And bro bhooka bheriya

Thanks for the hadis from imam sadiq a.s however there is another one in the sayings of imam reza a.s at the end of that chapter.

Sorry I was not on my computer.

Ya Ali Madad

Edited January 2, 2011 by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

[Orion]

(bismillah)

DIFFERENCE OF FATWAS AMONG SCHOLARS

It should be said that most fatwa differences are due to differences in Hadith. But any such differences is hardly ever such as to be contradictory. It is almost impossible to find a case of one Mujtahid saying some action is Wajib and another saying it is Haram.

Let us ponder briefly over the reasons behind fatwa differences.

1- Conflicting Hadith due to different conditions of the questioner.

Imam gave different orders to two different companions.

Example:

He told one follower that the meat of a rabbit can be eaten since he lived in an area where not eating rabbit was considered a sign of being Shia and his life could be in danger.

He told the other follower that the meat of rabbit cannot be eaten, since he lived among Shia.

If these commands were given at different times and in front of different set of people naturally they would convey them differently to others. If today these hadith are read by someone he will get confused. Scholars have to dig in to the conditions under which a command was give and understand which to apply today.

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2- Difference in understanding the reason behind a command.

Example:

Prophet (SAW) was sitting. The funeral of a kafir passed bye. Prophet (SAWW) stood up.

-Some rawayat tell us that Prophet stood up due to the respect of angels accompanying the coffin. So following these rawayat it would be even better to to stand when the funeral of a Momin passes bye.

-Other rawayat tell us that Prophet stood up since it was disrespectful for the coffin of a kaffir to pass above the head of Muslims.

Naturally this reason will reflect in a totally different way of practice.

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3- Words have different meanings.

The command was given with one meaning but it was understood with another meaning.

Example:

Hazrat Salman e Farsi said to the Prophet (pbuh) that he has read in Torah that "Waduh" after meals is a cause for blessing. Prophet replied that Waduh before and after meals is a cause for blessing.

Here the word "Waduh" is meant as washing hands. But some have taken it in the literal sense.

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4- Difference in understanding the meaning of a hadith.

Same way as verses of poetry may have different meaning.

There is a verse in urdu:

Ïã 黄 äÀ ŠªÑÿ Ïá ãیä äÀ Çä˜ªæŸ ãیä Çی˜ á

ÇÊäÿ Óÿ ÞÏ À Êã Ȫی ÞیÇãÊ ÔÑیÑ ªæ

Translation:

"for second you did not stay in the heart, nor in my eyes

Such an small size and you are so naughty!"

Some say poet is talking about an imaginary lover (a short girl)!

While others say its about the tear. When one's heart is full, tears come out but don't stay in the eyes for long and start flowing.

Similarly some Fuqha take one meaning of a hadith while others take another.

Example:

Masoom said: "Jummah does not establish if there is no Imam"

Some said Imam here means Imam e Masoom . Therefore it is haram to offer Jummah prayers during occultation.

Others said Imam here means Imam e Jammat (the prayer leader). Meaning that Imam (as) wanted to say that Jummah prayers cannot be offered individually, it has to be offered with congregation (jammat).

Example:

Prophet (SAWW) said: "Love of Ali eats away sins like fire eats away dry wood".

The literal meaning is that if a lover of Imam Ali commits sin, love of Ali (as) would finish the sin.

But some have taken the meaning that if the love of Ali fills someones heart than a Momin will not commit sin. All his sins would finish. He would not even think of sinning.

Example:

Hadith: "Paradise is under Mother's feet",

Some say hadith is directed towards children. If they take good care of their mother, make her happy, their rewarded would be paradise.

Other say its for the mother. If she trains them well, she could make them among the people of paradise.

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5-Hadith going against each other.

Example:

In Furu al-Kafi there is a hadith from Zarar ibn Ain according to which Imam Baqar (as) said: "Without doubt, Jummah bath is wajib".

Another hadith from Masoom says: If someone is unable to perform Jummah bath, the Jummah bath will remain due on him. He could postpone it till Saturday.

And another hadith: If you dont have water for Jummah baith, bring it after buying (purchase it).

All these hadith give the impression that Jummah Ghusl (bath) is obligatory.

But also in Furu al-Kafi there is a hadith again from Zarar ibn Ain according to which Masoom (as) listed Sunnat baths. And Jummah bath is included in that list.

So as you can see according to one hadith from the same Sahabi, ghusal of Jummah is wajib and according to another its sunnat.

Yet another hadith from Shaikh Sadooq (aleh rehama) in Khasal it was asked Maula what is the difference b/w the prayers of men and women. Imam (as) listed many differences. One of them was that for men Ghusl e Jummah is mustahab.

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6-Hadith quoted in terms of meaning and not exact words.

Some hadith were quoted in terms of meaning and not their exact words. Since different people understood hadith differently they stated it differently.

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7- Many references could result in differences.

It is a common observation that if one message is conveyed through several messengers their could occur differences in the conveyed message.

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8-Mistakes in hadith due to human errors or forgetfulness.

Narrators of hadith were human beings.

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9-Loss of Hadith books.

We currently have 4 large books of hadith, namely:

- Asool al-Kafi,

- Tahzeeb al-Ahkam anal Masail al-Halal wal Haram,

- Istabsar fi mukhtalf min al akhbar

- Kitab al Faqih lemin la yahjar al faqih

During the time of Shaikh Sadooq (AR) there was a 5th book "Madinat al-Ilm" comprising of 12 volumes. And was considered the largest book on Ilm al Hadith. This book is no longer available.

Naturally scholars who had this book in front of them gave fatwas. But scholars toady don't have this book resulting in difference of fatwas.

Similarly Imam as-Sadiq (as) had ordered the writing of 400 books on Principals. Not all of them are available with us today. Therefore scholars who got those hadith have different fatwas than those who don't.

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10-Non-reliable narrators.

Hadith are graded according to the reliability of narrators. Scholars accept or reject hadith based on their grading and may differ in which hadith to accept and which not. This is a detailed subject and I will not go into details at this point.

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11-Fabricated hadith.

People used to fabricate hadith due to their post, belief or affiliation. Others did it to please the Ruler or King of their time.

Example:

One person Abdul Karim ibn Abi al Aujah was hanged during the time of Khalifa Mehdi. While being hanged he confessed to fabricating 4000 hadith where he had made halal things haram and haram things halal!

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12-Change in the description of things.

Example:

Regarding salat there is a hukam that if someone has blood on his body or clothes and if it is less than a dirham its ok to pray with the blood.

But there is difference in the description of the size of dirham.

-Dirham is the size of the cave in palm.

-Dirham is the size of the digit of thumb.

-Dirham is the size of first digt of middle finger.

-Dirham is the size of first digit of index finger.

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13- Some hadith were said due to Taqayah.

Some say a particular hadith was said during Taqayah while others say it was not.

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14-Hadith with different background.

These rawayat are present in front of the Mujtahid but he has no information on the background.

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Above are some of the reasons why it is so difficult for scholars to give fatwa and why they may have different fatwas on the same issue.

It should be observed that the existence of differences in scientific opinions is not to be taken as a sign of a substantial defect in the quest for knowledge and a reason for abandoning it altogether. It is, rather, a sign that knowledge moves in progressive steps towards perfection. Differences of opinions are to be found in all sciences, not just in fiqh. There may, for example, be more than one opinion about the therapy for a particular patient's disease, and all of these opinions may be superseded later on by the development of new methods of dealing with that disease. Thus these observations can be seen to be relevant not only to differences between the opinions of contemporary scientists but also to historical differences, and all these differences should be regarded as signs of the dynamism within a science and stages to be passed in its route to perfection.

It should be remembered that the Mujtahid formulates his opinions after pushing his research and study as far as he can. That is all that is expected of him, for he is neither inerrant nor an Alim bil-ghayb (knower of the unseen). So, even if the Mujtahid's fatwa is not actually in agreement with Allah's real command, neither he will be punished on the Day of Judgment for having issued the fatwa, nor will his Muqallid (follower) for having acted according to it, for both will have done what was commanded of them and what was humanly possible for them to do.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Lastly, ghina includes singing, music etc everything.

Can you please provide hadith(s) giving the definition of ghina?

BTW, the video you posted sounded like any other singing/music video to me.

So what was in that video is haram to listen to?

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

BroOrion

Can u provide conflicting ahadis in the matter of music.

oR any other knowledgeable member?

Ya Ali Madad

[Bhooka_Bhairiya]

Can you please provide hadith(s) giving the definition of ghina?

Honestly speaking I've not come across any ahadith defining ghina unlike the taudhihul masails of maraji which do tend to include some definition. Perhaps this is so because in those days there just didn't exist so many different types of music(jazz, rap, pop, classical, hip hop etc) so there wasn't a question of this "halal" and "haram" music. Anyhow, I'll post a a hadith which may shed some light on this.

Kafi:

The prophet(PBUH) ordered that recite Qur'an in the simple tone/manner of the Arabs. Do not recite it in the manner of ahlul fisq and kabair. After me will come nations that will recite it in the manner of ghina(singing/music), nooh(crying/sorrowful tune?) and rahbaniya(monkish/sufish style?). Qur'an won't go down their throat and they and those who like this their hearts would be bent.

So basically as you can see in the hadith, the rules regarding ghina and its like are very strict. Even the Qur'an has to be recited simply and even reciting it in manners which are not exactly ghina(nuh, rahbaniya) is not allowed. This doesn't leave any room for current nasheeds, latmiya etc. Again, there may be some exceptions of course(as in some nasheed etc maybe OK, I hardly ever listened to any of them so can't say which ones). But that's how it is in general. Just putting an islamic label such as "nasheed" on something doesn't automatically make it halal.

So what was in that video is haram to listen to?

I didn't really watch the whole video, but from the starting the "music" that I heard just sounded like any other music to me i.e. it didn't sound like "not music" to me. Again, as the hadith shows things resembling music aren't allowed either. So there's no room for people to speculate "oh this doesn't really sound like music", if there's doubt that it may be music then that itself proves that it's not OK to listen to it.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Bhooka_Bhairiya

[zeinabiyya]

By the way, any of you still wondering about this topic, don't listen to the guy above me. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Go check what your specific marja' says about the issue, what his fatwa is. It is either that no musical instruments can have been used or that it cannot have been the type that is used in gatherings, parties, for entertainment, etc.

wa